Problem Player: Can he really do that?

[Major]

Alright, I haven't had time to fully look into this and I figure the playground can answer this quickly.

A few of the players in the large group I have on Skype that games once again had a problem with a muchkin player. No joke, we call him that because he is incapable of playing a non-broken character.

It's not min-maxing because he'll manipulate or lie about rules and it's so well known that he tries to take advantage of unknown rules to the point where DMs are starting to send his sheets to experienced player's to overlook them.

This next paragraph can be skipped, it's mostly just examples. He did the whole necropolitan tainted scholar in a game where the DM didn't add taint. He just tainted himself and broke it horribly to the point where everyone required him to make his character leave the party and play a new one. He has created a druid and tried to add original D&D and advanced D&D rules to power him up. He even tried to leave a few lines out of feats out (example Natural bond can't bypass character level. His argument "It's debatable". He tried to have a 6th level animal companion at 3rd.)

Long story short, he has a history and I've noticed that MOST the time when he breaks something its by changing a rule to mean something else. There are very few times where he could have legitimately broke the game so it tends to get stopped when a player (usually me) points out the real rule.

This isn't a "how to deal with him" thread. I know how, but I'm not DM and it's kinda up to the DMs in the games he is. They don't want to boot him, they just want to be able to have the rules on their side. As such I want to ask about a specific rule.

TL;DR <-Important question

Currently the player is playing a Wizard (remember the "I can't help but break the game" mentality?). He has lately been doing plane hoping where he will spend all his spells, teleport mid-battle to a plane with advanced time so he can rest eight hours and have everything back, then teleport back so he's gone for one round of combat.

Since out of all the times I've heard of wizards being broken this has never been mentioned, I'm guessing this is another example of him not doing a rule right. Can a wizard seriously do that? Use all spells, teleport to fast time plane, teleport back?

[Zherog]

Teleport cannot cross planar boundaries. So that's out. He could, however, accomplish the same thing with plane shift.


This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible.


Interplanar travel is not possible.

edit: The big thing for the DM's to keep in mind about plane shift is that it's more or less completely in their control. It requires an expensive focus to cast the spell (a "tuning fork" attuned to the plane to be traveled to). So he would need at least two of these - one to get to the plane with faster time, and one to get back. A DM could simply withhold one (or both) of these and the control the problem.

edit again: Also, he can't "pop" right back to where he was previously on the material plane - even if he has the tuning forks needed to make the journey both directions.


Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination.

[Veyr]

Since out of all the times I've heard of wizards being broken this has never been mentioned
It actually comes up fairly frequently as an example of the further reaches of conceivable Wizard power.

I don't think anyone expected that anyone else would ever use it in a game.

Assuming that he knows Plane Shift and knows of a plane with the Fast Time trait that he can reach with Plane Shift, yes, this is legitimate.

Frankly, at this point I'd tell your DM that it's either him or you. That's absurd, it's rude, and you really shouldn't have to deal with it. It's up to the DM to prevent this sort of thing, and this player has made it clear he's not going to play any other way.

Send the DM this way if he needs help approaches the player; the Playground is good at this sort of thing. But personally I would not sit for another session — not even one — until this player was gone.

Or hell, send the player this way; it might not mean much, but an entire forum of people going "dude, stop being such a _____" might help.

[Flickerdart]

Also, the fast time planes aren't empty. There's guys hanging around there too, and some of them are probably wizards who had the same bright idea. When they bump into a sleeping guy loaded with magical loot, they are going to slit his throat and help themselves to his riches.

Additionally, the fastest official flowing time plane is a 10:1 ratio, meaning that 8 hours of rest still takes a good length of time on the Material plane. Until he can cast Genesis and make time as fast as he wants on his demiplane, that trick doesn't fly.

[Andrewmoreton]

Given planar travel it could work however as already pointed out he cannot use a teleport spell for planar travel if he has planar travel he would need the following
1) There is such a plane
2) He knows about it
3) There is somewhere safe he can rest

He attempted this in a game I was running i would allow it , until the point he teleported without spells to his 'safe' place found an enemy waiting and died.
(Or alternatively tell him NO. Play properly or find another game)

[Zherog]

Also, see my edit in my previous reply. Plane shift doesn't allow accurate "landings" when you arrive.

[Godskook]

With plane shift, yes, he can do that. Anything less powerful? No. However, this is a great example of "the DM doesn't explore the consequences of PC actions". Seriously, the planes are not 'safe places of refuge', and a plane where time travels at the rate of 1day/6sec is going to have major differences each time he goes there, not to mention that plane shift doesn't offer any help towards arriving in a safe area.

Also:


Focus

A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures.

In other words, to find a particular plane with particular traits requires research into making the correct rod. The DM is perfectly within his rights to say "you can't make that knowledge check" or "the required metal is extraplanar, you can't find any" for planes he doesn't want players having access to.

[Claudius Maximus]

This really depends on your game's cosmology. Nothing suggests there is even such a thing as a fast time plane unless you're playing in Eberron. And I'm not just saying you can houserule away, I'm saying that there is not really any rules basis to guarantee that there is one by default. It's literally only if the DM says so.

Also this guy is a jerk and you should do something about that.

[Doc Roc]

Also, the fast time planes aren't empty. There's guys hanging around there too, and some of them are probably wizards who had the same bright idea. When they bump into a sleeping guy loaded with magical loot, they are going to slit his throat and help themselves to his riches.

Additionally, the fastest official flowing time plane is a 10:1 ratio, meaning that 8 hours of rest still takes a good length of time on the Material plane. Until he can cast Genesis and make time as fast as he wants on his demiplane, that trick doesn't fly.

Or make him a job offer. Either way, he ain't comin' home.

[shadow_archmagi]

If your DM allows it. The thing to keep in mind is that there isn't necessarily a plane with time accelerated to that degree, and he doesn't necessarily have access to it or know of it.

Also, if he's going alone, then your DM can just have him devoured by planar beasts while he's there.

[Essence_of_War]

What level is he?

There is a high level spell, Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm), which allows him to create a plane and set the time flow traits. He could be planeshifting there.

Edit: Swordsage'd out the wazoo

[Absol197]

Technically, yes, it's possible, as long as he's using plane shift, not teleport. However, most sane DMs would require several things first:

1) Such a plane has to actually exist in their multiverse. None of the multiverses I've ever ran have had a plane like this. I don't think any of the normal planes in the Great Wheel have any sort of advanced time trait.
1b) Even if such a plane exists, it might not have that extreme of a time trait.
EDIT: Someone said the biggest official time trait is 10:1, which means 8 hours there will still take 48 minutes on the material plane.

2) The character would need to know about the plane, requiring a Knowledge (the planes) check. the more obscure the plane is, the higher the DC.

3) As others have said, the character would need a focus for plane shift for both the destination plane, as well as the Material Plane. The rarer the destination plane, the rarer and more expensive the focus would be. Knowling what metal he needs and where to find it (it might even be extraplanar itself) would likely require another Knowledge (The planes) check, with a slightly higher DC than simply knowing the plane itself exists.

4) Plane Shift is not an exact science, and is rarely on target. He would miss by 5d% miles when coming home to the Material Plane, which might put him in a dangerous situation (are you within 500 miles of an active volcano? Better hope those d% come out right...). Then, if he's not using greater teleport, he'll have a chance of missing when trying to get back to the rest of the party.

5) As others have said, none of the planes are empty. There will be creatures on the destination plane, many of which will be hostile, and he can't stand watch and rest at the same time (you already said he had no spells, anyway). Most planes, even the good-aligned ones, are incredibly hostile to non-natives, even the material plane. We live there, and are innately familiar with the rules and creatures and natural hazards and other things that are here, and it's still a dangerous place for us. Traveling to another plane is quite often deadly, even if you're extremely well prepared and know the location your trying to get to very well. Just randomly wisking off to anywhere on an unfamiliar plane? Suicide. Plane (:smallbiggrin:) and simple.

6) Also, you need to remember that a character can only recover spells once a day. You can't rest 8 hours, fight for an hour, rest 8 hours again, and then have all your spells back. You can take as many 8 hour rest periods a day as you want, but only one of them will refresh your spells.

[Reluctance]

Plane Shift doesn't quite let you pinpoint your location. Teleport Without Error gains a mishap chance if you use it to cross planar boundaries, while Teleporting back after Plane Shifting also has the normal Teleport miss chance. Plane Shift followed by TWE would work, though. If you want to check core stuff online while you game, d20srd.com is a handy resource.

The DMs sound like they're letting themselves be walked all over, BTW. They're fully free to insist that there are no planes with wacky time traits. (The Great Wheel is time-neutral all around for just this reason.) More to the point, they wouldn't be in the wrong to disallow the T1s, now that there are so many more flavorful and capable classes designed to fit those same roles. If the player's trick is to have so much rules text behind him that checking it all takes too much time away from the actual game, the simplest solution would probably be to disallow characters that require that much DM headspace. That's just me, though.

Edit: Ninja'd on all possible fronts.

[Major]

I'm actually not in the game, players just know I know things or can talk to other people on this site.

I think he plane shifts then teleports. But thanks for the tuning fork mention (he never mentions that) and the 1:10 only.

Apparently he is taking advantage of new DMs. I told it to one player to bring it up.

I'll let you guys know the result.

