Death Delver, the why and the who?

[Darth Stabber]

So I have been reading through heroes of horror again lately, and I must say that I really like the death delver prestige class, but what actual good is the class, and what classes actually benefit from it. It requires base willsave +2, concetration8, heal2,know(religion)4, so relatively easy reqs for bards monks and divine spellcasters, but it has a seperate spell progression, making bad for the casters, and it doesn't complement the wide variety of weird crap that monk does. Who's this prc for, and what is it supposed to do?

[Coidzor]

Its use seems to mostly be shouldering the onerous burden of a spellcasting level being set on fire in order to get rebuking attempts... But that can't really be what the designers intended for it... probably... & dread necromancer works better for that anyway if one wanted rebuking for rebuke attempts alone anyway, since it lacks pre-reqs.

So... I must admit, I'm rather curious as well.

[WinWin]

It's for melee centric campaign where the casters do not waste time healing or buffing the beatsicks.

So...They die a lot and learn to buff themselves. Eventually this makes them really scary and gives them power over undead and junk. Their capstone is that they can't die..sort of. The monsters just need to keep hitting them for a few rounds, or 1 round tops if they have multiattack.

Solid spell list though. FoM, Enervation, Break Enchantment. Restoration at level 1...Archivist loves this list.

Ranger or Paladin looking to expand their abilities could do a lot worse than entering this class. Making concentration a prerequisite is just hillarious. No love for the fighter.

[Amphetryon]

So I have been reading through heroes of horror again lately, and I must say that I really like the death delver prestige class, but what actual good is the class, and what classes actually benefit from it. It requires base willsave +2, concetration8, heal2,know(religion)4, so relatively easy reqs for bards monks and divine spellcasters, but it has a seperate spell progression, making bad for the casters, and it doesn't complement the wide variety of weird crap that monk does. Who's this prc for, and what is it supposed to do?

Paladin loves this class relative to what "benefits" one gets for staying in Paladin past level 5 - which is arguably too long to stay in Paladin, unless going SotAO or Prestige Pally. It can be an amusing choice for a melee build with a Hexblade dip as well.

[dextercorvia]

Solid spell list though. FoM, Enervation, Break Enchantment. Restoration at level 1...Archivist loves this list.

Lesser actually. I don't see anything on this list that Archivist wouldn't have gotten at that level already.

FoM -- Cleric
Enervation -- Hunger Domain
Break Enchantment, Lesser Resoration -- Paladin

[Psyren]

Lesser actually. I don't see anything on this list that Archivist wouldn't have gotten at that level already.

FoM -- Cleric
Enervation -- Hunger Domain
Break Enchantment, Lesser Resoration -- Paladin

This. And if you can find "Death Delver scrolls" in an actual campaign, you pretty much have Magic Mart anyway and don't need them.

[WinWin]

Lesser actually. I don't see anything on this list that Archivist wouldn't have gotten at that level already.

FoM -- Cleric
Enervation -- Hunger Domain
Break Enchantment, Lesser Resoration -- Paladin

Divine Crusader...I forgot about them making domain spells part of divine spell lists.

I guess Deep Slumber & Rigor Mortis is it.

And noone buys Death Delver scrolls. Chameleon scrolls on the other hand...

[Douglas]

Divine Crusader...I forgot about them making domain spells part of divine spell lists.
Huh? Just plain old Cleric is plenty for getting domain spells on a divine list.

[WinWin]

I had thought there was some technicality that while Domain spells were available to clerics, they are not technically on the spell list of clerics or any other divine caster (barring Divine Crusader).

So they are Divine (sometimes arcane), but only available if you have the relevant domain. Which is only relevant if you have domain spells that are not on the cleric list. They can only be prepared in a domain slot (some feat exceptions) and not prepared as though they were spells on the cleric list.

Divine Crusader makes this moot due to the way they prepare spells. This is really only relevant to the way archivists obtain divine spells (such as scrolls from cleric with the specific domain spell you want, or scrolls from other divine casting classes, like Chameleon). Hope that clarifies things. Sorry for the derail.

[dextercorvia]

I had thought there was some technicality that while Domain spells were available to clerics, they are not technically on the spell list of clerics or any other divine caster (barring Divine Crusader).

So they are Divine (sometimes arcane), but only available if you have the relevant domain. Which is only relevant if you have domain spells that are not on the cleric list. They can only be prepared in a domain slot (some feat exceptions) and not prepared as though they were spells on the cleric list.

Divine Crusader makes this moot due to the way they prepare spells. This is really only relevant to the way archivists obtain divine spells (such as scrolls from cleric with the specific domain spell you want, or scrolls from other divine casting classes, like Chameleon). Hope that clarifies things. Sorry for the derail.

There is some weirdness with the way it is written, but they can still be made into scrolls by clerics with the appropriate domain.

[Telonius]

The capstone seems to indicate that it's for people trying to directly model Nodwick.

Otherwise ... a Paladin trying to get Freedom of Movement on his spell list? Duelist trying to make up for the fact that he's going to get killed often?

[Pechvarry]

I always wanted to use Death Delver just to get Profane Lifeleech on a good-aligned character. Not awesome, just neat and flavorful.

[Darth Stabber]

I am tempted to say that monk is the target audience, they might as well be be crappy at a few more things, eh? The only time I have ever used it, it was an npc, in Ravenloft (where the players play themselves). Warlock5/fighter2/DeathDelver4, not optimized by any stretch, he was a man dumped into ravenloft many years before the party, and has been trying to determine whether or not escape is possible through death, after his own near death experience, helping his friends from his homeworld escape. The player eventually find that Outlander guide is me (or rather the me that lived in ravenloft, and could not escape, but allowed his friends to get out in a "you shall not pass" moment). God that champaign is soooo much fun.

