Sneak Attack Clarification

[Avalon2099]

I ran a small encounter tonight, and I had to players play Rogues that flank with each other, and they did some ridiculous damage, something to the tune of 5 attacks with Haste/TWF/ITWF at level 9, now do they get the 5D6 sneak attack damage on every attack? or just once per turn? Im running it by Pathfinder rules but would like clarification on the difference from 3.5 to Pathfinder.

Thanks in advance.

[Feytalist]

RAW states that you add sneak attack damage to every attack made where the target is flat-footed, denied his Dex bonus or flanked. So yeah, as long as the target is flanked, every attack gets SA bonus damage. That's one of the main attractions to TWF rogue builds.

If it bothers you, throw an undead or fourteen at them. Or anything with fortification.

[Avalon2099]

Oh I must admit at first I was perturbed but if its RAW then Im okay with it, I will have to use more undead and Constructs though lol... thanks for the timely response.

[ArcoSan]

Undead, constructs, oozes and enemies with uncanny dodge shut down rogues...

But other than that it is a rogues moment in the sun... if you are using a battleboard you can simply have enemies work in a box formation... that way none of them can get flanked although they may not be as effective...

Mind you the same does not apply for an attack from "invisible"....

So for example if battle has started and the rogue is hidden or invisible and starts his round next to his target and goes for full attack only the first attack will be sneak since then he appears for the remaining attacks...

[Yuki Akuma]

Technically if enemies were in a box formation the enemies on the corners would be flankable.

[ArcoSan]

How come?

In order to flank you must be adjacent to your opponent (or have reach).

So in the below example

E
G XX
G XX
GAPG E

You are saying that the Es are flanking?

[Feytalist]

XXE
XY
E

Y is flanked.

Edit: above sounds slightly snarky, but it was honestly the easiest way to say it. Should have probably put a smiley in there somewhere.

:smallsmile: there ya go.

[The Random NPC]

Pathfinder increases the type of monsters rogues can sneak attack, specifically Undead and Constructs at least can be sneak attacked.

[ArcoSan]

Yea I guess you are absolutely right in that case. I got confused since I dont have the board in front of me :D.

So we end up back in the old traditional solution... keep your back on the wall and form a line :D

[Cerlis]

yes thats the main difference between sneak attack and sudden strike (ninja, and a few other prestige classes). Flanking. so sneak attack is more powerful (this is no doupt why the mindblades low amount of dice per level is justified, since he can use its ability on anything with a mind regardless of flanking or Flat footed).

So a rogue's SNeak attack is more valuable than sudden strike, its not an even trade off.

Rogue-precision damage Flanking, flat footed, with all attacks- Main flaw-requires discernable anatomy. ineffective vs Constructs, undead, oozes, and some other creatures
NInja/Suddenstrike PrC- Precision damage Flat footed. With all attacks as long as enemy is flat footed- Main flaws-Has to supprise enemy, requires discernable anatomy
Scout-Precision damage-requires Scout to move at least 20 feet-works on all attacks. Main flaws- its hard to get more than one attack and move 20 feet in same turn, precision damage requires discernable anatomy
Mindblade-Mental damage-requires charged mind blade as a move action-usable on all creatures with a mind-Main flaws-Move action makes it hard to charge mind blade more than once per turn, so bonus damage once per turn-many creatures immune to sneak attack are mindless so just as many enemies are immune as sneak attack


