League of Legends XVI: Alas, Poor Game Balance, I Knew Him, Morello

[Math_Mage]

League of Legends XVI:
Alas, Poor Game Balance, I Knew Him, Morello



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GUIDES

Into the Wild - Guide to Being a Better Jungler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10867111#post10867111) by Mtg_player_zach
Laser Bear Udyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9657101&postcount=39), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Rammus: Can't touch this (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=258919), by Math_Mage
Seizing the fourth digit: Playing your way out of Elo Hell. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=341821) by Math_Mage
Twitch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10267058&postcount=1448), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Faulty and Raistlin's Quick Build Database: Notes and Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10942497&postcount=1004) by Faulty and Raistlin
Jungle Akali (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10498621&postcount=1358) by Djinn
How to play everyone's favourite Lightning Squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10518034&postcount=154) by Dogmantra
Lee Sin (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=636475) by Dralnu
Super Serious Rumble Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11052926&postcount=904) by Dogmantra
Jax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11252389&postcount=652) by Mtg_player_zach
OH SNAP Morgana Can Jungle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11295698&postcount=1238) by Dogmantra

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Jungle Janna! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6wm9iaNmM)
How to Win Every Game in League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsTE1vpoXM)
Panic at the Nexus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7WlCbaLI3I)
Sunfire Cape Sunday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgjfX6crjrg)
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e.o.n Shen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHs_cGUPQ3M&feature=related)
Vendrim-Ionia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3E2UQMe3k&hd=1)
Pwn ur FACE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf9VSDt0EN4)
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Chibi Champions (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=763895) by pika7
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TRAVEL BACK IN TIME: PREVIOUS THREADS
League of Legends XV: Robots Are Better Than Trees (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201024)
League of Legends XIV: We're So Broken That We're OP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198948)
League of Legends XIII: Our Skill is Hard to Deny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196765)
League of Legends XII: It's Worth It Because I Said So In The Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194886)
League of Legends XI: It's Hard to Post Like This in Heels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192695)
League of Legends X: Armored Armadillo Delivers Ambiguous Affirmative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10646164#post10646164)
League of Legends IX: New Thread Available! Only 6300 IP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188076)
League of Legends VIII: Gali-Os: They're idolicious! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185516)
League of Legends 7: Truly, Truly Outrageous! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182486)
League of Legends 6: Jannaaaaaaaaaa! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178334)
League of Legends 5: Tall Grass Used Garen! DEMACIAAA! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173805)
League of Legends 4:CAWCAWCAWCAWCAWCAW (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169616)
League of Legends 3: You only need to click once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164008s)
League of Legends Goes Where It Pleases 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158135)
League Of Legends: We post where we please. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139094)

[Dogmantra]

well then you know my policy on threads that AREN'T named after something I said
(you're all uncultured hacks absolutely)
TIME TO SPAM IT UP (or make really big long debates) TO FIFTY PAGES AND MAKE THE NEXT ONE MYSELF

To that end:
Ashe is underpowered
Shen was fine before the nerfs
Vlad is a well designed champion
Rumble needs more damage
Urgot's lane dominance needs a buff
Jungling is stupid
Tiamat is the best item in the game
Fiddlesticks is OP

Vayne. In general.

(and you've probably noticed this but the link to the previous thread is messed up)
(doubly also Orianna actually says "this is a fun game"

really Riot? you have to go that far?)

[Zeful]

I disagree.

[toasty]

Solo vs 1 is pretty fun (and easy) with Maokai.

Here's the deal: rush a Catalyst (unfortunately this advice comes from before it was nerfed but still it's a good item, maybe get a Philo stone too though) and then ze lane, as they may or may not say, is yours.

I would do this, if getting 2 philo stones before the 12 minute mark was so important. :smalltongue:


Saplings? Bah. One rank of 'em. Focus yourself some delicious Arcane Smash. Grab a Sheen after your Catalyst then you can do your absurd combo of Twisted Advance > Sheen > Arcane Smash > Sapling > Sheen whenever you want, and between your Catalyst (and Philo stone[s]) and your passive, you have crazy health retention meaning the only guys you can't trade with and come out on top are like Soraka and Vlad and stuff.

Yeah I'll have to try it. I'm just kinda a horrible solo laner unless I'm playing someone with stupid lane dominance/ability to survive (basically: Shen, Corki, Miss Fortune. Ashe sorta. I've gotten better).


And finally, he's a lot stronger if you don't build him so tanky. You can ignore him if he's built straight tank, my suggestion is RoA > Lich Bane > Hat if you can, tanky AP if you can't

The last game I played him I kinda needed to build mostly tanky because it was up to me and Warwick to initiate quite a bit. I ended up building 2 Philo Stones, Frozen Heart, Abyssal, Sunfire and finally Hourglass (see they had this crazy Vayne, I needed those 2 armor items).

[lord_khaine]

I dislike the current title, and are ready for debate this thead to oblivion, what topic can generate the most discussion?

[Dogmantra]

I would do this, if getting 2 philo stones before the 12 minute mark was so important. :smalltongue:

(then don't get two philo stones before 12 minutes)

That's the thing toasty is that you don't have to go through the motions for the sake of doing them. If the only reason you're getting two philo stones before 12 minutes is because they're OP then you can't complain about my AD LeBlanc.

After all, Infinity Edge is a very good item ;)

ALSO a while back I needed song lyrics for Ezreal rune page. Now I need one for Teemo. I have Cottontail Teemo too so that could open up more possibilities.

[ex cathedra]

This thread title is laaaaame. It's like rushing phantom dancers on Master Yi. Double Lame.


ALSO a while back I needed song lyrics for Ezreal rune page. Now I need one for Teemo. I have Cottontail Teemo too so that could open up more possibilities.

That's like... the skin for Teemo that doesn't have satellites, right?

I mean, did you consider when buying that skin that it lacked satellites?

Because, satellites, man.


italics, man.

[Dogmantra]

I mean, did you consider when buying that skin that it lacked satellites?

Because I only had enough RP for a 975.

It has Easter Eggs though.

[ex cathedra]

I guess that those are okay, too. :smalltongue:

In other news, this thread (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=763895) gets better all the time.

I mean... Dat Kass (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=191280&d=1307653500).

[Joran]

I dislike the current title, and are ready for debate this thead to oblivion, what topic can generate the most discussion?

Hmm...

1) [insert Champion here] is OP/UP.
2) Complain about KSing
3) Complain about ELO Hell
4) Complain about ELO being an inaccurate measure of skill
5) Elementz's tier list or tier lists in general
6) Anything patently wrong

[9mm]

I would do this, if getting 2 philo stones before the 12 minute mark was so important. :smalltongue:

Moakai only needs one philo stone, or any other gold/5 for that matter; though if you insist on getting 2 gold/5 make the second a HoG.

I prefer starting with health pendent: recall at around 750 gold or higher for boots and philo, Rush Catalyst, Blasting wand, and upgrade to RoA. Then get chain shirt, negation cloak, and upgrade boots. You can now safely buy a sheen, upgrade either Armor or MR as needed, or even just grab an Ageis. I find rushing sheen after your RoA leaves you to dependent on your ult to soak damage at the start of the mid game teamfights.

as for skills, Sapling is your main harrasment tool, lead your target so they land on them so you get at least the landing damage, as Saplings will often fine minions tasty kaboom bait.

[Makensha]

I dislike the current title, and are ready for debate this thead to oblivion, what topic can generate the most discussion?

Yeah, I hate the title.

So how IS Maokai nowadays? I have not really seen him do anything impressive in my entire memory of him (Except for taking on Jax 1v1 and smoking him :smallsmile:).

[toasty]

Yeah, I hate the title.

So how IS Maokai nowadays? I have not really seen him do anything impressive in my entire memory of him (Except for taking on Jax 1v1 and smoking him :smallsmile:).

Hmm... he seems fine. Not strong, not weak though. His ratios are okay, his ult is still kinda lackluster (though on a super short CD with or without 40% CDR). He doesn't have enough CC to be a Tank, but not exactly enough damage to be a really effective fullblown Caster.

[tribble]

Sheen is pretty good on him, I noticed that right away. In the event that the game goes on far too long and I have finished all my other potential recipies, should I go for a lichbane or a triforce?

[Math_Mage]

I can't tell if everyone's being serious about the title or tongue-poking-through-hole-in-cheek messing with me. It's bad for my blood pressure. :smalltongue: I mean, I can change it...


I guess that those are okay, too. :smalltongue:

In other news, this thread (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=763895) gets better all the time.

I mean... Dat Kass (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=191280&d=1307653500).

Gonna link this and the gender swaps in the OP.


Sheen is pretty good on him, I noticed that right away. In the event that the game goes on far too long and I have finished all my other potential recipies, should I go for a lichbane or a triforce?

FWIW, chu8 swears by Triforce on Maokai.

[St. Viers]

Hmm... he seems fine. Not strong, not weak though. His ratios are okay, his ult is still kinda lackluster (though on a super short CD with or without 40% CDR). He doesn't have enough CC to be a Tank, but not exactly enough damage to be a really effective fullblown Caster.

He's a support AP initiator with a very strong laning phase. His teamfight presence isn't the damage he puts out (unless you build him straight AP), but rather the short CD channel interrupt, a root, and his ult, which is like a tower in that it allows you to fight a numbers disadvantage--making him amazing for a team that has a dedicated split pusher.

I like building him as tanky AP--Ionian Stompers, Spirit Visage, and Shurelias, (for HP and CDR), ROA (early catalyst), Deathcap, Hourglass.

EDIT: Yeah, Triforce is good on him because he has a ridiculously high base attack.

[ex cathedra]

I can't tell if everyone's being serious about the title or tongue-poking-through-hole-in-cheek messing with me. It's bad for my blood pressure. I mean, I can change it.

I'm really not too terribly fond of it, but it's just a name. Chillax. :smallwink: Though, it strikes me as being slightly more low-brow than the Hamlet reference.


Gonna link this and the gender swaps in the OP.

While you're at it, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn-HoAPlg-c) might be of interest to some of our posters.

[Dogmantra]

Sheen is pretty good on him, I noticed that right away. In the event that the game goes on far too long and I have finished all my other potential recipies, should I go for a lichbane or a triforce?

Depends if you're building him straight tank or tanky AP. The former goes for Triforce, the latter for Lich Bane.


I can't tell if everyone's being serious about the title or tongue-poking-through-hole-in-cheek messing with me. It's bad for my blood pressure. :smalltongue: I mean, I can change it...

I am always serious.
(well actually I dunno partly I prefer the Hamlet because it's my idea and partly I prefer it because it's a joke about how unbalanced LoL is if you didn't get that one)

OKAY!
Here's the deal.
Gold/second is too good. Heart of Gold was OP, they had to nerf the stats pretty considerably. Avarice Blade is good on the few people who scale well with crit chance, Kage's Lucky Pick is okay, and Philosopher's Stone is kinda too good. So the thing I think should be done is that they increase in sale value at a rate either equal to or lower than the current gold/second rate. So if you want to keep the benefits of the item then you can keep the item, and once you want the gold, you sell it.

Either that or a special way of it stacking, 5/10secs for the first item, 3 for the second, 2 and then 1 for all subsequent items.

[Math_Mage]

Dog, as far as that goes, part of it is that I don't really agree with comments about how unbalanced LoL is. *starts discussion that will eat up tons of posts leading to the next thread and thread title*

And yeah, I agree that g/10 needs looking at. Diminishing returns, or making g/10 passives unique, or something so that 9/10 champions aren't buying the same item every game.


While you're at it, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn-HoAPlg-c) might be of interest to some of our posters.

I'll put it up.

[9mm]

And yeah, I agree that g/10 needs looking at. Diminishing returns, or making g/10 passives unique, or something so that 9/10 champions aren't buying the same item every game.


See, I disagree, gold/5 is popular because what else can you quickly buy for lane advantage? Dorans items, but they don't build into anything useful, while gold/5 can be. Gold/5 wins that fight every time, whats more the only doran that is really worth stacking is blade, making them even less attractive; If you want to fix gold/5, you must have more meaningful tier 1 items to compete with them. Like a basic health+armor (red crystal +cloth) item, or other items.

[Joran]

Dog, as far as that goes, part of it is that I don't really agree with comments about how unbalanced LoL is. *starts discussion that will eat up tons of posts leading to the next thread and thread title*


The problem with discussing balance is at which skill-level and in which formats? How do we discuss balance?

For me, an average player, playing normal blind-pick, LoL seems pretty well-balanced. There's no champion that I feel like I MUST have on my team and no champions that feel like I should dodge (olden days Eve/Soraka/Warwick come to mind). It comes down to team coordination, individual skill, and proper team composition.

[ZombyWoof]

g/10 items aren't built on every champion or even most champions. Most of the high level streams I see don't build them on your typical carries, for example. Or junglers, besides 1 hog.

EDIT: It's call the "Tristana Curse." I cannot play Tristana and win because my team will be full of incompetents.

No, seriously.

I go 2-0 in lane in the first 10 minutes.

In that ten minutes, top is pushed to inhib turret and our jungle was executed twice.

EDIT:



For me, an average player, playing normal blind-pick, LoL seems pretty well-balanced. There's no champion that I feel like I MUST have on my team and no champions that feel like I should dodge (olden days, Eve/Soraka/Warwick come to mind). It comes down to team coordination, individual skill, and proper team composition.

... wut :smallconfused: Eve and Warwick have only ever been nerfed and are considered very strong pretty much of the time. Why would you have to dodge them?

[9mm]

... wut :smallconfused: Eve and Warwick have only ever been nerfed and are considered very strong pretty much of the time. Why would you have to dodge them?

It took a long time for people to figure out how to play Eve, also she used to have a Jax like condition on one of her skills that required killing something IIRC. She was pretty much considered the worst champ in the league.

WW? no idea.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

In other news, this thread (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=763895) gets better all the time.

Agreed. But Gragas is the best of the lot, followed by Alistar.

[Kettle]

This is worth watching. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u5W9c_VdtU) Guardsman Bob is one of the best streamers.

[ZombyWoof]

Tristana Curse game 2: no one speaks english.

I really feel like I would like Tristana if I could just play her with a semi-competent team... :smallfrown:

[Joran]

... wut :smallconfused: Eve and Warwick have only ever been nerfed and are considered very strong pretty much of the time. Why would you have to dodge them?

Warwick had a major buff in patch V1.0.0.75 (Mordenkaiser launch). Before then, he was really weak. This was also before Cleanse got nerfed and before Suppression was introduced. Bad times all-around for Warwick until those changes were made.

Eve had a major buff in patch V1.0.0.103 (Lux launch). But those buffs + a change in meta made her really good, before then, she was mostly a pub stomper type champion.

[Daverin]

I hate that I can't access the League forums; that gender swap thread always intrigued me for some reason.

At any rate, if you want to know why, in my own experience, one would think of dodging on a Warwick player, then I must say that I do not see that many good WW players (including me, for anyone who was in that one match :smalltongue:) He may be a good champ who is safe to play early game, but there are way too many WWs I've seen who have contributed little to the team, or were so aggressive that they just died instead.

Also, I have to say that the new champs look interesting, especially the female tank. A tank, who is female, and a paladin? Sign me up! Although, I'll admit, the crystal scorpion, as depicted, looked... bland. All the other awakened animal type champs that I can think of are unusual in some way, such as being bipedal. The scorpion looks like... a scorpion. Maybe even armor or some such? Then again, Anivia is just an icy bird, so maybe I should just hold off on this personal note until I see the end result.

Also, any champs that are different enough since the last couple of patches I should know about?

[Joran]

At any rate, if you want to know why, in my own experience, one would think of dodging on a Warwick player, then I must say that I do not see that many good WW players (including me, for anyone who was in that one match :smalltongue:) He may be a good champ who is safe to play early game, but there are way too many WWs I've seen who have contributed little to the team, or were so aggressive that they just died instead.


Well, I mentioned "olden days", when jungling was somewhat unknown and Warwick wasn't buffed yet and cleanse could still cancel his ult. You know.... 33 champions ago...

(I started playing between Nidalee and Poppy, right when Phreak started doing the Champion Spotlights. My friend has been playing since launch.)



Also, any champs that are different enough since the last couple of patches I should know about?

Orianna? Lee Sin is pretty different.

