Paladin vs Monk

[Yeturs]

So, my friend and i are in a debate about who would win, a paladin or a monk. To decide this, we have agreed to fight them against each other.

We are in all core, banned leadership and custom magic item guidelines, and our statline is 18, 16, 16, 14, 12, 10.

I am the paladin, im looking into ubercharging from a Pegasus mount with an outsider-bane holy radiant energy weapon, but im not sure exactally what to do.

What feats do i like? Any magic items to creame him? Anything specifically paladinly awesome i should be remembering?

[Curious]

So, my friend and i are in a debate about who would win, a paladin or a monk. To decide this, we have agreed to fight them against each other.

We are in all core, banned leadership and custom magic item guidelines, and our statline is 18, 16, 16, 14, 12, 10.

I am the paladin, im looking into ubercharging from a Pegasus mount with an outsider-bane holy radiant energy weapon, but im not sure exactally what to do.

What feats do i like? Any magic items to creame him? Anything specifically paladinly awesome i should be remembering?

Paladin wins because the monk is so un-synergistic he trips himself.

[Dr.Epic]

If he just goes LG monk and you lose your paladin status from attacking him that'd be hilarious!:smallbiggrin:

Also, as I've seen on Deadliest Warrior, you might want to play this fight scenario several times so the random fact doesn't play here.

[Yeturs]

Yeah i know, but I need a way to prove how much better paladin is then monk, or he wont believe me :P

@Dr epic: Lol, forgot about that... Yeah... That would blow.

And were going 2/3 in different arenas our friends are making.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Paladin wins because the monk is so un-synergistic he trips himself.

And because of BAB and HP comparison.

[Eldariel]

Sighz. What level does this happen on? Anyways yeah, max out the Mounted Combat-line stuff. Guess you put 18 in Str, 16 to Cha, 16 to Con, 14 to Wis, 12 to Dex, 10 to Int (could have 12 Wis, 14 Dex and stat boosters to cast rest of your spells and get that bonus 4th level slot).

Carry reach weapon; you'd optimally want to pick up something with Combat Reflexes to take AoOs or at least force him to Tumble. Prolly not much of an issue for him, of course.

Other than that, yeah, Power Attack, two-hander, prepare appropriate spells (relevant Pally spells include Divine Favor, Lesser Restoration, Resist Energy [if you get Orange Prism Ioun Stone, level 20 Pally would get full benefit], Shield Other, Heal Mount, Magic Circle against.., Death Ward, Holy Sword, Restoration) and then it's all equipment-mancy.

You obviously want Improved Initiative and if you don't qualify for Combat Expertise or Combat Reflexes, rest is probably stuff like Blind-Fight, Dodge, Weapon Focus and what-have-you. Don't forget to make use out of your long duration buffs (Shield Other with your Mount; you can Share it so it goes both ways or just cast it on the mount so half damage done to you is done to it - and Resist Energy), equipping your mount (at the very least, get it Bardings and all that) and stacking out your AC (including secondary Defending Weapon if DM allows), getting miss chance (Ring of Blinking could work though it goes both ways), and overall, equipment-mancy

[Yeturs]

Eldariel, thank you. Were 20th level, and im playing a human for that bonus feat and neato skill points.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel, thank you. Were 20th level, and im playing a human for that bonus feat and neato skill points.

Bonus Feat too good when the best ones left are along the lines of Weapon Focus. :smallwink: Guess you could pick up some crafting feats tho; those are strong and you have spells. Just pay special attention to for which you can match the prerequisites (and don't forget collaboration; if you pay for the spellslot and have the appropriate Craft-feat, you should be fine - PHB has rules for paying for spellslots). You could run Wild Elf for +2 Dex, -2 Int tho; that'd be probably slightly stronger though you'd basically wipe your skill point allotment.

Is high level magic forbidden? 'cause Polymorph Any Object is notably, egregiously permanent. And just maxing cross-class Use Magic Device and whipping out scrolls of 9th level spells would obviously be optimal otherwise; might want to bring this up and point out how Commoners are just as good as Monks/Pallys in that and thus suggest to e.g. forbid Use Magic Device (as it's not a class skill for either class; tho Pally slightly better there as it's Cha-based though).

[Yeturs]

Ah, Were running with UMD so far, yeah. I dont plan on using it much, but i do have 22 ranks in it.

Also, I have to stick to PHB races. Was thinking maybe dwarf or half orc? in stead of human?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ah, Were running with UMD so far, yeah. I dont plan on using it much, but i do have 22 ranks in it.

Also, I have to stick to PHB races. Was thinking maybe dwarf or half orc? in stead of human?

Half-orc=example of strength bonus and darkvision being overrated.

Dwarf is decent, but human is better, unless the monk is a giant, orc, or goblinoid

[Yeturs]

Ok, got something close to built.

So, I remember i had a way of getting X3 twice on mounted charge on like a barbarian or something a while back. Was that leap attack? I think so, but any big ideas for things i can use in core?