FIrstly, its NEVER a good idea to outright a nerf players just cus they know how to play. HOWEVER, there is a middle ground between "Do nothing" and "Make your monsters designed to be immune to your PCs"

a few things to remember
-Flanking sneak attacks require melee, remember to make your monsters think like monsters. If a big scary monster (or tactile fighter) suddenly gets flanked by two rogues who know what they are doing, hes going to move (intelligently, such as using tumble), or move aggressively (Bull rushing or overrunning one of the rogues) or deal with the threat directly (such as attacking one of the rogues, or even grappling one)
this is not a nerf as anyone who has a mind is going to either avoid a threat or deal with a threat. Sneak attack represents stabbing you in organs, weak spots, eyes, groins, joints ect. No one EVER ignores that (unless they are a BAMF!). Do not let them learn this by getting one shotted. done right this will teach em that they have great power if they use it right, but they cant let themselves be sitting ducks. they will need to defend themselves, rely on their allies to get them out of bad situations, and learn to send their damage where it is most needed (which brings us to our next topic
-encounters with different threats. except for trash (in which your PCs are allowed to own face) you should put thought into many encounters. one way to add difficulty is twofold. find monsters that are big but dumb. Be they giants, or constructs (or large undead) and anything large (but not necessarily powerful. think T-rex)They have plenty of hit points, damage reduction to soak up Damage (in the case of non constructs the rogues will still do damage, that is merely reduced by DR or whatenot) that can pick up the rogues and use em like a toy. It will essentially be that slow lumbering ogre fight like in lord of the rings:fellowship of the ring. Sneak attacks (arrow to the eye) where effective. Flanking was effected, they all had to play smart, but it was a simple fight.
The other way is to have different creatures. Making a room guarded by 2 golems is a bad idea, at least compared to the room being guarded by a cultist (a wizard or cleric a level or two below the PCs) a big (think lotsa hit points, slow and stupid) golem and a few fiendish hounds. you could have many scenarios. The fighter might distract the golem while the rogues deal with the hound and caster neutralizes the cultist. or the rogues go tag team the cultist while the caster controls the hounds and buffs the fighter to take out the golem. or caster distracts the -dumb- construct with illusions while the melee split up the others.
-another thing to remember is enviroment. Put those skill checks to good use. some ruins with collapsed towers and walls to hope over or under, perhaps he has haste or the bad guy(s) have good skills themselves and keep running and sniping. give them a chance to close in with good skill checks. Make sure to give something for other members to do such as take care of mooks, or be ready for when the boss guy teleports from one rune away from the rogues to another with the fighter waiting, or check out your casters spell list so you know what kinda fights he can completely neutralize and what will be challenging but perfect for his spells known (for instance a fly spell will help them all manuever around ruins, but it will still be challenging if the bad guys can hide under stuff and duck into caves)
-further one thing to remember is to make those precise hits you need good illumination. I'm pretty sure anything you can make a hide check in you cant make a sneak attack in. Monsters defending themselves with darkness, or it just being an enviromental happenstance would make it challenging. For instance it could be to dark to sneak attack, but they know if they ambush em they can fire a light and see well enough to deal some precision damage.


----------------

[Yora]

E
G YX
G XY
GAPG E

Assumed one of E has 10 feet reach, would Y be flanked?

[Yuki Akuma]

Assumed one of E has 10 feet reach, would Y be flanked?

Yes.567890

[Cerlis]

dont those count as having cover and thus cant be flanked by reach weapons?

[Person_Man]

You may wish to consider that your PC's have just discovered one of the most obvious and weakest combos in 3.X D&D. Specifically, Rogues are squishy, their damage output is lower then the damage output of most other combos, it includes no battlefield control, it does not involve an iterative or infinite loop, tons of enemies are immune to it, and it requires actual teamwork. Considering all of that (especially the teamwork part) it should be encouraged, not nerfed.

[Psyren]

567890

The char limits make us say silly things :smalltongue:

And are we really trying to hose rogues now? Let them have their fun, they'll be smeared on the tarmac soon anyway.

In other words, what Person_Man said.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, anything with Improved Uncanny Dodge laughs at their pathetic attempts at flanking...

And do keep in mind that you have a pair of people with a d6 HD in melee range with something big and nasty, and were there the previous round, in order to get full TWF attacks... the question should be 'why didn't the big bad nasty thing turn them into a greasy stain last turn'?

