Best class for getting tons of minions?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yes, I want your opinions. What class is the absolute best for obtaining tons and tons of minions, both pre and during epic? I know, I know, "thrallheard" but without an epic progression they fall flat on their face at having minions at epic, espcially since I don't think they can use legendary commander and epic leadership tables on thrallheard.

So, I ask, what in your opinion is the best class both pre epic and epic to obtain tons of flunkies? Dread Necromancer for lots of undead? Necro Cleric? Enchantment-specalist dominator Wizard(Or Sorc)? Diplomancer Bard? Something else?

[CTrees]

Sheer quantity? Gotta be a diplomancer. Epic diplomacy/bluff -> the entire plane is fanatically devoted to me is kinda hard to top.

Quality? Well, any build that can pull off chain-gating shenanigans is a baseline, and if your DM is amenable to that, that's fairly easy. I don't know enough about minion optimization to meaningfully weigh in on Dominate v. Rebuke v. Craft Construct v. etc.

No mention of Malconvoker? I'm not sure *how* great it really is in the high-op dog shows, but it's at least entertaining.

[Doug Lampert]

Yes, I want your opinions. What class is the absolute best for obtaining tons and tons of minions, both pre and during epic? I know, I know, "thrallheard" but without an epic progression they fall flat on their face at having minions at epic, espcially since I don't think they can use legendary commander and epic leadership tables on thrallheard.

So, I ask, what in your opinion is the best class both pre epic and epic to obtain tons of flunkies? Dread Necromancer for lots of undead? Necro Cleric? Enchantment-specalist dominator Wizard(Or Sorc)? Diplomancer Bard? Something else?

Any full caster with Command Undead (and possibly animate dead) on their spell-list. Then learn to chain-spell, twin spell, extend spell, and every other "extra targets" or "extra duration" cheeze you can find that doesn't cost money. Also, boost your caster level as high as you can.

Also consider commanding undead with their own minions.

Seriously, it's a level 2 spell which is STRONGER than the level 9 Dominate Monster vs. unintelligent undead and STRONGER than the level 4 Charm Monster against intelligent undead.

Remember that you can always load a higher level slot with a lower level spell.

Sorcerer works reasonably well for this, all those extra spells are usable for this, and if you don't re-dominate your unitelligent minions till the duration is about to expire then you can still fight effectively if you have to.

If animating your own undead remember to do so in a permanently desecrated area, a level 5 Cleric can raise a 20HD undead with +2 HP/HD. If you can't animate dead the first time you kill a 10 headed hydra or something similar then PAY SOMEONE to do it for you and then take command with your spells. Spellcasting service prices are in the rules.

Edited to add: Yeah, diplomancer is also good, level 2 or higher human or half-elf bard for the win. Chain gating takes to long and is sure to be nerfed by any actual GM (as is diplomancer for that matter once he realizes what you can do).

DougL

[Darth Stabber]

Dread necro certainly has a telent for it, especially given the following
-a wide variety of undead making spells.
-Rebuke Undead on a charisma based class.
-has control pool of CL*(4+cha) instead of just 4*CL.
-charisma base makes leadership or undead leadership that much better.
-free improved familiar.
While you could likely out do it with some very strong cheese, DN comes out of the box with a several big advantages. Legendary leader probably doesn't work with undead leadership, but if it did you still wouldn't take it, since it gives you no caster levels.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I was talking more alone the lines of both quanity(Hence tons in the title) and also duration of keeping them....hence why I never mentioned maleconvoker. Summons are strong minions, yes, but they only stay around for so long while undead minions, diplomanced followers and dominated thralls all can stay under your command indefinetly.(Though in the case of thralls doing so takes some creative timing of dominate person casts.)

Also "any caster class with command undead" dose not work here. In the case of "caster classes with command undead" Dread Necro wins the award for most undead minions ever, has command undead and sorc-level spell slots, making it strictly better then the sorc at the "lots of undead" thing. Therefore, the answer in that case would not be "ANY caster class with command undead" but rather, "Dread Necomancer" since we all know that sorcs and wizards suck horridly at necromantic minionmancy even with command undead. Undead army building is better left to Clerics and Dread Necromancers.

[The Shadowmind]

Artificer is good at making minions. While the constructs cost more per unit, they are usually stronger than the default undead. Template Stacked Small Effigies are efficient for high Str and Dex minions. And since the Artificer is very good with UMD and item creation, getting Animate dead and further wouldn't be hard, though at little more expensive than simply casting the spell.

[Johel]

What kind of level are we talking about, too ?

Let's review the different options so far, realistically :

Diplomacers are just theory.
No sane DM would let you just charm a whole city with a few words.
Or he would at least ask you to actually roleplay the part.
And I doubt you can always come up with the right stuff.
Go for it only if your DM is cool with it.

Necromancers have that tiny disadvantage that followers have to be dead.
This means finding corpses.
Evil characters won't have problem with that.
The neutral or good ones will.
Go for it only if you don't mind RP an outcast.

Enchantment Wizards have the problem that their spells are mind-affecting.
We all know the limits of those.
Nothing can ruin your day like an opponent casting "Protect Against X" on the very dominated dragon you are proudly riding...
Also, duration can still be an issue.
Go for it only if you like keeping options open.

Even though it's not the best, I like the Enchantment Wizard for its versatility.
A good trick is to dominate a monster with a charm or dominate at-will ability.
Like a Succubus... or a Balor, if you really feel secure.

[CTrees]

I was talking more alone the lines of both quanity(Hence tons in the title) and also duration of keeping them....hence why I never mentioned maleconvoker. Summons are strong minions, yes, but they only stay around for so long

Gotcha. I wasn't sure. Battling TO pet builds is... way beyond the level of discussion to which I can meaningfully contribute.

[dextercorvia]

Probably Aristocrat.

If it is undead you are referring to, Chameleon can do it better. The DN is required to stay single classed to fully benefit from Undead Mastery. This puts them at ~(4+12)X20 = 320 HD (18+5Inherant+5Level+6Item)from Animate Dead at 20th level. He will not benefit from CL boosts.

A Chameleon with bloodline levels can get a base CL of 80 without trying very hard. Using the conservative view of Bloodlines that they count toward ECL I get:

Bard1/Spellthief1/Wizard3/DreadNecro1/Chameleon8/Beguiler1/GreenStarAdept1/SublimeChord1/Bloodline3 has a CL of :

2*(4+4+6+4+11+4+4+8)+4 = 94.

Now we can take into account feats like Arcane Thesis, Spell Thematics, Fiendish Power, and traits like Spellgifted to get that up to 100 or so, for an easy 400HD of Animated Undead.

I didn't try too hard on Rebuking level, but that is 15 without modification. So you get a 5HD edge there, but it isn't going to matter.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but that build is absurdly complex and is more or less nothing but a bunch of dips + Chameleon. I asked what CLASS is best for getting minions, not what string of dips with a PrC is best at getting minions. I may like to play characters who have a bit of optimization/are not underpowered but there is a point where I find a build to absurd and complex to justify RP-wise, and no offense, but your idea is one of them.

Also, while Dread Necro is the best at undead minions, do any of you think that the Death Master from the Dragon Compendium is on par with a cleric at the least? I made a thread asking that but it has been woefully ignored, so I may as well ask here, too.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, but that build is absurdly complex and is more or less nothing but a bunch of dips + Chameleon. I asked what CLASS is best for getting minions, not what string of dips with a PrC is best at getting minions. I may like to play powerful characters but there is a point where even I find a build to absurd and complex to justify RP-wise, and no offense, but your idea is one of them.

I took 8 of the 10 levels of the class. If I finished it, it would only drop my CL by 8, which still beats DN. It's not my fault that my class is so awesome it does in 8 levels what yours wants to do in 20. No offense, but you didn't stipulate that we needed to justify any of this RP-wise.