[Eldariel]

Ah, Were running with UMD so far, yeah. I dont plan on using it much, but i do have 22 ranks in it.

Also, I have to stick to PHB races. Was thinking maybe dwarf or half orc? in stead of human?

Yeah, no. Don't bother; taking penalty to your Charisma isn't too strong on a somewhat Cha-focused character, especially since you'd better be able to make your saves vs. Monk's usual ****.

If you do allow UMD (how the frig do you get 22 ranks in a cross-class skill? Either way, max ranks and spend all your stats on pumping Cha as high as possible including Old age, get Circlet of Persuasion and go from there; 36 Cha, 11 ranks, Circlet, 1 competence, 1 luck and all the synergies get you 11+13+3+1+1+4 = +33 for scrolls; not quite the +37-+45 you'd want for CL 17-25 but good as it [still 45% chance to activate CL 25 Shapechange each turn] gets without custom magic items or using Awaken-loop for arbitrarily high score), get scrolls of Disjunction (since he's doing the same), Shapechange (high Cha + Beholder = fun; also, Solar, Balor, Nightcrawler, all that dominates), Astral Projection (immortality!), Gate (bring Great Wyrms or such in), Time Stop, all that and be an Item Wizard. Also, Candle of Invocation and Dust of Sneezing and Choking (cursed item, just check it out) should probably be banned for this to have any relevance whatsoever, and obviously custom items.


In the event that you do decide to actually have something involving the class abilities, I could give you a few pointers though:
- Lesser (or Normal) Rod of Quicken Spell + Glove of Storing (free action to retrieve and return item there) = Quicken each round for 3 rounds. Letting go of your two-hander with one hand and returning that one hand is a free action thus enabling you to draw the Rod. This allows quickening, among others, your Divine Favor, Lesser Restoration, Heal Mount, Dispel Magic and even Holy Sword/Death Ward if you invest in the Normal version (might be unnecessary though). You could own a second copy to replace the first one if it runs out of charges, even; drawing it is a move action but removing the old one from the glove and dropping it are both free actions as is putting the new one in the glove.
- Dispel Magic is actually useful. While you couldn't dispel anything from a real caster, many magic items have appallingly low caster levels, many low enough for a normal Dispel Magic to have a chance at dispelling them. Quicken it whenever you don't have a buff/heal to Quicken.
- You obviously want a +1 weapon with as many useful magic abilities as you can fit on it (not Speed; get Boots of Speed instead, for similar effect and bonus speed and +1 to hit and AC at much lower price). Holy Sword makes it +5 anyways. This also makes any backup weapons you carry equally scary. And get the weapon out of Adamantine for Sundering Shenanigans (hell, consider learning Improved Sunder yourself in case you gotta sunder something on him).
- Don't forget backup Ranged Weapon (e.g. bow).
- You could perhaps fit EWP: Spiked Chain in there and use that as your primary weapon when not charging, whipping Lance out only for charges (should do enough damage as is). Also, consider permanent Enlarge Person and some sort of Huge-sized Mount; 20' reach and size modifiers are convenient for e.g. Tripping.
- Focus on having at least See Invisibility (e.g. Hand of Glory), and preferably True Seeing (Gem, Robe of Eyes, all the superoverpriced stuff). Monk can Hide but he can't Hide without cover/concealment. You're not beating his Hide-check with Spot though.
- Animated Shield and all that; this should be obvious. Sufficient to say, your AC should at the very least be in the mid 40s (10 + 3 Dex + 8 Mithral Fullplate + 5 Enhancement + 4 Mithral Tower Shield + 5 Enhancement + 5 Deflection + 5 Natural Armor + 1 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone + 1 Haste + 1 Dodge = 48 without Defending, Combat Expertise and all that) and any form of miss chance is v. good. Also, Freedom of Movement obviously.
- Obviously max out Str first. Then Con, Dex, Cha, Wis in that approximate order (use Ioun Stones is DM doesn't allow combining slotted items). Might want Tomes for Str and Con.
- To hit-wise we're looking at 20 BAB + 12ish Strength (18 + 5 Levels + 5 Tome + 6 Item) + 5 Weapon + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Haste + 1 Competence [Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone] = +40. Divine Favor would raise it to +43. The Tower Shield, if used, would drop it to 41 though. Charges are +43 and if you do somehow fit Tripping into all this, against him Tripped it would be effective +45-+47.


Ok, got something close to built.

So, I remember i had a way of getting X3 twice on mounted charge on like a barbarian or something a while back. Was that leap attack? I think so, but any big ideas for things i can use in core?

Spirited Charge is the extent of multipliers that exist in Core without Polymorph-shenanigans. You could perhaps get 300ish damage. Are you allowed to Smite, btw? That is, is Monk allowed to just negate that ability? 'cause that determines much on how much Cha is worth to you.


EDIT: Don't forget to get a Luckblade without Wishes left. The key is, it allows you to reroll a save once per day. Decreases the chance of you dying to random natural 1.