[Flickerdart]

He may cite Eschew Materials for not having to use the fork, but it's a focus, not a material component, and cannot be obviated.

[Absol197]

I'm actually not in the game, players just know I know things or can talk to other people on this site.

I think he plane shifts then teleports. But thanks for the tuning fork mention (he never mentions that) and the 1:10 only.

Apparently he is taking advantage of new DMs. I told it to one player to bring it up.

I'll let you guys know the result.

Show the DM this thread. We can give him all the info he needs to keep this guy in line.


He may cite Eschew Materials for not having to use the fork, but it's a focus, not a material component, and cannot be obviated.

Exactly. Also, have the DM check all the spells this guy's using; even if he has Eschew Materials, any material component that costs anything still has to be provided.

the best thing to do? When you're setting up a game as DM, be explicit with the players: set up what books are allowed (my group uses Core + the Complete series), and then say that all other material must be approved on a case by case basis. If the player has not asked the GM explicitly about something, they cannot use it in the game. That should stop a good portion of his shenanigans about drawing from obscure sources.

Also, say, plain and simple, "We're playing 3.0/3.5. Nothing from any previous (or later) editions is allowed." Seriously, that's just stupid.

[Veyr]

He might cite that the Spell Component Pouch is said to have any and all negligible-cost foci and components in it. And he'd be right.

Spell components are a joke, and a bad one. To seriously force your players to keep track of them (the unpriced ones, anwyay) is to the detriment of the game. I think it is much better to simply tell this player off than to do that.

[Major]

I've sent this link to most the DMs. The one running the actual character in question isn't online, but I'll mention it.

It's literally so bad I've had sheets handed to me and asked "Do you recognize X what does X do?" "Should I allow X?" "Does X lead to broken crap?" etc.

It's sad when most player's we can trust, except one. -__-

Oh, humorous story to REALLY cause some lolz. He tried to argue with one DM that he needed something to powerup his druid because no metal nerfed him. He wanted a 2.0 god that apparently let them wear metal or something.

A couple of the DMs said they are gonna join the site now :P Yeah recruiting!

[Hirax]

It's worth pointing out that the Spell Compendium has greater plane shift, which allows you to arrive exactly where you wish on the target plane, as long as you've been there, but it's an 8th level spell for wizards, and 7th for clerics.

[Major]

If I recall the party is around 12 to 14. Again, I only bring this up cause until today I was the only one that used these forums and I'm usually able to help with most things.

I told them I'd look into it for them and I figured you guys would have more answers and such than I could find and sure enough...

I was only able to do the "its not accurate" which was countered by "He also teleports and plane shifts"

[Keld Denar]

He could also be Astrally Projecting. If you indefinitely Planar Bind a Nightmare on your demiplane (its not hard), you could force it to Project you pretty much as much as you need without having to pay 1000g each time. That would also allow instantaneous transport between your demiplane and where you are adventuring as desired.

[Absol197]

He could also be Astrally Projecting. If you indefinitely Planar Bind a Nightmare on your demiplane (its not hard), you could force it to Project you pretty much as much as you need without having to pay 1000g each time. That would also allow instantaneous transport between your demiplane and where you are adventuring as desired.

14th level isn't quite enough for a demi-plane of his own :smallsmile:

[Keld Denar]

Oh, missed that. Its still high enough to Astrally Project (via Nightmare binding) from somewhere else, though, like Dal Quor (Eberron) or whatever other fast time plane he's refering to.

[Godskook]

Actually, this should be said:

D&D 3.5 *CAN'T* be played by with munchkins without the use of houseruling and a DM who's willing to rule 0 a little where there's clear abuses -or- where a single player deviates too far from the party norm. This should be done aggressively and *EARLY* in the process, so that retcon is kept to a minimum. A DM who doesn't want planeshift to be used as a "I refresh all my spells" spell is perfectly within his rights to ban or nerf it so that it can't be used that way.

[Greenish]

He even tried to leave a few lines out of feats out (example Natural bond can't bypass character level. His argument "It's debatable". He tried to have a 6th level animal companion at 3rd.)Some have read Natural Bond to mean that you can have a stronger companion than normal, if you select one of the stronger options that reduce your "effective druid level", for example taking Tiger (-6 to EDL) at level 4, since 4+3-6=1, which is less than your character level.

There's a good argument to be made for the reading, but obviously you'd okay such interpretations with your DM beforehands if you weren't a douche.


Nothing suggests there is even such a thing as a fast time plane unless you're playing in Eberron.And Dal Quor isn't a place you'd want to visit alone and low on spells, let alone sleep there.


Of course, since the DM has allowed it to work (I gather), the solution more elegant than just retconning it would be to make the plane in question have erratic time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#erraticTime) instead of flowing time like the character thought. :smallamused:

[Absol197]

Oh, missed that. Its still high enough to Astrally Project (via Nightmare binding) from somewhere else, though, like Dal Quor (Eberron) or whatever other fast time plane he's refering to.

True, but then he's leaving his defenseless body behind for hours on end on a hostile reality that is likely swarming with predators. As a DM, I would be making constant d% rolls to determine if some carnivore comes along and decides that wizard seems like a good meal that day.

[Major]

Some have read Natural Bond to mean that you can have a stronger companion than normal, if you select one of the stronger options that reduce your "effective druid level", for example taking Tiger (-6 to EDL) at level 4, since 4+3-6=1, which is less than your character level.

There's a good argument to be made for the reading, but obviously you'd okay such interpretations with your DM beforehands if you weren't a douche.

And Dal Quor isn't a place you'd want to visit alone and low on spells, let alone sleep there.


Of course, since the DM has allowed it to work (I gather), the solution more elegant than just retconning it would be to make the plane in question have erratic time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#erraticTime) instead of flowing time like the character thought. :smallamused:

Oh we agreed at level 4 he could do it. That it'd give him a strong animal companion at his level. The problem was he tried it at level 3. Saying his Druid level was 6.

[Scrivener]

A couple of the DMs said they are gonna join the site now :P Yeah recruiting!
Yeah, yeah, I'm here.

Thankfully, he isn't pulling much of anything like this in my campaign so far -- this character, as well as the dread necromancer mentioned in the OP, is in a campaign we've been running for over a year now. I'm playing one of these (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Lorechaser_(3.5e_Class)) in that one, and I thought I was running the risk of being broken (/points at the Lucky Star ability).

Granted, he hasn't had much time to pull anything in my campaign, since we're on the fourth or fifth session and his character only just joined the party. On that note, binders? Anything sneaky he can do there? The class looks pretty innocent to me...

[PirateLizard]

Yep, sucks. Some people just can't handle life.

[Major]

I can guarantee he can be crafty with Binder, but they can give you better input on what.

[Flickerdart]

Binders really have one overpowering vestige - Zceryll, from a web enhancement, that lets you Summon Monster at-will. Otherwise they're solid T3. Watch out for munchkinery on his part, though, as tons of new rules would mean that he can get away with more if you don't check.
With Binder, if he gets uppity, the DM could always beat him down with vestige influences.

[Keld Denar]

Watch out for attempts to use Tenebrous to DMM Persist an infinite number of spells. Depending on how you read it, it COULD potentially be STRETCHED excessively to mean that in a few minutes, he'd have dumped enough TU attempts into DMM to do that, but that is pretty much cheating.

Just make sure he's binding the proper amount of vestiges and also make sure he's openly exhibiting their signs (unless he spends a feat on Surpress Sign). Also, make sure you know what the vestiges he's actually binding DO, so he doesn't say something funky like "Foculor totally allows me to cast Slay Living at will at level 5". Yea...

[boj0]

Treat him like a dog, you don't tell him not to poop in the house; you let him do it and then show him why it is the worst possible idea ever. :smallamused:


Have the DM make a plane with the fast time trait.. it also has the greater positive energy trait, wild magic, and the trait that Elysium has that makes people want to stay. He jumps to the Plane of Ecstasy, true he gains his spells back; but why would he want to go back? This new plane is so wonderful and vibrant! While he starts failing will saves, he just wants to sit and stay, eventually succumbing to one of two outcomes: 1. Rapid aging catch up to him and he crumbles. 2. Positive energy overload, if you gain too many temporary hit points you asplode.
If he wants to leave...well, this is why we have wild magic, oh you want to plane shift out? Well it appears you instead summon a fiddle, enjoy your fiddle old man.



Tell him his powergaming is making things lame for the other players/DMs and he should stop.

[Scrivener]

from a web enhancement, that lets you Summon Monster at-will
Yeah, this sounds like something I'll need to be on the watch for. He's fond of using a strangely high number of different rulebooks (Dragon magazine and web-published things inclusive) to construct these characters.

The possible alternative character to the binder was an anthropomorphic bat druid of some sort, which just smelled of even more trouble.

[Godskook]

On that note, binders? Anything sneaky he can do there? The class looks pretty innocent to me...

You have so much to learn.

1.Binders are the second most powerful class that doesn't get a power/spell progression, right after Artificer. To make it worse, they're so dip friendly I could've inserted a prostitute joke in here.

2.Be *VERY* careful about using anything of anything homebrew off DandDwiki.com. It really isn't designed to weed out the bad ideas, yet it presents them all as if looking like good ideas.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, this sounds like something I'll need to be on the watch for. He's fond of using a strangely high number of different rulebooks (Dragon magazine and web-published things inclusive) to construct these characters.

