Ziegander
2011-06-14, 05:18 AM
In an effort to improve mundane combat, I find myself having difficulty with the concept of Iterative Attacks. Specifically, with respect to Two-Weapon Fighting and Natural Attacks.
Any A 1st level Kobold (RotD) gets two Claw attacks and one Bite in a full attack, the Claws at his highest base attack bonus, and the Bite at -5 from his base attack bonus (the same penalty as Iteratives).
A Dextrous 1st level warrior with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, wielding a Longsword and a Shortsword, gets two attacks in a full attack, both at his highest base attack bonus -2.
Any 6th level warrior gets two attacks in a full attack, with any weapon, gets two attacks in a full attack, the first at his highest base attack bonus, the second at -5 from his base attack bonus.
Now, these are the standard rules, and even though TWF really sucks it also heavily devalues the concept of Iterative Attacks, while Natural Attacks destroy the concept. I'd like to divorce the Iterative Attack concept from base attack bonus a little bit and apply it more uniformly across these options.
I don't have any ideas yet for making this work with Natural Attacks, but for TWF, for example, what if anyone could pick up a second one-handed weapon and, without needing any feats, make an attack with it at the flat -5 "iterative penalty" to attack rolls? No looking up on the chart what your penalty is based on weapon size, etc, you just hold a second weapon and attack at -5. Not sure what the TWF feat would do at that point (reducing the penalty to -2 could work, probably in addition to granting the ability to make both attacks as a standard action), but that's one thought.
What if the iteratives gained as a result of BAB, not only cap at a -5 penalty (for a routine of +20/+15/+15/+15) as is a common idea, but also were added to a standard action attack routine? So a 1st level Kobold Fighter with Str 18 might swing in for Claw +5 (1d3+4), Claw +5 (1d3+4), and Bite +0 (1d3+2) as a full round action, but a 6th level Goliath Fighter with Str 22 swings in for Greatsword +12 (2d6+9), Greatsword +7 (2d6+9) as a standard action.
How about the Primary/Secondary attacks angle? Perhaps that could be used more uniformly across the board. Unarmed Strike could be the default primary attack of a Humanoid, but an armed Humanoid could treat its equipped weapon as its primary attack and its Unarmed Strike as its secondary. Then the term "Iterative Attack" could be used to refer to any attacks made above and beyond a creature's primary attack routine. In these model primary attacks are always made at full base attack bonus, while only secondary, iterative, attacks take the -5 penalty. All primary attacks might even be able to be made as a standard action while a full attack allows any secondary or tertiary (and so on) attacks to be made. Not sure how TWF (or multi-weapon fighting as the case may be) would work under this model, perhaps additional weapons are added as secondary, tertiary, etc attacks unless you have the Two-Weapon or Multi-Weapon Fighting feats and use multiples of the same weapon. So, a 1st level Human Fighter with Str 18 could pick up a Longsword and a Flail and make a standard attack with whichever he calls his primary weapon at +5 to hit, or he could make a full attack with them both at +5/+0. If the same Fighter took the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and instead picked up two Battleaxes he could make a standard attack with them both at +5/+5. A 1st level Thri-Kreen Fighter with Str 18 could wield a Longsword, a Scimitar, a Morningstar, and a Rapier and make a full attack with them all at Primary +5/Secondary +0/Tertiary -5/Quaternary -10, or with the Multi-Weapon Fighting her could wield four Longswords and make a standard attack with them all at +5/+5/+5/+5, OR pick up a couple torches and a couple Shortswords for a full attack at Primary +5/+5; Secondary +0/+0.
That's a lot of thoughts, so I'll keep it at that for now. What do you think is best? Do you have any other ideas that might work out better than the ones I have above?
Any A 1st level Kobold (RotD) gets two Claw attacks and one Bite in a full attack, the Claws at his highest base attack bonus, and the Bite at -5 from his base attack bonus (the same penalty as Iteratives).
A Dextrous 1st level warrior with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, wielding a Longsword and a Shortsword, gets two attacks in a full attack, both at his highest base attack bonus -2.
Any 6th level warrior gets two attacks in a full attack, with any weapon, gets two attacks in a full attack, the first at his highest base attack bonus, the second at -5 from his base attack bonus.
Now, these are the standard rules, and even though TWF really sucks it also heavily devalues the concept of Iterative Attacks, while Natural Attacks destroy the concept. I'd like to divorce the Iterative Attack concept from base attack bonus a little bit and apply it more uniformly across these options.
I don't have any ideas yet for making this work with Natural Attacks, but for TWF, for example, what if anyone could pick up a second one-handed weapon and, without needing any feats, make an attack with it at the flat -5 "iterative penalty" to attack rolls? No looking up on the chart what your penalty is based on weapon size, etc, you just hold a second weapon and attack at -5. Not sure what the TWF feat would do at that point (reducing the penalty to -2 could work, probably in addition to granting the ability to make both attacks as a standard action), but that's one thought.
What if the iteratives gained as a result of BAB, not only cap at a -5 penalty (for a routine of +20/+15/+15/+15) as is a common idea, but also were added to a standard action attack routine? So a 1st level Kobold Fighter with Str 18 might swing in for Claw +5 (1d3+4), Claw +5 (1d3+4), and Bite +0 (1d3+2) as a full round action, but a 6th level Goliath Fighter with Str 22 swings in for Greatsword +12 (2d6+9), Greatsword +7 (2d6+9) as a standard action.
How about the Primary/Secondary attacks angle? Perhaps that could be used more uniformly across the board. Unarmed Strike could be the default primary attack of a Humanoid, but an armed Humanoid could treat its equipped weapon as its primary attack and its Unarmed Strike as its secondary. Then the term "Iterative Attack" could be used to refer to any attacks made above and beyond a creature's primary attack routine. In these model primary attacks are always made at full base attack bonus, while only secondary, iterative, attacks take the -5 penalty. All primary attacks might even be able to be made as a standard action while a full attack allows any secondary or tertiary (and so on) attacks to be made. Not sure how TWF (or multi-weapon fighting as the case may be) would work under this model, perhaps additional weapons are added as secondary, tertiary, etc attacks unless you have the Two-Weapon or Multi-Weapon Fighting feats and use multiples of the same weapon. So, a 1st level Human Fighter with Str 18 could pick up a Longsword and a Flail and make a standard attack with whichever he calls his primary weapon at +5 to hit, or he could make a full attack with them both at +5/+0. If the same Fighter took the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and instead picked up two Battleaxes he could make a standard attack with them both at +5/+5. A 1st level Thri-Kreen Fighter with Str 18 could wield a Longsword, a Scimitar, a Morningstar, and a Rapier and make a full attack with them all at Primary +5/Secondary +0/Tertiary -5/Quaternary -10, or with the Multi-Weapon Fighting her could wield four Longswords and make a standard attack with them all at +5/+5/+5/+5, OR pick up a couple torches and a couple Shortswords for a full attack at Primary +5/+5; Secondary +0/+0.
That's a lot of thoughts, so I'll keep it at that for now. What do you think is best? Do you have any other ideas that might work out better than the ones I have above?