Death Master....Is it really worse then the Cleric at Minionmancy?

[Maho-Tsukai]

A while back somebody had posted up a thread about the dragon magizene compendium classes and how they don't get that much attention. The thread, partly due to my own actions, quickly turned into a Death Master vs. Cleric and/or Dread Necromancer and while the DN is truely the best at minionmancy I thought that the Death Master vs. Cleric debate was paticularly interesting and as a result I want to continue it here. So, I ask all of you who are fammilar with these classes, is the Death Master able to keep up with/on par with a cleric as far as Necromancti minionmancy/undead animation gose? If so, why? If not as it is, are there any feats, PrCs ect..(Including 3rd party..but not homebrew) that can make it up to snuff with the cleric?

Post your opinions and ideas here.

[WinWin]

Depends. Numbers or power?

Clerics get numbers earlier than the wizard.

Wizard minions are eventually more powerful than clerics.

Death Masters get animate dead earlier than the cleric.

As a launching pad for PrC entry, you could do worse than Death Master. Being a non-updated Dragon magazine class, they do not get access to some of the tricks and spells that make creating minions more effective (Such as spell compendium, the spellstiched template, various realms splatbooks).

[Maho-Tsukai]

I thought spellstitching was an option for all arcane casters, hence why Dread Necromancers, who where made after the book of bad latin, are still able to do it? Also, the death master has desecrate and can also obtain the deathbound domain power by going on an annoying sidequest(Planar touchstone) so I don't see how clerics are any better at the numbers game then the death master until they get their hands on General of Undeath. Oh, and also, by RAW Death Masters can obtain any spell from the wiz/sorc list(and thus have all the necromantic tricks the wizard dose PLUS some clerical stuff they never get...like desecrate and inflict spells.) they want so long as they possess it in written form, though that is most likely not RAI.

[WinWin]

Wizard and Sorcerers can apply the spellstiched template, part of the reason why they can have more powerful minions.

No other arcane classes are mentioned. Perhaps an oversight, but at the time of publication, alternate arcane casting classes were available. So far as I am aware, this restriction was never errata'd

[Maho-Tsukai]

Then why is the fact that Dread Necromancers are allowed to do it treated as gosple? The Necromancer's handbook, as well as countless other people all act as if Dread Necros can spellstitch just like wizards and sorcerers, and people have also claimed that clerics can spellstitch due to the spell domain, which gives them arcane casting which in turn allows them to spellstitch because all arcane casters, not just wizards and sorcs, can do it.

[Psyren]

Stop me if I'm mistaken, but this whole Dread Necro-Death Master-Necro Cleric thing has been really weighing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203101) on your (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203043) mind lately, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203166) hasn't it?

If I may ask, why do you even want NI minions anyway? Either you slow the game to a crawl or you use mob rules, in which case it doesn't really matter whether you're controlling 500 skeletons or 5,000, one would just have bigger stats.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Actually, it's been on my mind for longer. Much longer. The main reason is that I want necromancy equal to a cleric. Cleric works PERFECTLY for me mechanically, but I am not that great at RPing high wisdom. Thus, I am trying to find a way to have necromantic prowis equal to that of a cleric without the high-wis RP and am having trouble finding a class other then the Dread Necro that can do that. For most situations, the Dread Necro is fine, but in a highly OP game it will be quite underpowered compaired to the tier 1s and as a result for such games I desire something that can compete with the tieir 1s AND be equal, at the least, to a cleric in necromancy. The wizard cannot provide that and the only way that I can get what I want withiout 3rd party or homebrew seems to be Dynamic or Acdemic priest, both of which make me useless at offensive casting and forcing me to have to use clericzilla melee or diplomancy to actually have a way to deal with enemies other then "get them my minions!"