The possible alternative character to the binder was an anthropomorphic bat druid of some sort, which just smelled of even more trouble.
Anthro Bat is the single most powerful Druid race.

[Scrivener]

You have so much to learn.

1.Binders are the second most powerful class that doesn't get a power/spell progression, right after Artificer. To make it worse, they're so dip friendly I could've inserted a prostitute joke in here.

2.Be *VERY* careful about using anything of anything homebrew off DandDwiki.com. It really isn't designed to weed out the bad ideas, yet it presents them all as if looking like good ideas.
1. I'll take another look at it.

2. We have an unwritten rule that any homebrew goes past the DM first. We're pretty fond of homebrewing our own stuff, too, which we're experimenting with in my campaign -- dunno how it'll turn out.

He doesn't homebrew, though. Just uses the optimized builds of existing things he knows.

[Doc Roc]

This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) is the only worry, as mentioned earlier, and that shouldn't be toooo bad.

[Amphetryon]

Yeah, yeah, I'm here.

Thankfully, he isn't pulling much of anything like this in my campaign so far -- this character, as well as the dread necromancer mentioned in the OP, is in a campaign we've been running for over a year now. I'm playing one of these (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Lorechaser_(3.5e_Class)) in that one, and I thought I was running the risk of being broken (/points at the Lucky Star ability).

Granted, he hasn't had much time to pull anything in my campaign, since we're on the fourth or fifth session and his character only just joined the party. On that note, binders? Anything sneaky he can do there? The class looks pretty innocent to me...
Welcome to the Playground, Scrivener.

1. Don't let Tenebrous grant NI Turn Undead, as stated. Treat Tenebrous's limitations on Turn Undead as an additional limitation.

2. Binder is useful to get into Anima Mage, wherein some shenanigans can be had with reducing metamagic and so forth. Some of those shenanigans are legal, but you want to either be very thorough going over his breakdown of spells and feats to produce effects, or at least, run his attempts past others more familiar with the Class(es).

[Andmcmuffin2]

Well, Major, now you've done it. Anyway, I'm one of the players that's been in the campaigns in question since day 1- an essentially core-only cleric in the first with the Dread Necromancer/Planeshifting Wizard shenanigans, and a Warforged Fighter in the second. He's been telling me how I should optimize, and frankly, I do the opposite. I've taken Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion on the cleric just to antagonize him.


With Binder, if he gets uppity, the DM could always beat him down with vestige influences.

When everyone was going through character creation, I briefly pointed this out. He rebutted that he also gets to roleplay his vestiges. Knowing him, he's dead serious and doesn't realize that no, the DM gets to make you do things against your will when you bind your soul to unstable eldritch creatures.

[Greenish]

Oh we agreed at level 4 he could do it. That it'd give him a strong animal companion at his level. The problem was he tried it at level 3. Saying his Druid level was 6.Ah, then he's just flat out ignoring what the rules actually say.


On that note, binders? Anything sneaky he can do there? The class looks pretty innocent to me...It's probably the things that the rules don't allow that you should be looking at, if the descriptions are accurate. :smalltongue:


Just make sure he's binding the proper amount of vestiges and also make sure he's openly exhibiting their signs (unless he spends a feat on Surpress Sign).Binders get the ability to hide the signs from level 2 (if they make a good pact).

Still, you need to show the signs to use some of the powers (say, Amon's horns can't be used as a natural weapon unless you actually have the horns :smallamused:).

Speaking of Amon, some vestiges have special requirements for binding them. Amon, for example, hates a bunch of other vestiges and can't be binded with them.


Yeah, this sounds like something I'll need to be on the watch for. He's fond of using a strangely high number of different rulebooks (Dragon magazine and web-published things inclusive) to construct these characters.There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. :smalltongue:

[Absol197]

One thing I'd do as a DM is make sure to enforce the separation between player and character knowledge. Sure, the player knows everything about all the vestiges and what they can do and their symbols and how to summon them and such, but the character knows no such thing. Force Knowledge checks, and require him to quest in order to learn the symbols of rarer and really powerful vestiges.

I haven't read binder in a while and don't have books at the moment, but I'm pretty sure normally they just have access to all vestiges that a binder of their level can bind. I don't like this kind of auto-knowledge in my games. Stuff like that should be earned.

And obviously don't just stick this one player with it--apply it across the board to all the players. I prefer games like that, but if it's not your style, then you can forget about it.

[Major]

Actually Scrivener he mentioned using online vestiges. However, the main thing he originally wanted to do was craft...so not entirely sure if he'll break it, but that's a heads up on something he said way back when making the character. Not sure what else he wants.

Edit: In regards to him not homebrewing, that's because then he couldn't google broken builds and try to mix them without double checking that they do what people claim.

Like when he tried the one goddess in Rentok's campaign and I pointed out it was 2.0 and he googled that it was in 3.0, gave me a link and in 3.0 it didn't give him anything.

Seriously though, anyone who argues that no metal nerfs his druid needs to be smacked. :P

[Grendus]

If he's taking levels in binder, he isn't going to go Anima Mage. Munchkins use the loose wording on Anima Mage to replace the binder portion of the entry with Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. It's RAW legal, but... well, there's a reason Anima Mage is a +2 PrC. The ability to get free metamagic is just too good.

[Greenish]

doesn't realize that no, the DM gets to make you do things against your will when you bind your soul to unstable eldritch creatures.Well, unless someone actually told that to me, I wouldn't expect it to work like that, since that's not how it works by default.

[Andmcmuffin2]

Well, unless someone actually told that to me, I wouldn't expect it to work like that, since that's not how it works by default.

The Tome of Magic says that if you make a bad pact, "the vestige influences your personality and your actions". Depending on how bad the pact was, I'd honestly imagine that the vestige might choose to do things the that player doesn't want to.

[Greenish]

The Tome of Magic says that if you make a bad pact, "the vestige influences your personality and your actions". Depending on how bad the pact was, I'd honestly imagine that the vestige might choose to do things the that player doesn't want to.The binder entry actually spells out what it does. Basically, if you make a bad pact, and then are unable or unwilling to go with the vestige's influence (they all require certain actions or inaction in certain situations, as described in each vestige's entry), you get -1 penalty to practically everything for the day. It stacks, and can stack up pretty fast, but the vestiges can't take control and force you to do something you don't want to.

[Edit]: And there are only bad pacts and good pacts, it's not scalar.

[Veyr]

Actually Scriver he mentioned using online vestiges. However, the main thing he originally wanted to do was craft...so not entirely sure if he'll break it, but that's a heads up on something he said way back when making the character. Not sure what else he wants.
That'd be Astaroth, Unjustly Fallen from Urban Magic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a). It's not really broken, but if you have a lot of downtime he could potentially create a lot of magic items, since he can have a new Item Creation feat every day. Still, it's not really that serious unless, like I said, he gets a ton of downtime and some way of generating money (which you should not allow).

Binders are pretty tightly bound in power; they're pretty good but they can't really be optimized into game-breaking-ness without the Summon Monster shenanigans (and even then, eh; it's nothing like the stupidity he's trying to pull with the Wizard).


Also, did I read that he was a Dread Necromancer/Wizard? How does that work? If he's seriously multiclassing those two, he should be very weak; they don't synergize at all.

[McSmack]

I just thought of a horrible idea. Have the rogue in the party steal his tuning fork for the Material Plane.

So the player uses all his spells, shifts to the Plane of Cheese or whatever, but can't leave because he only has the one fork.

[dps]

Someone said the biggest official time trait is 10:1, which means 8 hours there will still take 42 minutes on the material plane.

Wouldn't that make it 48 minutes? Or have my math skills just deteriorated a lot?

[Major]

That'd be Astaroth, Unjustly Fallen from Urban Magic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a). It's not really broken, but if you have a lot of downtime he could potentially create a lot of magic items, since he can have a new Item Creation feat every day. Still, it's not really that serious unless, like I said, he gets a ton of downtime and some way of generating money (which you should not allow).

Binders are pretty tightly bound in power; they're pretty good but they can't really be optimized into game-breaking-ness without the Summon Monster shenanigans (and even then, eh; it's nothing like the stupidity he's trying to pull with the Wizard).


Also, did I read that he was a Dread Necromancer/Wizard? How does that work? If he's seriously multiclassing those two, he should be very weak; they don't synergize at all.

He started Dread Necro, moved onto Tainted Scholar with necropolitan. He broke it horribly and they made him play a new character. That's the wizard.

He blows all spells, then wants to rest and make the party wait after every encounter and they aren't willing to wait so he just started plane shifting. (or so I've been told. I'm not in that campaign, I'm in the other two where he is Druid in one and Binder in the other)

[Veyr]

He started Dread Necro, moved onto Tainted Scholar with necropolitan. He broke it horribly and they made him play a new character. That's the wizard.

He blows all spells, then wants to rest and make the party wait after every encounter and they aren't willing to wait so he just started plane shifting. (or so I've been told. I'm not in that campaign, I'm in the other two where he is Druid in one and Binder in the other)
Why haven't you kicked this player out of your games?

[Scrivener]

I just thought of a horrible idea. Have the rogue in the party steal his tuning fork for the Material Plane.

So the player uses all his spells, shifts to the Plane of Cheese or whatever, but can't leave because he only has the one fork.
The rogue-ish duties in the party fall to my lorechaser, and she's got some backstory with him -- she wouldn't be a **** to him for no reason.