[ZombyWoof]

Eve had a major buff in patch V1.0.0.103 (Lux launch). But those buffs + a change in meta made her really good, before then, she was mostly a pub stomper type champion.
Why would you complain about having a pubstomper on your team? :smallconfused:

[Makensha]

I can't tell if everyone's being serious about the title or tongue-poking-through-hole-in-cheek messing with me. It's bad for my blood pressure. :smalltongue: I mean, I can change it...

I'm entirely serious. Though this wouldn't be the first time I detested a thread name, so take it as you will.


Well, I mentioned "olden days", when jungling was somewhat unknown and Warwick wasn't buffed yet and cleanse could still cancel his ult. You know.... 33 champions ago...

I nominate Joran for the Kickin' It Oldschool Award. Art will come if we get high level of consensus (Not GOOD art, mind).

[Joran]

Why would you complain about having a pubstomper on your team? :smallconfused:

I mistyped and meant "n00b stomper", but generally Eve was considered underpowered back then. She was super-squishy and ravage had a direction-facing component that made it more difficult to land.

Then she got buffed, the meta-changed and suddenly she was an absolute PITA.

Also, I think queue dodging was more acceptable back then. The punishment was much lower (not like the 5 minutes we have now) and there was no ranked, so people wanted to win much more in Normal.

Edit: I think there was no dodge penalty back then...

Double edit: Yup, no dodge penalty until the Mordekaiser patch.



I nominate Joran for the Kickin' It Oldschool Award. Art will come if we get high level of consensus (Not GOOD art, mind).

I didn't start at launch, so I should get no props. If anyone remembers in Beta when Blitzcrank's ult used to SILENCE FOR 3 SECONDS, they truly should get an award.

[tribble]

Okay, what just happened today? LoL says I have to wait an hour and thirty minutes to play because of server flood?

[ex cathedra]

Run-of-the-mill Server Instability. Thread here (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=843267).

[ZombyWoof]

Sigh.

Ok look, I know I'm having a poor game. But going 0-5 against Tree/Cait bot is NOT why you don't have any farm top. You don't have any farm top because Singed was outlaning you. TF is legendary because mid kept feeding him.

People seriously need to use their brains and figure out where the kills are going matters. It's not like a death is global gold.

I hate the people who play this game and 90% of them deserve a swift kick in the balls and a punch in the jaw.

ION: Cait/Tree has to be the most annoying lane ever.

IOON: Why do people think Shen is good early game? :smallconfused: He's been nerfed SO HARD over the past 3 patches they a) need (NEED) to perk him and b) he does like no damage early game, barely any mid game, and late game he's only a blip on the radar if you build him right.

IOOON: I still have yet to win a single game as Shen where I intentionally back off CS for a laning partner. Hey Ashe? I told you going to lane with me was a bad idea. You're going to have to EARN your keep, and I wasn't even Q->attacking every minion. Most of my Qs went into the enemy champs.

'course I ended up with 2x her CS. But never mind that, it's totally my fault she kept dying to eve over and over again.

[tribble]

Why did you pick Cho'gath, guy? why? You clearly don't know how to play him! Or how about this: Since you clearly have never touched the bug before today, why are you disregarding the riot build, which is lacklustre but not horrible, to build Berserker Greaves, Shurelia's reverie, and a buff pot you never drank? Or how about: Why did you continually ignore me when I told you to ult minions and acquire Feast stacks? You used feast exactly once, to ensure you got to be the one to kill ryze, the feeder on the other team. Would you kindly play champions of which you at least have a theoretical understanding?:smallfurious:

[Eldariel]

Swain with double QSS + AP/Def Stuff. Problem? :smallbiggrin:

[Zeful]

This is worth watching. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u5W9c_VdtU) Guardsman Bob is one of the best streamers.

If he's one of the best streamers, then they all apparently suck pretty badly. Man wasted his 500 character blurb with a song parody that tells the tribunal less than nothing about the game.

[Dogmantra]

then they all apparently suck pretty badly.

The contradiction being?

[Eldariel]

If he's one of the best streamers, then they all apparently suck pretty badly. Man wasted his 500 character blurb with a song parody that tells the tribunal less than nothing about the game.

Reason too good, would Punish anywayz. Besides, most people don't type anything there, at least if the cases I've been through are anything to judge by, so it's not like there's a huge dearth of information for the judges.And no, in all seriousness I wouldn't seriously punish because of what someone typed as the reason.

[Makensha]

I didn't start at launch, so I should get no props. If anyone remembers in Beta when Blitzcrank's ult used to SILENCE FOR 3 SECONDS, they truly should get an award.

Yeah, but none of them have really mentioned how long they've been playing. You have been playing longer than anyone else I've heard. So if there is no one who has played longer here... there you go.



The contradiction being?
"This is worth watching"

[Reinboom]

If he's one of the best streamers, then they all apparently suck pretty badly. Man wasted his 500 character blurb with a song parody that tells the tribunal less than nothing about the game.

It tells quite a bit more than 'nothing'.
I would rather have his report than the usual blank reports.

At the very least, it's amusing enough that it would be enough to keep my mind more awake while reading a tribunal case. A nice topic relative sugar coating to what is otherwise a dreary task. I'd take it as a welcome addition as well as sanity triage; I wish I got reports such as this.

[Winthur]

Man wasted his 500 character blurb with a song parody that tells the tribunal less than nothing about the game.

OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=5049987)

[Math_Mage]

Okay, due to uniformly negative feedback, have changed title.

Bob is a good streamer, and the information content of his report comment is quite possibly the worst possible metric by which to judge him. I'd recommend watching a few complete games.

(And then finding some other streamer, because Bob's downside is that his games are so same-y. Not enough variety at all. But he's a chill dude.)

[TechnOkami]

Mmso, I have a question for you all. Im about to try 3 different Mordekaiser builds to see which is the better one.

Build #1


1Xsorcerers treads
1XSunfires cape
1XForce of Nature
1XRylais Crystal Scepter
1XFrozen Mallet
1XGuaridan Angel or Thronmail or Abyssal Scepter

Build #2


1XSorcerers Treads
1XSunfire Cae
1XForce of Nature
1XRylais Crystal Scepter
1XFrozen Heart
1XAbyssal Scepter

Build #3


1xSorcerers Treads
1XWill of the Ancients
1XHextech Gunblade
1XRylais Crystal Scepter
1XAbyssal Scepter
1XGuardian Angel or Sunfire cape

Now... which do YOU think is best of them all...

[tribble]

Swain with double QSS + AP/Def Stuff. Problem? :smallbiggrin:

once I finally have enough runes that I can stop blowing all my IP on those and save up for Olaf, no, there will be no problem.

[Dragero]

Bah, after waiting 20 minutes to get in, it turns out that PVP isn't working! Damb you Lulzsec!

[Silverraptor]

Ah, fun times. Apparently, someone here at the Scout camp I'm working at tried to illegally download a movie. As such, we have the FBI and such swarming everywhere trying to find who did it and were having threats of our internet being shut down entirely.

So, I may not be able to get on for a while.:smallfrown:

[efdf]

Mmso, I have a question for you all. Im about to try 3 different Mordekaiser builds to see which is the better one.

Build #1


1Xsorcerers treads
1XSunfires cape
1XForce of Nature
1XRylais Crystal Scepter
1XFrozen Mallet
1XGuaridan Angel or Thronmail or Abyssal Scepter

Build #2


1XSorcerers Treads
1XSunfire Cae
1XForce of Nature
1XRylais Crystal Scepter
1XFrozen Heart
1XAbyssal Scepter

Build #3


1xSorcerers Treads
1XWill of the Ancients
1XHextech Gunblade
1XRylais Crystal Scepter
1XAbyssal Scepter
1XGuardian Angel or Sunfire cape

Now... which do YOU think is best of them all...

Build 3 is the best, Build 1 and Build 2 are much too tanky. But personally I'd recommend a full, glass cannon AP Mordekaiser build, such as Revolver --> Deathcap --> Lichbane --> Void Staff

[Winthur]

Build #3


1xSorcerers Treads
1XWill of the Ancients
1XHextech Gunblade
1XRylais Crystal Scepter
1XAbyssal Scepter
1XGuardian Angel or Sunfire cape

Now... which do YOU think is best of them all...

I don't like either but this looks the least suboptimal (Frozen Heart on #2? What for? :smallconfused:)

I've been on a Mordekaiser kick recently and I've been starting with Doran's Shield, getting an early Heart of Gold for a later Randuin's (or just for GP/10 if I didn't need the item), a Hextech Revolver for laning, then Rylai's, after which I would get a tanky item (Force of Nature, Randuin) and/or damage (Deathcap) and/or a mix (Abyssal Scepter), finishing my Revolver into Gunblade as 4th-5th item.

Works pretty well, only had one terrible game that I lost, rest was rather decent.

[ex cathedra]

I don't see why people build Morde tanky. Building tank items on a character with no CC and relatively decent AP ratios makes zero sense to me. Building some defense on any character is reasonable, unless you're dumb like me and believe in double gunblade+rylai's+deathcap+voidstaff+CDR boots.

I really do think that CDR boots are better choices than MPen. 18% CDR before blue buff is very, very good on Morde, who actively benefits from spamming his spells and has no resource pool, especially once you've got your second source of spellvamp.

But, really, Morde is not a tank. Why treat him as if he is?

[tribble]

Ah, fun times. Apparently, someone here at the Scout camp I'm working at tried to illegally download a movie. As such, we have the FBI and such swarming everywhere trying to find who did it and were having threats of our internet being shut down entirely.

So, I may not be able to get on for a while.:smallfrown:

That sucks. Make sure it wasn't your computer they did it on.


EDIT: This is why you build Morde as a tank. (warning: contains foul language if you read the chat.)
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1210/bestgameever.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/bestgameever.jpg/)Admittedly it requires a stupid enemy team, but it is hillarious.

[Moonshadow]

Ah, fun times. Apparently, someone here at the Scout camp I'm working at tried to illegally download a movie. As such, we have the FBI and such swarming everywhere trying to find who did it and were having threats of our internet being shut down entirely.

So, I may not be able to get on for a while.:smallfrown:

...wait what? For serious? You actually get FBI involved when someone tries to pirate a movie?

[Khaeta]

Ah, fun times. Apparently, someone here at the Scout camp I'm working at tried to illegally download a movie. As such, we have the FBI and such swarming everywhere trying to find who did it and were having threats of our internet being shut down entirely.

So, I may not be able to get on for a while.:smallfrown:

That is hilarious. I wish the camps I go to got that much excitement :smallwink: (or had internet in the first place >_>)

...out of curiosity, what camp?

[Eldariel]

AP Mummy OP (ok, ok, I got Aegis too):
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/7827/carrymummynpno.png

3rd death came in Fountain Dive. Feeding :smallfrown:

EDIT: Holy Crap, Fiddles Not So Nerfed Anymore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIcL_s3SyYs) :smallamused:

[toasty]

FYI I dunno exactly when Joran started playing but I've been in this game long before the beginning of season one. Must have been about the time of release in fact. Yeah, actually that sounds right. Probably 2-3 months after release.

[Volatar]

Okay, due to uniformly negative feedback, have changed title.


Whaaaat. I like the name, and we had more votes for it than the other one by far. "Uniformly negative feedback" from like, 3 people? :smallannoyed:

Put it back.

[Dogmantra]

Put it back.

IN OUT IN OUT SHAKE IT ALL ABOUT

[EternalMelon]

IN OUT IN OUT SHAKE IT ALL ABOUT

DO THE HOKEY POKY AND TURN YOUR SELF AROUND

[TechnOkami]

DO THE HOKEY POKY AND TURN YOUR SELF AROUND

THAT'S WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT Couldn't resist, sorry :P

[Qwertystop]

You should just name the thread something to do with how nobody can agree on a thread name.

[Math_Mage]

You should just name the thread something to do with how nobody can agree on a thread name.

Compromise: everyone loses. :smallamused:

[tribble]

Is anyone else unable to join summoner's rift games?

[TechnOkami]

Compromise: everyone loses. :smallamused:

Ill second this.

[Master_Rahl22]

I'm unable to join due to the 5 minute queue.

[Science Officer]

Mmso, I have a question for you all. Im about to try 3 different Mordekaiser builds to see which is the better one.

Build #3


1xSorcerers Treads
1XWill of the Ancients
1XHextech Gunblade
1XRylais Crystal Scepter
1XAbyssal Scepter
1XGuardian Angel or Sunfire cape

Now... which do YOU think is best of them all...

#3 is the best, but not sure what order you want that in...


I don't see why people build Morde tanky. Building tank items on a character with no CC and relatively decent AP ratios makes zero sense to me. Building some defense on any character is reasonable, unless you're dumb like me and believe in double gunblade+rylai's+deathcap+voidstaff+CDR boots.

I really do think that CDR boots are better choices than MPen. 18% CDR before blue buff is very, very good on Morde, who actively benefits from spamming his spells and has no resource pool, especially once you've got your second source of spellvamp.

But, really, Morde is not a tank. Why treat him as if he is?

His passive. He gets bonus health, he gets more of it with more AP, and it's worth more with more Armour or Magic Resist.
I like him best as a tanky mage. Full mage and my health bar looks a little anemic, and I die sometimesoften.
Full tank and... I don't do a lot. Tanky-Mage can walk into fights, hurt people, and not die.

I realised the below point opens the "what is a tank" can of worms. sort of. in a dumb way. which I don't want to do. So I'll just leave it here.

Well the thing with tanks is that they're supposed to use defensive items, right? And how do you use defensive items? By getting attacked. But your enemies don't want to attack you, 'cause you're a tank. So you use CC to motivate them to attack you.

But morde has no CC, so no one will attack him, right?
So you can walk into fights, and people won't attack you if you're tanky morde then?
:smallconfused: Where's the problem there?
Seems pretty nice. Provided you didn't go full tank and are still able to dish out some damage. It's like in Starcraft or what ever. Is a photon canon wasted if you build it and it causes the enemy to not attack your base? Or does it only have value if it's used?


I like your point on CDR boots, always been skeptic of sorc treads.
I like Abyssal Sceptre, Sunfire Cape, Rylai's, Revolver sometimes (though I'm still not convinced that Spell Vamp actually does anything...), that Tenacity Spellblade, sometimes, or whatever items seem like good ideas at the time. But Abyssal Sceptre, Sunfire Cape, and Rylai's as core. All items that contribute offensively and tankily.

[Eldariel]

But morde has no CC, so no one will attack him, right?
So you can walk into fights, and people won't attack you if you're tanky morde then?
:smallconfused: Where's the problem there?
Seems pretty nice. Provided you didn't go full tank and are still able to dish out some damage. It's like in Starcraft or what ever. Is a photon canon wasted if you build it and it causes the enemy to not attack your base? Or does it only have value if it's used?

It's a bit different. In Starcraft, the Cannon does its job if the opponent doesn't attack you. It protects you. However, the tank doesn't do his job if the enemy doesn't attack him since, y'know, then the rest of your team is fighting a more-or-less 4v5 which is a fight they're unlikely to win and then the tank is fighting a 1v3-4 after that in which he'll eventually get taken down.

Cannon's job is to protect an area you don't want to be attacked. Tank's job is to protect champions you don't want to be attacked. Thing is, the presence of a no-damage tank without CC doesn't prevent the opponent from attacking the champions you're protecting while the Cannon does quite an adequate job at stopping the opponent from attacking the area you don't want attacked if the opponent isn't attacking because of it.

[Silverraptor]

That is hilarious. I wish the camps I go to got that much excitement :smallwink: (or had internet in the first place >_>)

...out of curiosity, what camp?

Philmont Scout Ranch.

[Volatar]

Philmont Scout Ranch.

Oh dang. Thats a big national camp.

We are going to see tons of anti-piracy stuff coming out of the BSA in the coming months. Calling it now

[tribble]

So, Fiddlesticks. He's fun! Once he has a couple levels under his belt, he's a very quick jungler.

Problem is, what do I build my cloth armor to?

[Faulty]

Agreed. But Gragas is the best of the lot, followed by Alistar.

But Gragas is supposed to be large and round because of the magical energy in his ale bah. @_@

[Math_Mage]

So, Fiddlesticks. He's fun! Once he has a couple levels under his belt, he's a very quick jungler.

Problem is, what do I build my cloth armor to?

