Dread Necromancer/Swiftblade idea

[Treblain]

I had an idea for a DN/Swiftblade combo. I came up with the idea for a few reasons. One, the DN meets several of the qualifications easily: it has better BAB, weapon proficiency, and is good in melee at low levels. Second, many people consider 8th level the jumping off point for DNs, which is pretty much where they qualify for swiftblade. Third, they have minions, so they never have to worry about not having allies to cast haste on.

The obvious problem is not being able to cast haste. That is rectified by Arcane Disciple (Time). This is still a problem, since you can only cast it once per day, which sucks. You can get it a second time with the Celerity domain, but it's still not enough.

Are there any other ways for a DN to get Haste? My current idea is taking one or two levels of Trapsmith from Dungeonscape. One level of factotum, Able Learner, and a good Intelligence could pull it off, netting me two or three more castings of Haste.

So then I'm MAD between INT, WIS, and CHA, plus STR and CON, but it sort of works.

Alternately, I simply use the build as a BBEG, not a PC, and thus I only need him to cast Haste once since the heroes won't encounter him twice a day. It will terrify the party; suddenly his slow, lurching zombie minions become Rage Zombies!

Any thoughts? Anything obvious I'm missing? Please don't respond "Your build is bad and you should feel bad." I don't really care how powerful it is, I just want it vaguely workable.

[Gametime]

Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste.

If you have a lenient DM (or are DMing yourself), this won't be a problem, but Arcane Disciple by itself isn't going to qualify you for Swiftblade because you can't cast haste from all your third level slots.

Of course, you already mentioned Trapsmith; entering that class before you have six levels of Dread Necromancer would also qualify you for Swiftblade. Just make sure you can't cast third level spells.

[NeoSeraphi]

The real problem is that with a class like Swiftblade, the +1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class HAS to apply to the class that can cast Haste. (Even if it's not RAW, it's RAI and I think most DMs would agree with me)

It's a cool idea, but I don't think it's one you can pull off. The Dread Necro is supposed to be a necromancer, not a generalist arcane caster and not a gish.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The real problem is that with a class like Swiftblade, the +1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class HAS to apply to the class that can cast Haste. (Even if it's not RAW, it's RAI and I think most DMs would agree with me)

It's a cool idea, but I don't think it's one you can pull off. The Dread Necro is supposed to be a necromancer, not a generalist arcane caster and not a gish.

[Citation Needed] Unless you are the author of the class, we don't have a way to know what are the RAI.

Besides almost all prestige classes that advance spellcasting says something along the lines of "If you had more than one XXXX casting class, select which one is advanced by XXXX prg. class" so there is precedent to qualify with one class and advance another.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Extra spell, while not the most optimized method, can nab you haste as a level 3 at level 9. If you want to get it earlier then you may be able to if you can find a spell list that has haste lower then level 3. In pathfinder/3.Pe the Summoner list allows this, but in strait 3.5e I do not know if a list with haste as anything less then a level 3 exists, so this may not be the best option.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Extra spell, while not the most optimized method, can nab you haste as a level 3 at level 9. If you want to get it earlier then you may be able to if you can find a spell list that has haste lower then level 3. In pathfinder/3.Pe the Summoner list allows this, but in strait 3.5e I do not know if a list with haste as anything less then a level 3 exists, so this may not be the best option.

Trapsmith gets Haste as a level 1 spell, there is a reason artificers love that class

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, in that case then just take extra spell at level 6 and congratulations, you now have haste as a level 1 with no PrC dips. The upside? You did not need to sacrifice anything to enter into a PrC dip. The downside? You blew a feat adding a single spell to your list, which is kinda an underwhelming use for a feat. So yeah, it may not be all that optimal but Extra Spell can get you what you want if your ok with blowing a feat on it.

[Godskook]

Interestingly enough, snagging it off the trapsmith list allows you to qualify for swiftblade by RAW(you can cast 1st level spells out of 3rd level slots).

[danzibr]

Interestingly enough, snagging it off the trapsmith list allows you to qualify for swiftblade by RAW(you can cast 1st level spells out of 3rd level slots).

Yup, nailed it.

On a side note, I LOVE this idea! I love Dread Necro and Swiftblade. They're so different that I never thought to combine them. Nom nom...


It will terrify the party; suddenly his slow, lurching zombie minions become Rage Zombies!

[Glimbur]

I hear that Drakehelms from the Eberron Explorer's handbook allow you to have more spells known. I don't have that book though so I can't confirm if this adds spells that are not on your class list. Runestaffs will not help as they require the spells to be on your class spell list.

[danzibr]

Hmm... I also thought of something else. If you're using this as your BBEG you can just gestalt your Dread Necro with this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192259). I'd suggest dropping the BAB to 3/4 though.

Depends on how high you want your dude to be though.

[Amphetryon]

Extra spell, while not the most optimized method, can nab you haste as a level 3 at level 9. If you want to get it earlier then you may be able to if you can find a spell list that has haste lower then level 3. In pathfinder/3.Pe the Summoner list allows this, but in strait 3.5e I do not know if a list with haste as anything less then a level 3 exists, so this may not be the best option.

While a minority on the boards, some DMs do count Extra Spell as list specific, making it completely useless for DN, Warmage, and Beguiler. Just sayin'.

[Treblain]

Yeah, I don't think Extra Spell gets you spells off the list, even for Beguilers, Warmages, and DNs. That's clearly not what the feat is meant for.


The real problem is that with a class like Swiftblade, the +1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class HAS to apply to the class that can cast Haste. (Even if it's not RAW, it's RAI and I think most DMs would agree with me)

It's a cool idea, but I don't think it's one you can pull off. The Dread Necro is supposed to be a necromancer, not a generalist arcane caster and not a gish.

I don't think so. First of all, the DN is the casting class. Even if it's a divine spell. A cleric could qualify for Swiftblade, they just wouldn't advance their casting from it. Second of all, like many other prestige classes, the Swiftblade has a paragraph about multiple casting classes entering. That gives the impression that you can advance either without mention of the possibility that one of those classes might not be able to cast Haste already.

EDIT: And if it's not supposed to be a gish, why does it have a close range fear aura, touch attacks, a martial weapon proficiency, light armor proficiency, and a better HD? /EDIT

But as to the "Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste." Hmmmmm. I was aware of that, but I wasn't thinking about what to do with the other spell slots. Tricky wording.

It can't possibly mean you must use all your 3rd level spell slots to cast haste. What if you had a leftover spell slot at the end of the day, and then rested? Would you be banned from Swiftbladia forever?

So I think you can just cast your Arcane Disciple spell and no other 3rd level spells for a level. It'll be gimping yourself, but the wording doesn't say you can't use the slots for Arcane Strike or something.

[danzibr]

So uhh, Treblain, don't mean to be nosy but what do you think about the gestalt idea?

[Pechvarry]

If you can rationalize arcane disciple for swiftblade entry, maybe you can find some recasting tricks instead, to emulate additional uses. I'm too lazy to look up swiftblade right now, but if the class features are compatible with haste as a SLA, perhaps you could use arcane disciple for entry and a dragonpact or something for extra uses.

Not a single one of Dragon Compendium's bloodlines (which seem quite fantastic for the trio of full list spontaneous casters) have Haste!

[Treblain]

I don't have much experience with gestalt, but I might consider trying it if I end up using this as a BBEG for a campaign I run. The idea was inspired by a culture of tribal warrior necromancers in a campaign setting I'm working on.