First time playing a Binder

[HappyBlanket]

The Binder handbook floating around the internet says that Binders are one of the more confusing classes in the game, and it explicitly says not to play one if you're a new player. Well, I've been playing D&D for about five months now, and I've recently created a Binder for an upcoming PbP game.

Cause that sounds like such a great idea.

That said, I'm worried I might be underestimating just how complex this class is. I mean, I've been told that Binders are bad choices for new players, but looking through ToM, I'm not seeing anything that's particularly bothersome. So, what's the big deal? Am I just missing something? Or did the handbook exaggerate?

Also, are there any other books with Binder support outside ToM? It's not like I've read many of the books outside Core and Complete, and I never even heard of the class before I found SCS's campaign journals. Don't get me wrong, it's not as if all the vestiges and feats in ToM aren't enough; I just want to know if there are more options out there.

If it matters at all (I don't think it does), we're starting at level 2. 40(!) point buy, giving me 18/16/18/10/08/18 for stats. All books are available, as are two traits and flaws. The other party members have yet to be determined.

Naturally, I'm also looking for any other tips for playing this hipster cleric.

[Big Fau]

Most of the support for the Binder are web enhancements.


As for complexity, it's OK if you follow the recommendations and don't try to mix the styles too much. One thing to keep in mind is that failing the Binding check does not prevent the vestige from being bound, only prevents you from suppressing the sign.

[Psyren]

There's another vestige in... Dragon Magic? That should be it really.

With stats like that I personally think you should theurge it up with Anima Mage or Tenebrous Apostate. If not, then at the very least, gish it up with KotSS.

The only thing that's really bad about them learning-curve wise - it's one thing to know "I can do almost anything!" and another thing to actually pick the right vestiges to be able to pull off the role your party needs.


Also, when evaluating a vestige, keep in mind which of their powers have the cooldown and which don't. You can for instance look at a vestige like Andras, think "hey, I can be a paladin!" then smite something with him and be left thinking how much he sucks.

[sonofzeal]

I recommend printing out your vestiges on cards. The class isn't bad if you always stay with the same vetiges, but since the strength of the class is its ability to adapt, and you don't want to be constantly flipping around every two minutes, and you could have several vetiges at the same time, the only real solution is to prepare these things ahead of time.

[Thurbane]

Here's the list of "official" vetiges outside of ToM, as far as I know:

(3rd) Ahazu (Dungeon #148)
(3rd) Primus (Dragon #341)
(4th) Arete (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a))
(4th) Astaroth - Diabolus of Baator (Dragon #357)
(4th) Astaroth - The Unjustly Fallen (Cityscape w/e (http://69.8.198.251/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a))
(4th) Cabiri (Dragon #357)
(4th) Kas (Dragon #341)
(6th) Desharis (Cityscape w/e (http://69.8.198.251/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a))
(6th) The Triad (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a))
(6th) Vanus (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060407a))
(6th) Zceryll (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718))
(7th) Ansitif (Dragon #357)
(8th) Abysm (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a))
(8th) Ashardolon (Dragon Magic)

[Greenish]

There's another vestige in... Dragon Magic?Yeah, Ashardalon, pyre of the unborn.

[Moginheden]

I haven't actually played a full binder, just someone who blew all their feats to emulate one, so maybe it's better as a full class but I found I was constantly getting into situations where I'd love to have a different vestige bound than the one I needed a minute ago, and some of them have requirements that you can't have bound X within the last day, (plus the time required to summon one even if you do meet the requirements.)

Think of a wizard who has to prepare his spells at the beginning of the day before the DM has told you what they are throwing at you for the day. Then realize you only get a few vestages so you can't just grab a variety to be ready for anything.

If you know what you are going to face, a binder can be awesome, but I never knew what vestage the situation warranted till it was too late to get it.

[Lateral]

Here's the list of "official" vetiges outside of ToM, as far as I know:

(3rd) Ahazu (Dungeon #148)
(3rd) Primus (Dragon #341)
(4th) Arete (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a))
(4th) Astaroth - Diabolus of Baator (Dragon #357)
(4th) Astaroth - The Unjustly Fallen (Cityscape w/e (http://69.8.198.251/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a))
(4th) Cabiri (Dragon #357)
(4th) Kas (Dragon #341)
(6th) Desharis (Cityscape w/e (http://69.8.198.251/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a))
(6th) The Triad (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a))
(6th) Vanus (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060407a))
(6th) Zceryll (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718))
(7th) Ansitif (Dragon #357)
(8th) Abysm (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a))
(8th) Ashardolon (Dragon Magic)
Zceryll in particular is extremely powerful- it, in addition to a few others, can push the binder up to a tier 2.

[Shadowleaf]

The biggest problem with Binders - as already mentioned by others - is the delay in being able to adapt to a situation. I suggest talking it over with your DM, and see if you can get Rapid Binding (I think that's the feat's name) and Expel Vestige combo to only take up something like two standard actions. Binders are pretty low-powered (barring extreme cheddar), and such a change wouldn't mess up game balance, but would make the Binder tons more playable.
You could fluff the have-to-draw-sigil-thing as having them tattooed on your body or pre-drawn on parchment, as to circumvent the draw-on-surface requirement. Notice that this isn't rules sound, as by the rules, you have to draw the Sigil before you can bind.