So, I wanted to find out if the death master can provide this for me, but so far I have not gotten enough input to see if such a thing would be a yes or no. So, it's not been on my mind lately, and in fact has been on my mind ever since I learned the game,. Why do you think my screen-name is Maho-Tsukai? I used the Maho(and it's 3.5e equlivilent, the Tainted Sorcerer) many times to make up for the shortcomming of Dynamic and Acdemic priest, allowing me to bypass the MAD casting it gives me and use taint for my DCs instead of wisdom, but we all know how cheesy the taint can get if left unchecked and as a result I don't like pulling that method unless I have to.

Of course, if there is another way to obtain minions I am open to commanding something other then the undead. Necromancy is my first love, but diplomanced followers and dominated thralls are fine by me. The former, however, can be ridicilously cheesy and the enchantment dominator route cannot provide the numbers necromancy can.

Also, Mob rules are usually the default method of choice for handeling the "massive turn" issue and while you can argue it's the same thing mechanically as having a small undead squad fluff wise it's not, as mobs of skeletons are not the same as a few skeletons and I frankly prefer the imagery of a shambeling horde/undead mobs to the imagery of a small squad of super-skeletons.

[Divide by Zero]

Could you use Academic/Dynamic Priest from Legends of the Twins to go off of Int/Cha instead of Wis? It doesn't affect save DCs, though, so that might be a problem with a few spells like command undead.

Edit: never mind, didn't see that bit.

[Maho-Tsukai]

The archivist would work...IF it had rebuke, but it dose not....hence why I never bothered using it for this purpose. Since all the PrCs that grant turn/rebuke are cleric exclusive or only grant turn(when it's rebuke I want) the Archivist is out of the question without homebrew or 3rd party.

As for other classes, I can't seem to find any that can at all equal the cleric in necromantic prowis AND be close enough to tier 1 to compete in higher OP games as the DN is better then the cleric at necromancy, but worse at everything else.

So yeah, perhaps I should look at another kind of minion other then undead? Diplomancy is still an option, and it works for pretty much any cha-based class. While Tier 1 has nothing thats cha-based, tier 2 has plenty for that and a tier 2 can reasonably stand toe to toe with tier 1s...Also, while the artificer really wants more int then cha I suppose you could call it a "cha-based" tier 1 due to UMD being a key skill for the class...I suppose a hordificer who somehow got Diplomacy as a class skill could be a reasonably strong minion-master by abusing leadership and diplomancy and using his money-hording as a means to build lots and lots of constructs. With his crafting skills he could basicly have whatever magic item he wants, which would be very useful for boosting his Diplomacy rank sky high to get minions just by talking to and manipulatine people. With leadership, extra followers, that feat that makes your cohort stronger, a sky high diplomacy check and a good number of constructs to boot I suppose I could have a fairly large army of living mooks and mecha mooks using an artificer, though I am not sure if that would match the size of a cleric's necro army, but would it at the least come close?

[dextercorvia]

You are only missing out on 20 or so HD of minions without Rebuke, correct? What does that matter?

[Maho-Tsukai]

It matters in epic, because rebuke is a prerequsit for the Undead Mastery and Zone of Animation feats, both of which you will be totally inferior to the cleric and Dread Necro without. I do suppose you could lose a single CL to take a dip in Death Delver or even a base class with rebuke(Cleric for deathbound domain power and spell domain for the ability to spellstitch as well?) to get rebuke so you can qualify for those feats as well as the ever powerful divine metamagic but your actual rebukeing would be pathetic and you...well...had to lose a CL to get it. Though I suppose the fact that it gives you acssess to the totally cheesy divine metamagic and those two epic feats is enough of a payoff for the CL lost?

Also, 20 HD lost is 20 HD less I have then the cleric, which means I am still inferior to him, though not by much

So maybe Archivist X/Death Delver 1/Contemplative 10(Deathbound and spell domains.) would be as good a Necromancer as a cleric with the right spell choices/scrolls? I do lose a single CL from the death delver dip, but in return gain rebuke which qualifies me for the epic necro feats I mentioned as well as divine metamagic, the latter of which is a totally awesome and overpowered feat to have. Yeah, the CL loss kinda hurts, but people play sorcerers so having the same progression as a sorc is not as painful as some make it sound..