Although, a Chameleon who has dabbled in just about every arcane class kinda makes sense to me. Maybe play it up with a Fey Bloodline.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Still, if I want to play a Necromancer I want to play, well, a necromancer...not some werid shifty fey guy who just happens to be able to animate the undead. A few PrCs are fine, but what you have made is essentually an Omnicaster who's nothing but a PrC and like three + dips. Not to mention that before you hit the PrC you'll be horrendiously UNDERPOWERED as we all know having higher level spells is better then having a crapton of lower level spells and until you hit the PrC you'll be crying when batman already has black tentacles and your still stuck casting sleeps and color sprays.

Also...still no word on the death master? Man, people must really hate that class...or maybe it's just that obscure?

[dextercorvia]

When Batman gets Black Tentacles, I'll be casting Haste from 1st level slots, and blowing **** up with my CL of 28.

[Ravens_cry]

Make sure your DM and other players are OK with you playing as a minion theurge. D&D just does not handle large amounts of combatants, they really slow down the game.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Still dose not change the fact that it's painful as all heck to play through before you hit Chameleon and that it has absolutly NO RP to it at all. It's only unifiying theme is power, thats it. There is absolutly no justification for those combinations beyond power, although on an evil character power may be enough IC justification. Also, isn't green star adapt a non-evil thing? I kinda want my minion-master to be EVIL...as who else would want tons of minions but an evil overlord?

If you can find a way to make the build work on an evil character then we can talk, as the crazy-ness of that combination could just be justified as "Because I'm a power-hungry *******." Without evil(and even with it) it is just a totally odd combination and the only way I could even justify it would be to just "combind" all the abilites into a "psudo-class," call myself something like an "omnicaster"....and even then the build is still retardicilous on the RP front and since it's such high OP I doupt many DMs would allow it....Oh, and there is kinda the fact that it is based on a liberal reading of specific rules which also may not fly with some DMs. After all, with "liberal readings" I can have my sorcerer or wizard cast spells from ANY spell list, among other cheese.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, for theoretically unlimited minions, Pale Master wins. With his capstone ability, you get faithful minions that do not count against your control cap.

So, Dread Necro/Pale Master.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I suppose that would work. Your Undead Mastery ability will be weaker but a Dread Necro 8/Pale Master 10 will at least still have 8 levels worth of adding his Cha-modifier to his HD. Also I am fairly confident that I would be able to convince a DM to allow undead mastery to work off caster level as appose to class level, which when combind with Pale Master would make the Dread Necro even scarier, and since he already has plenty of class features geared towards melee the Pale Master's "out of place" melee-based powers would be a better fit here. Also, I would still get Advance Learning meaning that General of Undeath, Awaken Undead ect.. are still fully obtainable.

My rebuking would not be all that great but with command undead I don't really need great rebuking anyway.

Also, still no word on whether or not the Death Master can match the cleric on minionmancy terms?

[mootoall]

Two things I wanna argue here:

Firstly, who says that a necromancer has to be either evil or an outcast? Do you know how many creatures a Good party slaughters in an adventuring day? A lot. More than enough for animation to be a possibiltiy.

Secondly, if you're gonna argue a "One spell that makes people win at everything minionmancy forever," I'd point out Animate Dread Warrior, which does the Pale Master's capstone but without the ****ty class attached to it.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, and who's best at using that spell? Dread Necromancers! While it's a wizard/sorc spell, Dread Necros use advance Learning to pick it up and since the DN is an arcane caster they, just like a wizard, can spellstitch..and in all honesty Animate Dread Warrior is better off as an SLA anyway. Yes, those mean old clerics who like to go around stealing the best stuff from other classes can get animate dread warrior via divine magician, but they CAN'T ever spellstitch themselves...so to get it as an SLA they would need a spellstitched undead leadership cohort or an arcane minion to do it for them....so when it comes to animate dread warrior the DN is still the best platform since he can spellstitch easier then a divine caster could but also, unlike the necro wizard, dose not suck at undead animation.

Oh, and the best part about spellstitching it as an SLA? You can have more then one spellstitched dread warrior factory...the cleric will only ever have one if he lacks an arcane cohort.

[dextercorvia]

Still dose not change the fact that it's painful as all heck to play through before you hit Chameleon and that it has absolutly NO RP to it at all. It's only unifiying theme is power, thats it. There is absolutly no justification for those combinations beyond power, although on an evil character power may be enough IC justification. Also, isn't green star adapt a non-evil thing? I kinda want my minion-master to be EVIL...as who else would want tons of minions but an evil overlord?

If you can find a way to make the build work on an evil character then we can talk, as the crazy-ness of that combination could just be justified as "Because I'm a power-hungry *******." Without evil(and even with it) it is just a totally odd combination and the only way I could even justify it would be to just "combind" all the abilites into a "psudo-class," call myself something like an "omnicaster"....and even then the build is still retardicilous on the RP front and since it's such high OP I doupt many DMs would allow it....Oh, and there is kinda the fact that it is based on a liberal reading of specific rules which also may not fly with some DMs. After all, with "liberal readings" I can have my sorcerer or wizard cast spells from ANY spell list, among other cheese.

Green Star adept has no alignment issues. The character must be non-lawful(Bard) and non-good(Dread Necromancer). If you want Evil flavor, switch from Fey bloodline to Red Dragon, which are just as fickle, and much more Evil.


True, and who's best at using that spell? Dread Necromancers! While it's a wizard/sorc spell, Dread Necros use advance Learning to pick it up and since the DN is an arcane caster they, just like a wizard, can spellstitch..and in all honesty Animate Dread Warrior is better off as an SLA anyway. Yes, those mean old clerics who like to go around stealing the best stuff from other classes can get animate dread warrior via divine magician, but they CAN'T ever spellstitch themselves...so to get it as an SLA they would need a spellstitched undead leadership cohort or an arcane minion to do it for them....so when it comes to animate dread warrior the DN is still the best platform since he can spellstitch easier then a divine caster could but also, unlike the necro wizard, dose not suck at undead animation.

Oh, and the best part about spellstitching it as an SLA? You can have more then one spellstitched dread warrior factory...the cleric will only ever have one if he lacks an arcane cohort.

Clerics with the spell domain have Arcane spellcasting ability, and can therefore stitch themselves.

[Godskook]

All 10 lvl prestige classes can get an epic-progression by *RAW*, and there's guidelines for what each is suppose to look like. Letting thrall herd progress onto the epic-leadership table seems like an obvious choice, too.

[Set]

Clerics with the spell domain have Arcane spellcasting ability, and can therefore stitch themselves.

I have no idea how optimal it ends up being, but if I were going to go Cleric, I'd go neutral cleric of Obad-Hai (Rebuke Undead, Domains - Earth, Fire) and get extra Domains, as possible, so that I can rebuke other elemental subtypes or plant creatures or even oozes or reptiles (if using SKR's updated domaiins list for Greyhawk dieties (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/we/greyhawkdeities.html) on his website, which adds the Scalykind and Slime Domains).

Adding Improved Turning and a Phylactery/Amulet of Turning, Sceptre of the Netherworld and Flametouched Holy Symbol (which you can find on the Turning Guide (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872990/Comprehensive_Guide_to_Turning)), you can get your effective cleric level to around +9 past your base level, and command either a lot of, or some really big individual, undead, fire creatures, earth creatures, air creatures, water creatures, plants and / or oozes. (Not that 'fire creatures' includes stuff like Efreeti and Red Dragons, both of which have the [fire] subtype.)

Strap on Leadership, whatever level of Diplomacy your Cha score can accomodate, and the judicious use of Planar Ally, and you can field quite the horde.

As long as you are going to have at least three, if not more (if you can swing extra domains without losing domain progression), sources of turn/rebuke attempts, check which feats allow you to play with them for alternative uses (like Dragonfire Channeling, which can be pretty fun when you have 18 or so Turn/Rebuke attempts per day to fuel it).

Always keep a level-draining undead handy, for when you run into that gorgeous creature that happens to be a HD too high to be rebuke/commanded. One good 'zark' from Mr. Wraith, and that Pyrohydra can be yours!