Admittedly this idea sounds delicious.

[Hirax]

More and more it's sounding like I wouldn't let him into future groups.

[Scrivener]

More and more it's sounding like I wouldn't let him into future groups.
Eh. We enjoy his company when he isn't pulling his tricks.

[Andmcmuffin2]

Also, did I read that he was a Dread Necromancer/Wizard? How does that work? If he's seriously multiclassing those two, he should be very weak; they don't synergize at all.

Two different characters, he wrote out his Necropolitan Dread Necromancer because he "grew bored with [it]". The new wizard's teleporting everywhere and apparently keeping his attention.

Also, if the -1 from disobeying your vestige is that crippling, he'll likely spend the 11 rounds purging and rebinding vestiges any time he doesn't want to do what they ask, is there some sort of limit on this that I'm missing?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why haven't you kicked this player out of your games?

This. The player sounds horrible, he's not taking advantage of the brokenness inherent to 3.5, he's outright cheating.

[Major]

*shrugs* I'm not DM and only have to listen to him *****ing out of character. Which actually kinda amuses me cuz its fun to troll him. But at the same time, if I were DM I'd be VERY hesitant to let him play, but I'm not DM.

One DM is really nice, Rentok (one he is a druid) has already called him on stuff and been keeping him in line, and Scrivener (the Binder one) hasn't dealt with him much. He's been in I think one game and not done anything so nothing to judge yet.

Its the one with the other DM that he is the big jerk in.

[Greenish]

Also, if the -1 from disobeying your vestige is that crippling, he'll likely spend the 11 rounds purging and rebinding vestiges any time he doesn't want to do what they ask, is there some sort of limit on this that I'm missing?Expel Vestige only works 1/day, and you have to pick the feat. Otherwise, you'll have to keep what you bind for 24 hours.

The vestige influences vary, but many can be rather minor (give a coin to any dwarf you meet, for example).


[Edit]: And even Expel Vestige doesn't remove the penalty. Nothing but time will.

[Major]

To clarify

Three Campaigns
*Pantheon (DM: Toku not on this forum): Dread Necromancer/Tainted Scholar: Wrote out of story. Switch to Wizard teleport crap
*Firebird (DM: Scrivener) Binder who was just added to party
*Splitwalker (GM: Rentok, on forum but not posting here) Druid who tried a lot of crap but has been kept in line so far.

I'm in Firebird and Splitwalker
(Factotum in Firebird and Rogue in Splitwalker)

[Veyr]

Expel Vestige only works 1/day, and you have to pick the feat. Otherwise, you'll have to keep what you bind for 24 hours.

The vestige influences vary, but many can be rather minor (give a coin to any dwarf you meet, for example).


[Edit]: And even Expel Vestige doesn't remove the penalty. Nothing but time will.
I think Andmcmuffin2 was saying that this player would sooner stop the game in its tracks and wait half a day or more, than play with a minor penalty. Which again begs the question, why hasn't this player been booted? Major, I know you're not DM, but some of these posters are the DMs that you "recruited", right?

But anyway, the penalties are intentionally not that severe. That is part of the point of the Binder, really. It's fairly important to their fluff, and it's also a big part of why they're fun and Paladins (for example) suck.

[Major]

Scrivener is a DM. Rentok was already on the forums, but hasn't posted here. The other isn't.

muffin and me are players.

But yes, trying to demand players stop to bypass downsides is what he did as the wizard and I wouldn't be surprised if he did as a Binder. The party refuses so he tries shenanigans.

[Greenish]

But anyway, the penalties are intentionally not that severe.At least at first. After a while, though, -1 to all attacks, saves and checks that stacks infinitely and can't be removed for 24 hours will begin to crimp your style. :smalltongue:

[Andmcmuffin2]

I think Andmcmuffin2 was saying that this player would sooner stop the game in its tracks and wait half a day or more, than play with a minor penalty.

It's happened. That's why the original teleportation/planeshifting became a problem.

The DM gives us a portal to a new plane, where we have to clear a ruined castle to reach the armory. The problem is, we can't see the horizon anymore- it's been consumed by an all-enveloping whiteness, and it's getting closer. Halfway through the castle, he's expended 80% of his spells and says, "Guys, can we rest for eight hours? I used most of my spells." Everyone else has been keeping things in reserve so we do not have to wait, so the party collectively decides to go on. We don't want to see what happens if the wall of nothing hits us. With that, he pulls his planeshift thing, everyone has a collective "wat", but then remember who we're talking to. We're dissapointed at that point, not surprised.

[Flickerdart]

The vestige influences vary, but many can be rather minor (give a coin to any dwarf you meet, for example).
As you sit down in the shade to enjoy a cup of ale, a procession of dwarves begins to march by. A Knowledge (Local) check reveals that it is Dwarfnival, the annual dwarven parade that lasts two weeks and gathers dwarves from miles away to participate. More dwarves gather by the minute to cheer these dwarves on. Truly, it is a joyous and festive occasion.

[Major]

Just a heads up Muffin, if he does that with Zym or Mikel near by I'm gonna sleight of hand, pickpocket the hell out of him.

Zym is greedy so that is a reason. And Mikel uhhhh...well, he took it cause he still thinks the owl is a pet not a teammate. There.

[Greenish]

As you sit down in the shade to enjoy a cup of ale, a procession of dwarves begins to march by. A Knowledge (Local) check reveals that it is Dwarfnival, the annual dwarven parade that lasts two weeks and gathers dwarves from miles away to participate. More dwarves gather by the minute to cheer these dwarves on. Truly, it is a joyous and festive occasion.It actually only happens when you learn their name. Even then, if you've made a bad pact with Aym and find yourself in town at the time of the Dwarnival, you'd better lock yourself up or leave (or Expel Vestige if you can).

[Major]

As you sit down in the shade to enjoy a cup of ale, a procession of dwarves begins to march by. A Knowledge (Local) check reveals that it is Dwarfnival, the annual dwarven parade that lasts two weeks and gathers dwarves from miles away to participate. More dwarves gather by the minute to cheer these dwarves on. Truly, it is a joyous and festive occasion.

<3 <3 <3

Love it!

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's happened. That's why the original teleportation/planeshifting became a problem.

The DM gives us a portal to a new plane, where we have to clear a ruined castle to reach the armory. The problem is, we can't see the horizon anymore- it's been consumed by an all-enveloping whiteness, and it's getting closer. Halfway through the castle, he's expended 80% of his spells and says, "Guys, can we rest for eight hours? I used most of my spells." Everyone else has been keeping things in reserve so we do not have to wait, so the party collectively decides to go on. We don't want to see what happens if the wall of nothing hits us. With that, he pulls his planeshift thing, everyone has a collective "wat", but then remember who we're talking to. We're dissapointed at that point, not surprised.

I think you should either kick him out, or have the DM make the denizens of the plane behave realistically. Also, if he does that a lot, he shouldn't be surprised when he advances an age category in two months.

[The Dark Fiddler]

The DM gives us a portal to a new plane, where we have to clear a ruined castle to reach the armory. The problem is, we can't see the horizon anymore- it's been consumed by an all-enveloping whiteness, and it's getting closer. Halfway through the castle, he's expended 80% of his spells and says, "Guys, can we rest for eight hours? I used most of my spells." Everyone else has been keeping things in reserve so we do not have to wait, so the party collectively decides to go on. We don't want to see what happens if the wall of nothing hits us. With that, he pulls his planeshift thing, everyone has a collective "wat", but then remember who we're talking to. We're dissapointed at that point, not surprised.

See, this seems like the point where it would become an in-character problem.

[Flickerdart]

When he Plane Shifts back, he has a pretty good chance of popping up beyond the nothingness which is probably fatal. Make him roll.

[Keld Denar]

Eh. We enjoy his company when he isn't pulling his tricks.

So, invite him to Halo and Beer night, or better yet, Munchkin and Beer night (I bet he's one heluva Munchkin player), and don't invite him to D&D. You still get to enjoy his company, just...not as often, and not when it detracts from your own enjoyment of the game.

[Major]

Sadly we are a Skype group that knows each other from another forum

[Avalon2099]

I wonder has anyone done an "intervention" on this guy? have you guys sat down with and talked to him? in some fashion or just "Play another character we dont like that"?

I had a player of the similar vein who I sat down with my fellow DMs and had him bring all his broken characters and explain WHY he was doing these things. He has since toned it down is still optimizing but not actually breaking or cheating. Maybe he pulls these shenanigans for attention? Give him some, construct something in a way that engages him? is he a problem player, of course but kicking him out and not interacting with him about his problem is not helping.

[Major]

Well I've not dealt with him much in an actual game. Only with chats when people are discussing characters. So...not sure actually.

He just got in the game I've been playing (firebird) and I just got in the druid one (Splitwalker)

[Fuhrmaaj]

In Fiend Folio (a 3.0 monster manual thingie), there is a CR 17 Inevitable called a Quarut. They are the guardians of space and time and seek out those who manipulate space and time to their ends. To me, it sounds like next time your character plane shifts to his demiplane of ludicrous speed time, their should be a Quarut standing there waiting to have a chat with him.