[Pink]

Just a note so that its not missed, but the list of sneak attack immune creatures is reduced in pathfinder to basically oozes, elementals, and incorporeal undead. Constructs and corporeal unread are fair game. There's still concealment to deny rogues sa though.

[raxies94]

You may wish to consider that your PC's have just discovered one of the most obvious and weakest combos in 3.X D&D. Specifically, Rogues are squishy, their damage output is lower then the damage output of most other combos, it includes no battlefield control, it does not involve an iterative or infinite loop, tons of enemies are immune to it, and it requires actual teamwork. Considering all of that (especially the teamwork part) it should be encouraged, not nerfed.

I agree. They shouldn't be nerfed just because they figured out this combo. Just get creative with the kind of enemies they face and the kind of tactics they use and that should keep them on their toes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For that matter, next time one of 'em tries to set up flanking position, one or the other of 'em gets hit. Hard. They'll get the idea pretty quickly. They only have a d6 HD, after all...

[Curmudgeon]

dont those count as having cover and thus cant be flanked by reach weapons?
Yes, they've got soft cover. Cover grants the defender a bonus to Armor Class, but doesn't prevent flanking. However, flanking has limits.
flank

To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character. A flanking attacker gains a +2 flanking bonus on attack rolls against the defender.
E
G AB
G CD
GAPG F

If E and F both threaten at reach and adjacent to them they'll threaten all four enemies (A, B, C, D). However, the "directly opposite" requirement means they'll each only flank one enemy. E threatens and flanks A (but only threatens, not flanks, B/C/D), and F flanks D (but not A/B/C).

[Keld Denar]

You're basically saying that you can't flank with a reach weapon (or any reach at all, including natural reach)? Cause that's wrong. There is no requirement of being adjacent WRT to flanking.

[Flame of Anor]

You're basically saying that you can't flank with a reach weapon (or any reach at all, including natural reach)? Cause that's wrong. There is no requirement of being adjacent WRT to flanking.

No, the problem with the above scenario isn't that you can't flank at reach--it's that reach doesn't threaten adjacent, so nobody's flanked at all, unless one of the rogues has a non-reach weapon (or a spiked chain).

[Keld Denar]

No, the problem with the above scenario isn't that you can't flank at reach--it's that reach doesn't threaten adjacent, so nobody's flanked at all, unless one of the rogues has a non-reach weapon (or a spiked chain).
But it was asked what if one of the flankers had reach.


Assumed one of E has 10 feet reach, would Y be flanked?

If E threatens A and F threatens A with reach, than A would be flanked. If E didn't also have reach (say, lacking natural reach or a spiked chain), then D would NOT be flanked. A would still be flanked though. If B, C, an D didn't exist, and everything else was exactly as it is, A would be flanked. As Curmudgeon stated, soft cover doesn't prevent flanking, so A would be flanked regardless, assuming, as I stated, that E threatens A where he is, and F threatens A with some form of reach.

[Curmudgeon]

There is no requirement of being adjacent WRT to flanking.
No, you don't have to be adjacent. But you can't be separated by another character because then you're directly opposite that character, and only indirectly opposite the non-adjacent one.

[hangedman1984]

Scout-Precision damage-requires Scout to move at least 20 feet-works on all attacks. Main flaws- its hard to get more than one attack and move 20 feet in same turn, precision damage requires discernable anatomy

small correction, scouts have to move at least 10 ft, not 20

[Curmudgeon]

small correction, scouts have to move at least 10 ft, not 20
20' is the minimum for Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel).

[Avalon2099]

You may wish to consider that your PC's have just discovered one of the most obvious and weakest combos in 3.X D&D. Specifically, Rogues are squishy, their damage output is lower then the damage output of most other combos, it includes no battlefield control, it does not involve an iterative or infinite loop, tons of enemies are immune to it, and it requires actual teamwork. Considering all of that (especially the teamwork part) it should be encouraged, not nerfed.

Oh no worries, I was just taken aback when they did it the first time and started rolling 25D6 each, I wasnt used to it I guess, as I normally run low level games but rarely does anyone play a Rogue in any high level games I play in.