[Gullintanni]

Rebuke also permits you to make use of much more specialized undead. The Wight you're fighting who also happens to be a level 15 Sorcerer? Well now he's on your side.

Those 20HD can be a big deal if you shop around for the right undead...

...The problem with taking Death Delver 1 is that your effective turning level is only 1. If you plan to use Rebuking for commanding undead, this is less than ideal.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, which is one of the reasons my ideal Necromancer would have acssess to it. So I can't really see a class that can match the cleric on terms of necromancy that is in the tier I am looking at.(As a Dread Necro can do it but is not high enough in the tier system.) So perhaps there are ways to make a non-undead army that can match the necro cleric's undead hordes? I mentioned Hordificer diplomancer as a means to do so but I am not sure if that can match the necro cleric for army size, espcially considering how much more expensive constructs are over undead. Sure, you have living mooks too, and have diplomancy to basicly recruit whoever you want to your side using words alone, but I am not sure thats enough to match the necro cleric....dose anybody know if it is?

Also, is there a non-homebrew, non-third party way to get Rebuke on an archivist? Would forgetting contemplative and instead going Archivist X/Cleric 1/Rebuke advancing PrC 10 be enough to get a good enough rebuke, and if so, what PrC advances rebuke that would be worthwhile for a necro archivist?

The only rebuke-advancing classes I know are Bone Knight, which is really for gishes, and Master of Shrouds, which makes you lose ANOTHER CL. Is there some kind of PrC(other then bone knight) that can swap turning for rebuking? If so then I could dip in one of the classes that grants turn and then use that PrC to make it turn to rebuke, so I don't have to lose so many CLs?

[Gullintanni]

We've had this conversation before, you know my opinion :smalltongue:

IMO, the best solution you've presented (in this thread and in previous ones) sounds like Death Master. It covers most, if not all of the bases that make Clerics awesome. Pulling domains out can be tough, but if you're already willing to lose a caster level, take Cloistered Cleric 1/Death Master 19. You get Domains, a Turning Level of 19 and with all the LM goodies, this is more than sufficient to Command pretty much everything ever. This is probably about as close as you'll get to a perfect INT based minion-mancer necro.

...Other forms of minionmancy I'm much less familiar with. I've always found undead to be the least likely form of minionmancy likely to get DMGs thrown at me. Diplomancy causes headaches, not the least of which results from turn length.

[Maho-Tsukai]

And it dose not have to be int-based. It just has to be NOT wisdom based. Id' be fine with a cha-based caster here as well, or heck a caster who uses any ability score except wisdom. It's not so much I want high int as it is I don't want high wisdom, if you get what I mean.

Also, if I did do the cleric dip then what level should I do it? Level 1? I suppose that such a thing could work, but I am not sure if it would still be inferior to a strait cleric?

[Veyr]

Actually, it's been on my mind for longer. Much longer.
So you keep posting the same thread over and over, hoping for a different answer? :smallconfused:


The main reason is that I want necromancy equal to a cleric. Cleric works PERFECTLY for me mechanically, but I am not that great at RPing high wisdom.
Dynamic Priest is a Dragonlance feat that makes a Cleric have Cha-based casting.

Or just ask your DM to houserule it. Cha is the worse casting stat anyway, I can't see why any DM would mind. Especially when it's explicitly for RP reasons.

It really confuses me that you'd go to so much effort to make the Death Master something it's not, than just make such a simple change to the Cleric.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I have tried that, and sometimes it works, but for every time it has worked I have gotten an answer of "no, thats too overpowered" even when I clearly state it's for RP and that I am fine with having them ban DMM for me, since DMM abuse is what everybody seems to think I am after whenever I ask for the 3rd party casting stat switch feat that dose exactly what I am looking for.(Lost Traditions.)

I guess I am just having bad luck?

