Illusions on undead..

[_felagund]

hey guys,

i ve some doubts about undead and life sense on illusion school.

we know that invisibility not works for undead thx to life sense, so may i presume some illusions like mirror image, silent image, displacement also fail?

[panaikhan]

Mindless undead cannot be fooled by illusions, sinse there is (imho) nothing to fool.
Self-aware undead that have life sense won't be fooled by 'displacement' illusions on living creatures, but could be fooled by illusions of, or illusions cast on, constructs and other such things.

Do you have a context in mind?

[_felagund]

Mindless undead cannot be fooled by illusions, sinse there is (imho) nothing to fool.
Self-aware undead that have life sense won't be fooled by 'displacement' illusions on living creatures, but could be fooled by illusions of, or illusions cast on, constructs and other such things.

Do you have a context in mind?

say i created an Illusory Wall, and no living behind, i guess this works for undead, but when i stand behind the wall, illusion fails? right?

[panaikhan]

Pertaining to your example.

Mindless undead simply wouldn't 'see' the wall.
Self-aware undead will be able to detect you, but unless they have reason to believe your wall is illusionary (e.g. it wasn't there a moment ago) there is nothing to stop them thinking you are on the other side of a normal wall.

Examining the wall would get them a saving throw.

Of course, to non-corporeal undead, all walls are "illusionary"...

[The Random NPC]

I don't recall if illusions simply don't work on the mindless, but assuming they do, what causes the mindless undead to be able to tell that the wall is not there?
There are enough spells that summon walls that illusions shouldn't be your first guess without other qualifiers.

[Shadowknight12]

Not all undead have Lifesense. In core, as far as I know, only the Dread Wraith has this ability. Invisibility DOES fool the undead (though they might have other ways to perceive you, such as Blindsense, Scent, good Listen checks, Tremorsense, True Seeing, See Invisibility, etc). There's a feat in Libris Mortis that grants Lifesense to the undead that takes it, but that's an option and therefore DM-dependant.

That said, Some Illusions Auto-Fail Versus Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion). Those illusions are Patterns and Phantasms, which are considered to be mind-affecting effects. Figments (such as an Illusory Wall) does succeed versus undead. An undead, mindless or not, is subject to the same Will save to disbelief as any other creature. They are only immune to Phantasms and Patterns.

Hiding behind an Illusory Wall is effective against all kinds of undead. Just pray they don't have other ways to detect you.

[_felagund]

Not all undead have Lifesense. In core, as far as I know, only the Dread Wraith has this ability. Invisibility DOES fool the undead (though they might have other ways to perceive you, such as Blindsense, Scent, good Listen checks, Tremorsense, True Seeing, See Invisibility, etc). There's a feat in Libris Mortis that grants Lifesense to the undead that takes it, but that's an option and therefore DM-dependant.

That said, Some Illusions Auto-Fail Versus Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion). Those illusions are Patterns and Phantasms, which are considered to be mind-affecting effects. Figments (such as an Illusory Wall) does succeed versus undead. An undead, mindless or not, is subject to the same Will save to disbelief as any other creature. They are only immune to Phantasms and Patterns.

Hiding behind an Illusory Wall is effective against all kinds of undead. Just pray they don't have other ways to detect you.

thx that was useful

[Yuki Akuma]

Uh.

Not all illusions are Mind-Affecting.

All undead are immune to Mind-Affecting spells, not Illusions in general. Figments (like Illusory Wall) fool the senses, not the mind. Glamers (like Invisibility) cause an actual, real change in the object they affect - creatures targeted by Invisibility are actually invisible. No trickery involved.

[The Random NPC]

I once had a GM that decided that the mindless undead would continue to walk towards the silent image wall because that was the last place they saw us. It wasn't entirely without merit, in zombie movies the zombies will try to bash down doors that people try to hide behind. Since our "door" didn't really exist they just passed through.