I am NOT nerfing them in the least, I actually ended up running the encounter wrong as the 2 Drow Barbarians actually had Improved Uncanny Dodge, but hindsight is always 20/20. Instead what I had the Drow Priestess do is toss a Circle of Death at those two, followed by a confusion, that largely worked.

[Avalon2099]

Though I do have a slightly offtopic question that might affect how the combat was played.

Haste, now as most of my gaming group and fellow DMs in the area interpret it. That the 30 feet of extra granted movement doesn't count towards determining whether one can take a full round action.

Example: Player A (Hasted) moves 30 feet of (Hastes) effect to an enemy and unleash 4 attacks.

Now I have a nagging suspicion that this is not how it works but cannot seem to convince my fellow players or DMs to take a second look at it. perhaps some of you more knowledgeable playgrounders could help a brother out?


All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

[Avalon2099]

Thirdly, on attacks of opportunity, I understand clearly that when leaving a threatened square without taking a 5 foot step, one generally provokes an attack of opportunity, the example of the Scout in a previous post with the Skirmish ability, do creatures not get attacks of opportunity when they run around IN a threatened creatures square?

[Zherog]

Though I do have a slightly offtopic question that might affect how the combat was played.

Haste, now as most of my gaming group and fellow DMs in the area interpret it. That the 30 feet of extra granted movement doesn't count towards determining whether one can take a full round action.

Example: Player A (Hasted) moves 30 feet of (Hastes) effect to an enemy and unleash 4 attacks.

Now I have a nagging suspicion that this is not how it works but cannot seem to convince my fellow players or DMs to take a second look at it. perhaps some of you more knowledgeable playgrounders could help a brother out?


All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Your hunch is correct. It increases their existing speed by 30 feet; it does not grant a free move action.


Thirdly, on attacks of opportunity, I understand clearly that when leaving a threatened square without taking a 5 foot step, one generally provokes an attack of opportunity, the example of the Scout in a previous post with the Skirmish ability, do creatures not get attacks of opportunity when they run around IN a threatened creatures square?

A scout provokes normally whenever he/she leaves a threatened square.

[Greenish]

Haste, now as most of my gaming group and fellow DMs in the area interpret it. That the 30 feet of extra granted movement doesn't count towards determining whether one can take a full round action. Haste increases your speed, but you'd still have to take a move action to actually move. Haste only means that a single move action can take you farther, but it doesn't allow you to take both a move action and a full round action at the same turn.

This is assuming 3.5 Haste, the might be stuck to 3.0 Haste.

[Keld Denar]

Haste doesn't work like that. It increases your speed by 30, it doesn't give you a free 30' movement action. If you don't take a move action (or other action that includes movement, like a Charge), then the extra movement speed doesn't benefit you. The old 3.0 Haste used to give an extra partial action, which could be used to move as you described, but its not like that anymore. You are either moving, at which point you can move up to 30' extra, or you aren't moving.

And yes, if a person runs around inside of your threatened area, each square they are leaving is a threatened square. Fortunately, movement can only provoke 1 AoO per round per foe, no matter how many squares you leave. Thus, if you were adjacent to someone and started strafing around them clockwise, the first square you leave would provoke an AoO. From that point on, you are free to dance circles around them unhindered until you run out of movement speed. Its with regard to EACH square, not all of their threatened squares together.

[SamBurke]

If it bothers you, throw an undead or fourteen at them. Or anything with fortification.

Actually, in Pathfinder, Undead are NOT immune to crits and Sneak Attacks.

Think about it: you just shoot the zombie's head. Boom. Critical.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Your hunch is correct. It increases their existing speed by 30 feet; it does not grant a free move action. This is the correct answer. it increases the distance you can move with your Move Action, it does not give you another one.




A scout provokes normally whenever he/she leaves a threatened square.

Although most scouts invest heavily in Tumble to avoid this