[Analytica]

A Chameleon with bloodline levels can get a base CL of 80 without trying very hard. Using the conservative view of Bloodlines that they count toward ECL I get:

Bard1/Spellthief1/Wizard3/DreadNecro1/Chameleon8/Beguiler1/GreenStarAdept1/SublimeChord1/Bloodline3 has a CL of :

2*(4+4+6+4+11+4+4+8)+4 = 94.

I don't understand this. Is this based on Master Spellthief setting all your arcane caster levels to whatever they and spellthief sum to?

Even so, doesn't that just give you a caster level of 18-20 in each of the separate classes, which would provide a separate control pool for each class capable of animating undead?

[Endarire]

Simulacrum, ice assassin (Frostburn 97), and planar binding provide long-term minions subject to DM limitations. Remember, a Half-Fiend or Half-Celestial anything is an Outsider and can be bound if it's in the HD limits.

[Veyr]

I don't understand this. Is this based on Master Spellthief setting all your arcane caster levels to whatever they and spellthief sum to?

Even so, doesn't that just give you a caster level of 18-20 in each of the separate classes, which would provide a separate control pool for each class capable of animating undead?
First, a Chameleon's Caster Level is equal to twice it's class level. On its own, this is fine: it's a 10-level PrC and most spells have CL caps on them anyway.

Second, bloodlines advance CL per class. Thus, with Bloodline 3, you're getting a +3 CL bonus per class.

Third, Master Spellthief makes your Caster Level in each Arcane class equal to the sum of the Caster Levels from all classes. For a Spellthief/Wizard, this just means both have full CL, but when you start multiply-advancing things, it gets horribly wonky (a simple Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 1/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 10 with Practiced Spellcaster in each has CL 35 in each class at ECL 15).

[dextercorvia]

Actually Master Spellthief stacks class levels of arcane spellcasting classes for determining CL.

So, to your chameleon level you add 3 for bloodline, and class level +3 for each of your ASC's, then multiply by two. The +8 is because you get to add Sublime Chord twice. The extra +4 at the end is from the GSA's ability which adds class level to caster level.

@OP I meant to say earlier, that this is no way a liberal interpretation of the bloodline rules. I used the most conservative reading of RAW that I have seen.

[Thurbane]

Firstly, who says that a necromancer has to be either evil or an outcast? Do you know how many creatures a Good party slaughters in an adventuring day? A lot. More than enough for animation to be a possibiltiy.
Well, pretty much all the 3.5 books are in agreement that animating the dead is an unequivocally evil act. The Animate Dead and Create Undead spells even have the Evil descriptor. Barring DM handwaving, or a very open minded society, trotting around with hordes of rotting, animated corpses in tow isn't going to sit well with the average citizen.

You can certainly play a neutral or good "socially acceptable" necromancer, but by RAW that requires steering clear of animating the dead and probably other spells with the evil descriptor. I've seen compelling arguments to houserule or handwave away the evil stigma attached to Animate Dead, but this is firmly in the DMs territory.

[Urpriest]

Once you're in Epic, Summoning pulls ahead. Each permanent summon you can get via Epic Spellcasting increases your ability to summon additional minions exponentially, since they can contribute spell slots.

Diplomancy still beats it, but with moderate prep time nothing else will.

[dextercorvia]

I made a miscalculation earlier. Adding both missing levels of Chameleon will cost me CL12. I get 6th level spells at Chameleon 9, though, and that will only cost me CL6.

[Darth Stabber]

Still, if I want to play a Necromancer I want to play, well, a necromancer...not some werid shifty fey guy who just happens to be able to animate the undead. A few PrCs are fine, but what you have made is essentually an Omnicaster who's nothing but a PrC and like three + dips. Not to mention that before you hit the PrC you'll be horrendiously UNDERPOWERED as we all know having higher level spells is better then having a crapton of lower level spells and until you hit the PrC you'll be crying when batman already has black tentacles and your still stuck casting sleeps and color sprays.

Also...still no word on the death master? Man, people must really hate that class...or maybe it's just that obscure?

Death master < Dread Necromancer after level 7, atleast at minion making. Before level 5, death master is the only game in town. At 5 cleric rules the roost from there on, but it does not win on numbers, and neither does death master. Dread necromancer has a big bonus to it's undead control cap, and it is the only rebuking class that is primarily charisma dependant.

[dextercorvia]

Dread Necro is tops for Low-Op Minion-necromancy. You would have to ignore significant class features to miss that.

I still think Aristocrat has them all beat.

[Thurbane]

I still think Aristocrat has them all beat.
Just curious - Aristocrat for a particular reason, or any class with the right social skills?

[Analytica]

Actually Master Spellthief stacks class levels of arcane spellcasting classes for determining CL.

So, to your chameleon level you add 3 for bloodline, and class level +3 for each of your ASC's, then multiply by two. The +8 is because you get to add Sublime Chord twice. The extra +4 at the end is from the GSA's ability which adds class level to caster level.

@OP I meant to say earlier, that this is no way a liberal interpretation of the bloodline rules. I used the most conservative reading of RAW that I have seen.

Hmmm... so if bloodline levels count as class levels for the classes they add to, then they add to the "class levels of arcane spellcasting classes" that sum to set your CL. Yes.

But is Chameleon even an arcane spellcasting class? Its spellcasting ability explicitly says it doesn't qualify for anything. Even if it is, what number of class levels of an arcane spellcasting class does a Chameleon 8 get? It doesn't have more than eight levels, unless bloodline levels under the above assumption increases it.

Even then, its caster level by itself should be double its number of Chameleon levels (plus bloodline contribution, then also doubled), not double the caster level it receives from Master Spellthief.

To me, it seems the build

Bard1/Spellthief1/Wizard3/DreadNecro1/Chameleon8/Beguiler1/GreenStarAdept1/SublimeChord1/Bloodline3 then has a CL of :

(4+4+6+4+22+4+4+8)+4 = 60.

... which is still high though. But the bloodlines text says:


Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

Can really number of class levels in an arcane spellcasting class be considered a "character ability based ... on class levels"? If it is not, then the computation instead yields a CL of:

(1+1+3+1+16+1+1+4)+4+3=35

as the caster level increase from GSA certainly is a character ability based on class levels, and then the casting ability increase from bloodlines is added to each casting class after that. Still high, though.

However, the above isn't legal - Chameleon explicitly cannot meet prerequisites with its spellcasting, and Sublime Chord requires third level spells. Even then, as a Sublime Chord, your "number of levels in an arcane spellcasting class" for Sublime Chord is no higher than your Sublime Chord level - its caster level is what is higher. From that I would say that you get (discounting that SS prerequisites are not met):

(1+1+3+1+16+1+1+1)+4+3=31

and if then the "number of class levels in an arcane spellcasting class" for Chameleon is considered to be the numbers of Chameleon you have (interpreting it as an arcane spellcasting class), it becomes:

(1+1+3+1+8+1+1+1)+4+3=23

I would even argue that levels in Chameleon are, in fact, not levels in an arcane spellcasting class, so the sum would become

(1+1+3+1+1+1+1)+4+3=16

Going completely by RAW, it could get worse - Sublime Chord states that your caster level for all arcane spellcasting classes is set to the sum of your levels in SS plus one other arcane spellcasting class. Taking Wizard for that, you would actually have a CL of:

3+1+4+3=11

for all your spellcasting classes, unless it is made higher than that from some other source. Master Spellthief, in turn, adds together your number of levels in all spellcasting classes and sets your caster level for all of them to that, so:

(1+1+3+1+1+1+1)+4+3=16

... making your CL for arcane spellcasting classes either 11 or 16. That last part is an actual CL calculation, so you get to choose the most beneficial value there. For Chameleon casting, either arcane or divine, you could also choose the even higher value:

2 * (8+3)+4=26,

so I guess that is what I would allow when DM:ing. CL 16 for everything but Chameleon, CL 26 for Chameleon, again barring the fact that the SS prerequisites are not met.