[Coidzor]

So, I remember i had a way of getting X3 twice on mounted charge on like a barbarian or something a while back. Was that leap attack? I think so, but any big ideas for things i can use in core?

Valorous Lance is x3 on a mounted charge (2x lance, x2 valorous weapon property), but Valorous is from Unapproachable East so no go in Core Only. Not sure what the second trebling would be from.

[Flickerdart]

His first move is probably going to be Quivering Palm, so be ready for that. If you can, avoid getting in range through a reach weapon plus Ride-By Attack or Flyby Attack on your mount. Since he can't reach you in the air, and can't ready an action to hit you since you're too far away, you've pretty much won. Then again, considering how powerful you can get a charge, and how low his HP will be, he might very well be dead within the first round. Don't forget massive damage saves!
Put cool stuff like Vicious on your lance, since you can afford to sacrifice your own HP to drain his. If it's SRD, not Core, only, then Collision is a nice weapon enchantment because the flat bonus will get multiplied. Spell Storing is nice too; buy a Scorching Ray casting, tell the guy to stick it in your lance, profit.

[Eldariel]

His first move is probably going to be Quivering Palm, so be ready for that. If you can, avoid getting in range through a reach weapon plus Ride-By Attack or Flyby Attack on your mount. Since he can't reach you in the air, and can't ready an action to hit you since you're too far away, you've pretty much won. Then again, considering how powerful you can get a charge, and how low his HP will be, he might very well be dead within the first round. Don't forget massive damage saves!

Given you probably make all Fort-saves on 2 (massive Con + Cha both to the save, good progression and probably Cloak of Res +5), you only need to avoid natural 1s; for that the Luck Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#luckBlade) (without Wishes) alongside Death Ward is the perfect tool and you absolutely should have at least one. It's 22k, so rather affordable with level 20 WBL.

EDIT: Oh, and Detect Magic, Arcane Sight and Enlarge Person can all be Permanencied; it may be worth it to buy Permanencied casting of each as they're pretty cheap (PHB has the rules for spellcasting services again).

[Yeturs]

Lots and lots of really good information here, thank you all very much.

The UMD skill: I have 11 ranks, sorry. I invested 22 ranks for 11 ranks in cross class, just wrote it wrong.

Also, if he is worth his salt, he will be good, denying me Smite evil.

[Lord.Sorasen]

His first move is probably going to be Quivering Palm, so be ready for that. If you can, avoid getting in range through a reach weapon plus Ride-By Attack or Flyby Attack on your mount.

If you have a feat to spare, get battle blessing. Death ward is a paladin spell. So you can be immune to quivering palm even if the monk wins initiative.

[Deimess]

I really wanna know how this plays out, please post the results when the duel is over :smallbiggrin:!

I think you'll be fine in melee, and there isn't much need for pelting him with arrows since he can probably snatch/deflect them. I guess he can also dimension door onto your flying mount.....once.

[Eldariel]

Also, if he is worth his salt, he will be good, denying me Smite evil.

Yeah, I was more thinking how you're arranging this; after all, it's not really testing Paladin's abilities if all his Anti-Evil abilities do nothing. Not that it'd matter much; costs no action to use Smite anyways and you'll kinda detect if he's evil by virtue of being a Paladin anyways. And you should beat him regardless.

Still, worth considering that Pally loses out on a couple of big class features in this test; mayhap perter him to do two tests, one with Paladin in his element (against evil opponent) and one with whatever alignment he so desires.

EDIT: But seriously, try and get the following banned:
- UMD
- Candle of Invocation, Dust of Sneezing and Choking
- Custom Items (well, obv by default but just make sure)
- Any Wishes from e.g. Ring of Three Wishes or Luckblade
- Overall, probably best if all permanent consumables (things you can't get back by resting; stuff like Wish from Luckblade which is lost permanently when used, not the reroll ability which is once/day) - this'd clear a ton of crap out of the game.

This would, most importantly, make classes matter worth a crap. I'm fairly confident a Commoner could beat both of your builds without those rules in play.

[Flickerdart]

If you have a feat to spare, get battle blessing. Death ward is a paladin spell. So you can be immune to quivering palm even if the monk wins initiative.
Battle Blessing isn't core.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Battle Blessing isn't core.

I will admit: whoops, I got so excited about the idea of battle blessing paladin that I completely forgot about the requirements. Sorry :[

Still same about death ward, though. Protection from the instant kill is generally a good idea.

[Lhurgyof]

He should make it a sundering-based monk.

Isn't there a feat where you roll a concentration check for damage against object and it ignores hardness? I'm sure he could do something with that and totally **** up your day.

[Yeturs]

So, I asked him about UMD and he said "Nah, your a spellcaster, so no umd gives you a huge advantage over me" So im going with it.

Also, i will surely post the results up here.

[Eldariel]

He should make it a sundering-based monk.

