Combining Dragonfire Inspiration and Master Thrower [Archive]

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Talionis

2011-06-15, 09:47 PM

I'm banging my head trying to get as many hits and do good things with those hits as possible with things like palm throw.

What am I missing? Can I fit it all in? Other things I should try to fit in?

Feats
Song of White Raven
Dragonfire Inspiration
Words of Creation
Boomerang Daze
Draconic Senses
Lightning Maces -- Extra Attacks are good
Extend Range

Maneuvers
Firey Brand -- Turns all your damage into Fire to avoid Damage Reduction and increase range

Martial Spirit -- Heal two HP per attack that hits (you are getting lots of hits)
Blood In The Water -- Each Critical Hit adds to your chance to hit with this out

1 Crusader
2 Bard
3 Ranger
4 Swordsage
5 Warblade
6 Warblade
7 Warblade
8 Warblade
9 Warblade
10 Warblade
11 Warblade
12 Warblade
13 Warblade
14 Warblade
15 Master Thrower
16 Master Thrower
17 Master Thrower
18 Bloodstorm Blade
19 Bloodstorm Blade
20 Bloodstorm Blade

gorfnab

2011-06-15, 11:40 PM

Try to get the 4th level of Bloodstorm Blade. Lighting Ricochet is basically free returning on any weapon you throw. 5 levels of Master Thrower is nice since it turns all your ranged attacks into touch attacks.

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-06-16, 12:15 AM

There's a feat from a Dragon magazine that acts as Practiced Spellcaster for Bardic Music. I want to say its Chaotic Musician, but I am not sure.

Talionis

2011-06-18, 04:58 PM

This is what I came up with an Elf (Warblade1, Bard1, Warblade2, Crusader1, Bloodstorm Blade 4, Swordsage 1, Master Thrower 5, Eternal Blade 5)

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Throw Anything, Song of White Raven, Bonus Fighter Feat -- Boomerang Daze, Dragon Fire Inspiration, Weapon Focus (Tiger Claw), Quick Draw, Martial Study -- Iron Heart Surge, Improved Critical , Words of Creation, Martial Study -- Inferno Blade.

Warblade Readied Manuevers (3+1): Sudden Leap, Disarming Strike, Steely Strike, Steel Wind

Swordsage Readied Manuevers (4): Mind Over Body, Action Before Thought, Moment of Perfect Mind, Cloak of Deception -- Not readied is Shadow Jaunt which can be used when you need it outside of combat

Crusader Readied Manuevers (5, 2 Granted): Iron Heart Surge, Inferno Blade, Raging Mongoose, Dancing Mongoose, Finishing Move

Stances: Bolstering Voice, Martial Spirit, Blood In The Water, Stance of Alacrity

Items: Badge of Valor +1 Inspire Courage and Vest of Legends +5 Bard Levels to Inspire Courage

Explanations:
Bolstering Voice will allow you to use your Dragonfire Inspiration with Song of White Raven. If you use Words of Creation, you can fairly quickly heal the damage with Martial Spirit Stance. Switching to Blood in the water allows you to increase your accuracy and damage.

At level 20, you can be in Stance of Alacrity and use two counters in one round allowing you to burn through your offensive Crusader Manuevers really quickly. There are a number of abilities that burn immediate actions.

As far as Criticals go, you can throw Kukri's which have a huge crit range to begin with. Improved Critical doubles your threat range. Blood in the Water helps improve your accuracy of course, as if you need it with Weak Spot. You increase crit with Dead Eye Shot which increases your crit enhancement by +1. Is Trip Shot a better?

I'm not sure if I've optimized by attacks by using Palm Throw. I could use some help with how many attacks I can get.

Big Fau

2011-06-18, 05:06 PM

Talionis, your build only has 1 Bardic Music use/day...

Talionis

2011-06-18, 06:04 PM

Talionis, your build only has 1 Bardic Music use/day...

That's not good... I thought that the levels stacked and I got for each Bard/Crusader/Warblade level. 5 would be enough per day for most adventures... Once is too little. Hmmmm...

Any suggestions?

Should I drop that Dragonfire Inspiration? That would give me three feats and a level.

Big Fau

2011-06-18, 06:44 PM

That's not good... I thought that the levels stacked and I got for each Bard/Crusader/Warblade level. 5 would be enough per day for most adventures... Once is too little. Hmmmm...

Any suggestions?

Should I drop that Dragonfire Inspiration? That would give me three feats and a level.

From the looks of it, you can probably drop Martial Study (IHS), as you just need to stagger your Warblade levels and maneuver acquisition to get it at the right time. Take Extra Music.

Talionis

2011-06-18, 08:23 PM

Thank you very much Big Fau -- Awesome Suggestion!