(You are under no obligation whatsoever to agree with me here, of course. I may have missed some crucial part or interpreted things incorrectly. I just wanted to clarify to myself how I think it works. :smallredface:)

[dextercorvia]

Just curious - Aristocrat for a particular reason, or any class with the right social skills?

The right social skills, connections, status in the world. The best way to have minions is to be born with them. Basically, it is the GM connection.

[Analytica]

I was in fact wrong above. Both Master Spellthief, Chameleon caster level and SS caster level are abilities based on class levels. Sorry. :smallredface:

Then... MS-derived calculation:

(4+4+6+4+4+4+4)+4=34 for all arcane caster levels

Chameleon calculation:

2*(8+3)+4=26 for divine spells, taking 34 instead for arcane aptitude

SS-derived calculation:

(6+4)+4=14

(I hope.)

[Darth Stabber]

I have no idea how optimal it ends up being, but if I were going to go Cleric, I'd go neutral cleric of Obad-Hai (Rebuke Undead, Domains - Earth, Fire) and get extra Domains, as possible, so that I can rebuke other elemental subtypes or plant creatures or even oozes or reptiles (if using SKR's updated domaiins list for Greyhawk dieties (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/we/greyhawkdeities.html) on his website, which adds the Scalykind and Slime Domains).


Wow, I realize that this is a pure rules discussion, but there is no way in the abyss that obad-hai would consider granting that cleric spells ever again after one day of his clergy attampting to create an undead horde. Obad-hai may be neutral, but not in the "I don't care" way thaat baccob is. Obad-Hai's followers will generally destroy undead on sight as an affront to nature. He hates the walking dead as much as Pelor. Baccob, on the other hand does not give a crap.

[dextercorvia]

I was in fact wrong above. Both Master Spellthief, Chameleon caster level and SS caster level are abilities based on class levels. Sorry. :smallredface:

No problem. It's a lot to string together, and I've been thinking about it for a while. To answer one of your questions, I'm using Versatile Spellcaster on the Wizard casting to qualify for Sublime Chord. I'd be happy to explain anything else.

For the Chameleon part: It can't be used to qualify for things, but it can benefit from them. When you are in Arcane Focus, you have the class ability to cast arcane spells, which makes you an Arcane Spellcaster.

I've seen Curmudgeon agree to this (or the reverse for Divine) in the Q&A by RAW thread here recently. A class like Human Paragon could advance Chameleon casting.

[Thurbane]

The right social skills, connections, status in the world. The best way to have minions is to be born with them. Basically, it is the GM connection.
Cool - I have an NPC in my game world that is an Aristocrat/Legendary Leader for pretty much exactly those reasons.

[Analytica]

No problem. It's a lot to string together, and I've been thinking about it for a while. To answer one of your questions, I'm using Versatile Spellcaster on the Wizard casting to qualify for Sublime Chord. I'd be happy to explain anything else.

OK, that is RAW correct. Probably not RAI (I can't imagine the designers intended for heightened spells to count for prerequisites), but it is RAW.


For the Chameleon part: It can't be used to qualify for things, but it can benefit from them. When you are in Arcane Focus, you have the class ability to cast arcane spells, which makes you an Arcane Spellcaster.

Reading it again, I can't say that you are wrong - while you are in that focus, and only then, the class has that ability and thus the levels (8 of them though, not 16) would actually count as arcane spellcasting class levels...

Then... MS-derived calculation:

(4+4+6+11+4+4+4+4)+4=45 for all arcane caster levels

Chameleon calculation:

2*(8+3)+4=26 for divine spells, taking 45 instead for arcane focus

SS-derived calculation:

(6+4)+4=14


I've seen Curmudgeon agree to this (or the reverse for Divine) in the Q&A by RAW thread here recently. A class like Human Paragon could advance Chameleon casting.

That should indeed follow. Similarly, you could advance it by arcane or divine spellcasting classes, but they would only apply when focused.

[dextercorvia]

OK, that is RAW correct. Probably not RAI (I can't imagine the designers intended for heightened spells to count for prerequisites), but it is RAW.

Since Wizards can scribe any spell into their book, you don't have to heighten it. Just add some 3rd level spells, and then you can use 2nd level slots to cast them.

[Coidzor]

Necromancers have that tiny disadvantage that followers have to be dead.
This means finding corpses.
Evil characters won't have problem with that.
The neutral or good ones will.
Go for it only if you don't mind RP an outcast.

You're an adventurer. Corpses find you. :smallamused:


Also, while Dread Necro is the best at undead minions, do any of you think that the Death Master from the Dragon Compendium is on par with a cleric at the least? I made a thread asking that but it has been woefully ignored, so I may as well ask here, too.

As Wizard with earlier access to Animate Dead & maybe some other stuff in exchange for greater scroll dependency for new spells known from what I've seen in the threads discussing them.


I kinda want my minion-master to be EVIL...as who else would want tons of minions but an evil overlord?

Any kind of character that's supposed to be a leader?
:smallconfused:
What, Leadership is an evil-only feat now?

[Vulaas]

The Yathrinshee would be another great dip for a necromancer build, as it adds your Divine and Arcane caster level together for CL on your necromancy spells. Combining that with that Chameleon from earlier would be...Unsettling, especially if you also deigned to use Divine Metamagic and persistent Greater Consumptive Field. Just use a Savage Progression Drow so you don't have to bother with the level adjustment.

[dextercorvia]

The Yathrinshee would be another great dip for a necromancer build, as it adds your Divine and Arcane caster level together for CL on your necromancy spells. Combining that with that Chameleon from earlier would be...Unsettling, especially if you also deigned to use Divine Metamagic and persistent Greater Consumptive Field. Just use a Savage Progression Drow so you don't have to bother with the level adjustment.

Is that Drow only? Cause that's going to wreck the whole Chameleon thing.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yes, it is drow only, and also requires you to worship an obscure Farrune deity who's name I forget. It is also notorious for being a really bad PrC.

[Necroticplague]

I think soul eater could suffice, since the undead you get from level draining someone to zero last forever, and themself have the ability to create spawn (the same way you do). Their isn't any cap that I'm aware of, and is usable without any casting. Gets harder to do as you go up against higher level opponents, though.

[Epsilon Rose]

Bard1/Spellthief1/Wizard3/DreadNecro1/Chameleon8/Beguiler1/GreenStarAdept1

I seem to recall bloodlines having some requirement pertaining to what level they must be taken (or at-least started) before.

[dextercorvia]

I seem to recall bloodlines having some requirement pertaining to what level they must be taken (or at-least started) before.

This is an out of order stub. It would go something like:

Spellthief1/Wizard1/Bloodline1/Wizard+2/Chameleon1/Bloodline+1/.....

It was much simpler to write the totals.

[Urpriest]

I think soul eater could suffice, since the undead you get from level draining someone to zero last forever, and themself have the ability to create spawn (the same way you do). Their isn't any cap that I'm aware of, and is usable without any casting. Gets harder to do as you go up against higher level opponents, though.

How are you controlling the minions?

[prufock]

Bard1/Spellthief1/Wizard3/DreadNecro1/Chameleon8/Beguiler1/GreenStarAdept1/SublimeChord1/Bloodline3 has a CL of :

2*(4+4+6+4+11+4+4+8)+4 = 94

I would dispute this calculation, based on both RAW and interpretation. My reasoning:


So, to your chameleon level you add 3 for bloodline, and class level +3 for each of your ASC's, then multiply by two. The +8 is because you get to add Sublime Chord twice. The extra +4 at the end is from the GSA's ability which adds class level to caster level..

First, Chameleon specifically states that you multiply your Chameleon class level by 2 to get caster level. Adding Bloodline we get (8+3)*2= CL 22. The result of Master Spellthief is caster level, not class level, therefore it shouldn't be multiplied by 2. This is RAW, and brings us down to 49 already.

Secondly, I believe you've actually added GSA twice in this calculation, inside the parentheses and out of it. It should only be added once, so we're down to 45.