Isn't there a feat where you roll a concentration check for damage against object and it ignores hardness? I'm sure he could do something with that and totally **** up your day.

Not really a major issue given while he's busy attacking objects, the Pally can just kill him (Quick Draw one of your dozen +1 backup weapon, kill). It's not like fights like this tend to last many rounds either way, and if the Pally gets the first attack (seems likely given Pegasus's speed and Pally's intent of mounted charging; Monk has no good way of approaching and attacking efficiently in Core so Monk might frankly prefer that), this might even never happen. But if Monk does sunder the first weapon (something he might easily do), Pally just Quick Draws the next weapon and full attacks Monk dead.

And the feat isn't Core. It's from Oriental Adventures or something, I recall.


So, I asked him about UMD and he said "Nah, your a spellcaster, so no umd gives you a huge advantage over me" So im going with it.

Also, i will surely post the results up here.

Did you point out the fact that with UMD in game, class features don't matter at all and it's just a competition to see who UMDs the level 9 Wizard-spells the best? 'cause UMD really trivializes everything. Might as well whip out Shapechange and Gate and Time Stop, then.

[Lhurgyof]

Not really a major issue given while he's busy attacking objects, the Pally can just kill him (Quick Draw one of your dozen +1 backup weapon, kill). It's not like fights like this tend to last many rounds either way, and if the Pally gets the first attack (seems likely given Pegasus's speed and Pally's intent of mounted charging; Monk has no good way of approaching and attacking efficiently in Core so Monk might frankly prefer that), this might even never happen. But if Monk does sunder the first weapon (something he might easily do), Pally just Quick Draws the next weapon and full attacks Monk dead.

And the feat isn't Core. It's from Oriental Adventures or something, I recall.

Poop. Or perhaps tripping or grappling.

I really wanna help this monk guy out.

[Eldariel]

Poop. Or perhaps tripping or grappling.

I really wanna help this monk guy out.

Pally is like to have greater reach, at least identical Trip-check and Freedom of Movement + better Grapple-check (full BAB vs. medium BAB, likely higher Strength unless Monk neglects his AC). I don't see any of those combat options helping the Monk out a great deal; he'll obviously want to Trip if he gets to range but all that amounts to is +4 To Hit and AC even if he does hit and wins the opposed check.

He kinda has to go for it but I doubt it's nearly enough. And this requires him to get the first attack; Pally has mount with movement speed of 120' (150' with Boots of Speed) and natural flight giving him far superior initiation capability.

[SamBurke]

Dude, without optimization, the monk would get OWNED anyway. No BAB? No Magic? (I remind you that Pallys can give bonuses to a bonded weapon, which might be a good thought). No healing built-in?

Thought: Get Meteor Hammers, TWF, and your BAB. At full level, you'll be pounding ought 8 attacks. Don't forget Keen, which should leave you at at least a 1 in 5 chance of crit. If you put Weapon Specialization first, that's now a 3 out of 10 chance (6 out of 14, 15-20 crit range, x2) Then, flaming burst. (You'll be getting loads of crits, at least, that's the idea. You'll churn out an extra d10, though it might not be worth considering).



Monk is owned.

[Deimess]

Are you allowed to have any sort of buff on you before hand? I know you will be able to cast death ward, but if you're not allowed any prep and the monk wins initiative, he can quivering palm you (still unlikely that you will fail the save though). Plus, wings of flying/winged boots aren't too expensive, so don't think flight is out of the realm of possibility (again, shouldn't be much of a problem for you).

EDIT: Plus, paladin can't get weapon specialization

[Flickerdart]

Dude, without optimization, the monk would get OWNED anyway. No BAB? No Magic? (I remind you that Pallys can give bonuses to a bonded weapon, which might be a good thought). No healing built-in?

Thought: Get Meteor Hammers, TWF, and your BAB. At full level, you'll be pounding ought 8 attacks. Don't forget Keen, which should leave you at at least a 1 in 5 chance of crit. If you put Weapon Specialization first, that's now a 3 out of 10 chance (6 out of 14, 15-20 crit range, x2) Then, flaming burst. (You'll be getting loads of crits, at least, that's the idea. You'll churn out an extra d10, though it might not be worth considering).



Monk is owned.
TWF is awful, especially for a Paladin since he has no source of bonus damage - the basic Lance charger would deal waaaaaay more damage and has a vastly higher chance of actually hitting. Not to mention that Meteor Hammer isn't Core.

[Eldariel]

TWF is awful, especially for a Paladin since he has no source of bonus damage - the basic Lance charger would deal waaaaaay more damage and has a vastly higher chance of actually hitting. Not to mention that Meteor Hammer isn't Core.

Not to mention, our Pally, while with an impressive array, would still be hardpressed to field 19 Dex in lieu of having Str, Con, Cha & Wis to do his thing.

[Godskook]

Remember Vicious is a core enhancement that adds +2d6 damage, at the cost of 1d6 backlash.