I ended up dropping Boomerang Daze. I'm not sure I qualified for it with Warblade Weapon Aptitude anyway. I also noticed that I needed a Iron Heart Stance to qualify for Bloodstorm Blade, so I dropped Martial Spirit, getting Bolstering Voice with Crusader and picked up Punishing Stance with Warblade at 1. Heck that adds damage anyway, so with more attacks it will do even more damage. That lets me take Iron Heart Surge as early as possible. It also lets me keep my Crusader Manuevers all Boosts except for Finishing Move, it also allows me to keep more of my Crusader manuevers Iron Heart Manuevers to give to my Bloodstorm Blade mechanics.

This is where I'm at: an Elf (Warblade1, Bard1, Warblade2, Crusader1, Bloodstorm Blade 4, Swordsage 1, Master Thrower 5, Eternal Blade 5)

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Throw Anything, Extra Music, Bonus Fighter Feat -- Martial Study Iron Heart Surge, Dragon Fire Inspiration, Weapon Focus (Tiger Claw), Quick Draw, Song of White Raven, Improved Critical , Words of Creation, Martial Study -- Inferno Blade.

Warblade Readied Manuevers (3+1): Sudden Leap, Disarming Strike, Steely Strike, Steel Wind

Swordsage Readied Manuevers (4): Mind Over Body, Action Before Thought, Moment of Perfect Mind, Cloak of Deception -- Not readied is Shadow Jaunt which can be used when you need it outside of combat

Crusader Readied Manuevers (5, 2 Granted): Iron Heart Surge, Inferno Blade, Raging Mongoose, Dancing Mongoose, Finishing Move -- Not Readied is Mountain Hammer for busting down doors

Stances: Bolstering Voice, Punishing Stance, Blood In The Water, Stance of Alacrity

Items: Badge of Valor +1 Inspire Courage and Vest of Legends +5 Bard Levels to Inspire Courage

Explanations:
Bolstering Voice will allow you to use your Dragonfire Inspiration with Song of White Raven. If you use Words of Creation, you can fairly quickly heal the damage with Martial Spirit Stance/Aura of Triumph or Iron Heart Endurance with Eternal Training. Switching to Blood in the water allows you to increase your accuracy and damage.

At level 20, you can be in Stance of Alacrity and use two counters in one round allowing you to burn through your offensive Crusader Manuevers really quickly. There are a number of abilities that burn immediate actions.

As far as Criticals go, you can throw Kukri's which have a huge crit range to begin with. Improved Critical doubles your threat range. Blood in the Water helps improve your accuracy of course, as if you need it with Weak Spot. You increase crit with Dead Eye Shot which increases your crit enhancement by +1. Is Trip Shot a better?

I'm not sure if I've optimized by attacks by using Palm Throw. I could use some help with how many attacks I can get.

Big Fau

2011-06-18, 09:03 PM

Talionis

2011-06-19, 12:27 AM

Crusaders cannot learn maneuvers from any disciplines except Devoted Spirit, White Raven, and Stone Dragon. Swordsages likewise get access to Stone Dragon, Setting Sun, Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw, and Desert Wind. Iron Heart maneuvers can only be learned by Warblades.

You cannot mix and match readied maneuvers across classes without using Martial Study for each maneuver you wish to ready (and you can only take that 3 times).

If you'd like, I can rewrite the build for you.

I am pretty sure that Prestige Classes that grant extra manuevers with multiple Martial Adepts base classes have to pick which recovery system to put the new manuever into. Eternal Blade can pick from Diamond Mind, Devoted Spirit, White Raven, and Iron Heart. But I don't have to put Iron Heart manuevers under my Warblade recovery system. PG 96 of ToB describes that pretty well and I thought I had that right?

Talionis

2011-06-19, 12:35 AM

This is my progression

1 Warblade - Punishing Stance, Steel Wind, Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike
3 Warblade - Steely Strike
4 Warblade - Disarming Strike
5 Crusader - Bolstering Voice, Mountain Hammer, Shield Block, Foe Hammer, Crusader Strike, Vanguard Strike
8 Bloodstorm Blade Fighter Feat -- Martial Study Iron Heart Surge
10 Swordsage - Blood In The Water, Mind Over Body, Action Before Thought, Moment of Perfect Mind, White Raven Tactics, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt
16 Eternal Blade - Dancing Mongoose
18 Eternal Blade - Finishing Move, Martial Study - Inferno Blade
20 Eternal Blade - Stance of Alacrity, Raging Mongoose

I just all of my Martial Study Feats and Eternal Blade Manuevers to be recovered with my Crusader recovery mechanic.

I think I just labeled wrong.