You start with something other than Cloth Armor, is what. Unless you're playing Tankstix, of course. Amp Tome is a favored choice. A Doran's item ain't bad either.

[Silverraptor]

Oh dang. Thats a big national camp.

We are going to see tons of anti-piracy stuff coming out of the BSA in the coming months. Calling it now

Try less than 24 hours. They are setting up a system where everyone now has to make their own account that only works if they log into the computer they made the account on. And to make an account, you have to enter in your full name in addition to the registration number you were assigned before you go into camp. Long story short, anyone does something stupid again, and they can nail you instantly.

[tribble]

You start with something other than Cloth Armor, is what. Unless you're playing Tankstix, of course. Amp Tome is a favored choice. A Doran's item ain't bad either.

ah, okay. I was mostly taking CA because I can buy 5 red pots after, but come to think of it it's more my mana that is the limiting factor on my Fiddle jungle early on. later, of course, Fiddle jungles without stopping.



Thought for the day: There is nothing more frustrating than winning every team fight and losing to a split push.

[St. Viers]

Try less than 24 hours. They are setting up a system where everyone now has to make their own account that only works if they log into the computer they made the account on. And to make an account, you have to enter in your full name in addition to the registration number you were assigned before you go into camp. Long story short, anyone does something stupid again, and they can nail you instantly.

I call a new training on internet conduct and safety. Safe Surf Online, with the mnemonic PDQCAPS.
Prevent (Piracy),
Discipline,
Quality supervision,
Careful usage,
Accountability,
Protect privacy, and
Safe search on.

Also, a more rigorous rehash of the same stuff (with a longer title, Like "Protecting our Youth through Safe and Legal Internet Use Training") for leaders, mandatory yearly training.

[Zen Master]

I call a new training on internet conduct and safety. Safe Surf Online, with the mnemonic PDQCAPS.
Prevent (Piracy),
Discipline,
Quality supervision,
Careful usage,
Accountability,
Protect privacy, and
Safe search on.

Also, a more rigorous rehash of the same stuff (with a longer title, Like "Protecting our Youth through Safe and Legal Internet Use Training") for leaders, mandatory yearly training.

Um ... are you serious?

Not pointing any fingers or anything, but where I'm from internet freedom is far more sought than internet control. So I'm curious.

This, perhaps, is irrelevant to the LoL discussion - so possibly, would it be ok if I PM you?! =)

[Math_Mage]

Um ... are you serious?

Not pointing any fingers or anything, but where I'm from internet freedom is far more sought than internet control. So I'm curious.

This, perhaps, is irrelevant to the LoL discussion - so possibly, would it be ok if I PM you?! =)

Internet freedom requires Internet responsibility. Internet denizens are sadly lacking in the latter. So, one can teach self-control from the bottom up, or impose control from the top down. I happen to have an opinion about which will be more successful, but that's just me.

[ex cathedra]

So, this dude (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=845617) is asking Riot for 1 RP so that he can afford to buy Cottontail Teemo.

I only mention this because I feel a need to share his wonderful teemo impression. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XM86i70CvQ)

Anyways, I played Fiddles for the first time since, like... my first week on LoL, and I decided to jungle. It was... surprisingly decent (I wasn't very careful, though, so I went like 16/9/7). Certainly not great, but I can see it potentially being viable depending on how Fiddles is buffed in the next patch cycle.

Speaking of viability, apparently jungle Gangplank might be an amusingly successful product of his upcoming buffs.

I couldn't really care less about Dreamhack at this point, I'm really curious as to where LoL is going in this development cycle.

[Nargan]

I can't believe the FBI got involved for downloading a movie. CP? Maybe. A normal movie? Waste of time to go to a scout camp for that, seriously. You don't get the FBI involved if someone steals from a shop, right? You get the state police. Same principle here methinks. Maybe. Not sure how it's done in america, but that's how it's done in England.

As for internet freedom, apparently here across the pond our beloved Prime Minister wants to censor the internet in Britain to make it more family friendly. Talking about porn sites in his talks, but who knows where it will end? Besides, I like my porn anyway. It's bad parenting for a 7 year old to watch porn, but normal for a 14 year old. Rather than banning the internet, as Russell Howard said: "Ban your fanny until you can look after what plops out of it."

EDIT: Just realised that makes me sound like I'm 14. I'm not, just using an example :)

Back to LoL:

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/2875/tristy.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/tristy.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Tristana, yo.

Submitting this to our "Kills don't matter" wall, because we lost nearly all teamfights, but we managed to hang on. They even got two barons. Eventually me and jax became so farmed that we could butcher their team in 3 seconds flat.

Damn fun carry, that Megling Gunner. Having 2 juiced up bloodthirsters is just amazing against 0 armour teams.

[Winthur]

As for internet freedom, apparently here across the pond our beloved Prime Minister wants to censor the internet in Britain to make it more family friendly.
huehuehuehue
Just checked his name and realized that he's the guy who made Terminator and Avatar, sounds like a swell guy, you should be more proud of him :smallconfused:

[Zen Master]

Internet freedom requires Internet responsibility. Internet denizens are sadly lacking in the latter. So, one can teach self-control from the bottom up, or impose control from the top down. I happen to have an opinion about which will be more successful, but that's just me.

Well, that leaves open the definition of what exactly Internet Responsibility is, and how much of it is required.

Personally, I've yet to see anything except very few and isolated cases where the lack of internet control has led to anything bad - and in these cases it has been in the real of criminal law, and been pursued as such.

Hm - this discussion borders rather too close on politics, which I seem to remember is frowned upon. I'm still curious, but I think I recommened PM's rather than this thread, seeing as it's both off-topic and frowned upon =)

[Master_Rahl22]

I don't see why people build Morde tanky. Building tank items on a character with no CC and relatively decent AP ratios makes zero sense to me. Building some defense on any character is reasonable, unless you're dumb like me and believe in double gunblade+rylai's+deathcap+voidstaff+CDR boots.

I really do think that CDR boots are better choices than MPen. 18% CDR before blue buff is very, very good on Morde, who actively benefits from spamming his spells and has no resource pool, especially once you've got your second source of spellvamp.

But, really, Morde is not a tank. Why treat him as if he is?

Ah, but Mord with a few tank items and some AP/MPen becomes an almost unkillable machine. I like Sorc boots on him because all his damage is magic, and because CDR is easier to get in other places than MPen is.

I prefer to rush either Rylai's or Hextech Revolver, then grab Randuin's and Abyssal Scepter. I then finish my Gunblade and consider a Tenacity item or Sunfire Cape or something. With my runes and masteries and building Randuin's, my CDR is pretty much covered. Even without Rylai's I get some decent damage from MPen, MR reduction, and AP.

[Science Officer]

It's a bit different. In Starcraft, the Cannon does its job if the opponent doesn't attack you. It protects you. However, the tank doesn't do his job if the enemy doesn't attack him since, y'know, then the rest of your team is fighting a more-or-less 4v5 which is a fight they're unlikely to win and then the tank is fighting a 1v3-4 after that in which he'll eventually get taken down.

Cannon's job is to protect an area you don't want to be attacked. Tank's job is to protect champions you don't want to be attacked. Thing is, the presence of a no-damage tank without CC doesn't prevent the opponent from attacking the champions you're protecting while the Cannon does quite an adequate job at stopping the opponent from attacking the area you don't want attacked if the opponent isn't attacking because of it.


Ah, but Mord with a few tank items and some AP/MPen becomes an almost unkillable machine. I like Sorc boots on him because all his damage is magic, and because CDR is easier to get in other places than MPen is.

I prefer to rush either Rylai's or Hextech Revolver, then grab Randuin's and Abyssal Scepter. I then finish my Gunblade and consider a Tenacity item or Sunfire Cape or something. With my runes and masteries and building Randuin's, my CDR is pretty much covered. Even without Rylai's I get some decent damage from MPen, MR reduction, and AP.

Yeah, this. I would not recommend building mord 100% tanky, but tanky enough to be an unappealing target. and get enough damage to kill people so that you can not get targeted in team fights, but keep it a 5v5.

But the bottom line is farm. farm farm farm. Morde is a good farmer. he likes his items a lot. Buy them.

[9mm]

so Cassiopia is becoming a weird bird, er snake, for me. She has awesome damage potential, but for the most part it just leaves you with a pile of assists as the poison DoTs take to damn long. Also, stupid amount of required farm is stupid. I'll probably keep adjusting my build till I find one that works; but right now tear, derpcap, rylais, AA; just isn't transitioning well.

[Adumbration]

Trollololloooo. Just had a 3v3 where our Mundo disconnected... and reconnected, just as we had fought valiantly 2v3 and were destroying the enemy nexus tower. "Sorry, bathroom break."

In other news, Nunu jungling is still OP in 3v3. It's not even funny, only I still chuckle gleefully every time I do it. I've had about 7 wins with it in a streak now. (Well, excepting one 5v5 that I lost, but still.) :smalltongue:

[Hyudra]

The assist thing does grate, and really runs contrary to the fact that she is a carry of sorts.

I generally make Rylai's my second item, after tear (and starter boots). The slow is invaluable because it complements every aspect of your role - you're keeping enemies close so you can keep up the spam and land more overall hits. It also means that you can complement your team better in a team fight, even if you're not doing mondo damage (50% slow on 3+ people is sexy)

But yeah, I build most of the same items. Tear, boots, Rylai's, sorc shoes, Derpcap, Banshee's, Archangel. If the enemy has no solid gap closers (like Jarvan, Akali, Kass), I generally feel comfortable taking a mejai's, since, even with just assists, I can get stacks fast enough for it to count. I find it a pretty comfortable progression.

[Inhuman Bot]

Nasus and Veiger might be getting nerfed. (http://surrenderat20.blogspot.com/2011/06/nasus-and-veigars-farming-skills.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SurrenderAt20+%28surrender+at +20%29)

Good, they were totally too strong.

[Draken]

Looks more like a potential rework of their endless scaling mechanic than a nerf.

[Faulty]

Yeah, I think you're sort of extrapolating "nerf" from very little. It'd be nice to see Nasus/Veigar be capable of having a consistant power level without having to last hit with certain abilities.

[Penguinizer]

I couldn't be more happy about this game. I ended up winning a 4v5 with a friend of mine and his cousin while we were triple queuing. It was really close.


http://i54.tinypic.com/1zf0qh0.jpg


It was partially the fact that they were all around level 20, while I was 30, my friend was level 25 and his cousin has a level 30 account on the eu server. Still, we won a 4v5.

[Eldariel]

It was partially the fact that they were all around level 20, while I was 30, my friend was level 25 and his cousin has a level 30 account on the eu server. Still, we won a 4v5.

It was 4v4. They had a tank Morde. :smallwink: At any rate, congrats; always awesome to win against all odds. Out of curiousity, who DCd on your team?

[Dogmantra]

It was 4v4. They had a tank Morde. :smallwink: At any rate, congrats; always awesome to win against all odds. Out of curiousity, who DCd on your team?

Soraka, if you look on the right.

[Eldariel]

Soraka, if you look on the right.

Ah, indeed.

[Master_Rahl22]

They had not just a tank Mord, but a bad tank Mord. 2 Warmogs and no Atma's? Only a little bit of armor and MR? Mord doesn't need HP, he needs armor and MR since those make his shield worth more. Anywho, gratz on sticking it out.

So, Alistar. I find that I have a completely horrible early game with him. I've been starting boots and one of each pot and laning bot. Skill order is generally Q, W, E, E, E, R, and R > E > Q > W. I've been using my basic caster runes (Mpen, MP5/lvl, CDR, Heath quints) and 0/9/21 masteries. I don't know if I think he's too indestructable early when he's not or what, but last night in a 5 man premade normal game I ended up 2/7/4 at the end of the laning phase. By the end of the game, I was 8/11/18 and was directly responsible for us winning 4 team fights due to key Headbutts or Pulverizes to interrupt Malz's ult or punt the carry to our team, or Heals. So, what can I do to improve my early game? Are there item/skill/rune/mastery changes I can make, or do I just need to learn to be more careful early on?

[Temotei]

So, Alistar. I find that I have a completely horrible early game with him. I've been starting boots and one of each pot and laning bot. Skill order is generally Q, W, E, E, E, R, and R > E > Q > W. I've been using my basic caster runes (Mpen, MP5/lvl, CDR, Heath quints) and 0/9/21 masteries. I don't know if I think he's too indestructable early when he's not or what, but last night in a 5 man premade normal game I ended up 2/7/4 at the end of the laning phase. By the end of the game, I was 8/11/18 and was directly responsible for us winning 4 team fights due to key Headbutts or Pulverizes to interrupt Malz's ult or punt the carry to our team, or Heals. So, what can I do to improve my early game? Are there item/skill/rune/mastery changes I can make, or do I just need to learn to be more careful early on?

Alistar's great at feeding a lane mate. Get someone who's good at taking advantage of stuns and positioning and win your lane forever as you hide in bushes for a moment, then headbutt them into a wall or toward your ally rather than back. Try to pulverize both enemies instead of just your main target, as that might save your lane mate.

I grab boots, two health pots, and a mana pot to start. I won a game ending with just boots of speed, actually. It was kind of hilarious. I never left my lane just for laughs and nobody complained because I fed our Tryndamere so much that nobody needed me. :smalltongue:

But really, being careful early on will go a long way to getting your early game Alistar up. His spells are on fairly long cooldowns, so you can either use them as offense or defense, but usually not both in the laning phase.

I skill QWE, and then it depends on how we're doing in the lane. If I were to say there is a standard for what I do, it would be QWEQEREQQERQEWWRWW, but it's subject to change based on need.

[Eldariel]

If I lane as assist Ali, I get Faerie Charm or two (getting Philos) and Pot and Ward. If I roam it's 3 Pots + Boots. Either way, I skill Pulv first and either Heal or Headbutt depending on if we got harassed level 1 hard or not. Headbutt defensively, then setup kills by Headbutt > Pulv, don't take excess hits; you don't need to CS so just sit back until you're going in for a Headbutt. And don't be afraid to Headbutt someone just for the harass; it's all good damage and makes it hard for 'em to hit back.


They had not just a tank Mord, but a bad tank Mord. 2 Warmogs and no Atma's? Only a little bit of armor and MR? Mord doesn't need HP, he needs armor and MR since those make his shield worth more.

I neglected that point since he isn't the only allstar in the game in that regard; there's AP Teemo, Pure DPS Yi and all the good stuff.

[Dogmantra]

Guide to playing Alistar:

1. Lane with a good Blitzcrank
2. Win game

[tribble]

OhMyGod, guys, I can carry!:smallbiggrin:

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2199/icancarry.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/icancarry.jpg/)

I wound up picking MF because nobody wanted to take a ranged carry. Wierd, I know. This is especially awesome because I usually play tanks or support.

[Science Officer]

I'm a big fan of Doran's Ring as a starting item for Alistar.
Mana regen, more health back on your heals.
I also still follow Dog's advice of q>w>e for first points, and then focusing e.
I'm not sure if this is still logical.

[Dogmantra]

I'm not sure if this is still logical.

I doubt it, what with the changes to his cooldowns that tends to turn out being horrid.

[Faulty]

So is Yorick coming out soon or something? It feels like I haven't played in a week.

[tribble]

Guide to playing Alistar:

1. Lane with a good Blitzcrank
2. Win game

Either of these characters can be replaced by Singed.

[Faulty]

Either of these characters can be replaced by Singed.

I'd be more afraid of Blitz/Ali. One grab by Blitz and you're as good as dead. You get grabbed by Blitz, knocked up by Blitz, silenced, knocked up by Alistar, and then head butted away from your lane partner, so if you survive the burst there's nothing to stop Alistar from smacking you around while trampling and Blitzcrank from overdriving and chasing down any attempt at your escape.

[tribble]

I'd be more afraid of Blitz/Ali. One grab by Blitz and you're as good as dead. You get grabbed by Blitz, knocked up by Blitz, silenced, knocked up by Alistar, and then head butted away from your lane partner, so if you survive the burst there's nothing to stop Alistar from smacking you around while trampling and Blitzcrank from overdriving and chasing down any attempt at your escape.

With equal cohesion and teamwork Blitz/Ali is probably better, I just meant to point out that the general idea of the strategy is still viable with Singed, because you don't always get the luxury of premade and so it's nice to have all the options noted. Also, I'm kind of a Singed fan.