[Eldariel]

Off the top of my head you can pick up a +1 Frost Shock Flaming Vicious Wounding Spell-Storing weapon to make decent use of +8 worth of enhancements (he prolly won't have an array of elemental resistances unless he likes wasting money; you of course have your Resist Energy).

[Gwendol]

My guess is the monk will be planning on grappling: denies the paladin the use of weapons, mount, etc. If I was playing the monk I'd go for half-orc, increase in size, ranged debuff, then go invisible and try to initiate grapple.

So, armor spikes is probably a good idea... :smallwink:

[TroubleBrewing]

Off the top of my head you can pick up a +1 Frost Shock Flaming Vicious Wounding Spell-Storing weapon to make decent use of +8 worth of enhancements (he prolly won't have an array of elemental resistances unless he likes wasting money; you of course have your Resist Energy).

If you think the monk will be going for grappling, invest all of this nonsense into a dagger.

You can use light weapons in a grapple! Proceed to murder his face.

[Gwendol]

Yup, definitely keep a dagger or shortsword handy.

[Eldariel]

Eh. Pally will have better Grapple-check than the Monk (Improved Grapple = +4, Full BAB = +5 and they'll have at least the same Strength since you're maxing it out - Pally +1 at least). Also, you'll want Ring of Freedom of Movement anyways. I don't see why the heck you'd get an enhanced Dagger TBH.

[super dark33]

keep in mind that his quivering palm is 20+wis mod fort save, you dont want to fail that roll, altrough the monk is very underpowerd, bad rolls can still kill you.

[Gwendol]

Not if the paladin is human and the monk is half-orc. And englarged. He is certain to be large for the grappling, tripping, disarming bonuses.

[Eldariel]

Not if the paladin is human and the monk is half-orc. And englarged. He is certain to be large for the grappling, tripping, disarming bonuses.

Pally can (and should) be Enlarged just the same. +1 Strength modifier isn't enough to make the difference, to be honest. Pally still matches the Monk's Grapple-check for instance, and that's with him spending 0 resources. Of course, Freedom of Movement makes all this moot.

As for Quivering Palm, another basic defense on these levels (independent of any classes or builds) is Greater Fortifications Armor which makes you immune to crits and incidentally both, Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yup, definitely keep a dagger or shortsword handy.
Already covered.

Given you probably make all Fort-saves on 2 (massive Con + Cha both to the save, good progression and probably Cloak of Res +5), you only need to avoid natural 1s; for that the Luck Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#luckBlade) (without Wishes) alongside Death Ward is the perfect tool and you absolutely should have at least one. It's 22k, so rather affordable with level 20 WBL.

[Yeturs]

- Animated Shield and all that; this should be obvious. Sufficient to say, your AC should at the very least be in the mid 40s (10 + 3 Dex + 8 Mithral Fullplate + 5 Enhancement + 4 Mithral Tower Shield + 5 Enhancement + 5 Deflection + 5 Natural Armor + 1 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone + 1 Haste + 1 Dodge = 48

Could you break down these bonuses for me? Im not seeing where most of them come from, like natural and deflection?


(edit)

This is my equipment so far. Missing anything major? I have 2300 gold left so far.

Manuel of +5 strength

Manuel of +4 Constitution

+6 belt of strength

Hand of glory

Ring of protection +5 (Deflection)

Ioun stone, dusty rose (+1 competence to ac)

Ioun stone, pale green (+1 to attacks, saves, skill checks, and ability checks)

Cloak of charisma +6

ring of blinking

Periapt of Wisdom +2

boots of speed

lesser rod of quicken

glove of storing

scroll of GMW

Lance (+1 lawful outsider bane fiery frost shocking vicious lance) (+6 total)

+5 mithril full plate of heavy fortification

+5 mithril animated tower shield

luck blade (no wishes left)

[super dark33]

equipment looks nice, you still need that exotic military saddle fpr ypur pegasus.

[Gwendol]

Pally can (and should) be Enlarged just the same. +1 Strength modifier isn't enough to make the difference, to be honest. Pally still matches the Monk's Grapple-check for instance, and that's with him spending 0 resources. Of course, Freedom of Movement makes all this moot.

As for Quivering Palm, another basic defense on these levels (independent of any classes or builds) is Greater Fortifications Armor which makes you immune to crits and incidentally both, Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm.

I wouldn't necessarily get Large for this fight (playing paladin) as it messes up mounted combat. The lance gives reach anyway, and the mobility and charging options from being mounted is superior to getting large. Freedom of movement or just an anklet of translocation would be a better defence.

[Eldariel]

Could you break down these bonuses for me? Im not seeing where most of them come from, like natural and deflection

Base: 10
16 Dex: +3 Dex
+5 Mithral Fullplate: +8 Armor + 5 Enhancement
+4 Animated Mithral Tower Shield: +4 Shield + 5 Enhancement (though Pallies don't start with TS Proficiency so go Heavy Shield instead)
Ring of Protection +5; +5 Deflection
Amulet of Natural Armor +5: +5 Natural Armor
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone: +1 Insight
Boots of Speed: +1 Haste
Dodge-feat: +1 Dodge


I'd frankly cut out the +4 Con Tome; it's prolly too expensive. Get some mobility in there or some such. You can also cut the highest top bonuses from many items out.