Third, I believe the Sublime Chord ability for adding one other spellcasting class level results in CL, which doesn't apply to MS, so SC should only be counted once. This brings us to 41.


Master Spellthief makes your Caster Level in each Arcane class equal to the sum of the Caster Levels from all classes.

Emphasis mine. I think dextercorvia cleared this up, but Master Spellthief adds together your class levels, not your caster levels.

Now, getting into the interpretive part of it, which is more difficult to prove. The relevant text:


Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

My interpretation of this suggests that your total caster level should only be 20.
Sum of spellcasting class levels (1+1+3+1+8+1+1) + 1 for Green Star Adept + 3 for Bloodline = 20.
Nothing in the text suggest to me that you would add the bloodline level to each class for purpose of MS. It only says you "include the character's bloodline level" for the purposes of calculating, and my calculation certainly includes the bloodline level. It is still true that "each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels" in my calculation as well.


@OP I meant to say earlier, that this is no way a liberal interpretation of the bloodline rules.
:smallamused: Obviously I'm a little more stingy with caster levels.

[Vulaas]

Yes, it is drow only, and also requires you to worship an obscure Faerun deity who's name I forget. It is also notorious for being a really bad PrC.

It is a horrible PRC, but for a 1 level dip it does phenomenal things. Also, qualify via Racial Immersion feat with Changeling.

[Necroticplague]

How are you controlling the minions?

Beats me, but Soul Slave specifically states that the wights created are under the control of the soul eater. I would assume you control them in the same way that creatures with create spawn that have control do (the soul eater's abilities seem to be be based off a wight).

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but doesn't that class basically require you to take a monstrous race and thus have some nasty LA? I am not a fan of suffering LA...so yeah. Maybe it would work on a more melee-focused build who uses his monster-ness to down enemies as appose to putting it on a caster-type? I am not familiar with that class all that much, so yeah.

If the class uses Cha at all perhaps throw some diplomancy and leadership into the pot for even more minions? Heck, on the melee soul-eating monster build you can even use that feat that gives strength to leadership as a way to further increase the amount of minions you have...and if we're forgoing casting power here we may as well slap on legendary leader, just for kicks. Perhaps if there is some cha abilities in soul eater a good entry would be crusader for some maneuvers and cha-based class features?

Of course, I am not very familiar with this class, so if these are all horrible build ideas please, tell.

[Necroticplague]

Yeah, but doesn't that class basically require you to take a monstrous race and thus have some nasty LA? I am not a fan of suffering LA...so yeah. Maybe it would work on a more melee-focused build who uses his monster-ness to down enemies as appose to putting it on a caster-type? I am not familiar with that class all that much, so yeah.

If the class uses Cha at all perhaps throw some diplomancy and leadership into the pot for even more minions? Heck, on the melee soul-eating monster build you can even use that feat that gives strength to leadership as a way to further increase the amount of minions you have...and if we're forgoing casting power here we may as well slap on legendary leader, just for kicks. Perhaps if there is some cha abilities in soul eater a good entry would be crusader for some maneuvers and cha-based class features?

Of course, I am not very familiar with this class, so if these are all horrible build ideas please, tell.

From the fluff, you might need to be highly monstrous, thus suffering from high LA. From the crunch view, you only need to be nonhumanoid (monstrous humanoid will do), easily +0 LA, even easier if you except +1 LA. Elan? You qualify. Necropolitan? You qualify.Feral? You qualify. The class is completely without any relation to charisma, and is, in fact, usually the kind where you end up dumping charisma. You have to hit with a touch attack in melee (I think, the wording is fairly unspecific as to how it's draining works), and your a front line fighter, so you want STR,CON, and DEX. It has a BAB requirement, so having it be part caster is a fairly bad idea. You do make a good point for Might Makes Right, though.

[Urpriest]

Beats me, but Soul Slave specifically states that the wights created are under the control of the soul eater. I would assume you control them in the same way that creatures with create spawn that have control do (the soul eater's abilities seem to be be based off a wight).

Ah, I'd missed that ability. That does indeed work. Still beat handily by Diplomancers and Exponential Epic Spellcasters though. :smalltongue:

[Maho-Tsukai]

I see, not exactly the minion-master I was looking for, but interesting none the less. As for a good non Dread Necro, non-wisdom dependent minionmaster necro build somebody in another thread suggested a Cloistered Cleric 1/Death Master 19, taking Deathbound and Evil as your cleric domains, the latter making up for the CL loss from the cleric dip for the purposes of undead animation(Animate Dead IS an [evil] Spell, after all.). You only need 11 wisdom, which is perfectly RP-able for me(it's when it gets high that it becomes and issue RP wise) and your no worse then a cleric would be at necromancy except for rebuking, at which your one level behind the cleric and that's not much.

You have everything the cleric has that makes him good at necromancy. Rebuke, Deathbound Domain, Desecrate and Animate dead early on(and you STILL get it faster then the cleric, even WITH the CL loss.). Heck, due to having one cleric level you even can use general of undeath via wand or some other, similar means. You also have all the inflict spells via the death master list, as well as slay living, destruction, harm and a few other cleric exclusive spells. Oh, and you have the entire wizard/sorc list at your fingertips too, meaning your a great caster necro and a great animator....Seems like this build works well for my "non-wis dependent tier 1 Necromancer" since it is on par with the cleric in terms of animation and has all the tricks of the necro wizard.

[Darth Stabber]

This just reminds of a remark from my own gaming table.

The psion's player says to the dread necro's player, "I think you missed a memo, we're playing D&D, You're playing Pokemon".

[dextercorvia]

Secondly, I believe you've actually added GSA twice in this calculation, inside the parentheses and out of it.

I did. In my haste, I treated it like an Arcane Spellcasting class. I should have only added it outside the parenthesis. Rather, I should have chosen a different class. Say, Sorcerer, which only drops my total by 4.

As for the rest, I don't believe you are reading Master Spellthief or the Bloodlines correctly. If you want to discuss it further, we can take it outside. As much as I love giving Maho trouble in his undead loving threads, I don't want to derail it (further).

@Maho -- I think in a high-op game, the trouble might be that minionmancy just isn't Tier1. There is a lot you can do with world domination, but it doesn't beat a paranoid Wizard.

[Darth Stabber]

@Maho -- I think in a high-op game, the trouble might be that minionmancy just isn't Tier1. There is a lot you can do with world domination, but it doesn't beat a paranoid Wizard.

To be fair, what does? For most, paranoia is a symptom of mental illness, for a wizard it's a class feature. Though the d4 hit die certainly doesn't help.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but rueling the world is still awesome, and the necromancer can do it easier then any paranoid wizard can. The necromancer just needs to build an undead horde if he wants to take over. Meanwhile Mr. Wizard will need to either wait until he's epic and gets epic spellcasting, in which case "Dominate Person, Global" is actually a feesable option for him or he's strong enough to pull a DBZ and solo all the kingdoms in the world. He COULD do it before epic, but to do so he would need to come up with a highly convoluted plan involving the use dominated leaders, twisting political power structers, manipulating countless people and events, pulling Xantos Gambits out his *** like no tomorow and perhaps you begging the DM to let him discover a magical McGuffen that will aid in his Aizen-level ridicilous scheme....


So why go through all that when you can just slowly assemble an undead legion to take over the world with half the trouble?

[dextercorvia]

So why go through all that when you can just slowly assemble an undead legion to take over the world with half the trouble?

Because you tip your hand that way, and some paranoid wizard sends an adventuring party after you.

[Maho-Tsukai]

That dose not stop you from defeating said adventurers. Chances are you're pretty high level anyway if your looking to assemble a world-conquering undead army and if you use Cleric 1/Death Master X as your build you have acsses to every spell the paranoid wizard dose so long as you can get said spell in written form. Take leadership(A good idea for a global conquerer anyway) and make your cohort a wizard. Have your wizard minion learn all the wiz/sorc spells you want, borrow his spellbook, record all the spells into your own spellbook and now you can be batman too. They say the best thing to fight a wizard is another wizard, and a Cleric 1/Death Master X IS essentually another wizard...who happens to have better necromancy slapped on for good measure. So using the death master build you're actually in a prime position to fight enemy arcaneists.