[Faulty]

How would Singed be any more functional than Ali in a pub situation with that set up? Blitz's chain CC lasts long enough for Ali to get in position easily, his CC is better than Singed's and Headbutt is easier to aim than Fling. Plus Singed lacks the sustainability of the pair, what with Alistar having a heal and Blitz having mana shield.

[Joran]

So is Yorick coming out soon or something? It feels like I haven't played in a week.

He's coming out after Dreamhack and the Season 1 championships.

[Archangel Yuki]

So after taking a couple (hundred) game break from ranked, I finally came back to fight my way to whatever elo I deserve. I don't know where that might be but I am excited to get there. Here's the first game.

http://i54.tinypic.com/am8x3s.png


EDIT:
:( Everyone's fighting

[Dogmantra]

One grab by Blitz and you're as good as dead.

Headbutt is actually the opener for this comp.

[Faulty]

Headbutt is actually the opener for this comp.

I laned against that once and it generally opened with grabs.

[tribble]

How would Singed be any more functional than Ali in a pub situation with that set up? Blitz's chain CC lasts long enough for Ali to get in position easily, his CC is better than Singed's and Headbutt is easier to aim than Fling. Plus Singed lacks the sustainability of the pair, what with Alistar having a heal and Blitz having mana shield.

READ MY POST, CONFOUND YOU. I didn't say he's better or more functional, in point of fact I conceded Blitz/Ali is better. What I was trying to say is that you won't always have a blitzcrank, so knowing you have a chance at the combo when you're laning with a different character is good.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

http://i54.tinypic.com/am8x3s.png



I don't wether to cry or laugh at that Gragas :smalleek:

[Faulty]

But it's not that same thiiiiiing. @_@

[Joran]

I laned against that once and it generally opened with grabs.

Odd, my opener was usually Flash/Pummel, headbutt back to the Blitzcrank. That's what I like most about the comp, there's so many ways you can set up a chain of murder.

The only issue is against a lane that plays very passively. I found that we lacked the damage to murder someone before they made it to their tower if they were suitably tanky or had a support healing them (Soraka, I'm looking at you).

Whenever I play with my flat AP page and masteries rather than my tank page and masteries, I tend to failboat pretty hard as Alistar. I think a nice mix (maybe flat AP page + tank masteries) might work better.

[Archangel Yuki]

I don't wether to cry or laugh at that Gragas :smalleek:

He maxed body slam first and actually acted as a battlefield control machine/tanky dps. He was really scary and did quite a bit of damage in lane.

[Dogmantra]

I laned against that once and it generally opened with grabs.

It's inefficient. Play it with a friend sometimes and the best comp is Headbutt into a wall > Pulverise > Big Robot Punch Up > Silence > Pull > Big Robot Punch Up


The only issue is against a lane that plays very passively. I found that we lacked the damage to murder someone before they made it to their tower if they were suitably tanky or had a support healing them (Soraka, I'm looking at you).

Weird, with a Sheen on each character, I've always found we have so much damage (and CC) to stop 'em. Also Ignite.

[Faulty]

We were Caitlyn/Sona. Sona was doing pretty poorly but I got killed a few times too. The thing that made it really go down the toilet was that after one or two kills they gained the damage to nuke us down instantly so it just snow balled from there.


It's inefficient. Play it with a friend sometimes and the best comp is Headbutt into a wall > Pulverise > Big Robot Punch Up > Silence > Pull > Big Robot Punch Up

No, the most efficient thing is to build Warmog's on Alistar and focus your heal what.

[Joran]

Weird, with a Sheen on each character, I've always found we have so much damage (and CC) to stop 'em. Also Ignite.

Ah yes, Sheen's. I was thinking about before the first base. Need to try it since my friend likes to play Blitzcrank, but is out of practice and can't hit that initial grab as often anymore =P

P.S. Anyone know what happens to Warwick's ult if his target is moved away from him? My friend kept headbutting my ult target away and it felt like it canceled the rest of my ult, but it could have been my lying eyes. =P

[ZombyWoof]

Hee hee... jungle yi binge, pure DPS. My job in the early game? Farm. My job in the late game? "Oh, nice tower you have there!"

[Dogmantra]

In this game, Midwick, jungle Olaf, jungle Yi also who had no idea how to jungle Yi, an Annie who was having trouble, and a #1 Second Time Morde

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll78/De_ressurect/howwwww.png
HOWWWWW

[Terazul]

Dog, I just want you to know that your zany LoL escapades never cease to amuse me. Also confuse the hell out of my friends. :smallamused:

"Wait, what?"
"It's the Jungle Karthus guy."
"Oh god."

[Khaeta]

P.S. Anyone know what happens to Warwick's ult if his target is moved away from him? My friend kept headbutting my ult target away and it felt like it canceled the rest of my ult, but it could have been my lying eyes. =P

I've seen a weird thing with this where the ult still happens, and Warwick stays in the original targeted location, but you're in your new location post movement... >_>

[Joran]

I've seen a weird thing with this where the ult still happens, and Warwick stays in the original targeted location, but you're in your new location post movement... >_>

Right, I know the target of Warwick's ult moves to the new area if he's forced to move. Warwick is stuck where he is until the ult ends.

My question is:

1) Is the target still stunned/suppressed if the target is headbutted away.
2) Is the target still taking damage if the target is headbutted away.

My feeling was no to both, which was terrible and my friend should feel bad, but I'm not sure.

[Volatar]

League of Legends invades Champions Online (http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/576674232715667805/3827DAA40AEE75DC005D9674499532E3EFC5CFBC/)

Now I have to make a Lux character. :smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

14-5-16, 206 CS, 6 turrets. I think I helped my team a little that game :smallbiggrin:

(More people saying "Dat Ashe" who has quickly surpassed Shen and Annie as my #1 character)

[Khaeta]

Right, I know the target of Warwick's ult moves to the new area if he's forced to move. Warwick is stuck where he is until the ult ends.

My question is:

1) Is the target still stunned/suppressed if the target is headbutted away.
2) Is the target still taking damage if the target is headbutted away.

My feeling was no to both, which was terrible and my friend should feel bad, but I'm not sure.

Based on what I've seen, I believe the answer is in fact 'yes' to both, but you should probably check it elsewhere before treating anything coming from me as truthspeak :smalltongue:

[Qwertystop]

I just finished a TT game in under 7 minutes, in just the time it took to get a Boots of Speed and a Catalyst. I was Singed, there was also a Xin Zhao and a Pantheon. We were against a Cho'Gath and a... Actually, I can't remember. Their third, a Janna, left at the standard-for-TT first-minute-teamfight in bottom lane (We got first blood, but not the Janna, the one I can't remember).

[Math_Mage]

Tribble, Nargan, Archangel Yuki now listed in OP.



Back to LoL:

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/2875/tristy.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/tristy.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Tristana, yo.

Submitting this to our "Kills don't matter" wall, because we lost nearly all teamfights, but we managed to hang on. They even got two barons. Eventually me and jax became so farmed that we could butcher their team in 3 seconds flat.

Damn fun carry, that Megling Gunner. Having 2 juiced up bloodthirsters is just amazing against 0 armour teams.

I'd recommend switching out one BT for a Black Cleaver even if your opponents build no armor items. They'll still have 80-100 inherent armor, and BC gives way more DPS than BT even after accounting for Trist's Q. Or just go for a Phantom Dancer.


League of Legends invades Champions Online (http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/576674232715667805/3827DAA40AEE75DC005D9674499532E3EFC5CFBC/)

Now I have to make a Lux character. :smalltongue:

I'm...confused.

[9mm]

I'm...confused.

Read the chat window.

[Math_Mage]

Read the chat window.

I saw that. I think I'm just missing context. All the context.

[Qwertystop]

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/3485/unledtb.png
I took exactly the Recommended Items, except that I sold the Doran's later. It still worked! I thought the default recommended builds were usually terrible?

[Archangel Yuki]

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/3485/unledtb.png
I took exactly the Recommended Items, except that I sold the Doran's later. It still worked! I thought the default recommended builds were usually terrible?

I'm an avid Singed player. For him, his recommended items are solid. His ult provides a lot of tankiness, and mana helps with his health. Rod of Ages is good item to just rush for. From there, stuff like Banshees Veil and Frozen Heart are good items to look into. I prefer Frozen Heart over Sunfire Cape for an Armor item because of the Attack Speed debuff; it helps your team by weakening the enemy carries.

[Volatar]

I saw that. I think I'm just missing context. All the context.

Champions Online. Free to Play superhero game with an excellent character creator.

[ZombyWoof]

Oh, hey, guess what? I can still play Kassadin.

10-3-8 :smallbiggrin:

(that last death was HILARIOUS. I almost took out Annie after her tibbers missed me and then Garen and Trist flashed in and ulted me each. Then the rest of my team came in and cleaned them up.)

[Moonshadow]

Okay, so after not playing for a couple weeks, I went online last night. not realising that Riot was having server issues, though I probably should have noticed from the 3 minute login queue wait.

STILL not realising there were server issues, I herped along and decided to try out Karma who I'd bought a little while ago. Not looking at what I was doing, I thought I was doing a beginner bots match, and it turns out it was a normal game. I didn't realise this until I saw the loading screen and saw a Vladimir and it finally twigged.

So I'm stuck mid laning with a character I have no idea how to use or build, against the Vladimir (who was the only competent player on their team).

Still don't understand how I managed to go 6/3/12 when all I did was follow the Riot build. I mean, the only AP I had was WotA and my passive, and I was still raping face.

So, how does one Karma? I quite like her, she's like Lux, but more of a support than an AP blaster type.

[Math_Mage]

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/3485/unledtb.png
I took exactly the Recommended Items, except that I sold the Doran's later. It still worked! I thought the default recommended builds were usually terrible?

All those items are great for Singed, with the caveat that I would normally buy Rylai's, but at an Elo where people play AP Sivir they probably make a habit of chasing Singed wherever he goes, so that's all right. Keep in mind that had Sivir gone AD, you would have needed more armor for sure (trade BVeil for ROmen, probably); as it was, your balance of resistances was great.


Champions Online. Free to Play superhero game with an excellent character creator.

I see. Was there more to it than the single chat comment? Would be interesting.

[Volatar]

I see. Was there more to it than the single chat comment? Would be interesting.

Probably. I didn't stick around to see him or anything else he said though. I was in a hurry to meet up with 4 other playgrounders.

[ZombyWoof]

The same two trolls have been in my last 3 games. They have been awful every single game. They have been jerks every single game. WHY AM I STILL STUCK WITH THEM. WHY CAN I NOT BLACKLIST THEM AND NOT PLAY WITH THEM.

[Joran]

The same two trolls have been in my last 3 games. They have been awful every single game. They have been jerks every single game. WHY AM I STILL STUCK WITH THEM. WHY CAN I NOT BLACKLIST THEM AND NOT PLAY WITH THEM.

Because Riot has never implemented "don't play with people I've ignored" for whatever reason.

Hopefully you reported them so the Tribunal can take care of them and queue dodge them next time.

[ZombyWoof]

Oh hey look who just fed again and blamed everyone else?

[tribble]

Oh hey look who just fed again and blamed everyone else?

http://cdn2.mixrmedia.com/wp-uploads/rekuru/blog/2009/11/azumanga_kimura.jpg

Me.

[Misery Esquire]

Oh hey look who just fed again and blamed everyone else?

Sorry. My bad.

[Nargan]

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/3926/nunup.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/nunup.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

So, I finally caved into self-pressure and bought nunu bot, since nunu is my favourite jungler. Haven't looked back. It's so much fun!

Especially counter-jungling. I love it. I managed to counter jungle the nunu in the above game so badly (stealing exp, buffs etc) and it was very very fun. Recommend counter-jungle nunu for anyone looking to have a blast with a jungler.

EDIT: @ Math mage, I play on the EU server and was added to the list a while back! Thx anyway :p

[Dogmantra]

I thought the default recommended builds were usually terrible?
They usually aren't great and some are downright awful (e.g. Ezreal's recommended items for a very long time were AP when AP was actually a horrible build for him) but they do keep tweaking them, and tanky DPS can be quite formulaic.


So, how does one Karma? I quite like her, she's like Lux, but more of a support than an AP blaster type.
AP Karma: Grab a couple of Philosopher's Stones or Doran's Rings to start you off. You want to build a bit like Lux, you want maxed CDR with decent priority and a flippin' Hat with SUPER HIGH priority. The hat will make your passive 30% more effective, which means with low health at high levels, it will give you upwards of 182 free AP. Stompers are good for filling up your much needed CDR, and beyond the Hat, Karma likes the tanky AP items, Hourglass and Abyssal Sceptre. Try to avoid magic pen because a) your ratios are good and b) half your things won't scale with it anyway. You contribute in teamfights ideally by kind of circling around on the edges, making sure to laserbeam the furthest person, using regular shields and saving Mantra for your fans. Of course, if people aren't going to need healing, feel free to Mantra a shield instead for more burst.

AD Karma: Double Philosopher's Stone > Stompers > Black Cleaver > Phantom Dancer > Bloodthirster/Razor. Similar playstyle to the above, except you can split push harder, you're harder to catch (easier to kill, though you can fight back and kill nearly anyone) and you have a much higher damage output in teamfights. It's easy to knock without trying and it's certainly unconventional, so maybe don't do it if you're not me.


Because Riot has never implemented "don't play with people I've ignored" for whatever reason.
For the reason that it would be abused more often than it would be used properly. If someone sees a player they think is "bad", bam ignore list. That ends up being unfair to the player who didn't do anything beyond have a bad game. And before you say "but I don't want to play with anyone who thinks like that", imagine if there weren't many people queueing. Yeah, good luck finding a game (also it encourages abusing it to artificially raise your ELO)

[Lyesmith]

so Cassiopia is becoming a weird bird, er snake, for me. She has awesome damage potential, but for the most part it just leaves you with a pile of assists as the poison DoTs take to damn long. Also, stupid amount of required farm is stupid. I'll probably keep adjusting my build till I find one that works; but right now tear, derpcap, rylais, AA; just isn't transitioning well.

My usual Cass build is Doran's ring, Hextech revolver, Sorc ShoesTear if doing well / having really bad mana problems (usually by the time I've got Hextech I can solo blue), Derpcap, Upgrade to WoTA, Get a Rylai's, and then see what the game looks like.

But yeah, i've found the spellvamp can seriously help with lane endurance, and the ludicrous farm can be done from level 3 on caster minions, rank 1 miasma + noxious blast = 3 dead minions. Of course, mana etc, but yeah. Farming with cass is dead easy, i've always found.

[Winterwind]

Okay, so after not playing for a couple weeks, I went online last night. not realising that Riot was having server issues, though I probably should have noticed from the 3 minute login queue wait.Pshh. On Europe, we've had waiting queues in excess of one hour for every other day the entire last week (they usually end up taking "only" some 30 minutes or so, though). Having 3 minute login queues would be awesome. :smalltongue:

[Nargan]

Pshh. On Europe, we've had waiting queues in excess of one hour for every other day the entire last week (they usually end up taking "only" some 30 minutes or so, though). Having 3 minute login queues would be awesome. :smalltongue:

As someone on riot's summoner showcase video said: "EU servers have been up and own like a prostitute's pants."

[SlyGuyMcFly]

THESE DUDES: Jarvan, Vayne, Evelynn, Rumble, Irelia?

Come on Dreamhack end so I can see these dudes nerfed :|.


You'll like this patch :p



:smallfrown:

[Volatar]

The same two trolls have been in my last 3 games. They have been awful every single game. They have been jerks every single game. WHY AM I STILL STUCK WITH THEM. WHY CAN I NOT BLACKLIST THEM AND NOT PLAY WITH THEM.

Wait at least 10 minutes before queuing again after you play with a troll.

[Moonshadow]

:smallfrown:

Why would you nerf Jarvan and Irelia again >_>

[Inhuman Bot]

Because Riot has never implemented "don't play with people I've ignored" for whatever reason.

I'll tell you, but you need to try to guess first.

Riot has terrible programmers.



Pshh. On Europe, we've had waiting queues in excess of one hour for every other day the entire last week (they usually end up taking "only" some 30 minutes or so, though). Having 3 minute login queues would be awesome. :smalltongue:

If Riot's servers get DDoS'd, nobody will know

Also, Yorick preview is up if it hasn't been mentioned. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/news/new-champion-approaches-yorick-gravedigger)

I think he's got new shaders or something. He looks better then most of the other heroes.