[Flickerdart]

Assuming STR of 36 (a +13 bonus), +15 BAB and say Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon focus, he's only got +30 to-hit - he hits you only 15% of the time. It isn't likely he'll go this far, though, so you can afford to slack some of that stuff if you need money for something else.

If he focused on Wisdom, his AC will be only 39 (because he can't use a shield) at the most. 20 BAB, a +5 weapon, a conservative +10 to STR, and you're hitting him on a 2 when charging without even trying. He might pump Dex, but you have some margin of error here.

What are your feats?

[The Cat Goddess]

If your opponent is Enlarged or otherwise enchanted, toss a Dispel Magic at him. Most people don't remember to purchase increased caster level for permenancied spells. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

Assuming STR of 36 (a +13 bonus), +15 BAB and say Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon focus, he's only got +30 to-hit - he hits you only 15% of the time. It isn't likely he'll go this far, though, so you can afford to slack some of that stuff if you need money for something else.

Monk doesn't qualify for GWF. He will, probably, have Haste, Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, tripping, Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (or a purchased casting of GMF; nothing to do about that other than Disjoining him here) & some scrolls (since he's planning on UMDing) at his disposal tho, bringing the total to probably +36 or so. This is if he goes Str-focus; if he goes Dex-focus instead he can forget about Tripping but he gets AC of 10+13 Dex+8 Wis+8 Armor+5 Natural Armor + 5 Deflection + 1 Insight + 1 Speed = 51. Note that if he went Large (he needs to for any reasonable damage; he can at least get 6d6 per fist this way), this would drop by 2. Either way, I'd be prepared for him dumping his resources into AC and hitting that AC 51 (or 49) relatively reliably. Though if he goes Str-focus, I can't see him getting over 46/44. And this is with extreme investment (three Tomes, at +5, +4, +4 respectively) which likely cripples him otherwise.

[Deimess]

This is my equipment so far. Missing anything major? I have 2300 gold left so far.

Manuel of +5 strength

Manuel of +4 Constitution

+6 belt of strength

Hand of glory

Ring of protection +5 (Deflection)

Ioun stone, dusty rose (+1 competence to ac)

Ioun stone, pale green (+1 to attacks, saves, skill checks, and ability checks)

Cloak of charisma +6

ring of blinking

Periapt of Wisdom +2

boots of speed

lesser rod of quicken

glove of storing

scroll of GMW

Lance (+1 lawful outsider bane fiery frost shocking vicious lance) (+6 total)

+5 mithril full plate of heavy fortification

+5 mithril animated tower shield

luck blade (no wishes left)


I don't think you can have a hand of glory and a periapt of wisdom on, and I rue the day that I ever handed out a ring of blinking to a character, good choice.

[Eldariel]

I don't think you can have a hand of glory and a periapt of wisdom on, and I rue the day that I ever handed out a ring of blinking to a character, good choice.

You can add the Hand of Glory-property to Periapt for 1.5 times the price (that is, 12000gp; extremely affordable). Don't forget to equip your mount though, again. It should at the very least have enough AC to not be insta-gibbed. Just simple Barding, Animated Shield (make 'em +affordable) and perhaps some Con-boosters would do enough to make it an unappealing target; hard to hit and if the enemy DOES kill it you still kill him.

If you don't go in pre-enlarged, at least pack Potions/Scrolls of Enlarge Person. Those cost practically nothing and you can chug one down/cast one if your mount dies and go for the oldfashioned slugging (tip: you're favored in that).

[Gwendol]

He! Just realized that with the stupid capstone of the monk he can't get enlarged (he can be permanently englarged at an earlier level) but Enlarge Person doesn't work on Outsiders.

Anyway; for the gold you have left I'd add anklets of translocation to whatever boots you have: you can never go wrong with swift action teleport.

Teleport up from prone
Teleport out of grapple (in the unlikely event you have to)
Teleport away for setting up a charge
etc

[Killer Angel]

Anyway; for the gold you have left I'd add anklets of translocation to whatever boots you have: you can never go wrong with swift action teleport.


Indeed. Only, I don't think Anklets are in Core. :smallamused:


We are in all core

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Indeed. Only, I don't think Anklets are in Core. :smallamused:

just switch the word boot for anklet, problem solved.

your mounted will get killed in the first round, if i was the monk i will quivering plam that, and activite it when the mount is flying.

[Killer Angel]

just switch the word boot for anklet, problem solved.


Different cost, no swift action and no more boots of speed (NB: I don't like boots of speed, but it's the OP's choice).
But yeah, a 20th lev need some teleporting.


your mounted will get killed in the first round, if i was the monk i will quivering plam that, and activite it when the mount is flying.