Big Fau

2011-06-19, 05:08 PM

Talionis

2011-06-19, 06:49 PM

Thanks for all your help, better you catch before my DM does. WRT I really don't care about, but both Mongoose are a big time part of the build...

I'm thinking the thing to do is going to be to lose Crusader and Eternal Blade and go with a straight Warblade. With that I lose Guided Strike (Eternal Blade 2) which allows you to overcome DR which would be huge. I also lose the Crusader recovery mechanic. Crusader recovery mechanic is not as necesary as some because even a normal attack can be a lot of attacks if I pick up Adaptive Style.

Also lining up the final level where I can pick up 8th level manuevers where I can get both a manuever and stance to pick up Stance of Alacrity and Dancing Mongoose.

Right now working on it.

Talionis

2011-06-19, 09:45 PM

This is a little odd on the leveling, but I was able to keep 3rd Level of Eternal Blade, which gives me the Guided Strike and twice per day Eternal Training. I was able to work in Adaptive Style.

I did however lose the Crusader recovery mechanic. Its actually probably better without Crusader. The second level of Swordsage gives me both access to 8th Level, Tiger Claw manuever and a Diamond Mind Stance at 20. Also I was able to grab Iron Heart Endurance which is very useful to heal up damage from Words of Creation.

I also grabbed a 7th level Eternal Blade Manuever, that I have no idea what to put in the spot.

Warblade-- Punishing Stance, Steel Wind, Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike
Bard
Warblade -- Steely Strike
Warblade -- Disarming Strike
Warblade -- Extra Readied Warblade
Bloodstorm Blade
Bloodstorm Blade
Warblade -- Iron Heart Surge
Bloodstorm Blade
Swordsage -- Blood In The Water, Mind Over Body, Action Before Thought, Moment of Perfect Mind, White Raven Tactics, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt
Bloodstorm Blade
Master Thrower
Master Thrower
Master Thrower
Master Thrower -- Martial Study -- Dancing Mongoose
Master Thrower
Eternal Blade -- Iron Heart Endurance
Eternal Blade -- Martial Study Inferno Blade, Finishing Move
Eternal Blade -- Open Manuever
Swordsage -- Stance of Alacrity, Raging Mongoose

Big Fau

2011-06-19, 09:54 PM

The strange thing is I think the Crusader's recovery coupled with Iron Heart maneuvers would suit the BSB mechanics wonderfully (since you don't spend an action to recover your maneuvers that way).

Talionis

2011-06-20, 07:35 AM

Big Fau,

I completely agree that was why I was trying so hard to get that to work. Having the Crusader Recoveries being all boosts and having Stance of Alacrity, you can burn through them really quickly and reset them. Strikes are harder to burn through. It breaks the Crusader recovery a little when and if you can do it.

That being said, with Adaptive Style, you only need one round where you don't use a strike. You can still attack and with Palm Throw, you still get a ton of attacks without using a strike. Heck you don't really use strikes in this build anyway. Arguably, you can attack with many of the BSB replacement strikes and not fall under the technical using a strike. So I think you can recover through Warblade/Adaptive Style very easiliy.

I also looked at it again and when I can't use a Prestige Class to pick up the last manuever and stance at 20, I'm a half initiator level off to pick up level 8 manuevers. It is very hard to fix since stupid Bloodstorm Blade only progresses at 1/2 an initiator level even though its mechanics eat manuevers. Swordsage is providing me with Weapon Focus and a ton of manuevers that are tremendous utility. But potentially dropping this for Warblade does fix it.

Interestingly, at 20, I think you could use Eternal Training to get a 8th level manuever/stance a couple times a day, but you can't get both Raging Mongoose and Stance of Alacrity.

How bad do I need Lightning Richochet? Is it just saving me having to have like 16 kukri's to throw? If I could save a level or two there I could do scary scary things.

Big Fau

2011-06-20, 10:54 AM

How bad do I need Lightning Richochet? Is it just saving me having to have like 16 kukri's to throw? If I could save a level or two there I could do scary scary things.

There's an augment crystal that grants Returning, to obviate the need for more than 4 levels of BSB. This way you can cut your kukri count in half since you'd get them back at the start of your turn.

Have you considered using a Harpoon (Stormwrack) for more damage? Combining it with Strikes is downright lethal, especially considering it works with Boomerang Ricochet with the Aptitude quality.

Talionis

2011-06-21, 08:57 AM

Here is the new build, I tried to fit a level of Ranger in but it hurt the build too much. Hopefully, high BAB and touch attacks are enough to help the off hand hit. If not maybe I need to work more on it. I'm a half initiator level from being able to get 9th level manuevers. The only real way to get to it is to either drop Bard or Bloodstorm Blade.