He'll probably make a great jungler.

[Qwertystop]

All those items are great for Singed, with the caveat that I would normally buy Rylai's, but at an Elo where people play AP Sivir they probably make a habit of chasing Singed wherever he goes, so that's all right. Keep in mind that had Sivir gone AD, you would have needed more armor for sure (trade BVeil for ROmen, probably); as it was, your balance of resistances was great.

This ELO, as you can see from the screenshot, is actually Summoner Level 15, not any particular ELO.

I always thought Rylai's was a bad item on Singed, because it slows people chasing you with your Q on, which is a major source of damage? Sometimes I run when I have a lot of health left, but its a low % of my total (High HP density FTW!), to lure people into staying in my poison trail for a while, but that doesn't work too well if they are slowed just by chasing me. Once I even Fling-ed an enemy into my pool turret after they tried to towerdive me at my base. Nobody would bother chasing if the act of chasing slowed, and I have W-glue to slow them if I actually need to run.

[Dogmantra]

Rylai's is amazing on Singed, because while you can't move faster on demand without blowing a cooldown, you can move slower on demand by just stopping, and don't underestimate everyone being slowed 15% in a teamfight, in addition to the patch of glue.

It basically means you get to split push and be entirely uncatchable, provided you have decent map awareness, a couple of wards and good instinct.

I made a diagram demonstrating people's mindset when dealing with Singed. Rylai's stops them from ever getting into the green area if you don't want them to, and if you stop moving at the right times, that stops them going into the red area. Don't ask why people are like this. They just are.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll78/De_ressurect/singed.png

[Qwertystop]

Rylai's is amazing on Singed, because while you can't move faster on demand without blowing a cooldown, you can move slower on demand by just stopping, and don't underestimate everyone being slowed 15% in a teamfight, in addition to the patch of glue.

It basically means you get to split push and be entirely uncatchable, provided you have decent map awareness, a couple of wards and good instinct.

Why would they keep chasing if I am obviously stopping to let them catch up?


Also, YAY AT THE PREVIEW! SO MUCH BETTER THAN I HOPED! WE CAN DEFINITELY GET MULTIPLE SUMMONS SIMULTANEOUSLY!
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: :biggrin:

[Winthur]

Also, YAY AT THE PREVIEW! SO MUCH BETTER THAN I HOPED! WE CAN DEFINITELY GET MULTIPLE SUMMONS SIMULTANEOUSLY!
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: :biggrin:

Allowing for multiple simultaneous defensive, and simultaneous multiple defensive and simultaneous multiple devastating deep strikes.

[Math_Mage]

Why would you nerf Jarvan and Irelia again >_>

Jarvan, at least, is still bloody strong, and they didn't nerf him where it hurt last time.


This ELO, as you can see from the screenshot, is actually Summoner Level 15, not any particular ELO.

I always thought Rylai's was a bad item on Singed, because it slows people chasing you with your Q on, which is a major source of damage? Sometimes I run when I have a lot of health left, but its a low % of my total (High HP density FTW!), to lure people into staying in my poison trail for a while, but that doesn't work too well if they are slowed just by chasing me. Once I even Fling-ed an enemy into my pool turret after they tried to towerdive me at my base. Nobody would bother chasing if the act of chasing slowed, and I have W-glue to slow them if I actually need to run.

Opinions are mixed among the general playerbase. But top players almost universally buy Rylai's. Since FoN and SFC are givens on him, and you have the ult as well, health is really good for Singed. And you should really be way faster than your opponents already from movement speed quints, Boots of Swiftness (he already has inherent MR and CC reduction, Treads are less important though still situationally useful), and Force of Nature; not getting Rylai's because it will make the disparity even greater is false optimization.

[Dogmantra]

I made a diagram demonstrating people's mindset when dealing with Singed. Rylai's stops them from ever getting into the green area if you don't want them to, and if you stop moving at the right times, that stops them going into the red area. Don't ask why people are like this. They just are.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll78/De_ressurect/singed.png


Why would they keep chasing if I am obviously stopping to let them catch up?


See my edit

(I believe it's because normally if someone's running away it's for one of two reasons:
a] they think they will lose a fight {so you chase them!}
b] they are baiting you {but you're OBVIOUSLY more intelligent so you can tell when it's a bait!}
when someone sees Singed running away, intellectually they know that's how he fights, but they ignore that because just this one time he might not be running away to try to get you to chase him, maybe this time he might actually die)

[Math_Mage]

See my edit

(I believe it's because normally if someone's running away it's for one of two reasons:
a] they think they will lose a fight {so you chase them!}
b] they are baiting you {but you're OBVIOUSLY more intelligent so you can tell when it's a bait!}
when someone sees Singed running away, intellectually they know that's how he fights, but they ignore that because just this one time he might not be running away to try to get you to chase him, maybe this time he might actually die)

I find it's rather different for me. People aren't all that inclined to chase me, but I can persuade them to fight me. It's amusing to see them struggle with the dilemma: on the one hand, they're fighting Singed and they're never gonna kill him. On the other hand, he's being so bloody annoying running around them in circles and Flinging them into puddles of slow and letting the damage build up...so they end up charging in because your flag is sufficiently red.

[Dogmantra]

Well that's a whole other pot calling the kettle full of fish, and the other reason people will chase you. You make them raeg at you, it's why Tank Teemo works. Just poison 'em.

[toasty]

Because Riot has never implemented "don't play with people I've ignored" for whatever reason..

Because it would be easily abuseable at high elo. Hotshotgg could ignore the top 200 and play against people far below his skill level, constantly carrying himself and artificially boosting his rating.

They could, of course, implement the system for low elo people and/or normal games, I suppose, but its probably not worth there time considering the amount of people at "elo hell" the chances of meeting someone again is small (1 in like 30 games IF WE BOTH queue instantly after the game ends).

[Frankelshtein]

a] they think they will lose a fight {so you chase them!}
b] they are baiting you {but you're OBVIOUSLY more intelligent so you can tell when it's a bait!}
when someone sees Singed running away, intellectually they know that's how he fights, but they ignore that because just this one time he might not be running away to try to get you to chase him, maybe this time he might actually die)

This may be a testament to my ELO, but I find others chase me as Singed right up until they realize that they've fallen from full health right down to the level of that 2-bars-left Singed they're trying to chase.

I remember a specific example that involved myself at <300 being chased by a near-full Tryndamere. He would spin up close, and I would turn around and Fling him right before he got into auto-attack range. He did this two more times, then decided to pop his ult and run as he hit sub-400. I turned around, ulted, and flung him again :smallbiggrin:

[Zen Master]

I have finally played enough ranked games to earn an ELO. 1196, is the verdict. I'm kinda proud of that =D

Hooray!

[Inhuman Bot]

Because it would be easily abuseable at high elo. Hotshotgg could ignore the top 200 and play against people far below his skill level, constantly carrying himself and artificially boosting his rating.


I think you mean exactly at his skill level.

Speaking of which, being HotshotGG must be depressing as hell.

[Moonshadow]

Jarvan, at least, is still bloody strong, and they didn't nerf him where it hurt last time.

Radical thought here, but maybe, just maybe, instead of nerfing everyone to hell and back, Riot could perhaps... buff other characters instead?

I know it's a crazy thought, but it might just work.

[tribble]

Radical thought here, but maybe, just maybe, instead of nerfing everyone to hell and back, Riot could perhaps... buff other characters instead?

I know it's a crazy thought, but it might just work.

Bite your tongue.

[Inhuman Bot]

Radical thought here, but maybe, just maybe, instead of nerfing everyone to hell and back, Riot could perhaps... buff other characters instead?

I know it's a crazy thought, but it might just work.

Considering some of the things Riot has done (Not limited to, but including nerfing Jax, Eve, Shaco, Twitch, mana burn, and Gangplank), are you really surprised?

[SlyGuyMcFly]

IRELIA MY DARLING WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY LIFE.

(I finally got around to trying her out)

[Math_Mage]

Radical thought here, but maybe, just maybe, instead of nerfing everyone to hell and back, Riot could perhaps... buff other characters instead?

I know it's a crazy thought, but it might just work.

False dichotomy. Some champs (e.g. Sivir, Pantheon, Heimerdinger, Morgana, Fiddlesticks, Gangplank) probably need buffs to reach a state where they're competitive with other options--I say "probably" because it's always hard to tell whether an unpopular champion is actually underpowered or merely underrated, though I'm pretty definite on the above examples. Other champs need nerfs to reach a state where other options are competitive with them--and Jarvan is an example. Let's be frank: were we to "buff other characters instead" of nerfing Jarvan, we'd need to buff 60 or so. That's how far ahead he is.


Considering some of the things Riot has done (Not limited to, but including nerfing Jax, Eve, Shaco, Twitch, mana burn, and Gangplank), are you really surprised?

Jax was dreadfully OP back in the day--though yes, they did overnerf him. Riot's trying to keep a lid on Eve and Twitch while they figure out what to do with long-term stealth. Prenerf Shaco was mained by three of the top five solo queue players at one point. Having exactly one item in the game that can mana burn was stupid (Wit's End got buffed overall imo), and having exactly one champion in the game that can deny was stupid. So...not really sure where you were going with this.

[tribble]

Lol, Sion is hillarious. A 100% AP ratio on two skills? Yes, please! I don't even need to build tank items to be tough.:smallbiggrin:

Also, his bonehead line is funny.

[Dogmantra]

(Wit's End got buffed overall imo)

It was a buff to number of situations in which it was good, a nerf to maximum power. Wit's End was absurd vs some champions. Effective true damage on Blitzcrank, very nice against Ashe, fantastic against casters that didn't build much mana, but not very good against other things. New Wit's End is just a pretty okay (and super-boring) item. It certainly now fills the niche it was supposed to, what with it being supposed to be an anti-caster aspd item.

[Inhuman Bot]

Lol, Sion is hillarious. A 100% AP ratio on two skills? Yes, please! I don't even need to build tank items to be tough.:smallbiggrin:

Also, his bonehead line is funny.

You should've seen him when his shield had a 2.0:1 ratio.

Two new skins, Lux sucks, Mundo is merely okay. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=849630)

Edit: Guinsoo tweeted that GP is supposed to be a jungler in a near future update.

[Astrella]

You should've seen him when his shield had a 2.0:1 ratio.

Two new skins, Lux sucks, Mundo is merely okay. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=849630)

Edit: Guinsoo tweeted that GP is supposed to be a jungler in a near future update.

Shoulda been Hextech Lux. >.<

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Two new skins, Lux sucks, Mundo is merely okay. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=849630)


Commando Lux? Yes!

[Zeful]

Commando Lux? Yes!

It's not what you think.

[ex cathedra]

You should've seen him when his shield had a 2.0:1 ratio.

Two new skins, Lux sucks, Mundo is merely okay. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=849630)

Edit: Guinsoo tweeted that GP is supposed to be a jungler in a near future update.

Yeah, I believe that SaintVicious mentioned that jungle gangplank was going to be more viable post-buff. I also heard that they might be adding a slow to his passive, making him a very Nunu-esque jungler, but I don't know about the validity of that.

Also,

:smallfrown:

Reworks/nerfs are confirmed on all of those heroes except for Irelia. I haven't heard anything about that. :smallfrown: I'm going to hope that it's not true, and that Morello's helpfully vague statement was only referring to the first four champs.

[Bucky]

Why would they keep chasing if I am obviously stopping to let them catch up?

The trick is to run in a zig-zag instead of a straight line.

[Adumbration]

I'm going to be one sad panda if they nerf Nunu. One of the only champs that I feel that I am genuinely proficient with. :smallfrown:

[ex cathedra]

I'm going to be one sad panda if they nerf Nunu. One of the only champs that I feel that I am genuinely proficient with. :smallfrown:

They're changing the scaling on Consume and Ice Ball so that they start at lower numbers earlier, but scale to their old values at 18.

[toasty]

I'm going to be one sad panda if they nerf Nunu. One of the only champs that I feel that I am genuinely proficient with. :smallfrown:

They won't nerf nunu, but they might nerf Philo stones.

[Astrella]

They won't nerf nunu, but they might nerf Philo stones.

Don't get your hopes up, Toasty. They are sooo getting nerfed. :p

[ex cathedra]

No, they are most certainly nerfing Nunu. :smalltongue:

[Dogmantra]

they might nerf Philo stones.

Hmmm, and you might want to take Smite while jungling. Tanky DPS might be OP.

Vlad might be badly designed and unfun to play against.

Maybe.
:smallwink:

[tribble]

I also heard that they might be adding a slow to his passive, making him a very Nunu-esque jungler, but I don't know about the validity of that.

Because damage over time and reduced healing isn't enough of a debuff...
:smallsigh: Gangplank's passive is fine, his problem is that riot keeps releasing one-man armies that do everything he does but better.

Also, 2.0 ratio on Sion's shield?:smalleek: Good gravy, how long did that last? Twenty minutes? I can already take out the caster line of minions with shield alone if I build AP. You could get nearly a thousand HP on that shield!

[Faulty]

Shoulda been Hextech Lux. >.<

Aw. I like it. The heels are stupid but otherwise she looks quite commando-y, and she has a frickin' flamethrower.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Reworks/nerfs are confirmed on all of those heroes except for Irelia. I haven't heard anything about that. :smallfrown: I'm going to hope that it's not true, and that Morello's helpfully vague statement was only referring to the first four champs.

I hope so, so so much. I only just started played Irelia and we're already like best BFFs for ever. Just don't tell Lux I said that.

Edit: Now with 100% more proof:

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu55/EvenHuman/GirlBeWackYo.png

Details are of the second game. I was gonna go for my usual FoN & Randuin's but we were stomping them so hard I just grabbed a BFS for the extra damage.

Which leads me to ask what the best options are for boosting Irelia's damage after the Triforce/FoN/Randuin's trifecta is finished. I was thinking Black Cleaver, because AD is yummy, AS is very yummy and armor shredding is yummy too. Thoughts?

[ex cathedra]

Why does it feel like everyone in this thread mains Irelia and Lux? There were like six of us.

[Astrella]

Aw. I like it. The heels are stupid but otherwise she looks quite commando-y, and she has a frickin' flamethrower.

Not saying I don't like it, but I wanted a hextech skin. :(

[tribble]

So, what shoes should I build on Sion? I'm not convinced that merc treads are the optimal choice.

Also, is it worth it to buy a void staff after derpcap?

[Dogmantra]

I'm not the expert on Sion but generally people who don't get treads get:
a) Sorc Shoes for more damage
or
b) Mobility Boots to make getting in range for the initial stun easier (charging your shield doesn't count as combat)

Also whether or not Void Staff is worth it is based on how much MR your opponents have. If they have a decent chunk of it, grab one, but do remember that Lich Bane is Physical damage.

[Eldariel]

Why does it feel like everyone in this thread mains Irelia and Lux? There were like six of us.

Anivia. Feel better?

[Volatar]

Why does it feel like everyone in this thread mains Irelia and Lux? There were like six of us.

I have switched to Oriana so all is good.

[Draken]

Why does it feel like everyone in this thread mains Irelia and Lux? There were like six of us.

Maokai and Swain, if it helps.

[9mm]

Why does it feel like everyone in this thread mains Irelia and Lux? There were like six of us.

oh jesus... the mains list is something I've run from, because I have way to many.

[tribble]

Sona and Morde. If the team desperately needs a mage, Fiddlesticks.

[Silverraptor]

Whats the sudden interest in Fiddlesticks, may I ask? Haven't been on in a while.

[Spartacus]

Teemo, Warwick and Alistar, here.

Man, Cow is good. Even a scrub like me can feed my lanemate so many kills.

[Dogmantra]

Kennenzreal :smallcool:

(and currently the Teemster)

[Daverin]

So, you know what? Whenever I can finally get back to playing League, I'm just going to chug for CrC runes and learn to play Tryndamere. Is it because I want to win? No. Is it because I want to be a raging, screaming barbarian with a BFS who can get so angry as to not die? Why, yes, yes it is! :smalltongue: (Of course, I'd never play him with any of the playgrounders; I wouldn't do that to you guys.)