A Dread Necromancer, on the other hand, could have some issues, espcially being a tier 3 to the wizard's tier 1. In the case of the Dread Necro I will admit, the wizard has him beat, hands down. However, the Cleric 1/Death Master X or pure cleric both could deal with a paranoid wizard, the former by himself being a paranoid wizard with better necromancy and the latter by also being a tier 1, fullcaster with his own brand of magical might.

[Necroticplague]

Because you tip your hand that way, and some paranoid wizard sends an adventuring party after you.

Then you kill them, put a little extra money into making them (or use your personal create spawn ability), and now you have minions with class levels that are actually useful (as long as your willing to spring for them being intelligent undead).

[Coidzor]

That reminds me of a thought I once had. How would one best go about attracting NPC adventurers that were strong enough to be worthwhile minions but not strong enough to be a serious threat? :smallconfused:

[Darth Stabber]

He COULD do it before epic, but to do so he would need to come up with a highly convoluted plan involving the use dominated leaders, twisting political power structers, manipulating countless people and events, pulling Xantos Gambits out his *** like no tomorow...

What else are you going to do with a 36 int, access to divinations of all sorts, and 31 flavors of time manipulation? A ppw (properly paranoid wizard) already has a series of 10,000 contingent effects ready to go off if somebody thinks bad things about him.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but that still dose not change the fact that necromancer has it totally easier as far as world domination goes pre-epic. Taking over the world pre-epic would take an army. For the necromancer, making an army is easy. All he needs are some corpses and a crapton of black onyx. For the wizard? MECHANICALLY he has ABSOLUTELY NO way to make an army of any kind, meaning to build an army he has to either steal it from somebody else(dominate person on a king/emperor/ruler being the usual means to do this.) or rely on the DM actually considering making your character's goal matter in-game and allowing you to raise an army the old fashion way. However, there is NO mechanics for the latter and it is TOTALLY AND UTTERLY reliant on the DM. Not that Necromancy dose not face the same issue(As the DM can deny you corpses and/or onyx or just flat out say no.), but it DOSE actually have a mechanical basis, which in turn makes it an easier method to get approved by a DM since your actually asking to do something totally within your character's powers....unlike the wizard who has no mechanical abilities that can allow him to form an army.

Also, to raise an army the old fashion way a wizard would need to actually have a good charisma score so he can convince people to join him, and he would also most likely need a good diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and perhaps even intimidate check. Charisma is almost always a dumb stat for wizards and they have none of those skills as class skills. So yeah. Pre-Epic, the Necromancer just has it SO much easier when it comes to world domination while the wizard is hardly in any position to take over anything without boatloads help from the DM/what Naruto fans like myself call "Plot no Jutsu". Of course in epic levels everything changes as you can just pick up epic spellcasting, make "Dominate Person, Global(Or EVEN BETTER, Mind Rape, Global) and take over the planet with one spell. If epic spellcasting is banned? Then you just solo the planet, DBZ style, because at epic wizards are just that strong. Before epic, though, the Necromancer has the wizard thoroughly beat at the world domination game

[dextercorvia]

Am I missing something? How many HD of Undead can your Undead Master control? I'm not a necromancy afficianado, but we came up with 300-400 HD of animated undead from either Dread Necro (which has a sweat class ability UM is missing) or Extreme CL cheese. Up to 20 HD or so can come from Rebuking (but you dipped to get that, so 1 HD).

This is way too many for a regular DnD game, but it's not really an army that I would want to stand behind in my quest for World Domination.

[Maho-Tsukai]

That's how much they can obtain with just Animate Dead and Rebuke. With spawning tricks and/or animate dread warrior the Necromancer can have a potentially infinite-sized undead army, though to get a world conquering legion would be a slow process, but still totally feasible mechanically. You may have to fight off some doo-gooder NPC adventurers who seek to stop you before you can grow your legion to that size but as high level teir 1 caster that's no issue for you.

[dextercorvia]

You want a Tier 1 caster, not Wisdom based, that can create a near infinite amount of minions, and you are willing to use ADW and spawning? May I introduce you to the Wizard.

You can gain access to domain powers through the appropriately named ACF in CC. You can cast Animate Dread Warrior. If you want to, you can dip cleric for Rebuke and more domain powers. If you go that route, you can take Dweomerkeeper for free standard action Simulacra and Ice Assassins. Free Onyx is available from Fabricate.

[Maho-Tsukai]

You still won't match the cleric in numbers as far as animate dead gose, ever. Even with the deathbound domain power you'll never get desecrate. Also, animate dread warrior costs too much gold/XP to use as a non-SLA. I suppose you could take levels in archmage and make it an SLA to avoid the wisdom investment for spellstitching yourself, but you still will always lack rebuke, and even with the cleric dip the rebuke you gain will be pathetically underpowered and only useful for qualifying for those 2 EPIC feats. The ONLY way I would EVER use the wizard over any other class is if it was the pathfinder version, which actually gets rebuke if specialized in necromancy, or if there is some obscure ACF or feat that gives them rebuke, which there is not without homebrew.

There IS one way to get rebuke on a wizard, but it would involve you somehow obtaining a breath weapon. The easiest/no LA way to do that is Dragonborn, but thats good only....so yeah. If there IS some other way to get a breath weapon there IS a metabreath spell that allows you to use your breath weapon to rebuke undead, and it happens to be on the wiz/sorc list. The only issue is, um, obtaining a breath weapon...and even then the cleric, death master or dread necro can all still do what that spell dose without obtaining LA and wasting a spell slot.

In addition to your lack of rebuke, you also lack desecrate...which is a BIG issue. The only ways to get it are arcane disciple(which requires wisdom(though 13 is hardly "high" in my books....and also makes it so you can only cast it once-per day.) or Extra Spell(which is just not optimal as your blowing a feat just to get one spell.)....

So, no, even with the deathbound domain power, the wizard is nowhere near the cleric, death master or dread necromancer when it comes to Undead Animation/Minionmancy.

[dextercorvia]

That's why I recommended Dweomerkeeper. Cast as a Su ability x/day. You have a cleric level and Desecrate is a second level spell. Either blow the feat on Arcane Disciple and enjoy the will save bonus you get from having at least a 12 in Wisdom -- at two hours/level, it's not like you need it multiple times/day, or just cast it from a scroll/wand when you want it.

How aren't yo matching in Animate #'s? You are both at CL*3. Or are you quibbling about the 19 missing HD from Rebuke?

Infinity+19=Infinity.

Also, you can get a breath weapon from a spell, soulmeld, or the Draconic Breath feat.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Um, in epic levels Undead Mastery(the epic feat, not the DN class feature) TRIPPLES the ammount of undead you can control. It has rebuke as a prerequsit. Without it, at epic the cleric laughs his *** off at how pathetic you are at minionmancy. At non-epic levels the lack of rebuke means that your going to have a hell of a time trying to control whatever you make with create undead and create greater undead, and you also won't be able to snag some of the undead you can never yourself create, which is also a big loss.

Simply put, a Necromancer without rebuke is not a good necromancer.


The ONLY thing I can think of doing to mitigate this is resort to 3rd party, as 3rd party sources DO provide Arcane Necromancy PrCs that grant rebuke, though usually in a weakened form....but hey, at least that rebuke is still useable...but again, your going to be hard pressed getting 3rd party excepted in a lot of places.

[dextercorvia]

Wizard with a cleric dip is going to be stronger than Death Master with a cleric dip. And, he still qualifies for your epic feat.

Edit: you mean control as in the Rebuke ability. Yeah, you aren't going to get that except through cleric/DN.