One level of Bard is adding 8d6 damage to each attack if I use the Badge of Valor and have on the vest and use Words of Creation. One level of Bloodstorm Blade lets me burn an Iron Heart Manuever and have all my attacks be Returning; I have a lot of attacks. It also gives me the Feat Throw Anything which lets me throw the Kukri's (I have to dig Stormwrack out. Harpoon's may work, but I'm liking the boomerang/knife like Kukri right now, maybe I'll carry both since Weapon Aptitude lets me adapt). I guess you really could drop Bloodstorm Blade for a level of Swordsage and get a manuever and stance. But then all your many many weapons would have to be returning weapons. Which is doable.

It is Warblade that has the best recovery mechanic for this build. It can recover mechanics simply by using a Swift Action and not executing a strike. This build almost never uses strikes anyway so you aren't loosing much to recover your Warblade Manuevers. Of course to recover the Swordsage Manuever it takes a bit more, but hopefully they are more situational and won't be burned as quickly in a fight.

Warblade, Bard, Warblade 3, Bloodstorm Blade, Swordsage, Master Thrower, Warblade, Master Thrower 4, Warblade 3, Eternal Blade 3, Warblade.

Feat Progression: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Extra Music (+4 Times Per Day), Throw Anything, Weapon Focus (Tiger Claw), Dragonfire Inspiration, Quick Draw, Far Shot (Doubles Range to 20ft), Song of White Raven, Words of Creation, Martial Study -- Iron Heart Endurance, Martial Study -- Inferno Blade, Martial Stance -- Stance of Alacrity

Ability Progression: Battle Clarity (reflex saves), Weapon Aptitude, Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor (Crit Confirmation), Returning Attacks, Throw Anything, Weapon Aptitude, Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus-- Tiger Claw), Quick Draw, Thrown Weapon Trick (Palm Throw), Bonus Feat, Evasion, Thown Weapon Trick (Dead Eye Shot), Snatch Arrows, Critical Throw, Thrown Weapon Trick (Weak Spot-- Touch Attacks), Improved Uncanny Dodge, Battle Cunning (Damage to Flanked), Blade Guide, Eternal Training (1/day), Guided Strike (Swift Action allows overcome DR), Armored Uncanny Dodge, Eternal Training (2/day)
Bonus Feat

Maneuver Progression:
Warblade 1: Punishing Stance, Steel Wind, Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike
Warblade 3: Steelly Strike
Warblade 4: Disarming Strike
Warblade 5: Bolstering Voice, Extra Readied
Swordsage 7:Blood In The Water, Action Before Thought, Moment of Perfect Mind, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Mountain Hammer, Flashing Sun
Warblade 9: Iron Heart Surge
Warblade 15:Dancing Mongoose, Iron Heart Endurance
Eternal Blade 17: Finishing Move
Eternal Blade 18: Inferno Blade
Eternal Blade 19: Diamond Defense, Extra Readied
Warblade 20: Stance of Alacrity, Raging Mongoose

Warblade Readied Manuevers: Iron Heart Surge, Iron Heart Endurance, Dancing Mongoose, Finishing Move, Raging Mongoose

Swordsage Readied Manuevers: Action Before Thought, Moment of Perfect Mind, Diamond Defense, Inferno Blade

Big Fau

2011-06-21, 03:03 PM

Your build looks ok at a glance. BAB 17 means your attack rolls just need a few buffs from your allies, but you'll be providing the entire party with a nice buff yourself so they'll be very likely to pay you back.

Talionis

2011-06-21, 04:41 PM

Big Fau thank you for all your help. I think I have something clean to work towards and that will actually be fun to level too. If you think of anything else, I should try to squeeze in please let me know.

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-06-21, 06:43 PM

From the looks of it, you can probably drop Martial Study (IHS), as you just need to stagger your Warblade levels and maneuver acquisition to get it at the right time. Take Extra Music.

There's a feat from a Dragon magazine that acts as Practiced Spellcaster for Bardic Music. I want to say its Chaotic Musician, but I am not sure.

This is be being silly and shooping shat, but, I'd either both feats are the issue or neither.:smallbiggrin::smallwink:

Talionis

2011-06-24, 09:48 AM

This is be being silly and shooping shat, but, I'd either both feats are the issue or neither.:smallbiggrin::smallwink:

Chaos Music only increases Bardic Music level and the break points are 8, 14, and 20. With 9 levels of Warblade and 1 level of Bard, you are at ten. The Vest increases that by 5 getting you to the breakpoint. Song of White Raven adds more than Chaos Music. But in an equipmentless build, Chaos Music would get you to the next break point.

I do need a race that is dragontouched and an elf for the build... What do y'all suggest?