EDIT: Also, I main Swain (and I would almost say that Gragas has become my backup, just to switch it up), and tamper with just about every other champ possible. Although I could easily add Jarvan to that list if I could play him more. (which, btw, what is it they are planning to do to him? Or was that not revealed yet? Any ideas what needs hit most, and how it would affect him?)

[ex cathedra]

Jarvan, I believe, is just getting a nerf to base stats and ability damage numbers.

Fiddles... just isn't great right now. He got reworked a couple of patches ago, to make him more consistent. He's a really easy jungler, and he doesn't have the worst ganks; I would say that he's about as viable as Shaco (which isn't that viable at all, tbh). He's receiving a buff next patch, though.

[Cheesegear]

So, Taric...

Regrowth Pendant, Faerie Charm, Health Pot. Try not to die.

=> Emblem of Valour, Mana Manipulator. Boots if I can afford it.
=> Aegis => Mercury Treads
=> Depending on Team, Soul Shroud <=> Stark's
=> Malady, Nashor's Tooth

Terribad? Seems to work in bot games. But, them's bot games.

[Lyesmith]

Cass & Brand, mostly. I really, really like Irelia, but I'm pretty bad at her. Cass comes pretty naturally to me, however, making her a natural choice.

Also, lategame 800+ damage AoE DoT on a 3 second cooldown? Yes please.
p.s commando lux is ugly and TEEMO NEEDS MORE SKINSloljk more skins for cass and irelia

[Volatar]

I probably won't be playing much League for a little bit. Tried playing a botgame earlier. My ping was more than 5x its normal amount, and I disconnected 7 or 8 times during the match. Multiplayer gaming is nearly impossible, especially not a game like LoL.

And then I just had some of my web traffic hijacked and redirected. Kinda freaked me out when I clicked an ad an Facebook and ended up on a site that LOOKED like the one I should have ended up, but with the wrong web address (hj523uio.com, which is anything but legitimate looking), and a maliciously faked SSL certificate.

I think I am going to be playing singleplayer games for a bit :smalleek:

[Daverin]

That's... not good. Any intention of getting it looked into later?

[ZombyWoof]

Tanky DPS might be OP.
In competitive play, the top champs are, according to Elementz:

Vayne, Nidalee, Twisted Fate, Corki, Ashe, Annie, Mal’zahar, Janna, Amumu, Nunu, Anivia, Sona, Swain , Vladimir, Alistar, Soraka

I've bolded the champions who consistently get 3000+ HP or 150+ MR/AR. Of these I would only say that Swain really belongs in the "tanky-dps" category.

Now looking at solo queue, again, according to Elementz:

Vayne, Twisted Fate, Annie, Alistar, Eve, Corki, Teemo, Nidalee, Nocturne, Jarvan IV, Irelia, Akali, Renekton, Cho’Gath, Janna, Malzahar, Swain, Karthus, Soraka, Warwick, Vlad, Singed, Amumu, Maokai, Shen

Towards the end of the list more dudes are tanky but again not many of them are "tanky dps" but rather "tanks" who happen to be really good. Of course of the first 10 champs, only 2 are tanky and only 1 is tanky dps (cow is pretty much just a tank).

I think it's a real stretch to say that tanky-dps is "op" when, well, they aren't considered the best champs in the game in either organized team play or solo-queue.



Vlad might be badly designed and unfun to play against.

Vlad is fine the problem is cheap spellvamp items in conjunction with really short CD spells... and the problem is exacerbated with Vlad because he has two short CD spells (Q and E) and one of them already has a little vamp ability in it.

It's just like Gragas back when Locket was around: Gragas wasn't the problem. Gragas was fine, he was maybe a bit too powerful in lane, but whatever. But when Locket was removed? Gragas tanked in viability because suddenly he wasn't invincible in lane. A mistake would have been to nerf Gragas, the correct option was to hit the real problem child: locket.

Think of it as similar to MTG's affinity. The problem wasn't (and isn't) the Affinity mechanic. It's not Disciple of the Vault or Archbound Ravager. The problem was all of that combined with artifact lands.

Personally I think they need to rework Hextech Revolver because 20% spellvamp is a pretty large amount, especially combined with 40 AP. If you have ever played vlad you'll notice the way the green numbers pop up when you Q: +40 +200. The first is his Q healing you... and getting 40 HP every 3ish seconds isn't a huge deal. The second is his Hextech healing you... and getting 200 HP every time you Q as well as every time you E which works out to twice every 3ish seconds is way way super op.


Speaking of reworking, here's an idea for a Shen rework (by me! :D)


New Shen:

Ki Strike: (Innate): Every 8 seconds, Shen's next attack deals 10 + (5 x level) + (+10% of his bonus health) bonus magic damage. Whenever an enemy champion hits Shen with a basic attack, the cooldown is reduced by 2 seconds.

Vorpal Blade (Active): Shen throws a sword to a target unit dealing magic damage . That unit becomes life tapped for 5 seconds, healing any champions who attack it over 3 seconds. The attacker's healing duration is refreshed each time the life tapped unit is struck again.
Cooldown: 3 seconds
Range: 475
Cost: 70 / 65 / 60 / 55 / 50 energy
Magic Damage: 50 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 210 (+5% of total HP)
Heal: 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 (+1.5% of total HP)

Feint (Active): Shen enters a defensive stance, receiving a shield that lasts up to 2.5 seconds or until it is destroyed.
Cost: 45 energy
Cooldown: 8 seconds
Shield Strength: 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 (+5% of total HP)

Shadow Dash (Active): Shen rapidly dashes to a target location, Taunting enemies he collides with. Restores 50 Energy if you hit a champion.
Cooldown: 10 seconds
Range: 600 (estimate)
Cost: 120 / 115 / 110 / 105 / 100 energy
Taunt Duration: 0.8 / 1.1 / 1.4 / 1.7 / 2 seconds

Stand United (Active): Places a shield on a target allied champion, which will absorb damage for 7.5 seconds. After channeling for 2.5 seconds, Shen teleports to the target's location.
Cost: 50 energy
Range: Global
Cooldown: 180 / 150 / 120 seconds
Shield Strength: 100 / 200 / 300 (+25% total HP)

See, the huge problem with Shen was twofold: first, his ultimate was, well, amazingly powerful. With him on the enemy team your ganks were always subject to his Seal of Approval. Second, he was a really powerful 1v1 champion, maybe even the best 1v1 champion after being fully item'd out.

Of course that WAS the problem. Right now his ultimate's shield strength is diddly squad. It's 200 HP which does absolutely nothing pretty much of the time (at level 6 that's like, a volley from Ashe), and on a three minute cooldown. If you can't figure out how to play around that then you have no reason to call yourself anything but "scrub." Compare that to, say, Soraka's ultimate which, while it doesn't bring you to the champion, heals 200 + 1.3*AP. It's the same thing except Soraka's heals everyone in the gank on your team, not just the person being focused. Oh and Soraka's ult is on a 2 minute CD. As for his 1v1 ability? They've nerfed that to hell and back and any seasoned Shen player can tell you: right now he's absurdly weak from levels 1-5 and he needs items to be any good at all. Compare that to Cow, who can easily tank regardless of what items he has (but please stop building straight AP), or Amumu who has amazing 1v1 ability and really high damage output (% hp damage per second) without items.

Right now, Shen is at a weird spot: he's good because his ult is good, but other than that he doesn't really do much. He's a good farmer but lacks the convincing damage output of Irelia to justify a solo lane. He's a horrid jungler post-nerf. He can't really side-lane because he needs the farm too much to be passive. Finally, he's an absolutely attrocious roamer because if he's under leveled he a) doesn't get his ultimate soon enough (the most important aspect of Shen) and b) doesn't have enough ranks in his taunt to taunt for a meaningful time period (seriously look at the duration at level 1: .8 seconds. It maxes at 2 seconds. Rammus maxes at 3 seconds and gives armor reduction as well.)

His teamfighting ability isn't even that good: with his shadow-dash he will usually taunt 2, maybe 3 people if he's lucky... unless their whole team is standing in a straight line for him. With good positioning you can outwit all of his teamfighting ability just by being conscious of NOT BEING IN THE WAY.

So what do my proposed changes fix?

Well first of all it gives his W actual useage. Right now it's sort of an after thought, almost a complete waste of energy. "Ho, hum, I blocked 50 damage." With the perk I propose, with a full build of 4000 hp at level 18, it'll block 450 damage every 8 seconds. At level 1 it'll block 90 damage. Oooh that looks more like a useful skill! Especially since you might get it off twice in a teamfight. Might. And the initial AoE barrage alone will be, well, a lot more than 450 damage (450 is the base damage of level 3 Tibbers).

Second of all it leaves the early-level Shen ult right where it needs to be. Shen has a base 900 HP at level 6 with tank masteries, and 1/4 of that is 225. So his ult is a 325 shield, plus a little more if you build HP with him. The ratio may be a bit high, but that's only 125 more HP than it currently stands (200)... and the problem is obviously not the scaling since Shen never builds AP for a reason (at least not in the competitive builds). Plus it gives his late game ult a lot more useability. Right now his ult is 750, which in the really long games means... well it means diddly squat. Ashe can crit for 750 easy just using LW, PD, and IE. COOL MY ULTIMATE BLOCKS ONE AUTOATTACK! With the scalling though, at 4k hp Shen will block 1300 damage, which is like one and a half autoattacks... but it does give him a bit more split-push utility.

Thirdly, it leaves the original design of Shen in place (at least IMO): one of the most powerful 1v1 champs after itemizing. His Q starts out at 50+5% of HP. Level 1 HP of shen base is 450... 500 with masteries. So his Q starts out as a 75 damage burst. That might be a little high (since Annie's starts at 90 before items or masteries, but remember that Annie's can stun and also restores mana on unit kill), but giving someone a 75 damage Q at level 1 is hardly gamebreaking. Toss on a Ruby Crystal (highest HP item you can get at level 1) and his HP is 680... meaning that the burst of his Q is 83. Annie's with a Doran's Ring is 103. His Q can end up as powerful as 410 damage with 4k hp, which sounds awesome, right? but that's fully itemized. Annie's Q, fully itemized up to say, 600 AP, is 700 damage. Plus those of you who've played post-nerf shen know that his passive change was a huge nerf to his passive.

Finally, it focuses Shen's build. Now instead of needing tanky items to maintain his stated focus and having abilities that don't scale off of it, he has abilities that scale off his main build. Riot has, in the past, stated that they prefer to design champions like this, and I agree with them. It's stupid that MF has a bunch of AP ratios on all of her skills because you will never build AP with her. There might as well be NO ratios at all on those skills... and I don't think that's the right direction to take.

Now I'll showcase what I feel the "optimal" build for my version of Shen would be in a theorycrafted environment, complete with numbers:




Runes:
MPen/Aspeed reds
Energy seals
MR/level blues
AR quints

Masteries:
1/21/8 (for Exhaust mastery, which is better than Greed imo)

Summoners:
Flash/Exhaust

Items:
Mercury's Treads
Sunfire Cape
Banshee's Veil
Randuin's Omen
Force of Nature
Warmog's Armor

Defensive Stats:
Armor : 218
Magic Resist : 206
Base HP : 1873
Bonus HP : 2593
Total HP : 4466

Passive : 360 magic damage
Vorpal Blade : 433 magic damage
Feint : 473 HP shield, 2.5s duration
Stand United : 1416 hp shield, 7.5s duration

Thoughts: first, this is theorycrafted and I would have to see how this Shen plays before I make any real changes, but I do have some small concerns about early Stand United strength and late game Vorpal Blade strength... especially when compared with his stats, because 200/200/4500 is a bit more tank than I originally intended.

Still I make a comparison to Dr. Mundo (who isn't considered particularly powerful) who, as a result of the same build, would have 80 more HP, 13 more MR, 1 less armor, and his Q would deal 25% of the target's current hp in magic damage and slows... not to mention Masochism as a steroid and Agony as damage and CC reduc. Mundo would be slightly tankier and deal quite a bit more damage but at the cost of the team utility.

Plus looking at basic Ashe builds that I run, who's theorycrafted maximum is something like 1.8 attack speed, 100% crit chance, 40% armor ignore and 30 armor reduc, and something like 300 damage with 25% lifesteal... well... Shen's armor after this would only be an effective 100. That and Ashe can kite Shen fairly well. Believe me, I've been on the receiving and delivering ends of that kite plenty of times :smallwink:

EDIT: @Eladriel and everyone else who's going to talk about "well I can build X champion Y" I'm not talking about the trollbuilds you do in normals for funsies. I'm talking about competitive builds that are designed to maximize the effectiveness of a particular champion.

[TechnOkami]

Why does it feel like everyone in this thread mains Irelia and Lux? There were like six of us.

I guess I would use Mundo the most, others being Vladimir, Swain, Fiddlesticks, and dabbling with Renekton, Mordekaiser, and Irelia atm....

[Volatar]

That's... not good. Any intention of getting it looked into later?

The ping and dropped connections are not in my hands.

Hijacked web traffic though? Looking into it right now. I fix these sorts of things all the time (though usually less subtle). Technically, I do it professionally. I even have business cards. :smallcool:

[Misery Esquire]

In competitive play, the top champs are, according to Elementz:-

Hurk. That was my lung.

[ZombyWoof]

Hurk. That was my lung.
Well let me put it this way:

Elementz is currently in Sweden playing for the world-championships on a team that was easily the most dominant team in League of Legends for all of season 1.

You're some guy with 228 normal wins who's probably been playing for a couple of months and has no ranked rating.

Who, I wonder, has a better understanding of League of Legends? :smallconfused: Hmmm...

[toasty]

Hurk. That was my lung.

Despite the tier list being somewhat inaccurate from time to time, I think that elementz has finally managed to understand the meta and accurately explain who the best heroes in organized, high elo matches are. Those heroes are NOT necessary good at our level play in solo queue, ranked or otherwise, but that doesn't mean they are strong at his level of play during super serious matches.

edit: So they are nerfing Nunu. Okay. I guess so. I just find it aggravating that jungling has been really good for basically forever and Nunu has been a great jungler forever and has been known as a great jungler for a very long time and then magically Riot is like, you know, after a year of this guy being viable and in a good place, "he's too strong, let's nerf him." Why? It would be like nerfing Ashe after WCG. It doesn't make any sense. :smallsigh:

[ex cathedra]

I have a terrible wonderful feeling about the upcoming GP buffs. I'm guessing that his passive is getting a slow and that Parrrley will trigger it. Also, this (http://twitter.com/#!/RiotGuinsoo/status/81801813392752640) is absurd.


~snip tanky deeps snip~

So, almost a full third of the champs you listed were tanky deeps. That seems like a lot.


Vlad is fine the problem is cheap spellvamp items in conjunction with really short CD spells... and the problem is exacerbated with Vlad because he has two short CD spells (Q and E) and one of them already has a little vamp ability in it.

Vlad isn't fine, for a lot of reasons that have been covered elsewhere. I rather happen to like him, but so it goes. He's losing his 3 second cooldown on Transfusion.

[toasty]

So, almost a full third of the champs you listed were tanky deeps. That seems like a lot.


It just so happens that the meta and design of the vast majority of champions in League of Legends very much favors TankyDPS

[toasty]

So, almost a full third of the champs you listed were tanky deeps. That seems like a lot.


It just so happens that the meta and design of the vast majority of champions in League of Legends very much favors TankyDPS

[ZombyWoof]

So, almost a full third of the champs you listed were tanky deeps. That seems like a lot.

I listed tanky champions, go back and read it again. Amumu isn't "tanky dps" he's "tank." When was the last time you heard Nunu being called "Tanky dps"? What about Cow? Vlad?

And considering there are four roles: tank, support, ap carry, ad carry, a third of the top-tier champs being tanks isn't really that disproportionate.

Also Vlad IS fine. He's not some uber impossible to kill wonder (I can kill him just fine tyvm), he's not super-duper DPS OMFG HOW DO I LIVE (Annie and Malzahar have him way beat on damage), he's not really all that tanky (sure, he hits 3k hp. How much armor? MR? Compare that to Irelia), and his escape isn't a) on a really short CD (onoes pool on a 30s cd... what about Shen's dash on a 10s cd? Ez? Kassadin?) or b) without cost (20% of your HP is a lot). He's also a pretty poor laner levels 1-5.