Also, my reason for wanting to not use the cleric is the fact it's casting stat is wisdom and I can't RP high wisdom well. Some people say "just forget being OOC and RP your character against your stats.." but to me thats just not an option, and as a result I wanted to find a way to play what I want without having to struggle with the high wis RP. If the cleric had a different casting stat it would be fine, but it is FINDING GROUPS that allow the casting stat swap thats the issue, as doing such a thing, even with a feat, requires 3rd party or homebrew, both of which not everybody looks uppon kindley.(And no, don't say Dynamic Priest. I like having offensive casting/good DCs, thank you.)

[Gullintanni]

And it dose not have to be int-based. It just has to be NOT wisdom based. Id' be fine with a cha-based caster here as well, or heck a caster who uses any ability score except wisdom. It's not so much I want high int as it is I don't want high wisdom, if you get what I mean.

Also, if I did do the cleric dip then what level should I do it? Level 1? I suppose that such a thing could work, but I am not sure if it would still be inferior to a strait cleric?

There's nothing Cha based that really works here, hence my suggestion. I mean...DN, but, you've ruled that out based on what I agree are entirely reasonable conclusions, given what you're after. IMO, every necromancer except the straight caster necromancer is inferior to straight Cleric. In order to make any other class fit the role, you have to twist, bend, and take pretty much every ACF out of every book ever + planar touchstone etc. This is more of a problem for some classes than others, but Cleric 1/Death Master 19 does exactly the job you want it to and if it's worse than Cleric 20, it is so in only the narrow margins.

You lose a caster level, and that always sucks, but IMO if your primary role is minion necro, then you're not losing much. Animate Dead is an Evil subtype spell, so if you take the Evil domain, then you're getting back your lost caster level for the purposes of Animate Dead anyway, so the Cleric dip makes up for itself that way. Plus you pick up Deathbound. And some nice armor proficiencies. Regarding when to dip Cleric? Either take it as level 1, or take it immediately after you can first cast Animate Dead as a Death Master.

[Divide by Zero]

I have tried that, and sometimes it works, but for every time it has worked I have gotten an answer of "no, thats too overpowered" even when I clearly state it's for RP and that I am fine with having them ban DMM for me, since DMM abuse is what everybody seems to think I am after whenever I ask for the 3rd party casting stat switch feat that dose exactly what I am looking for.(Lost Traditions.)

Ask why they think it's overpowered? Might be able to correct the misconception or whatever their problem is.

[Veyr]

They may have some point on the Cha-SADness, especially for a Necromancer. Have you tried asking for Int-based? Int is somewhat better than Wis (at least for a high-Will class), but at least you still have the dual-ability-dependency going on.

[Maho-Tsukai]

But how much do I lose by going Cloistered Cleric 1/Death Master 19 as appose to Cleric 20? You are right in the fact that other then the CL loss it is not much, as due to having divine casting via the cleric dip I can get a scroll of General of Undeath if I really want to use that spell. Likewise, I am (mostly) arcane, which means I can spellstitch and as a result can do the Animate Dread Warrior trick for a potentially infinent-size legion and get awaken undead without a scroll by putting it on a spellstitched minion. I would still need some wisdom to actually get into cleric, but I would need only 11 and thats hardly as much wisdom as, say, 16-18, which is what a cleric would normally have. Heck, if we are using flaws I could always just spend a flaw on Acdemic Priest so I can totally dumb wisdom..after all, with only 1 level of cleric casting I won't need DCs anyway.

Also, due to int being the "best" casting state I have never bothered trying to ask for lost traditions to set cleric casting to int because I thought that it would be totally banned for "powergaming/munchikining" reasons, espcially with a cloistered cleric. Perhaps on a non-cloistered cleric it would be more exceptable?