[Moginheden]

You could fluff the have-to-draw-sigil-thing as having them tattooed on your body or pre-drawn on parchment, as to circumvent the draw-on-surface requirement. Notice that this isn't rules sound, as by the rules, you have to draw the Sigil before you can bind.

Actually by RAW you can do this with items, (not sure if they were common or if they might be minor artifacts, but they seemed pretty low powered and as a DM I'd allow them even in a low level game.)

One of them was a set of teeth you replace one of your teeth with IIRC

[Greenish]

One of them was a set of teeth you replace one of your teeth with IIRCTeeth of Dalver-Nahl are normal magic items usable by anyone, though they do cause you to manifest the sign (and the influence) of the vestige they relate to.

[Psyren]

I haven't actually played a full binder, just someone who blew all their feats to emulate one, so maybe it's better as a full class but I found I was constantly getting into situations where I'd love to have a different vestige bound than the one I needed a minute ago, and some of them have requirements that you can't have bound X within the last day, (plus the time required to summon one even if you do meet the requirements.)

There's a feat to ignore the requirement stuff. You pretty much need it to be a successful Binder unless your DM doesn't pay attention, because the vestiges have absolutely no rhyme or reason for you to go by.


Think of a wizard who has to prepare his spells at the beginning of the day before the DM has told you what they are throwing at you for the day. Then realize you only get a few vestages so you can't just grab a variety to be ready for anything.

If you know what you are going to face, a binder can be awesome, but I never knew what vestage the situation warranted till it was too late to get it.

It delays you a bit in combat but you can always leave a slot open and rush your binding check.

And honestly there are some vestiges it's always a good idea to have bound depending on your role. If you're doing melee there's very little reason not to have Paimon or Savnok, and if you're doing a more caster-y role Focalor and Karsus are safe bets. If you're the face, your day should pretty much start off with Naberius and breakfast (assuming you even released him.) And Zceryll is a no-brainer for every single Binder allowed to use her, period.

[sreservoir]

one of the dragon magazine ones has basically at-will divination, so bind it when you have time and know roughly what you'll want to bind for the next week.

[Thurbane]

@ Moginheden: I wouldn't get too hung up on not having the right vestiges bound for a certain situation - most have decent "general" abilities that are applicable to most combats and a lot of out of combat situations. If you can get some intel in advance of what you're facing, all the better, as you can bind specific vestiges...but you're not going to come accross many situations where you have nothing to do but sit on your hands.

[Psyren]

@ Moginheden: I wouldn't get too hung up on not having the right vestiges bound for a certain situation - most have decent "general" abilities that are applicable to most combats and a lot of out of combat situations. If you can get some intel in advance of what you're facing, all the better, as you can bind specific vestiges...but you're not going to come accross many situations where you have nothing to do but sit on your hands.

This. Hell, if you're a Knight of the Sacred Seal, even having all the wrong vestiges bound makes you better off than a fighter.

[HappyBlanket]

As far as combat goes, yes, KotSS is what I was looking for. But maybe Anima Mage if that seems more appropriate. Actually, I named my character Anima before I even saw the prestige class. Creepy stuff, but at least it made me feel like I was on the right track fluff wise.
The 5-turn cool down was something I was worried about, so I'll keep that in mind.

Thurbane, I'm taking that post and bookmarking it. Thanks a bunch!... Ooooh... Psions. Interesting. This campaign happens to be psion centric. And what's this? Zceryll has the Mindsight feat?

Rapid Binding and Expel Vestige are, of course, well engraved into my feat selections. I'm taking RB as soon as I meet the prerequisites. I also took Ignore Special Requirements as one of my starter feats, so I don't need to bother with Haagenti's Giant Language or Chuco's "I don't wanna play with that vestige" complex. Ick.

Also, it just so happens that I only have one flaw so far. I'm level 2, and I have the feats Expel Vestige, Improved Binding, and Ignore Special Requirements. Should I go for another flaw to get another feat? What feat? I don't qualify for the feats in ToM, with the exception of Favored Vestige... And I don't want Favored Vestige until I can apply it to a better Vestige.

[Private-Prinny]

All of the useful tips about Binders have already been handed out, so I'll point out something else instead.


40(!) point buy, giving me 18/16/18/10/08/18 for stats.

Unless your DM specifically told you so, point-buy does not work that way. Once you get past 14 in a stat, the exchange rate isn't 1:1. Follow this table.

{table=head]Stat|Cost

8|0

9|1

10|2

11|3

12|4

13|5

14|6

15|8

16|10

17|13

18|16[/table]

What you have there is a 60-Point array (16+10+16+2+0+16), not 40.

[HappyBlanket]

Unless your DM specifically told you so, point-buy does not work that way. Once you get past 14 in a stat, the exchange rate isn't 1:1. Follow this table.

He said it checked out, but I kinda figured something was wrong. I'll bring it up.
Yerp. Turns out having three 18s at level two was somewhat south of accurate. Stats are 14/14/16/10/08/18.