Quaruts are constructs and if your wizard is (somehow) plane shifting to the same location every time, then the Quarut can have an action readied for the better part of a millennium. Once the Wizard plane shifts in, make a touch attack against him and unleash a Temporal Stasis (which is what the Fiend Folio says a Quarut will typically do in combat). If the Quarut succeeds, then the Wizard has been effectively killed because he's frozen for eternity.

Then it's up to the DM how he plans to manage the situation. If you have fear of PC reprisal, then set up a trial in an anti-magic field on the plane of Mechanus. Have the Quarut go to the material plane to invite the party to defend (or take part in the trial of) the wizard.

So from the party's perspective, the wizard teleports when he needs to refresh his spells (because he's a bad planner). Six seconds later, a Quarut appears, casts Circle of Death at CL 18 and kills whatever the party was fighting. Then he immediately turns around and drops a Forcecage on the party and interrogates them about the wizard's time abuse. He then invites the party to a trial on Mechanus to defend the wizard (if the believes the party wants the wizard to not spend the rest of eternity frozen in place).

Then you can have a different style of game session where the entire party is in a courtroom on Mechanus, and everyone gets to decide whether the wizard stays or goes. The DM can decide what the party wants, and can let the wizard off with a warning and removing all time and plane shifting spells from the spellbook as punishment. This will satisfy the Inevitables because the wizard is not likely to use the same trick again.

Otherwise, the wizard will be placed in solitary confinement for the rest of his life (make it on the time accelerated plane so that he's old and feeble before your next adventure starts).

[Major]

I completely forgot about the Inevitables! And I think one of the players mentioned that actually fitting.

[Fuhrmaaj]

I completely forgot about the Inevitables! And I think one of the players mentioned that actually fitting.

The best thing about Inevitables is that nobody remembers them until they break their laws :smallbiggrin:

[Analytica]

Nobody expects the Quarut Inquisition!

[Fuhrmaaj]

Nobody expects the Quarut Inquisition!

I was thinking about that (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tym0MObFpTI) as I wrote about the Inevitable :smallsmile:

[holywhippet]

Wouldn't that make it 48 minutes? Or have my math skills just deteriorated a lot?

It should be 48 minutes to cover 8 hours if the plane has time moving 10 times faster. However, a wizard needs to spend 1 hour preparing their spells so it will take 54 minutes before they are ready to return.

[NineThePuma]

Jeeze, this guy looks fun. I'm glad to welcome a bunch of you to the playground.


Something I tend to do is randomly post questions about stuff; typically, during the day, I have seen the board get back to me in almost RECORD BREAKING time. I think I once posted a topic about something, literally went to the bath room and came back to three pages of discussion in about 10 minutes. it was crazy.

[NecroRick]

What level is he?

There is a high level spell, Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm), which allows him to create a plane and set the time flow traits. He could be planeshifting there.

Edit: Swordsage'd out the wazoo

From the link you pointed to:


"The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."

I am failing my spot check to see "Time Flow Traits" in the list there.

I see:
Atmosphere
Water
Temperature
general shape of terrain

Since the spell can't even create buildings or vegetation, I think Time Traits is an enormous stretch. completely wrong.

Anyway, according to RAW the answer is no.

(1) as someone else pointed out it requires plane shifting, and plane shifting is inaccurate as to where he ends up.
(2) even if he had access to Genesis he still couldn't create a demi-plane where time flows faster.

[holywhippet]

Hmm, to me "such as" means that is a list of examples and not an all inclusive list.

[Z3ro]

Hmm, to me "such as" means that is a list of examples and not an all inclusive list.

That's a legitimate way to read that passage, as it a reading that makes it an inclusive list. That's why RAW in places is impossible to determine, because the English language is not as precise as we'd like it to be.

[Calimehter]

Something I tend to do is randomly post questions about stuff; typically, during the day, I have seen the board get back to me in almost RECORD BREAKING time. I think I once posted a topic about something, literally went to the bath room and came back to three pages of discussion in about 10 minutes. it was crazy.

This is a pretty funny thing to see in a thread that features abuses of differing time flow in different locations. Watch for Quaruts next time you go. :smallbiggrin:

[Godskook]

It should be 48 minutes to cover 8 hours if the plane has time moving 10 times faster. However, a wizard needs to spend 1 hour preparing their spells so it will take 54 minutes before they are ready to return.

Did you calculate that spells are only given once per day into that equation? Resting early provides no extra benefit.

[sonofzeal]

Hmm, to me "such as" means that is a list of examples and not an all inclusive list.
Yes, but it also implies that any further elements of the unbounded set of adjustable elements should be similar to the listed elements, for some unspecified degree of similarity.

It's still ambiguous, but I do think Flowing Time is out by RAW as it is rather dissimilar to the listed elements.

[JaronK]

From the link you pointed to:


"The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."

I am failing my spot check to see "Time Flow Traits" in the list there.

It's there plane as day, where it says "The Spellcaster determines the environment" and that it reflects "most any desire the spellcaster can visualize."

The planar traits of a plane are the environment, and anything you can visualize covers, well, anything. There's really not wiggle room on this one. The only question is whether a Wizard can visualized hyper speed time... but this is someone who's been casting Haste and Slow for a long time, and also has Time Stop. It's not a stretch for him to visualize that exact thing. Note that the divine version of the spell is worded exactly the same... except with an added sentence that says you're not allowed to muck about with time traits. So, even the designers eventually realized what they'd written, but for some reason they just wrote it better in the divine version and never fixed the arcane version. Psionic Genesis doesn't let you screw with time either.

You do need Gate to get where you want, though... not Plane Shift, due to inaccuracies in that spell.

JaronK

[sonofzeal]

It's there plane as day, where it says "The Spellcaster determines the environment" and that it reflects "most any desire the spellcaster can visualize."

The planar traits of a plane are the environment, and anything you can visualize covers, well, anything. There's really not wiggle room on this one. The only question is whether a Wizard can visualized hyper speed time... but this is someone who's been casting Haste and Slow for a long time, and also has Time Stop. It's not a stretch for him to visualize that exact thing. Note that the divine version of the spell is worded exactly the same... except with an added sentence that says you're not allowed to muck about with time traits. So, even the designers eventually realized what they'd written, but for some reason they just wrote it better in the divine version and never fixed the arcane version. Psionic Genesis doesn't let you screw with time either.

You do need Gate to get where you want, though... not Plane Shift, due to inaccuracies in that spell.

JaronK
Oddities with the Divine or Psionic wording aside, as previously stated I believe the phrase "such as" provides a limiter on what can be adjusted as it requires an admittedly unspecified degree of similarity. I'd argue that "such as" works to refine the broader category of "things that can be visualized", and anyone attempting to alter the Time trait, or the one that bars access to strangers, would have to successfully argue that these traits are sufficiently similar to atmosphere, water, temperature, and general shape of terrain. If they can't do so to the DM's satisfaction (and the DM can impose whatever standard of evidence they feel appropriate given the campaign), then adjusting those traits would not be allowed.

It's also still not trivially evident that time can be visualized in this way. I mean, I can build a Michelson-Morley device, and understand the theory behind it, without being able to visualize time, y'know?

[Optimator]

You do need Gate to get where you want, though... not Plane Shift, due to inaccuracies in that spell.

JaronK

Or Greater Plane Shift (SpC)

[holywhippet]

Did you calculate that spells are only given once per day into that equation? Resting early provides no extra benefit.

I was assuming that the caster was ready to bed down and sleep for 8 hours. Otherwise you'd need to add in the amount of time until they are actually ready to sleep.

Looking at the details on preparing spells, I'm not certain you can only get spells once per 24 hours. You need to sleep/rest for 8 hours before you can prepare new spells which might make it difficult to prepare new spells more often but not impossible. For a creature that doesn't sleep you should be able to rest 8 hours, prepare your spells, cast them all then rest another 8 hours etc.

[Godskook]

Looking at the details on preparing spells, I'm not certain you can only get spells once per 24 hours. You need to sleep/rest for 8 hours before you can prepare new spells which might make it difficult to prepare new spells more often but not impossible. For a creature that doesn't sleep you should be able to rest 8 hours, prepare your spells, cast them all then rest another 8 hours etc.

You're missing a very important line in the wizard's description:

"Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score."

Seems pretty clear cut that "day" is the distinguishing factor towards getting new spells, not resting. The rest is actually only required to prepare the spells, at least as far as I can tell.

[Absol197]

You're missing a very important line in the wizard's description:

"Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score."

Seems pretty clear cut that "day" is the distinguishing factor towards getting new spells, not resting. The rest is actually only required to prepare the spells, at least as far as I can tell.

This is the big one. Something that isn't explicitly stated but requires only a little thinking is how this relates to clerics. Clerics don't regain their spells by resting; they gain them by praying at a specific time of the day. A cleric of Pelor can only regain spells at sunrise. Sunrise happens once a day. Since clerics are limited to preparing their spells once per day, no matter how much they rest, the wizard should be as well.

[Greenish]

Sunrise happens once a day.I just realized that Pelor probably isn't a very popular deity north of the arctic circle or south of the antarctic circle. :smalltongue:

[JaronK]

Oddities with the Divine or Psionic wording aside, as previously stated I believe the phrase "such as" provides a limiter on what can be adjusted as it requires an admittedly unspecified degree of similarity. I'd argue that "such as" works to refine the broader category of "things that can be visualized", and anyone attempting to alter the Time trait, or the one that bars access to strangers, would have to successfully argue that these traits are sufficiently similar to atmosphere, water, temperature, and general shape of terrain. If they can't do so to the DM's satisfaction (and the DM can impose whatever standard of evidence they feel appropriate given the campaign), then adjusting those traits would not be allowed.