[Gullintanni]

But how much do I lose by going Cloistered Cleric 1/Death Master 19 as appose to Cleric 20? You are right in the fact that other then the CL loss it is not much, as due to having divine casting via the cleric dip I can get a scroll of General of Undeath if I really want to use that spell. Likewise, I am (mostly) arcane, which means I can spellstitch and as a result can do the Animate Dread Warrior trick for a potentially infinent-size legion and get awaken undead without a scroll by putting it on a spellstitched minion.


Honestly, I can't really answer this question. The inability to PrC out is what hurts the most IMO. If you pick up Contemplative 1 for example, you're down 2 Turning Levels now, instead of just the one you'd have lost otherwise. Given that Death Master (IIRC) has ACTUAL class features after level 1 though, I can't see this being a TERRIBLE trade.

If you desperately need a Cleric spell that you don't have access to, pick up a Wand. Wands, as far as I know, don't have any level restriction. If the spell is on your list, you can cast it.

You may miss out on Miracle over a level 20 Cleric, again I don't know the Death Master's spell list; which is too bad because it's a great spell, but most of what you lose doesn't really fit the Necromancer theme anyway. Cleric brings a lot to the table outside of Necromancy by virtue of its spell list, and really, that's what you're losing.

And Divine Metamagic...ouch.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Actually, the death master is not missing out on anything sans Divine Metamagic, really. The Death Master is actually a tier 1 class and has a very solid spell list which includes the arcane version of miracle, Wish, as well as it's limited little brother.

Also, while I am betting it's not RAI, by RAW the Death Master has acssess to the entire wiz/sorc list via scrolls, spellbooks ect...so while his spells he learns from leveling up must be from the death master list(which I may add is pretty powerful on it's own.) he can learn whatever he wants from the wiz/sorc list so long as he can find/buy it in written form, which in a way makes him EVEN MORE versatile then the cleric as he, potentially, has every trick the wizard dose PLUS good minionmancy though like the archivist this depends highly uppon how generous your DM is with scrolls.

[mootoall]

Cleric offensive casting based on Cha? Why not go for a Dread Rainbow Servant? You lose out on some Undead Mastery benefit, but you're still, most of the time, ahead of the Cleric in terms of Animate Dead. And anyway, you're talking about high (and oftentimes epic) levels, so take just enough Dread Necro that you can proceed through 10 levels of RS.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I want to be evil. Rainbow servant demands that you be at the least netural, and fluff wise would really prefer that your good. Aligenment restriction is why that one is out. I HAVE used an evil re-fluff of the class based on chromatic dragons but again, some DMs may not be all that kind to such a thing even if it IS just a re-skinning of an offical class as appose to totally new materal.

[Divide by Zero]

Cleric offensive casting based on Cha? Why not go for a Dread Rainbow Servant? You lose out on some Undead Mastery benefit, but you're still, most of the time, ahead of the Cleric in terms of Animate Dead. And anyway, you're talking about high (and oftentimes epic) levels, so take just enough Dread Necro that you can proceed through 10 levels of RS.

Then you just have to explain why the couatls would grant their knowledge to a necromancer. Also, it doesn't advance rebuking.

[Gullintanni]

Actually, the death master is not missing out on anything sans Divine Metamagic, really. The Death Master is actually a tier 1 class and has a very solid spell list which includes the arcane version of miracle, Wish, as well as it's limited little brother.


Miracle > Wish. But fair enough. The DMM issue is that DMM only works on Divine spells...but if a Cleric can get by without DMM and still be Tier 1 (which it can and does) then you shouldn't have anything worry about. Play on :smallsmile:

[Maho-Tsukai]

Actually, there IS a way to obtain Miracle for a Death Master, though it is a bit convluted. Basicly what he would have to do is take leadership or undead leadership and get his cohort to be a wizard(a good idea even if not aiming for miracle due to using said minion as a personal magic-mart/scroll shop for any wizard/sorc spells you may want.) who takes the arcane disciple feat to pick up a domain with miracle on it's list. Sure, you have to wait until he gets 9th level spells but once he dose you can obtain miracle via coppying it from his spellbook into yours.