Like with the vast majority of champs people claim are op: learn to play against him. It's really not that hard.

[Temotei]

oh jesus... the mains list is something I've run from, because I have way to many.

I have no fear. Let's see...Akali, Alistar, Kennen, Lee Sin (jungle), Nunu (jungle), Orianna, Poppy, Singed, and Zilean.

Ezreal used to be one of the above along with Gangplank and Rammus, but not anymore.

[Daverin]

I have to agree with Zomby on this one; Vlad is overrated. Perhaps this is coming from the perspective of Swain, who shares a somewhat similar tanky mage archetype (and has an unusually large ratio of spells that will affect Vlad even after he pools), but I really never am worried by Vlads at this point. He can have good survivability, sure, but I think his abilities are at a point where they are neither burst or sustained damage, at least not enough of one or the other. His biggest boon is the ult's damage increase, but that has not been as game changing as I would think were I not experiencing it directly. At this point, Vlad's role is, literally, to be annoying, and that he excels at.

[ex cathedra]

I listed tanky champions, go back and read it again. Amumu isn't "tanky dps" he's "tank." When was the last time you heard Nunu being called "Tanky dps"? What about Cow? Vlad?

I didn't misread you. Nocturne, Jarvan, Irelia, Renekton, Swain, and Warwick are all tanky deeps. Maokai and Vlad can arguably be included there, as well, but I won't go into that.


Also Vlad IS fine. He's not some uber impossible to kill wonder (I can kill him just fine tyvm), he's not super-duper DPS OMFG HOW DO I LIVE (Annie and Malzahar have him way beat on damage), he's not really all that tanky (sure, he hits 3k hp. How much armor? MR? Compare that to Irelia), and his escape isn't a) on a really short CD (onoes pool on a 30s cd... what about Shen's dash on a 10s cd? Ez? Kassadin?) or b) without cost (20% of your HP is a lot). He's also a pretty poor laner levels 1-5.

Like with the vast majority of champs people claim are op: learn to play against him. It's really not that hard.

He effectively has Annie's Q on a 3 second cooldown, except that it has no resource cost and it heals him. His W singlehandedly makes him immune to all but a very small handful of abilities in the game. His E does fantastic AoE damage on a similarly tiny cooldown. He's currently the single best AP carry in the game; he is an excellent farmer, he's the single most sustainable mage in the game, he is exceedingly difficult to gank, he's naturally tanky, and he scales phenomenally well. That "lolol only nobs think vlad is op" argument is just wrong; Vlad was among the most-banned and most-picked champs at Dreamhack.

While most of your points are more-or-less true, I don't think you're looking at the big picture.

Is he impossible to kill? No, not quite. He's much harder to kill than most champions, though.

Does he have Annie's damage? No, not quite. He's not far behind, though.

Can he tank? No, not quite, but he's far more survivable than any other AP carry, with the possible exception of Swain.

But you're probably right, ZW. I suggest you drop Reginald and Elementz a few notes suggesting that Vlad is in fact not that good, and certainly not tier 1 material, and that they should stop using him immediately.

Edit:

Also, don't judge everything based on Elementz's tier list. That dude thinks that Rumble is tier 3.

[Misery Esquire]

Well let me put it this way:

Elementz is currently in Sweden playing for the world-championships on a team that was easily the most dominant team in League of Legends for all of season 1.

You're some guy with 228 normal wins who's probably been playing for a couple of months and has no ranked rating.

Who, I wonder, has a better understanding of League of Legends? :smallconfused: Hmmm...

Let me put it this way ; it's his opinion and in no way should be used to make overarching commentary on the state of the game. It can be used to get a general idea, not to make truisms. Also, another hint would be to not assume that everyone plays one account.

[Dogmantra]

Let me put it this way ; it's his opinion and in no way should be used to make overarching commentary on the state of the game. It can be used to get a general idea, not to make truisms. Also, another hint would be to not assume that everyone plays one account.

Also the majority of players do have 228ish normal wins and no ranked rating so to be perfectly honest Elementz's opinion doesn't mean as much talking for the "main" game so to speak.

I wouldn't get Picasso to critique the paintjob on my porch.

[Eldariel]

EDIT: @Eladriel and everyone else who's going to talk about "well I can build X champion Y" I'm not talking about the trollbuilds you do in normals for funsies. I'm talking about competitive builds that are designed to maximize the effectiveness of a particular champion.

While I do post "troll" builds every now and then, assuming you're talking about AP Alistar here, you're doing me injustice. There's a number of competitive setups where AP Alistar is the optimal way to go. "Maximum effectiveness" varies so heavily from game to game; if you have a bursty AOE team, the extra burst from building Alistar full AP is more than desirable (especially Q + Passive) and the lack of survivability is completely negated by his ultimate and E.

Given he's actually used in such builds competitively by world's top teams in tournament games with everything on the line should speak volumes of AP Alistar's viability.


For what it's worth, while I like the approximate outcome of your Shen rework, I dislike the premise of making his itemization so single-minded. No current tank, in spite of having some conversions (Armor -> E+Damage for Malph, Armor -> W+Damage for Rammus, MR -> AP for Galio), has full conversion of any defensive stat into abilities like what you're suggesting here. Frankly, I don't think he really needs a complete rework; I think he just needs and adjustment in numbers. Like either way higher ratio and base value, or full HP-based Passive.

That's the biggest one, really; if his passive was worthwhile (right now it's useless early game where it's at its most important, and fairly useless lategame 'cause it's inefficient to itemize), he'd still be an extremely scary 1v1, a solid laner and a great lategame Tanky DPS (which, let's face it, is what he used to be before the nerf). You just got a Bloodrazor on Shen, and went to town on someone's face.

[Dogmantra]

"troll" builds

there's no such thing, only regular builds and AWESOME builds

[Arbitrarity]

Thing about hextech on Vlad is it isn't a spellvamp problem.
It is actually a Vlad problem. Because he has no mana. Since Q costs him nothing but a short cooldown, he gets infinite sustain. Compare to Swain. Do you see Hextech Swain? No. Do you see Hextech Morde? Yep. How about Annie? Nope. Rumble? Kat? Waiiit, there's a pattern emerging here.

Champions with health/no cost abilities get too much sustain in lane from spellvamp. It lets them heal while spamming abilities all over the place like they do normally. Comparatively, mana-using champions need to burn mana (with the exception of Annie, I guess) to heal with spellvamp.
However, I can't think of a systemic change that would resolve this issue without gimping manaless champions with spellvamp outside of laning.

[Daverin]

To be fair, Swain could be an exception to that, because instead of not benefitting from spellvamp, he just does not need it in place of AP, which contributes to his ult's healing; meanwhile, sustainability is not generally an issue for Swain, thanks to his nice passive. I don't know how soon you can get a hextech, but I'd imagine it is not too far off from when he gets bird, making it so that the reason he'd get it is redundant, and he'd do better focusing on retrieving AP and defensive stats (I'm looking at you, RoA.)

[Inhuman Bot]

Thing about hextech on Vlad is it isn't a spellvamp problem.
It is actually a Vlad problem. Because he has no mana.

Um, I'm pretty sure there's no caster in the game that actually realizes that they have mana except for calculating Archangel's Scepter bonus AP. It's even less of a problem after the last remaining source of mana burn (Wit's End) was taken out.

[tribble]

Um, I'm pretty sure there's no caster in the game that actually realizes that they have mana except for calculating Archangel's Scepter bonus AP. It's even less of a problem after the last remaining source of mana burn (Wit's End) was taken out.

Hi, I am the early game, and I am still important.


That said, I just had my first double explosion today! I am very excited, partially because it was one of only two good things that entire game. The other good thing was watching Sion, after acing the team, get taken down from full health to a sliver by the nexus turrets, and then running into the top inhibitor turret. Funniest thing I ever saw.

[ZombyWoof]

I didn't misread you. Nocturne, Jarvan, Irelia, Renekton, Swain, and Warwick are all tanky deeps. Maokai and Vlad can arguably be included there, as well, but I won't go into that.
Noc isn't tankydps :smallconfused:



He effectively has Annie's Q on a 3 second cooldown, except that it has no resource cost and it heals him.
Disintigrate: 90->250 damage, .75 AP ratio, can stun. CD 4 seconds
Transfusion: 70->250 damage, .6 AP ratio, heals for 15->25+.25 AP. CD 12->3 seconds

OH I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN THERE. THAT'S LIKE THE SAME EXACT THING!



His W singlehandedly makes him immune to all but a very small handful of abilities in the game. His E does fantastic AoE damage on a similarly tiny cooldown. He's currently the single best AP carry in the game; he is an excellent farmer, he's the single most sustainable mage in the game, he is exceedingly difficult to gank, he's naturally tanky, and he scales phenomenally well. That "lolol only nobs think vlad is op" argument is just wrong; Vlad was among the most-banned and most-picked champs at Dreamhack.
Being most-banned and most-picked doesn't mean he's op. In fact the only way you could define him being "op" is if you define the correct power level somewhere around... Veigar.



Is he impossible to kill? No, not quite. He's much harder to kill than most champions, though.
Not that much. My final Vlad build has 3500 HP. My final Annie build has 2600 HP.

Vlad: Rylai's, BVeil, Rabadon's, Sorc's, Void Staff, choice between Hourglass and Thronmail/Randuin's. Maximum AP: 548 Maximum HP: 3656

Annie: RoA, Archangel's/Hourglass/Thornmail, Void Staff, Sorc's, BVeil, Rabadon's. Maximum AP: 574 AP Maximum HP: 2645

Their armor and MRs are going to be approximately equivalent with Vlad coming out a bit ahead in the armor category (by about 50). And that's Annie. Shall I compare him to someone who has more than 1600 base HP?



Does he have Annie's damage? No, not quite. He's not far behind, though.
Actually he's WAAAAY behind Annie's damage... but thanks for trying. Let's try a few hypotheticals:

500 AP Vlad full combo (done properly):
Ult (will be 700) -> Q (627) -> E (416-666 if he's at max stax) -> W under for entire duration (508) -> Q(627) ult pops. 2878-3128... in 5 seconds.

500 AP Annie full combo (in 5 seconds)

Ult (850 + 260 in attacks + 675 in burn) -> Q (625) -> W (685) -> Q (625). 3720... 900-600 damage ahead of Vlad's full combo at level 18.

Or another comparison: 20 AP level 6.

Vlad:
Ult (164) -> Q (196) -> E (78-147) -> W for full dureation (118) is 556-625 damage depending on Tides stax.

Annie:
Ult (216 + 160 in attacks + 195 burn) -> Q (145) -> W (201) -> Q (145) is 1,062. Tibbers alone deals almost as much as Vlad in 5 seconds, and getting 2 attacks plus 3 tics on his aura is easy. With full combo? 2x the damage. Very, very similar damages there.



Can he tank? No, not quite, but he's far more survivable than any other AP carry, with the possible exception of Swain.
Or Ryze. Or Anivia. Or Sion. Or Leblanc. Or Kassadin. Wait, what was your point again? :smallconfused:



But you're probably right, ZW. I suggest you drop Reginald and Elementz a few notes suggesting that Vlad is in fact not that good, and certainly not tier 1 material, and that they should stop using him immediately.
I didn't say he wasn't "good." I said he was counterable and not OP and the problem lied not with Vlad or his kit, but with Hextech Gunblade giving him too much survivability.

Oh and you mention Elementz? List of Draft mages ranked higher:

TF, Annie, Malz, Anivia, Swain.

List of Solo mages ranked higher:

TF, Annie, Akali, Malz, Swain, Karthus.

Jeez, so op :smallconfused:



Let me put it this way ; it's his opinion and in no way should be used to make overarching commentary on the state of the game. It can be used to get a general idea, not to make truisms. Also, another hint would be to not assume that everyone plays one account.
Let me put it this way:

I'm revealing an expert's opinion on the matter. You're revealing your opinion on the matter. I'd like to see you back up your opinion with someone who's particularly good.

Also what's your account with the 2000 ELO? Which account is the one you used in Dreamhack? I'm really curious!



While I do post "troll" builds every now and then, assuming you're talking about AP Alistar here, you're doing me injustice. There's a number of competitive setups where AP Alistar is the optimal way to go. "Maximum effectiveness" varies so heavily from game to game; if you have a bursty AOE team, the extra burst from building Alistar full AP is more than desirable (especially Q + Passive) and the lack of survivability is completely negated by his ultimate and E.
Actually it was more of a comment that "MF doesn't build AP so her AP ratios are useless" :smallwink: I didn't want you going "well I did AP MF this one time and" :smallwink:



For what it's worth, while I like the approximate outcome of your Shen rework, I dislike the premise of making his itemization so single-minded. No current tank, in spite of having some conversions (Armor -> E+Damage for Malph, Armor -> W+Damage for Rammus, MR -> AP for Galio), has full conversion of any defensive stat into abilities like what you're suggesting here. Frankly, I don't think he really needs a complete rework; I think he just needs and adjustment in numbers. Like either way higher ratio and base value, or full HP-based Passive.
Counterexample: Ryze. There are only two abilities Ryze has that don't scale off mana, and one of them gives him mana and spellvamp. His current state is proof of concept: that one can give a champ single-minded tanky builds and not make them overpowered.

Incidentally, he's also tanky-dps that isn't op. I mean really, his core items are Banshee's/Frozen Heart/RoA/Archangel's. Between the four of them that's 900 HP, 99 armor, and 50 MR.



That's the biggest one, really; if his passive was worthwhile (right now it's useless early game where it's at its most important, and fairly useless lategame 'cause it's inefficient to itemize), he'd still be an extremely scary 1v1, a solid laner and a great lategame Tanky DPS (which, let's face it, is what he used to be before the nerf). You just got a Bloodrazor on Shen, and went to town on someone's face.
I definitely think his passive needs work but I'd like if his other ratios weren't literally useless to him.

[balistafreak]

Um, I'm pretty sure there's no caster in the game that actually realizes that they have mana except for calculating Archangel's Scepter bonus AP. It's even less of a problem after the last remaining source of mana burn (Wit's End) was taken out.

Buh?

Even on Ryze the zomfgwtfbbqlol mana stacker I find the constant threat of running out of mana right when it counts looming. I'll burn through anywhere through 400 (basic spell combo on a champ) to 900 (teamfight) in a single fight. When I've been in lane and running around for a while, those encounters really start to add up.

And don't get me started on just barely running out of mana for MASTERSPARK on Lux after a E-->Q combo. I take Clarity but it's on cooldown often enough...

The threat of dread OOM looms all the time, for me at least, even at level 18.

'course, this is why I main Jungle Udyr. That blue bar may be the most precious thing ever, but around level 10-14 you simply cease to care, 'cause all your skills decrease in cost as they level... although I suspect constantly having blue buff helps a lot.

[Faulty]

Um, I'm pretty sure there's no caster in the game that actually realizes that they have mana except for calculating Archangel's Scepter bonus AP. It's even less of a problem after the last remaining source of mana burn (Wit's End) was taken out.

You have apparently never played Anivia. Or Swain. Or Karthus or Kassadin or Orianna or AP Sion. Plenty of casters have mana issues. :smallconfused:

[ZombyWoof]

You have apparently never played Anivia. Or Swain. Or Karthus or Kassadin or Orianna or AP Sion. Plenty of casters have mana issues. :smallconfused:
Kassadin doesn't really have mana issues past the point where he gets RoA unless the fight goes on WAAAY too long. In that case, hand him a blue buff.

Ryze doesn't have mana problems past getting Cat/Tear unless you're doing something really, really weird.

And Vlad can't maintain 4 stax on E without minions nearby to Q on and even then he can't do it before level 7 (or without, wait for it, HEXTECH!) Plus his W takes away 20% of his health. 20%. One fifth. It's not like it's free.

[ex cathedra]

Noc isn't tankydps :smallconfused:
Builds Wriggles+Merc Treads+HoG, follows with ROMen+BVeil. What else would he be? He already has AD and Aspd steroids; building him with more than two or three offensive items is just silly.


Disintigrate: 90->250 damage, .75 AP ratio, can stun. CD 4 seconds
Transfusion: 70->250 damage, .6 AP ratio, heals for 15->25+.25 AP. CD 12->3 seconds

OH I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN THERE. THAT'S LIKE THE SAME EXACT THING!