The rule is anything that can be visualized, and that you can make the environment what you want. The examples are what you're talking about. Rules trump examples. The Divine version of the spell makes it very clear that the Arcane version can do this... go ahead, read it yourself.


It's also still not trivially evident that time can be visualized in this way. I mean, I can build a Michelson-Morley device, and understand the theory behind it, without being able to visualize time, y'know?

All they have to do is visualize what it's like to be in a Timestop... congrats, that's it. And that's a spell they can cast just fine. And remember, we're talking about super geniuses here.

JaronK

[holywhippet]

I just realized that Pelor probably isn't a very popular deity north of the arctic circle or south of the antarctic circle. :smalltongue:

Well, consider these kind of circumstances:

a) The players are in the underdark (or equivalent) so they can't see the sun or really know what time it is.

b) The players are on a plane where there is no sun.

c) The players are somewhere that has days that are greater than or less than 24 hours (like another planet).

I always kind of thought that a "day" was a bit of an abstract concept in D&D in terms of adventurers - you get up, do whatever, then eventually you need to rest. Once you wake up, a new day has started regardless of how much time has passed. 4th edition even has "daily" powers which can be used more than once every 24 hours provided you rest often enough.

[Hiro Protagonest]

4th edition even has "daily" powers which can be used more than once every 24 hours provided you rest often enough.

4th edition also says you can only take one extended rest every 24 hours.

[holywhippet]

4th edition also says you can only take one extended rest every 24 hours.

No, an extended rest is at least 6 hours long. Once you've completed an extended rest you have to wait 12 hours before you can begin another one. That means you could have just finished a rest, use a daily power, wait 12 hours, rest another 6 and use a daily power again - total time elapsed = 18 hours.

[Grendus]

Well, consider these kind of circumstances:

a) The players are in the underdark (or equivalent) so they can't see the sun or really know what time it is.

b) The players are on a plane where there is no sun.

c) The players are somewhere that has days that are greater than or less than 24 hours (like another planet).

I always kind of thought that a "day" was a bit of an abstract concept in D&D in terms of adventurers - you get up, do whatever, then eventually you need to rest. Once you wake up, a new day has started regardless of how much time has passed. 4th edition even has "daily" powers which can be used more than once every 24 hours provided you rest often enough.

a) There's a magic item for that. I think it's in Dungeonscape.

b) You'd have to find some way to measure time, I guess. I agree this is probably an unwinnable situation without houseruling though.

c) You can prepare more or less often?

[Gabe the Bard]

If the player is visiting a plane where time passes by so quickly, maybe staying there for prolonged periods could also age him significantly, like say 1 year for every hour. He'd get all the physical penalties but not the mental ones, since he hasn't actually gotten wiser over time. That way, he could get his kicks a couple of times, but not without consequences. If the player complains that the "fast aging" trait isn't in the rules, the DM could say he tweaked the rules a bit to accommodate a plane with 1:4800 fast time.

[Pyro_Azer]

If the player is visiting a plane where time passes by so quickly, maybe staying there for prolonged periods could also age him significantly, like say 1 year for every hour. He'd get all the physical penalties but not the mental ones, since he hasn't actually gotten wiser over time. That way, he could get his kicks a couple of times, but not without consequences. If the player complains that the "fast aging" trait isn't in the rules, the DM could say he tweaked the rules a bit to accommodate a plane with 1:4800 fast time.

Unlikely to work. If the player was able to convince three different GMs to let in all sorts of nonsense than he is either very good at winning arguments or very persistent at arguing. Giving a legitimate reason for the player to cry foul will only add fuel to the fire. It is far better to say "I am the GM and I feel that is too powerful for my campaign. I am not allowing it." than to attempt to alter the rules to hose him.

[holywhippet]

Back when V suggested plane shifting to get some diamonds I talked about it with my DM. He suggested having the player appear inside of solid rock (since they can't target a safe arrival point). I suggested this scenario "You appear in a vast cave with a half dozen elder earth elementals, they appear to be arguing which one of the toughest. They spot you and decide they can use you to prove themselves".

[Claudius Maximus]

Is that really the sort of thing you'd bust out the rocks for like that? That just sounds like a rational plan to me.

[holywhippet]

Is that really the sort of thing you'd bust out the rocks for like that? That just sounds like a rational plan to me.

Letting the players drop in on a plane to mine for valuable gemstones would be kind of game breaking in terms of WBL if you let them. It would be akin to teleporting into the king's treasury, loading up your bag of holding and teleporting out again.

[Flickerdart]

Whereas letting players fight monsters for gemstones is a good solution to the problem of players wanting gemstones, because it's what the game dynamic actually is. Just having the spell isn't enough to let them get free stuff, they need to work for it! Which, coincidentally, includes being able to find precious stones in an infinite expanse of earth, and then getting them out with any sort of speed.

[zmasterofjersey]

But being under the soul splice and the conjuration specialist, I'm pretty sure V could have casted Greater Plane Shift to not get into a predicament like that.

End of oots talk, back to reading thread.

[holywhippet]

But being under the soul splice and the conjuration specialist, I'm pretty sure V could have casted Greater Plane Shift to not get into a predicament like that.

Cast GPS maybe (never really noticed that was the shortened initials of that spell, kind of appropriate really) but I doubt V has ever been to the other planes so it would be questionable if V knew a safe landing zone.

[JaronK]

If the player is visiting a plane where time passes by so quickly, maybe staying there for prolonged periods could also age him significantly, like say 1 year for every hour. He'd get all the physical penalties but not the mental ones, since he hasn't actually gotten wiser over time. That way, he could get his kicks a couple of times, but not without consequences. If the player complains that the "fast aging" trait isn't in the rules, the DM could say he tweaked the rules a bit to accommodate a plane with 1:4800 fast time.

At least when using Genesis planes, you always add in the Timeless trait, which makes it so when you leave the plane you age as though you'd been on the material plane the whole time. As such, a Flowing Time 1000000 Timeless Plane seems to move one million times faster, but you only age as though you were on the material plane.

JaronK

[hewhosaysfish]

On the subject of the Genesis spell, I believe the argument goes like this:

Spell Genesis:



The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires.



Psionic Genesis:


You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This power cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). You must add these details in some other fashion if you desire. You can’t create lingering psionic effects with this power; you have to add those separately, if desired. Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane.


1) Psionics Genesis decribes what you can determine about the environment of the demiplane i.e. "[reflect] most any desire you can visualize".
2) It then goes on to describe what you can't do with it (like muck around with time or make the ground out of platinum).
3) The fact the it explicitly states that you can't determine these factors implies that if such limitation weren't in place then the previous statement of the things you can do (most any desire you can visualize) would enable you to do so.
4) The description of what you can do with Spell Genesis is almost word-for-wordthe same as the description of what you can do with Psionic Genesis...
5)...but Spell Genesis does not not follow it with the same caveats about not tinkering with time and such.

[TriForce]

on the issue of the problem player, just rule 2 simple things, every game he plays:

1: 8 hours of rest before you can get spells, AND only gain spells once every 24 hours. as pointed out, thats how the rules work, and you could even rule that it has to be 24 material plane hours, altough that might be pushing it a bit

2: no rule, book, supplemental allowed that the DM doesnt know. 2nd edion god? never heard of it, find something else. obscure class? not in any of the books ive read. dragon magazine? and next you pull out the x-man comics, it wouldnt make a difference.

you might also want to point out that every time the player wants to abuse the rules by lieing about what something does, it might displease the gods (as in, a large thunderbolt comes from the scy, you are now permanently deaf, pray that the next wont take out your entire head)

[Zherog]

you might also want to point out that every time the player wants to abuse the rules by lieing about what something does, it might displease the gods (as in, a large thunderbolt comes from the scy, you are now permanently deaf, pray that the next wont take out your entire head)

Solving out of character issues with in character consequences is the completely wrong way to deal with an issue. In my opinion, of course. If the problem is out of character (like this one) deal with it out of character.

[CTrees]

So in either Spelljammer or a campaign high enough level to allow for players crafting a functional space shuttle... An astronaut cleric of Pelor, in geosynchronous orbit, would hit "sunrise" something like once every hour and a half, assuming a planet of the same size as earth?

[TriForce]

Solving out of character issues with in character consequences is the completely wrong way to deal with an issue. In my opinion, of course. If the problem is out of character (like this one) deal with it out of character.

while i agree its not exactly a good solution, i usually use whatever works while DM-ing, i had a player, who always twisted the spells he used, like "forgetting" limitations/ components needed, and all that sort of stuff. he is at least as experienced player as myself, and i asked him to stop doing that after the first 20 times or so. ofc, he didnt. it was at that time that i ruled that everytime he used a spell in a way that was simply impossible, i would be the one deciding what the effect of the spell was going to be. usually that would translate to the spell blowing up in his face. after that, he never did that kinda stuff with me as DM again.

[Randomguy]

This player really needs to be shown the neverending dungeon thread: He'd be right at home there.

[Rentok]

Alrighty, well, as oen of the DM's in question, I feel like my 10 cents should get thrown in here.