If I were the paladin, in a single combat, I probably would fight mounted AND with boots of flying already activated.

[super dark33]

unless the monk player is a monk expert, its only the quivering palm we need to worry about.

Will you still use the Grappaladin people suggested here?

[Killer Angel]

unless the monk player is a monk expert, its only the quivering palm we need to worry about.


Now that I'm thinking on it, we're helping the already stronger side, 'cause we like to mock the monk and see it suffer.
Isn't this unfair? :smalltongue:

[crazyhedgewizrd]

dont forget that the monk will win initiative more often than the paladin, so a charge base paladin loses the init, he will never get to charge at anytime in the fight.

[candycorn]

18 Str, 16 Cha.
Level boosts in Str, +5 tome for Cha and Str.
28 Str, 21 Cha
+6 Item for Cha
28 Str, 27 Cha (+8 to Cha checks)

11 Ranks UMD
+8 Cha
+3 Skill focus
+2 Magical Aptitude
+2 MW Tool
+3 Circlet of Persuasion

Total: +29 UMD.

Get 2 Scrolls of Antimagic Field, and get improved grapple.

Scroll is Level 6, CL 11, so the DC to activate is 31. You'll get it on a 2+, and make him regret all that UMD.

[Telonius]

If I were the Monk ...

Monk equipment: 1 hireling (preferably young-ish and innocent-looking).
Improved Initiative, high Dex.
First round: Ready action to slay hireling if the Paladin approaches. Free action, call out to the Paladin: "One step closer and he dies."

[tyckspoon]

dont forget that the monk will win initiative more often than the paladin, so a charge base paladin loses the init, he will never get to charge at anytime in the fight.

Only if the Monk uses his winning initiative to approach the Paladin, in which case the Monk still loses.. because he gets to make one attack, and the Paladin gets to make the first Full Attack in return. Which might be the last Full Attack. No, if the Monk wins initiative he's better off going defensive and burning consumables like his life depends on it, which it does- start with an Invisibility (if nothing else, it forces the Paladin to spend his turn getting See Invisible up to counter) and then gulp down a Displacement, Mirror Image, Good Hope, Divine Favor, and Rage before even thinking about approaching the Paladin (and spend out to get all of those at CL 20, because otherwise even the Paladin's crappy caster level is going to knock them out with a Dispel Magic.)

[Deimess]

If the monk wins initiative, his first action will probably be to go ethereal or activate some sort of magic item, not to approach

[Hiro Protagonest]

If the monk wins initiative, his first action will probably be to go ethereal or activate some sort of magic item, not to approach

But remember, this guy thinks a monk is as good as a paladin. He's probably not that good in the tactics department.

[The Cat Goddess]

As for your Mount... don't forget that a high Riding Roll can prevent damage to it.

Most people don't use mounted combat, so they forget the power of that feat.

[Sr.medusa]

Polymorph. The monk is an outsider, a scroll of quickened polymorph at CL 15 for a Planetar and a charge for full atack is temptating.

[Eldariel]

Polymorph. The monk is an outsider, a scroll of quickened polymorph at CL 15 for a Planetar and a charge for full atack is temptating.

You do realize they can just use Scroll of Shapechange and not give a rat's ass about childs' play like Polymorph, right?

[Urpriest]

You do realize they can just use Scroll of Shapechange and not give a rat's ass about childs' play like Polymorph, right?

Not quickened, though, for what it's worth.

[Eldariel]

Not quickened, though, for what it's worth.

I'm strangely ok with the idea of taking a Standard Action to win D&D forever, though.

[Grendus]

The downside of UMD being allowed is, as has been mentioned, both classes entire line of class features can be replaced with a 3825 gp scroll. At level 20, you can buy almost 200 of those. A lot is going to depend on how much WBL-fu he pulls, but in a straight fight of just class features, Paladin wins hands down. Charging the unarmored monk for (1d10+1.5xSTR+2xPA+Weapon Bonus)x3+bonus dice damage will turn him into a little smear on the wall in one round. Even if he survives the first hit, Ride-By Attack from a pegasus mount will let you hit him repeatedly with your 10 foot reach lance without even exposing yourself to a hit (worst case he readies an action to throw something at you... tanglefoot bag on your mount could be bad, I guess).

If the monk starts right in your face he could have a slight advantage going for the grapple or trip, but your higher armor, enchanted weapons, and spells (even lackluster spells) still give you a huge edge. Paladin is just a better built class than the monk, plain and simple.

[Snails]

As even a 20th level Commoner might pull off a lucky instant win with UMD and a scroll, I do not think such a success would count in the Monk's favor as a spirited defense of the career path. It is an interesting tactic play, but would rate as closer to the Paladin's realm, as it is a Cha skill.

The Monk's best prayer is probably to grapple, as that will significantly reduce the Paladin's offensive effectiveness with no real negative on the Monk. Unfortunately the Paladin's edge in BAB means that grappling is not an easy win, unless the Monk seriously outweighs the Paladin in the Str department.