[Maho-Tsukai]

But his rebuking is totally useless. Like I said, if the wizard had rebuke then yes, it would work. But he will never get rebuke and his cleric rebuke will be as a level 1 cleric...aka totally useless for controling anything. The only way to get a functional rebuke on the character would be to blow a feat on getting a breath weapon that you would most likely never otherwise use just so you can wast ever-important spell slots on a spell that turns that otherwise useless breath weapon into a psudo-rebuke for you.

Making a wizard into a miniomnancer is just flat out impossible and there is no way that this can be changed without "outside intervention" aka 3rd party/homebrew.

[dextercorvia]

It has everything you want, but you are upset because you have to spend a feat on rebuking? You were willing to spend a feat on Lost Traditions. How is this different?


Making a wizard into a miniomnancer is just flat out impossible and there is no way that this can be changed without "outside intervention" aka 3rd party/homebrew.

You have no idea how powerful simulacrum is, do you?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Because your not actually getting rebuke. Your getting a otherwise useless ability(a breath weapon) that you turn into rebuke by wasting spell slots. So your not using a feat to get rebuke, your using a feat to get a useless power that you can burn spell slots to turn into rebuke...which is strictly worse then actually having true rebuking since if you had real rebuking you don't actually have to waste spell slots, leaving them open for say, some of your life saving contengincies or deadly offenses.

If you could obtain true rebuking with a feat then there would be absolutly no issue here. But there is NO non 3rd party/homebrew feat that lets you get the actual ability to rebuke undead. So yeah.

Also, simulacrum can't match the numbers of the necro cleric. I want a world-conquering army, not a tiny squad of really powerful guys. If I wanted a small squad of uper-strong flunkies I would just be a summoner-type. I want an army able to take over the world, and a small team of Simulacrums can't do that. The massive undead legion, however, is a different story...

[ubergeek63]

You want a Tier 1 caster, not Wisdom based, that can create a near infinite amount of minions, and you are willing to use ADW and spawning? May I introduce you to the Wizard.

You can gain access to domain powers through the appropriately named ACF in CC. You can cast Animate Dread Warrior. If you want to, you can dip cleric for Rebuke and more domain powers. If you go that route, you can take Dweomerkeeper for free standard action Simulacra and Ice Assassins. Free Onyx is available from Fabricate.

ummm.... NO. Fabricate can make a sculpture out of a block of onyx (if you make the craft skill check) but can not create the onyx itself.

[Darth Stabber]

For the wizard? MECHANICALLY he has ABSOLUTELY NO way to make an army of any kind, meaning to build an army he has to either steal it from somebody else(dominate person on a king/emperor/ruler being the usual means to do this.) or rely on the DM actually considering making your character's goal matter in-game and allowing you to raise an army the old fashion way. However, there is NO mechanics for the latter and it is TOTALLY AND UTTERLY reliant on the DM.

Poppycock, the wizard does have a mechanical means of taking over the world.

Teleport + Mindrape + World leaders = world domination. And by using this method, you leave people alive for conquering nations with high Will save leaders.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Thats not actually taking anything over as you still have to lead from the shadows. Also, detect magic + a dispell effect= your plan just got ******. You would have to put TONS AND TONS AND TONS of effort into keeping up your ruse and disposing of ANYBODY with acssess to detect magic and a dispell effect, as that is all it takes for team good to go "sorry, you lose." The worst part? If team good pulls that off the king's going to remember he was dominated, and he's going to remember you did it. Thus, not only will your shadow-ploy be ruined and a team of good guys be closing in on you, but now you will have the entier nation you just had under your control after your guts too. So that method both has far more risk and requires far more work then necromancy. So I fail to see why anybody after world domination would choose to do that instead of use necromancy.

Also, thats not to mention you kinda have to find a world leader, which is something you'd again, have to beg your DM to do and would be many times out of the question for most people. Corpses, on the other hand, tend to find PCs quite easily. So yeah.

[Darth Stabber]

Thats not actually taking anything over as you still have to lead from the shadows. Also, detect magic + a dispell effect= your plan just got ******. You would have to put TONS AND TONS AND TONS of effort into keeping up your ruse and disposing of ANYBODY with acssess to detect magic and a dispell effect, as that is all it takes for team good to go "sorry, you lose." The worst part? If team good pulls that off the king's going to remember he was dominated, and he's going to remember you did it. Thus, not only will your shadow-ploy be ruined and a team of good guys be closing in on you, but now you will have the entier nation you just had under your command after your guts too. So that method both has more risk and requires far more work then necromancy. So I fail to see why anybody after world domination would choose to do that instead of use necromancy.

Also, thats not to mention you kinda have to find a world leader, which is something you'd again, have to beg your DM to do and would be many times out of the question for most people. Corpses, on the other hand, tend to find PCs quite easily. So yeah.

Mindrape durations = instantaneous.

[Maho-Tsukai]

How is that going to stop somebody who knows the king has been mind raped(Detect Magic) and has a dispell effect ready to liberate him from your mind control?

The king starts acting funny. The court mage suspects something is up. He casts detect magic on him without him knowing and finds out he's under the influence of magic. Luckally he has a dispell effect prepared and after figuring out that the king is dominated he casts it on the king. The monarch is now free from your control, and wants your head on a platter as a result...


How the heck can an instantionus duration prevent that situation or something simmilar?

[Darth Stabber]

How is that going to stop somebody who knows the king has been mind raped(Detect Magic) and has a dispell effect ready to liberate him from your mind control?

It does not detect on detect magic, and since it lacks a duration it's undispellable. You literally rearrange the contents of your target's brain, and can make them fanatically loyal to you, and quiet about it.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I see. I did not know thats how it worked. Thanks for the heads up. I never bothered playing an enchantment wizard because I always thought they where utter fail at obtaining minions and if I was not in it for the minions I would just be a generalist or specalize in conjuration instead.

Still dose not change the fact the Necromancer can do the army sooner then you get mind rape and you actually have to find a leader whom you know has a low wil save, which takes far more work then obtaining some corpses and onyx.

[dextercorvia]

Also, simulacrum can't match the numbers of the necro cleric. I want a world-conquering army, not a tiny squad of really powerful guys. If I wanted a small squad of uper-strong flunkies I would just be a summoner-type. I want an army able to take over the world, and a small team of Simulacrums can't do that. The massive undead legion, however, is a different story...

We are talking about an undead wizard on his personal demiplane. So, Instead of NI Dread Warriors, I have NI (slightly weakened) Force Dragons, Balors, Solars, etc.


ummm.... NO. Fabricate can make a sculpture out of a block of onyx (if you make the craft skill check) but can not create the onyx itself.

Except that is the material component, which we don't need since we are using an Su ability.


Poppycock, the wizard does have a mechanical means of taking over the world.

Teleport + Mindrape + World leaders = world domination. And by using this method, you leave people alive for conquering nations with high Will save leaders.

I <3 DarthStabber.

@Maho: The problem here is that you keep moving the bar. You mention that you want to be Int based and better than a cleric. I show you Int based and better than a cleric in 5 different ways, and you complain that a cleric is still better at such and such. To which, I respond that a Wizard can get such and such, but it still isn't this and that.

If you come up with a list of concise objectives, and a level range, I'll give you a character (if I can) that meets those objectives. Otherwise, start shopping for DM's who are all about Lost Traditions.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Ok, I want the built to be ABSOLUTLY NO WAY inferior to the cleric, which means it must be able to start the buildup of it's global takeover as soon as the cleric can, and for the cleric thats as soon as he can control a spawn-making undead. I am not sure what the earlest level a cleric can start controling spawn-makers, but whatever that level is is the level this build must also come online. I do not care what my minions are. They could all be space midgets weilding magi-tech sparkely lightsabers riding pink rainbow mained unicorns for all I care. All I need from this build is a way to start global conquest at the exact same level the cleric can, which is soon as he can pull spawning tricks. Heck, that global conquest need not even be with an army if you have another way of doing it.