Now, first I should point out that I have actually tried talking to this player a couple times about things. My campaign is only 3 sessions in at this point, and I've only had one conversation with him over stuff his druid was using. The others were over things that, as a simple PC and not a DM, I couldn't actually force him to change.

He's stubborn, and believes he knows the rules better than the rest of us. Thus, when we bring something up, he will either quote some other source, claim "interpretation", or state that we are simply wrong. Now, normally, this means that we can't get him to change anything.

However, I have noticed, that when talking to him as a DM about problems with the character in my campaign, he is much more pliable. Mostly because even if he thinks I'm wrong, hey, I have a giant rule 0 that makes me right no matter what. While I try my best to keep to the rules as they are, I get the feeling he thinks I'm altering them to nerf him. Which I would actually do, if I weren't concerned about actually being fair.

Now, he's playing a Bat Druid (which I allowed him to re-fluff into an anthropomorphic owl, because I'm a nice guy and decided to let him use the powerful race instead of having to run an anthro owl, since the fluff doesn't actually make any difference mechanically. I once had a DM allow me to do this in calling my Elf a Dryad, because my character concept was a Dryad, but the campaign was slated to start at level 1. It's an easy way to let people play what they want, without having to go hunting through rulebooks for obscure ways to make it work.) with Natural Bond and (initially) greenbound summoning. With what was initially a Dire Bat companion, and a god that let him wear metal. I made a mistake, and OK'd the character without taking a closer look at the ruling. I trusted him to run things by me if they weren't obviously allowed. (Example, I wouldn't ask a player to check with me if having power attack would allow him to, well, power attack) I myself am not extremely familiar with most classes. (I know factotums, warlocks, knights, barbarians, bards, sorcerers, monks, rangers, and fighters, since I've actually played those.) Upon closer inspection, upon being notified by Major that he was doing some odd things, I noticed some mistakes. First off, Mielikki.

My campaign is rather... basic. My setting is not fully fleshed out, I am kind of improvising most of what the party encounters. Largely because it's free form. I am giving them some obvious plot hooks, but it's entirely up to them if they bite or not. By improvising it all I can give them a decent game, no matter what they decide to do. (I drop hints as they go towards what will happen in the future, and by dropping these hints, I give myself some idea as to what that future will be, if they stay on-course, so I can have encounters prepared a few minutes ahead of them, mostly.) Now, this means, unfortunately, that my pantheon of deities is not actually... ready. Mielikki is not one of them, however. Now, the Monk in the party has a deity that also is not one of them. However, seeing as the monk doesn't actually get anything from his deity... He's allowed to believe in false gods.

Second, the dire bat. He claimed interpretation on Natural Bond, that it would allow him to take the Dire Bat (normally obtainable at 4th level) from level one, because 1-3+3=1. I said otherwise, and he let it go. I'm a little disappointed that he didn't check with me first.

And finally, Greenbound summoning. Technically, he isn't doing anything wrong by taking it. However, it is so clearly overpowered, I would hope anyone thinking of taking it would think to run it past their DM. Unless, you know, the DM has said that he's going to try to kill the party, so they had better be as powerful as they can get. I have mentioned numerous times that I had been expecting fighters and barbarians, and that the campaign was designed to be playable by anyone. There is no need for him to have the feat. After discussing it, I decided that it should probably work like metamagic, in that it would raise the spell level of a spell prepared with it by 2. He complained that this made it bad. I decided, that anything less made it too strong, but allowed for him to re-select the feat, since I changed it on him. He was stuck with natural bond, though. Even if he couldn't get a Dire bat at 3rd, it's still a useful feat, especially if he decides that now that he IS level 4, he wants to find a Dire Bat.


I asked him if he would consider playing a non-ToB martial character in the event that his druid bites it (not implying I would try to kill him, but his druid came a hair's breadth and a new player away from death. He was only saved because I was introducing Major's character a that point, and Major's rogue happens to have a belt of healing. My monster happened to roll 20, 19, 20 on it's attacks aimed at him. He went from full to -3 in one shot, without me fudging anything as punishment- I feel punishing characters in game is only a very last resort.)

Anyways, he flat out refused to consider a non-ToB martial class. SO I think there may be some problems there. He says he hates all non-ToB martial classes. Now, that is a LOT of classes, and I doubt he's played them all. Besides which, the party is currently consisting of 3 arcane squishies, a monk (reworked with homebrew to make it more viable, and then loaded up with a vow of poverty in feat selection), his druid, and a rogue. I feel they could use more balance, and he seemed the most likely to die, due to being relatively squishy, and a "melee caster" by his own words.





Long story short, he seems somewhat reasonable when met with a firm DM. However, Toku, the DM for Pantheon- wherein he played a dread necromancer (a silly build that was rediculously broken and over optimized, as well as having a bland and nonexistant RP persona) followed by a teleport-happy wizard once the necro got written out- is a bit too lenient, and at this point I honestly think just wants the campaign over with so he can start something else, to deal with the player.

[TriForce]

Alrighty, well, as oen of the DM's in question, I feel like my 10 cents should get thrown in here.

Now, first I should point out that I have actually tried talking to this player a couple times about things. My campaign is only 3 sessions in at this point, and I've only had one conversation with him over stuff his druid was using. The others were over things that, as a simple PC and not a DM, I couldn't actually force him to change.

He's stubborn, and believes he knows the rules better than the rest of us. Thus, when we bring something up, he will either quote some other source, claim "interpretation", or state that we are simply wrong. Now, normally, this means that we can't get him to change anything.

However, I have noticed, that when talking to him as a DM about problems with the character in my campaign, he is much more pliable. Mostly because even if he thinks I'm wrong, hey, I have a giant rule 0 that makes me right no matter what. While I try my best to keep to the rules as they are, I get the feeling he thinks I'm altering them to nerf him. Which I would actually do, if I weren't concerned about actually being fair.

Now, he's playing a Bat Druid (which I allowed him to re-fluff into an anthropomorphic owl, because I'm a nice guy and decided to let him use the powerful race instead of having to run an anthro owl, since the fluff doesn't actually make any difference mechanically. I once had a DM allow me to do this in calling my Elf a Dryad, because my character concept was a Dryad, but the campaign was slated to start at level 1. It's an easy way to let people play what they want, without having to go hunting through rulebooks for obscure ways to make it work.) with Natural Bond and (initially) greenbound summoning. With what was initially a Dire Bat companion, and a god that let him wear metal. I made a mistake, and OK'd the character without taking a closer look at the ruling. I trusted him to run things by me if they weren't obviously allowed. (Example, I wouldn't ask a player to check with me if having power attack would allow him to, well, power attack) I myself am not extremely familiar with most classes. (I know factotums, warlocks, knights, barbarians, bards, sorcerers, monks, rangers, and fighters, since I've actually played those.) Upon closer inspection, upon being notified by Major that he was doing some odd things, I noticed some mistakes. First off, Mielikki.

My campaign is rather... basic. My setting is not fully fleshed out, I am kind of improvising most of what the party encounters. Largely because it's free form. I am giving them some obvious plot hooks, but it's entirely up to them if they bite or not. By improvising it all I can give them a decent game, no matter what they decide to do. (I drop hints as they go towards what will happen in the future, and by dropping these hints, I give myself some idea as to what that future will be, if they stay on-course, so I can have encounters prepared a few minutes ahead of them, mostly.) Now, this means, unfortunately, that my pantheon of deities is not actually... ready. Mielikki is not one of them, however. Now, the Monk in the party has a deity that also is not one of them. However, seeing as the monk doesn't actually get anything from his deity... He's allowed to believe in false gods.

Second, the dire bat. He claimed interpretation on Natural Bond, that it would allow him to take the Dire Bat (normally obtainable at 4th level) from level one, because 1-3+3=1. I said otherwise, and he let it go. I'm a little disappointed that he didn't check with me first.

And finally, Greenbound summoning. Technically, he isn't doing anything wrong by taking it. However, it is so clearly overpowered, I would hope anyone thinking of taking it would think to run it past their DM. Unless, you know, the DM has said that he's going to try to kill the party, so they had better be as powerful as they can get. I have mentioned numerous times that I had been expecting fighters and barbarians, and that the campaign was designed to be playable by anyone. There is no need for him to have the feat. After discussing it, I decided that it should probably work like metamagic, in that it would raise the spell level of a spell prepared with it by 2. He complained that this made it bad. I decided, that anything less made it too strong, but allowed for him to re-select the feat, since I changed it on him. He was stuck with natural bond, though. Even if he couldn't get a Dire bat at 3rd, it's still a useful feat, especially if he decides that now that he IS level 4, he wants to find a Dire Bat.


I asked him if he would consider playing a non-ToB martial character in the event that his druid bites it (not implying I would try to kill him, but his druid came a hair's breadth and a new player away from death. He was only saved because I was introducing Major's character a that point, and Major's rogue happens to have a belt of healing. My monster happened to roll 20, 19, 20 on it's attacks aimed at him. He went from full to -3 in one shot, without me fudging anything as punishment- I feel punishing characters in game is only a very last resort.)