However, I am afraid that even if grappling goes well, a simple warhorse Paladin Mount is quite capable of beating the Monk unconscious while the bipeds grapple away.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

But remember, this guy thinks a monk is as good as a paladin. He's probably not that good in the tactics department.

never really mention tactics at all, and has anyone really played a 20th monk. and all i really said was that a charge based paladin will not get it full weapon damage.

[tyckspoon]

never really mention tactics at all, and has anyone really played a 20th monk. and all i really said was that a charge based paladin will not get it full weapon damage.

He won't get his multipliers that would likely let him one-shot the Monk. Nothing stopping him from doing full normal damage.. and if the Monk is approaching to inside charging range and then making a single shot, and the Paladin is striking back with 5 attacks, well, that's still a pretty bad time to be that Monk. The only way you want to do that is if you can reliably make that one shot disable the Paladin.

[Callista]

If he just goes LG monk and you lose your paladin status from attacking him that'd be hilarious!:smallbiggrin:Wouldn't work--your character and the monk have agreed to a fair fight to see who's strongest. LG people duel each other all the time.

Anyway, yeah, I'm betting on the paladin in this one too. The limited spellcasting, plus the high saves, plus the mount and the nice bonuses to charging, would allow him to win.

There are some ways to specifically fight a Good-aligned character, but many of them would require building an Evil-aligned monk, and then the paladin could just get out the Smite and level the playing field.

The monk's only real advantage is speed, and if the paladin's mounted, even that gets canceled out.

At higher levels, it's pretty much down to luck and who thought to bring the right magic item, as class abilities become more and more irrelevant.

[super dark33]

when will you fight that monk? cant wiat to see the results.
my bet:humiliating defeat for the monk.

[mootoall]

If you're allowed the full SRD instead of just core, go Paladin of Slaughter so you can Smite? Denying you your main class feature doesn't make for a very fair measure of the class, after all.

[Killer Angel]

The downside of UMD being allowed is, as has been mentioned, both classes entire line of class features can be replaced with a 3825 gp scroll.

...and the match is no more Paladin Vs Monk, but is between two weak magic users that happen to have a bunch of levels in unrelated classes.

[Greenish]

...and the match is no more Paladin Vs Monk, but is between two weak magic users that happen to have a bunch of levels in unrelated classes.Wasn't that his point?

[Coidzor]

The downside of UMD being allowed is, as has been mentioned, both classes entire line of class features can be replaced with a 3825 gp scroll.

Which scroll?

[Eldariel]

Which scroll?

Shapechange.

[Talya]

Did you point out the fact that with UMD in game, class features don't matter at all and it's just a competition to see who UMDs the level 9 Wizard-spells the best? 'cause UMD really trivializes everything. Might as well whip out Shapechange and Gate and Time Stop, then.

Also, monk is going to dump charisma, Paladin's going to prioritize it rather high. Paladin comes out on top for UMD abuse.

What are you putting your skill points into? Ride, UMD, and if you're human, you can max one more...

Be careful if he grapples. You should be able to win grapple checks with your strength and his low BAB, but if a monk actually succeeds on a grapple, he's going to hurt you.

[Eldariel]

Also, monk is going to dump charisma, Paladin's going to prioritize it rather high. Paladin comes out on top for UMD abuse.

That's the problem. If they play the UMD-allowed version, it's gonna involve both pumping their Cha bar all else since UMDd Shapechange replicates all your physicals and other UMDd spells just make them largely irrelevant. That's how little the classes matter; they won't even bother with the stats their class uses since Cha becomes the One Stat To Rule Them All.

[Killer Angel]

Wasn't that his point?

Yes, it was, and I was supporting that PoV.
Next time, I'll remember to inser an "indeed" at the beginning of my post. :smallwink:

[Deimess]

I keep checking back to see if the results are here haha

and, IMHO, UMD should never be allowed in duels like this

[super dark33]

you ahould invest some points in intimadate, so you can wathc him pee his pants as you charge.

[Telonius]

I keep checking back to see if the results are here haha

and, IMHO, UMD should never be allowed in duels like this

Agree with both. How did this turn out, OP?

[El Dorado]

It would be funny if, in the middle of the duel, your DM sprung an ambush on the two of you. Turn it from a duel to buddy cop movie. :smallwink:

Or, instead of a duel, create a competition. Run a tomb raider scenario where you have to find an artifact. Or maybe some variant on Capture the Flag. Something that actually motivates use of different skills and class features.

[Epee Assassin]

When is the "duel" going to happen?

[super dark33]

maybe there wont be a fight, and he just wanted help on an oburcharging paladin..

[Gwendol]

Kind of lame to optimize vs Monk

[Yeturs]

Hey, sorry guys. I thought i posted this, but it must have glitched out. The duel never happened, he read my spell list and conceded XD Hate to spoil the day, and sorry if this counts as "Thread Necromancy". Just wanted to let you all know.

Have a good day!