Dominate Person the king, however, is NOT an exceptable way of doing this unless you can provide a detailed explination of how you intend to keep him under your control indefinelty, defeat people with detect magic and dispell effects and ward off any of the tens of thousands of complications with that plan, as well as a detailed explination of how you will be assured to find a leader with a low enough will save to dominate. Also, another detailed explination I demand is how you intend to keep up your ruse/decieve the king's inner circle(which would include at the least a court mage and priest, meaning you have two enemy casters AT THE LEAST to deal with.) and everybody else, for that matter, with little cha and no social skills as class skills.

As for what I am looking specificly for?

a build with a MECHANICAL method of taking over the world, at the same level the cleric obtains his(spawn-tricks.) that is not a thing he dose but infeior to the cleric(Which includes Necromancy, for wizards. Because wizards ARE inferor necromancers to clerics). Can be any tier 1 class, so long as said class is not wisdom dependant. You cannot use Dynamic or Acdemic Priest on a cleric for this as those feats make their offensive casting suck, which is too big a hit with the nerf bat for me. The exception to this is if you find a way to un-nerf their offensive casting WITHOUT resorting to tainted sorc/maho.

Thats what I am looking for. Is such a thing possible?

[dextercorvia]

That is still too vague. What do you mean by in no way inferior? Oh no, his Will Save is 1 less at ECL 20. What level do you want this to come online? What if it is slower but costs less, or costs more but is faster?

Specific is: By level 6 I want a way to control reproducible minions that have control over their spawn, and spawn at a rate of no less than 1/day, have at least 1 HD, etc.

Of course, I'm asking you to produce the actual specifics.

[Darth Stabber]

I see. I did not know thats how it worked. Thanks for the heads up. I never bothered playing an enchantment wizard because I always thought they where utter fail at obtaining minions and if I was not in it for the minions I would just be a generalist or specalize in conjuration instead.

Still dose not change the fact the Necromancer can do the army sooner then you get mind rape and you actually have to find a leader whom you know has a low wil save, which takes far more work then obtaining some corpses and onyx.

It's true that mindrape is a nine, but you can find leaders with low will saves really easily. Scry, greater invisibility, teleport, dominate, mindrape. If they make the save against scrying, you know it might be an issue. Just be sure to scry through proxies.

[Vemynal]

While Mind Rape is more effective some of us just like building giant armies

Especially of undead =D

So, arguably, seems to me the best minionmancer is the Dread Necromancer (maybe the Cleric. Still a little confused lol)

Focusing on Dread Necromancer; what would you guys say is the best class level set up for a minionmancer character using a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer as the base class. Would you go straight dread necro? take levels in a PrC? What ones if so?

[dextercorvia]

While Mind Rape is more effective some of us just like building giant armies

Especially of undead =D

So, arguably, seems to me the best minionmancer is the Dread Necromancer (maybe the Cleric. Still a little confused lol)

Focusing on Dread Necromancer; what would you guys say is the best class level set up for a minionmancer character using a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer as the base class. Would you go straight dread necro? take levels in a PrC? What ones if so?

Many of DN's minion based features are based on class level.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, which is why Dread Necro 20 is always my favored DN build.

Also, if your playing epic then the best idea for leveling would be to homebrew an epic progression for the class. I asked for one and got it in the "request a homebrew" thread so if you do some digging there you may find it. Also, if you find the DN's spell list annoying you may want to try running one with my DN spell list fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162358). The fix in no way overpowering and only adds 2 spells total to the DN list. Desecrate as a level 2(which the class should have had anyway) and Magic Circle(which they NEEDED badly) as a level 3. The list also fixes the "double death ward" issue by removing the level 3 death ward and makes one more change that I felt was necessary to the class, moving Animate Dead down a level to level 3, instead of it's RAW level 4. Shameless plug over.

[Darth Stabber]

Yeah, which is why Dread Necro 20 is always my favored DN build.

Also, if your playing epic then the best idea for leveling would be to homebrew an epic progression for the class. I asked for one and got it in the "request a homebrew" thread so if you do some digging there you may find it. Also, if you find the DN's spell list annoying you may want to try running one with my DN spell list fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162358). The fix in no way overpowering and only adds 2 spells total to the DN list. Desecrate as a level 2(which the class should have had anyway) and Magic Circle(which they NEEDED badly) as a level 3. The list also fixes the "double death ward" issue by removing the level 3 death ward and makes one more change that I felt was necessary to the class, moving Animate Dead down a level to level 3, instead of it's RAW level 4. Shameless plug over.

My own house rules give them animate dead and desecrate at 3rd, I really don't think that they need Magic Circle. They get planar ally spells, sure, but I like how it currently makes the spell into a corpse delivery service (some disembowling required). Besides, they can get it on a wand easy enough that they could just invest in UMD if they wanted to do it right.

[Coidzor]

Um. I don't think you can cast planar binding without a magic circle that requires the spell to make. :smallconfused:

[Darth Stabber]

Um. I don't think you can cast planar binding without a magic circle that requires the spell to make. :smallconfused:

Okay, well that is unfortunate. So I guess that we can call that a house rule I didn't know I had (I always assumed that if cast without a magic circle the thing would arrive and attack you since it is not bound in a circle, which isn't a huge problem for a necromancer since you can still make angel zombies)

[Godskook]

You're placing too much importance on spawn-chaining. Its great for shock&awe, but leaves you incredibly vulnerable. Destroying the right few undeads allows an enemy the ability to nullify almost all of your military might, while creating huge amounts of undead that could reasonably want to now kill you for enslaving them.

[Zaq]

Dominate Person the king, however, is NOT an exceptable way of doing this unless you can provide a detailed explination of how you intend to keep him under your control indefinelty, defeat people with detect magic and dispell effects and ward off any of the tens of thousands of complications with that plan, as well as a detailed explination of how you will be assured to find a leader with a low enough will save to dominate. Also, another detailed explination I demand is how you intend to keep up your ruse/decieve the king's inner circle(which would include at the least a court mage and priest, meaning you have two enemy casters AT THE LEAST to deal with.) and everybody else, for that matter, with little cha and no social skills as class skills.


And why, pray tell, is the king's inner court a problem for the enchanters, but the local church of Pelor/band of adventurers who can cause property damage before you kill them/existing liches who don't like uppity newcomers/whatever NOT a problem for the necromancers? Before you get epic magic (or an equivalent . . . hello, Pun-Pun), there's nothing that's 100% impossible to shut down, there's nothing that won't have complications, and there's nothing that can't or won't have some kind of NPCs looking into your plans (at least not once you get on the kind of scale you're looking at . . . those corpses are coming from somewhere, no?), so I really don't see what you're aiming at here.

OK, scratch that, I do see what you're aiming at, but I'm really not sure what you're asking, or why you're presenting it like this.

[Darth Stabber]

Wight chaining seems like a strong option, it comes online very early since they are only 4 hitdice, and can grow to rediculous sizes easily. It is very good for destroying the world, but not so much for taking over. Let's say you directly control 12 wights (4hd per CL, 12th CL), each patriarch wight has, let's say, 10 child wights, each child wight has 8 child wights{grand children}, that gives you a very impressive 1092 wights, and the grandchildren can get spawn and so forth. If 1 of your patriarch wights goes, all of it's children and grand children are now uncontrolled, making 10 subfamilies that likely hate you. Since wights are lawful, they are more likely to join some form of organization dedicated to brining you down. Or for a worse scenario, a high level evil cleric rebukes one of your wights, and will almost certainly control it. Now 1/12 of you army is gone from one rebuke check, and evil clerics have at minimum three of those per day. That's 1/4 of you force gone from 1 evil clerics work. Teleport mind rape may have it's flaws but it is a lot more reliable than a plan that relies on 4 hit die creatures staying alive. Bigger undead with the create spawn ability have a higher start-up cost and level, and consequently fewer patriarchs making the tables even less favorable. Honestly, being a wight is far better than controlling them for the purposes of taking over the world (ecl7, and you can lvl up beyond that), and it is still rather fragile. Enchantment>necromancy when it comes to world domination.