Anyways, he flat out refused to consider a non-ToB martial class. SO I think there may be some problems there. He says he hates all non-ToB martial classes. Now, that is a LOT of classes, and I doubt he's played them all. Besides which, the party is currently consisting of 3 arcane squishies, a monk (reworked with homebrew to make it more viable, and then loaded up with a vow of poverty in feat selection), his druid, and a rogue. I feel they could use more balance, and he seemed the most likely to die, due to being relatively squishy, and a "melee caster" by his own words.





Long story short, he seems somewhat reasonable when met with a firm DM. However, Toku, the DM for Pantheon- wherein he played a dread necromancer (a silly build that was rediculously broken and over optimized, as well as having a bland and nonexistant RP persona) followed by a teleport-happy wizard once the necro got written out- is a bit too lenient, and at this point I honestly think just wants the campaign over with so he can start something else, to deal with the player.

as im reading this, it seems to me that this player will do whatever he can get away with. "interpertation" is pure bull****, and druids in 3th and 3.5 dont even use gods beyond what a normal figher or even peasant does, they CAN worship one, but it cant ever give them any bonuses anyway.

all in all, this player is simply ruining the game imho, let him come over to play mortal kombat, or risk (im sure he would be increadibly good at risk) but for gods sake, dont invite this person to DnD.

[Yuki Akuma]

So in either Spelljammer or a campaign high enough level to allow for players crafting a functional space shuttle... An astronaut cleric of Pelor, in geosynchronous orbit, would hit "sunrise" something like once every hour and a half, assuming a planet of the same size as earth?

I'd assume he'd do it just like Jewish or Islamic astronauts - treat local time as whatever it was where he left. It's much easier that way.

[tyckspoon]

I'd assume he'd do it just like Jewish or Islamic astronauts - treat local time as whatever it was where he left. It's much easier that way.

I figure clerics just get a little mental ping that says 'Hey, this is the holy time, pray for spells now.' Easier than trying to account for local timey-wimey weirdness or physical conditions that the writers never planned for anybody to deal with.

[Greenish]

Now, this means, unfortunately, that my pantheon of deities is not actually... ready. Mielikki is not one of them, however.Eh, maybe your pantheon has someone with a similar "nature & civilization hand in hand" approach who could allow it's druids to wear metal armour. It's not a big deal, what with all the other materials he might also use (dragonhide, blueice, darkleaf etc.).

Still, grabbing setting specific deities outside of the setting without asking the DM is not very thoughtful.


Second, the dire bat. He claimed interpretation on Natural Bond, that it would allow him to take the Dire Bat (normally obtainable at 4th level) from level one, because 1-3+3=1. I said otherwise, and he let it go. I'm a little disappointed that he didn't check with me first.I think you'd have to be at least 4th level to pick up any of the alternate animal companions, since Natural Bond doesn't allow you to ignore what the class feature actually says: "A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals."


Anyways, he flat out refused to consider a non-ToB martial class. SO I think there may be some problems there. He says he hates all non-ToB martial classes. Now, that is a LOT of classes, and I doubt he's played them all.Well, it depends a bit on your definition of a "martial class", but almost all non-ToB non-casters work the same: "I hit him again." "I Power Attack for X." "I charge."

That's barbarian, that's fighter, that's swashbuckler, warrior, knight, samurai, ranger, sohei or paladin.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah - Natural Bond does not let you exceed your character level, so you can't claim a Dire Bat before 4th level. It will, however, let you have a Dire Bat with the bonuses of a 4th level druid.

[Veyr]

Re: Greenbound Summoning — If you want to defend your choice of +2 Metamagic to him, you might point out that the template is CR +2, and the CRs of the creatures you can summon with Summon Nature's Ally tend to go up by 1 per spell level (so a creature 2 CR higher than what you could summon with Summon Nature's Ally I would be Summon Nature's Ally III).

The only concern I might have there is I'm not sure that a Greenbound (something off the SNA 1 list) is better than something than (something off the SNA 3 list), in which case he's right that it's not worth spending the feat on it.

I agree with you that it's a quite powerful feat and while in a high-powered game it might be appropriate (summons need a bit of investment to get good anyway), and certainly at higher levels the template isn't too big a deal, in a lower-power game it shouldn't have been used.


Re: non-Tome of Battle mundane martial classes — I completely agree with him. I haven't played all of them, but that hardly matters because they're all far-too-similar ("I full attack again" or "I charge again"), they're all poorly designed, and they're all (IMO) quite boring.

[Flame of Anor]

I just realized that Pelor probably isn't a very popular deity north of the arctic circle or south of the antarctic circle. :smalltongue:

I just had the coolest idea for a Pelor's Polars prestige class... :smallbiggrin:

[Godskook]

However, I have noticed, that when talking to him as a DM about problems with the character in my campaign, he is much more pliable. Mostly because even if he thinks I'm wrong, hey, I have a giant rule 0 that makes me right no matter what.

This is a good sign. That means that if the DMs learn how to handle him, he'll be controllable enough to be tollerable.


While I try my best to keep to the rules as they are, I get the feeling he thinks I'm altering them to nerf him. Which I would actually do, if I weren't concerned about actually being fair.

1.You're confused about what 'fair' means as a DM. It doesn't mean "everyone plays by the rules". Hell, I'm not even sure what it means as a DM, but you're crafting a gaming experience, he's counter-acting you. You're within your rights as DM to enforce whatever rule 0s you need to in order to bring him into the same gaming experience as your other players.

2.RAW is *NOT FAIR*. Let's start with the meme: Pun-pun is 100% RAW. RAI is *NOT FAIR*. Caster > Melee. You want fair, *DON'T* go by the rules. Start houseruling.


Now, he's playing a Bat Druid (which I allowed him to re-fluff into an anthropomorphic owl, because I'm a nice guy and decided to let him use the powerful race instead of having to run an anthro owl, since the fluff doesn't actually make any difference mechanically. I once had a DM allow me to do this in calling my Elf a Dryad, because my character concept was a Dryad, but the campaign was slated to start at level 1. It's an easy way to let people play what they want, without having to go hunting through rulebooks for obscure ways to make it work.)

Fine idea in theory, terrible in practice with this guy. Honestly, I wouldn't let him play a bat in the first place, let alone refluff.


with Natural Bond and (initially) greenbound summoning. With what was initially a Dire Bat companion, and a god that let him wear metal. I made a mistake, and OK'd the character without taking a closer look at the ruling. I trusted him to run things by me if they weren't obviously allowed. (Example, I wouldn't ask a player to check with me if having power attack would allow him to, well, power attack) I myself am not extremely familiar with most classes. (I know factotums, warlocks, knights, barbarians, bards, sorcerers, monks, rangers, and fighters, since I've actually played those.) Upon closer inspection, upon being notified by Major that he was doing some odd things, I noticed some mistakes. First off, Mielikki.

I'd start requiring him to run *ALL* character choices that aren't blatantly obvious, such as:
-non-PHB races
-uncommon spells(pick your books)
-uncommon feats
-Gods, unless pre-approved for your campaign setting
-Any combo that requires 2+ build pieces to explain
-Any combo that makes assumptions about the campaign setting


He's allowed to believe in false gods.

Oddly, so is the cleric and druid. Mechanically, D&D deities are generous enough to offer casting to patrons that don't even know their name, as long as the caster shares some alignment and ideology. Problem is, the 'false god' won't provide the domains and other granted abilities.

'Course, the metal thing isn't too big a deal, since there's an A&E guide material that's basically mithral for druids, and only works on normally 'metal' armor. Assuming Darkleaf is available in your campaign.


I asked him if he would consider playing a non-ToB martial character in the event that his druid bites it......

Anyways, he flat out refused to consider a non-ToB martial class. SO I think there may be some problems there. He says he hates all non-ToB martial classes. Now, that is a LOT of classes, and I doubt he's played them all. Besides which, the party is currently consisting of 3 arcane squishies, a monk (reworked with homebrew to make it more viable, and then loaded up with a vow of poverty in feat selection), his druid, and a rogue. I feel they could use more balance, and he seemed the most likely to die, due to being relatively squishy, and a "melee caster" by his own words.

1.I'm not sure why you're wanting him to play a non-ToB martial class, unless its to nerf him, and in which case, fine. That's understandable.

2.Depends on what you consider a 'martial class'. If you're counting things without class access to magic(swashbuckler, rogue, fighter, barbarian), then I understand the point, since they wind up being 1-trick ponies for 90% of builds. If you're including things like Totemist, Binder, or Psychic Warrior, then he's off his rocker.

[Kyouhen]

Read through the first page but don't really have time to read through the rest of the thread right now, just thought I'd throw this out there.

I couldn't help but notice that everyone mentioning problems with the planar travel neglected one very fun thing the DMs should keep track of while the player spends time resting for his spells. How much time he's spent on that plane. If you enforce that rule where he can only restore his spells once per day he's got to spend 24 hours on that plane. And if he's doing this every encounter, he's going to be aging at a stupidly high rate. Keep track of the character's age and how many days he's spent on the other plane. See what happens when the player realizes his character's advanced two age categories and is going to die if he keeps doing that. :smalltongue:

[KillianHawkeye]

At least when using Genesis planes, you always add in the Timeless trait, which makes it so when you leave the plane you age as though you'd been on the material plane the whole time. As such, a Flowing Time 1000000 Timeless Plane seems to move one million times faster, but you only age as though you were on the material plane.

JaronK

I'm pretty sure you can't have flowing time and timeless on the same plane, since those are both options for the time trait. You have to pick one or the other.