I know some of you will say that "I can't do that because it's not a wiz/sorc spell" but that dose not matter as despite not being on the wiz/sorc list the Death Master(and wizard) classes to not say that recorded spells have to be of the wizard/sorc list, just that they have to be arcane and have to be in written form. Thus, since arcane disciple spells are in fact arcane a death master could record it from an arcane disciple wizard's spellbook(since arcane disciple actually adds the spell to the spellbook) into his own, and since he did not use the arcane disciple feat to obtain the spell it would, by RAW, function like any other spell he cast instead of being wis-based, as arcane disciple usually makes it.

Possible by RAW? Yes. Cheesy? Very

[WinWin]

Then why is the fact that Dread Necromancers are allowed to do it treated as gosple? The Necromancer's handbook, as well as countless other people all act as if Dread Necros can spellstitch just like wizards and sorcerers, and people have also claimed that clerics can spellstitch due to the spell domain, which gives them arcane casting which in turn allows them to spellstitch because all arcane casters, not just wizards and sorcs, can do it.

Read the spellstiched template. MM2 and Complete Arcane.

As for why people say things and make unssuported claims, that is something I can't answer. I suggest that you find the authors of these claims and send them a query to explain how they are achieving these CharOp tricks. Perhaps they are utilizing a rules exploit I am unaware of...

Or maybe they are just full of

[dextercorvia]

WinWin is partially correct. You have to be a Sorcerer or Wizard to create spellstiched creatures, but Undead with Arcane casting ability can spellstitch themselves.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I see, then in that case all the Death Master would need to do is become Necropolitian at level 3, and a good idea for him anyway since his inflict spells now heal him too. The only issue is he would then actually need wisdom, due to spellstitching requiring a high wisdom to get the best spells.

[dextercorvia]

I see, then in that case all the Death Master would need to do is become Necropolitian at level 3, and a good idea for him anyway since his inflict spells now heal him too. The only issue is he would then actually need wisdom, due to spellstitching requiring a high wisdom to get the best spells.

And then you are back to RPing a high wisdom.:smallbiggrin:

[Maho-Tsukai]

Which is what I was trying to escape in the first place. Though Undead Leadership fixes that if I make my cohort a spellstitched undead.

[dextercorvia]

Then won't the Dread Warriors be under their control? I thought you were also trying to avoid chain of command?

[Talya]

(I sense a houserule coming on)

I dislike Wisdom being required for any evil type of character. One could argue strongly that it is unwise to be raising armies of the dead to begin with, or to trade ones soul for physical or magical power.

[Maho-Tsukai]

But again, houserules do not apply to every situation or group, so yeah, not an option. Sadly it seems I will NEVER be able to play a global dominator without wisdom unless I play a wizard who wants to make the typpyverse and somehow becomes immortal so he can actually live long enough to rule over his lame, Gaia rip-off with the economic might of his lame, lame, lame Shinra clone that he obtained through using his high int and lame, not dark and evil, sparely, pretty magic to start an industrial revolution with him at the helm....but again...

That has absolutly no mechanical foundation what so ever.

So it seams the ONLY way I can play a world conquerer is to play a necromancer or beg my DM to let me do it through RP, and the latter would be a hard as all **** sell while the former seems impossible without wisdom or 3rd party/homebrew/houserules.

Also, Necromancy is much more stylish. Undead army > Industrial revolution as far as cool-ness factor gose.

[WinWin]

Spellstiching requires:

-Sorcerer or wizard levels

-Craft Wondrous Item

-Ability to cast stiched spell.

Undead arcane caster can stich themselves sure. But do they still need Craft Wonderous item? Do they still need the ability to cast the spell they want to stich?

If the answer to those questions is yes, then ask yourself this:

Why would they ignore the other requirement of spellstiching?

I stand by my explaination of the requirements for adding this template to a creature.

[dextercorvia]

That is a perfectly legitimate reading. I wouldn't balk if that's what the DM said, but I read it as an exception.