[Fax Celestis]

So I have been reading through heroes of horror again lately, and I must say that I really like the death delver prestige class, but what actual good is the class, and what classes actually benefit from it. It requires base willsave +2, concetration8, heal2,know(religion)4, so relatively easy reqs for bards monks and divine spellcasters, but it has a seperate spell progression, making bad for the casters, and it doesn't complement the wide variety of weird crap that monk does. Who's this prc for, and what is it supposed to do?

Try swordsage/death delver/ruby knight vindicator. Or incarnate/death delver/sapphire hierarch.

EDIT: You could even go binder/death delver/tenebrous apostate, but it'd be really weird.

[Big Fau]

Or incarnate/death delver/sapphire hierarch.


Law Domain is required. You'd need Sacred Exorcist and Divine Oracle levels before you could do that, and the spell list doesn't exactly help Incarnates (never mind low spells per day).

[Thurbane]

Death Delver is a class I really like fluff-wise, but other than a dip to get Rebuking, it doesn't fit that well with most base classes. You can make a decent melee type using the class if you can meet the reqs (you can use the rebukes to fuel Domain feats). The capstone is pretty cool, as well.

[dextercorvia]

Law Domain is required. You'd need Sacred Exorcist and Divine Oracle levels before you could do that, and the spell list doesn't exactly help Incarnates (never mind low spells per day).

How does that help you get the Law domain? Were you referring to the Contemplative?

[Person_Man]

There's a whole slew of 7/10 BAB, half casting classes with their own spell list and mediocre class abilities. The lack of full BAB means nerfed Power Attack. Their spells are almost always less powerful then what a Sorcerer or Favored Soul of the same level could do. They're virtually all unplayable after ECL 15, when their spells stop scaling. And they often just suck rocks in general.

Other then Chameleon, can anyone else think of an exception to the above statement?

[WinWin]

Suel Arcanamach. Nar Demonbinder. Mortal Slayer. Off the top of my head. They all possess decent class abilities though.

[Big Fau]

How does that help you get the Law domain? Were you referring to the Contemplative?

Indeed I was. My bad.

[Person_Man]

Suel Arcanamach. Nar Demonbinder. Mortal Slayer. Off the top of my head. They all possess decent class abilities though.

Meh, I've never been big on Suel Arcanamach. You get some spells from a fairly broad list, but you really can't do anything unique or interesting, and you're still weaker and less versatile then most other casters, including lower Tier options like the Bard, Beguiler, Wu Jen, etc.

I think Nar Demonbinder is unique in that it has a really weird spell progression.

I assume you mean Mortal Hunter, since I've never heard of Mortal Slayer. This guy is a clear exception. The ability to Polymorph as a Supernatural Ability pretty much makes anyone a Tier 2 class. But he's 3.0.

[dextercorvia]

Sublime Chord is half casting (the good half) and only 1/2 BAB. It gets kicked around for certain builds :smallbiggrin:

Chedder aside, what the Chameleon has going for it is an incredibly broad spell list, and a mechanic for not leaving CL in the lurch. Even played without Master Spellthief or CL advancing PrC's it's going to get a base CL of 20 just like the full casters.

Sublime Chord has that going for it as well. Of course it also has 9th level spells. The rest of these classes, like Death Delver, are missing both of those. They get a couple of nice spells (or not) and a CL of 10.

[Pechvarry]

There's a whole slew of 7/10 BAB, half casting classes with their own spell list and mediocre class abilities. The lack of full BAB means nerfed Power Attack. Their spells are almost always less powerful then what a Sorcerer or Favored Soul of the same level could do. They're virtually all unplayable after ECL 15, when their spells stop scaling. And they often just suck rocks in general.

Other then Chameleon, can anyone else think of an exception to the above statement?

While true about the drop-off, I feel this sentiment is misleading. They're as "unplayable" as a warmage or a warblade with every stone dragon maneuver. Their casting is worthless next to a wizard, but it's still better than 7 feats and crappy class features (hi, Paladin). They're really only unplayable in a "tier 1, everyone knows how to play Batman" campaign.

Note, I'm speaking on the topic of self-contained spell list classes, not the Death Delver in particular (which really does have horrid class features). I like the idea of a death delver RKV build.

[Big Fau]

In all honesty, the main draw of the Death Delver is obsolete because of a 50K ring in the MiC and the Divine Crusader PrC.

[Psyren]

Well, I like the art.

And apparently WotC did too, because they recycled it in 4e :smalltongue: (Adept of Whispers, Divine Power.)

[Big Fau]

Well, I like the art.

And apparently WotC did too, because they recycled it in 4e :smalltongue: (Adept of Whispers, Divine Power.)

They recycle a lot of art actually. One of the Paragon Paths in Martial Power uses the Frenzied Berserker artwork, but the PP isn't based on the FB at all IIRC.

[Psyren]

They recycle a lot of art actually.

Thank you, that was the joke.

[WinWin]

Yeah I meant mortal hunter, mortal slayer is the feat they require right?

The only reason I touted suel aracanamach is because they are a warrior class which can self buff fairly effectively. They have class features that make their spells slightly more durable as well as providing them with some thematic benefits. Better than a wizard? no. I would place them above a core Ranger or Paladin in terms of power though.