Not quite, no, but quite close; Vlad beats Annie in the Q's effective-HP-swing by 25+.1 AP, usable 25% more often. My bad.

Not that much. My final Vlad build has 3500 HP. My final Annie build has 3000 HP.
But the Vlad build has much more effective HP from his spellvamp and Q, not to mention Trollpool. Because, you know, Trollpool.


Actually he's WAAAAY behind Annie's damage... but thanks for trying. Let's try a few hypotheticals:

Annie is a burst mage. Vlad does sustained damage. This is relevant.

Or Ryze. Or Anivia. Or Sion. Or Leblanc. Or Kassadin. Wait, what was your point again? :smallconfused:
See, I thought we were talking about viable AP carries. Sion? LeBlanc? Ryze? Really? Regardless of that, Sion can't compete with these mages in terms of carrying, LeBlanc is really squishy and unreliable (and Trollpool is better than blink in many cases), and while Ryze is tankier he has zero escape.

Let me put it this way:

I'm revealing an expert's opinion on the matter. You're revealing your opinion on the matter. I'd like to see you back up your opinion with someone who's particularly good.
Really? You know, when I read that tier list I didn't notice a paragraph that focused on whether or not Vlad was balanced. And, evidently, I'm revealing the opinion of myself and the game devs.

Also, it's 20% of his current health. Even from 3500 HP, that's likely recouped in less than 10 seconds.

[Cheesegear]

So, Taric...

Regrowth Pendant, Faerie Charm, Health Pot. Try not to die.

=> Emblem of Valour, Mana Manipulator. Boots if I can afford it.
=> Aegis => Mercury Treads
=> Depending on Team, Soul Shroud <=> Stark's
=> Malady, Nashor's Tooth

Repost. Am I terribad?

[Draken]

You have apparently never played Anivia. Or Swain. Or Karthus or Kassadin or Orianna or AP Sion. Plenty of casters have mana issues. :smallconfused:

This. Swain in particular is terribly mana hungry even at level 18 and sporting blue buff (with regen masteries and runes to boot).

[Arbitrarity]

Nah, you can beat Vlad in lane. It relies too much on his early weakness though.

What I am saying, however, is that in early-midgame laning (5-13 ish), Hextech spellvamp's anti-attrition benefits only manaless champions.
Champions that have mana (Kassadin, Ryze) need to get extra mana pool increasing items (Catalyst, Tear), and so can't afford Hextechs. Not only that, but even if they had/have spellvamp, they still can't afford to spam their spells to last hit (well... Ryze can if he backs reasonably often). While they do get sustainability from Catalyst, it's not on the same level as "heals 100 health every 6 seconds".
The only times I suceed against Vlad in lane are when
I get an early, sucessful gank
Vlad is bad
Vlad pushes the creep wave too much and lets me deny him (subset of "is bad")
Vlad engages on half health and lets me rape him as Corki
I get tons of early MR on Corki, and Vlad tries to trade hits too long (subset of "is bad")
Vlad does not respect my bear tibbers, and gets ignited (subset of "Vlad is bad")
Vlad wastes pool on farming, fights anyways (subset of "is bad")
Vlad initiates with pool (subset of "is bad")
I am playing someone with crazy minion clearing powers, so can actually push and go back without Vlad raping my tower (oh wait, he tanks the minions and uses his E with hextech. This never happens unless Vlad is bad)
I have regular cover on my lane to counteract Vlad's ridiculous anti-attrition, or Teleport

[Mtg_player_zach]

Kassadin doesn't really have mana issues past the point where he gets RoA unless the fight goes on WAAAY too long. In that case, hand him a blue buff.

Ryze doesn't have mana problems past getting Cat/Tear unless you're doing something really, really weird.

And Vlad can't maintain 4 stax on E without minions nearby to Q on and even then he can't do it before level 7 (or without, wait for it, HEXTECH!) Plus his W takes away 20% of his health. 20%. One fifth. It's not like it's free.

Kassadin usually builds Banshee's veil out of his catalyst, not RoA. He is one of the highest priority blue buff champions in the game.



Nah, you can beat Vlad in lane. It relies too much on his early weakness though.

What I am saying, however, is that in early-midgame laning (5-13 ish), Hextech spellvamp's anti-attrition benefits only manaless champions.
Champions that have mana (Kassadin, Ryze) need to get extra mana pool increasing items (Catalyst, Tear), and so can't afford Hextechs. Not only that, but even if they had/have spellvamp, they still can't afford to spam their spells to last hit (well... Ryze can if he backs reasonably often). While they do get sustainability from Catalyst, it's not on the same level as "heals 100 health every 6 seconds".
The only times I suceed against Vlad in lane are when
I get an early, sucessful gank
Vlad is bad
Vlad pushes the creep wave too much and lets me deny him (subset of "is bad")
Vlad engages on half health and lets me rape him as Corki
I get tons of early MR on Corki, and Vlad tries to trade hits too long (subset of "is bad")
Vlad does not respect my bear tibbers, and gets ignited (subset of "Vlad is bad")
Vlad wastes pool on farming, fights anyways (subset of "is bad")
Vlad initiates with pool (subset of "is bad")
I am playing someone with crazy minion clearing powers, so can actually push and go back without Vlad raping my tower (oh wait, he tanks the minions and uses his E with hextech. This never happens unless Vlad is bad)
I have regular cover on my lane to counteract Vlad's ridiculous anti-attrition, or Teleport



11. You smack him in the face and deny him cause you are JAX and you are MID. (subset of "is bad")

[Daverin]

Err, I generally have not had any mana troubles with Swain, from early to late. He generally can get enough mana to do what he needs to do in early game from the passive regain, and although his ult can drain him in a teamfight, I have as yet to see one where I was a liability or unable to do anything because mana ran out. Again, my experience: Swain's mana is enough to get him where he needs to go.

About Vlad: All I can say about Vlad is, he is not going to be that tough despite his health because he'll be more focused on AP/health than the other tanky mages, and thus have less room for mitigation stats. Health with no barrier, no matter how high, generally is just a scary number. Also, I have to say, I don't see Vlad as that good because, what does he do in a teamfight? I'm sorry, but his damage just is not up to snuff for sustained; you can tell me what you think, but I really can't believe it until I see otherwise. Certainly, if I want damage, call in Ryze and Swain before him. The problem? I'd also call other mages in if I want utility. He has two utilities to him. First, trollpool, which can slow. Okay at chasing, but I feel that slow can be more troublesome than most given he could pop out in the wrong place (say, by a tower when a ranged slow could have perhaps had him dead.) Second utility is his ult. Okay, let's face it, 20% increased damage on everyone is good. In fact, this alone is enough reason for me to say "Hey, sure, I'd want a Vlad in this match!" Even if he lacks the output, he'll see to it everyone else, especially any carries, more than make up for it. Of course, once that happens, its back to Vlad just being there, trying to look at the enemy team in a way as to become the target.

So basically Vlad does two things very well: survive in the most annoying way possible through a heal, health (which, although easily breakable, is still a barrier, made effective through healing), and his trollpool; and he can make enemies in a teamfight feel extra pain from those who it matters. In other words, I think Vlad needs to be looked at, not because he is op, but because his strong points are... what's that word? Oh yes, anti-fun! :smalltongue:


Cheese: I tend to shoot for chalice asap, simply because Taric can have mana issues laning despite his passive, as he has no easy way of harassing ranged enough to get good chances to hit minions, and that isn't taking into account that you won't get many if you are last hitting responsibly (of course, not I said harass; Taric is, in my experience (I really need to find a way to back it up with something else here...), one of the better lanefighters; a single target stun of a fair duration, a heal that can hit both him and his partner, and his awesome armor buff, which can be used as a hard hitting burst (as I understand it, you should be REALLY careful with that, though. I probably overuse it,) makes him able to turn a lane he is being harassed into a kill for him or his partner.

That said, it's Taric. One of his perks is that he is very item independent. Looking at your build, you are trying to get aura items asap, which is pretty much what you should be doing. Other than that somewhat concrete rule, Taric's build is fairly flexible and none too high in priority.

[ex cathedra]

About Vlad: All I can say about Vlad is, he is not going to be that tough despite his health because he'll be more focused on AP/health than the other tanky mages, and thus have less room for mitigation stats. Health with no barrier, no matter how high, generally is just a scary number. Also, I have to say, I don't see Vlad as that good because, what does he do in a teamfight?
I'm sorry, but his damage just is not up to snuff for sustained; you can tell me what you think, but I really can't believe it until I see otherwise. Certainly, if I want damage, call in Ryze and Swain before him. The problem? I'd also call other mages in if I want utility. He has two utilities to him. First, trollpool, which can slow. Okay at chasing, but I feel that slow can be more troublesome than most given he could pop out in the wrong place (say, by a tower when a ranged slow could have perhaps had him dead.) Second utility is his ult. Okay, let's face it, 20% increased damage on everyone is good. In fact, this alone is enough reason for me to say "Hey, sure, I'd want a Vlad in this match!" Even if he lacks the output, he'll see to it everyone else, especially any carries, more than make up for it. Of course, once that happens, its back to Vlad just being there, trying to look at the enemy team in a way as to become the target.

So basically Vlad does two things very well: survive in the most annoying way possible through a heal, health (which, although easily breakable, is still a barrier, made effective through healing), and his trollpool; and he can make enemies in a teamfight feel extra pain from those who it matters. In other words, I think Vlad needs to be looked at, not because he is op, but because his strong points are... what's that word? Oh yes, anti-fun! :smalltongue:

This post seems kind of weird to me, because you ask questions that seem like they're rhetorical, but they're phrased in a way that suggests that they aren't. For example, you're all like
Also, I have to say, I don't see Vlad as that good because, what does he do in a teamfight? but then you're saying stuff like
Okay, let's face it, 20% increased damage on everyone is good. In fact, this alone is enough reason for me to say "Hey, sure, I'd want a Vlad in this match!"

Also, not sustained enough for you? He has a 600 damage Q on a 1.8 second cooldown and an 800 damage AoE on a 2.7 second cooldown. And he can cast those forever due to spellvamp.

[Daverin]

Sorry about the question about the questions; they were mostly rhetorical, although simultaneously serious to a certain extent. Yes, I am aware that is probably confusing, especially to communicate through the internet. I was not thinking of it at the time, however. :smalltongue:

And like I said, I just have not seen the damage from Vlad. I'll admit, I may just have as yet to see a single good Vlad, so I'll with hold my judgment there (although since they can even just build AP and have something that can work, I feel like I should have at least seen that damage being done.) Also, I really should consider that Swain is probably one of the better champs against Vlad in the first place... Still though, even if he can do decent damage, that is quite possible to mitigate, and then we are back to what I called his two strongest points.

One thing is certain to me though; he needs a rework. How he is reworked is, clearly, not as certain, but his gameplay style, if nothing else, is about as close to anti-fun as any champion could possibly be.

[Moonshadow]

Since I can't find one anywhere, I'm trying to make an AD Kassadin build.

I'm thinking 9/0/21, with APen Reds, Armor yellows, MP/5Blues, MSpd Quints.


Rejuvenation Bead + Faerie Charm + Red Pot
Boots 1 + Philo Stone
Brutaliser
Mercs
Emblem of Valor
Wit's End
Starks Fervor
Youmuus


Unsure what to add past here. But the whole point of the build is to max APen and do what would basically be true damage to everyone except the Tank.

[Math_Mage]

Not that much. My final Vlad build has 3500 HP. My final Annie build has 2600 HP.

Vlad: Rylai's, BVeil, Rabadon's, Sorc's, Void Staff, choice between Hourglass and Thronmail/Randuin's. Maximum AP: 548 Maximum HP: 3656

Annie: RoA, Archangel's/Hourglass/Thornmail, Void Staff, Sorc's, BVeil, Rabadon's. Maximum AP: 574 AP Maximum HP: 2645

Their armor and MRs are going to be approximately equivalent with Vlad coming out a bit ahead in the armor category (by about 50). And that's Annie. Shall I compare him to someone who has more than 1600 base HP?

A little confused on where your numbers are coming from. Why would Vlad have an armor advantage with (effectively) the exact same build and slightly poorer base armor? Also, I feel like the extra 2100 eHP isn't exactly insignificant, even before you take trollpool into account. That makes Vlad waaaaay harder to kill than Annie.


Actually he's WAAAAY behind Annie's damage... but thanks for trying. Let's try a few hypotheticals:

500 AP Vlad full combo (done properly):
Ult (will be 700) -> Q (627) -> E (416-666 if he's at max stax) -> W under for entire duration (508) -> Q(627) ult pops. 2878-3128... in 5 seconds.

500 AP Annie full combo (in 5 seconds)

Ult (850 + 260 in attacks + 675 in burn) -> Q (625) -> W (685) -> Q (625). 3720... 900-600 damage ahead of Vlad's full combo at level 18.

I would think Vlad would go REQWQE. Seems to be a more efficient use of health and cooldowns. A quibble: when I do the numbers for Vlad's W accounting for the 1775 bonus health from BVeil, Rylai's, and 500 AP, I get 543 before ult bonus. Meanwhile, Annie's ult base is 800 rather than 850.

Main problem with this comparison, though, is that you have to tack on 14% of the damage done to Vlad's enemies from other sources due to his ult. This is difficult to quantify.

So I don't think you can conclude that Vlad's damage is way behind Annie's, considering 5-second burst. Meanwhile, Vlad's survivability is significantly better. Balanced out by Annie's AOE stun, though.

[Inhuman Bot]

Hi, I am the early game, and I am still important.
.

You mean the part where you autoattack to last hit creeps, because harassing is extremely ineffectual?


You have apparently never played Anivia. Or Swain. Or Karthus or Kassadin or Orianna or AP Sion. Plenty of casters have mana issues. :smallconfused:

uh, Swain, Karthus, Kassadin and Orianna are the antithesis of mana issues. The first three have ways to refill their mana, and Orianna has rock bottom low mana costs that can easily be ignored with mana regeneration and proper spell usage. (IE, not freaking out and mashing Q every time it's off cooldown.)

Note that I never play Anivia or Sion.


Buh?

Even on Ryze the zomfgwtfbbqlol mana stacker I find the constant threat of running out of mana right when it counts looming

I'm going to be frank. I have no idea how you could mangle Ryze so improperly that you ever ran out of mana beyond level 6. And you really shouldn't before then. :smallconfused:


Now, the last thing I want to do is type a bunch of words about a video game. Especially when that game is LoL. However, that is exactly what I am going to do as I reply to this comment directed at me from the last thread, which is actually a legitimate question.


This is why Kat is a bad character. It depends on your opponents being bad. That is the main failing of a lot of characters, but to be fair, that is a pretty dependable thing to rely on. She more or less doesn't have an ult, and the rest of her skillset is NOT strong enough to make up for that.



the rest of the post.

The Giantitp servers apparently failed, and my post has been deleted. I spent a good 5-10 minutes typing it, which is way longer then I ever wanted to spend typing about LoL, so you can talk to me ingame or something because there's no way I'm copy and pasting the post to format it neatly again.

[Adumbration]

It has begun. Well, the stream at least.

EDIT: Wow, a working tournament draft pick. Cool.

EDIT 2: AND a working spectator mode. Very cool.

[Inhuman Bot]

League of Legends: LulzSec can't crash our servers as fast as the IT crew can.

[Dragonus45]

damnit i wish i could get mumble to work on linux, i want to talk right now so badly. This match is so fun.

[Inhuman Bot]

Dyrus is literally the best Singed player.

[Arbitrarity]

Dyrus #1 indeed. Fling dat Karthus
Must remember to mash shift-4 all game, every game

[Dragonus45]

Yea, he is bringing the pain, and since its singed he brings quite a bit funk as well

[ex cathedra]

Wow.

That was really cool.

[TechnOkami]

Um... can anyone link to where this is please?

[Dragonus45]

That was amazing, i cant believe the Absolute amazing Dryus was pulling off.

[Arbitrarity]

http://season-one-championship.na.leagueoflegends.com/

First game is over, AAA loses to EG.

[TechnOkami]

http://season-one-championship.na.leagueoflegends.com/ (Here)

First game is over, AAA loses to EG.

Hm... the link isn't working...

[Inhuman Bot]

Neckbeard and the guy from office space are professional commentators.

IE, two crackheads pulled off the street and given 10 bucks.

They are being paid, ergo, they are professionals!