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tgva8889

2011-06-15, 10:11 PM

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/Planeswalkers.pnghttp://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/AkromaBanner.png
Yet another Magic thread by me, Shas'aia Toriia! 'Cause I'm sure you weren't sick of looking at me yet!
All art by Uncle Festy. Worship him for his god like art skills.
Also, he takes requests. Sometimes. Usually he bites your head off if he isn't in the 'art' mood.

It's the 10th official Magic: the Gathering thread on Giantitp forums!
This is the place for everything regarding the game - rules questions, your own card creations, decks, reports, rants about recent sets/cards/rules changes, the storyline, favorite cards/colors/sets/characters/pros/articles, the absolute glory/terrible creation that is Elder Dragon Highlander Commander, or any other awesome Magical exploits.
And definitely don't be shy if you're new to the game or think about starting. We would love to bring more players in, and help you get started!

If you want, you can post decks and have them placed here in a list similar to the one below! Shoot me a PM if you're interested and I don't have my Ivory Mask.
The Deck Gallery:

Shas'aia Toriia's RDW Flamekin
Creatures
4x Nova Chaser (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140239)
4x Incandescent Soulstoke (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139730)
4x Smokebraider (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139465)
4x Flamekin Harbinger (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139463)
4x Flamekin Bladewhirl (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140343)
4x Vengeful Firebrand (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153153)
2x Changeling Berserker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=145804)
2x Brighthearth Banneret (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152651)
2x Sootstoke Kindler (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153989)
1x Stigma Lasher (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153049)

Other Spells
4x Lash Out (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=145987)
4x Flame Javelin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189220)
2x Soul's Fire (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174951)

Land
17x Mountain (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190585)
2x Ghitu Encampment (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106564)

That deck focuses on getting the kill as fast as possible, and is an extremely simple deck to play - I gave it to my mom, and she managed to beat me with it, twice out of three games. The other one was multiplayer, and did manage to take down somebody else before I did the same to her.
It has a very good record, wins most games it plays and consistenly trounces my Faerie deck.

Start the game off by playing Flamekin Harbinger to tutor up either Nova Chaser or the Soulstoke, depending on what you need more. Then play Smokebraider for some cheap mana. Play Incandescent Soulstoke turn three, and up to 3 Nova Chasers through the Soulstoke's ability turn 4 for the win. :smallbiggrin:
If they somehow survive this, just champion Flamekin Harbinger, fling your Nova Chasers and Changeling Berserkers at the opponent. When they do, search up a new one and do it again! Vengeful Firebrand is great end game. He'll likely have haste from one of the many warriors in the deck, and his firebreathing effect quickly escalates from Smokebraider's ability.

Conspiring Ultimatums, a truly magical, non-budget deck by tgva88892 Maelstrom Archangel (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185136)
3 Wort, the Raidmother (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=147379)
4 Birds of Paradise (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129906)
4 Sprouting Thrinax (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174863)

1 Cruel Ultimatum (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175079)
1 Violent Ultimatum (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175135)
1 Conflux (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179437)
1 Spitting Image (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=154261)
1 Din of the Fireherd (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146733)
4 Naya Charm (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=137905)
4 Fertile Ground (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139502)
3 Garruk Wildspeaker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140205)
2 Lavalanche (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180612)
4 Maelstrom Pulse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180613)
1 Cloven Casting (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189653)
2 Rupture Spire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142301)

4 Vivid Crag (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=141882)
4 Vivid Grove (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=141879)
4 Reflecting Pool (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152158)
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
5 Forest

Gameplay:
When playing this deck, it's important to survive the early game. Once you get into the late game, any deck without an abundance of counterspells will suddenly be faced with an onslaught of powerful spells. Between the 5 game-winners, one being a repeatable spell, the 4 Naya Charms, and the 3 Primal Commands and 4 Cone of Flames to control the game a bit, this deck should have no problem pushing through a late-game backbreaker. Maelstrom Archangel is there to help you push through some spells; after all, it's not very likely you'll be able to play two Ultimatums in one turn, is it?

In terms of your early game, the key to surviving is to play Sprouting Thrinax, Naya Charm, and Cone of Flame as much as possible to slow down your foe. In addition, don't be afraid to take a bit of damage; you can afford to go down to 10 or even 5 before you're really in dire straits. The Primal Commands can gain you some important life early on, and it's not uncommon to be casting Maelstrom Archangel on turn 5 if it's in your opener, so the Angel can act as a last-ditch blocker if need be. Garruk's Beast tokens are also extremely helpful in surviving to your big guns, and Garruk himself provides you some acceleration that can get you there faster.

Naya Charm is truly your ace in the hole. Acting as Regrowth, Lash Out, and a fourth of Cryptic Command is truly something amazing. However, don't be afraid to spend Naya Charm early on. If you get Wort up and running, you can recycle your Naya Charms with your other cards extremely easily.

Remember, the objective with this deck is to conspire ridiculous spells for ridiculous fun. If you're about to lose, don't be afraid to Conspire Conflux and show off your deck in a glorious fashion. It's all about making big explosions, after all!

Mirrinus' "Norg'Creatures:
4 Cloud Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cloud%20Sprite)
4 Spellstutter Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Spellstutter%20Sprite)
4 Pestermite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Pestermite)
3 Thieving Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Thieving%20Sprite)
3 Latchkey Faerie (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Latchkey%20Faerie)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)

Instants:
4 Mana Leak (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak)
4 Agony Warp (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Agony%20Warp)
3 Rend Flesh (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Rend%20Flesh)
2 Condescend (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Condescend)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Terramorphic%20Expanse)
7 Swamp
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Mistblade Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mistblade%20Shinobi)
3 Echoing Truth (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Echoing%20Truth)
3 Negate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Negate)
3 Remove Soul (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Remove%20Soul)
4 Peppersmoke (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Peppersmoke)

The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.

Mirrinus' Pauper Mono White ControlDeck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

Creatures
4 Order of Leitbur (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=159188)
3 Shade of Trokair (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=shade%20of%20trokair)
4 Noble Templar (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Noble%20Templar)

Instants
4 Judge Unworthy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Judge%20Unworthy)
3 Dawn Charm (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Dawn%20Charm)
3 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
4 Fire at Will (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fire%20at%20Will)
4 Unmake (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Unmake)

Sorceries
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring)
2 Faith's Fetters (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Faith's%20Fetters)

Lands
20 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Secluded%20Steppe)

Sideboard
4 Circle of Protection: Red (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Circle%20of%20Protection:%20 Red)
1 Circle of Protection: Black (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=circle%20of%20protection:%20 black)
4 Kami of Ancient Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Kami%20of%20Ancient%20Law)
1 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)
4 Relic of Progenitus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus)

(Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.

Mirrinus' Mirror Sheen Combo
Format: Extended, preferably for 2HG

Creatures
4 Drift of Phantasms (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Drift%20of%20Phantasms)
4 Plumeveil (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Plumeveil)

Enchantments
3 Mirror Sheen (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mirror%20Sheen)

Instants
3 Swerve (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Swerve)
4 Hinder (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Hinder)
4 Electrolyze (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Electrolyze)
1 Oona's Grace (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=oona's%20grace)

Sorceries
4 Compulsive Research (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Compulsive%20Research)
3 Conflagrate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Conflagrate)
2 Cone of Flame (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cone%20of%20Flame)
1 Walk the Aeons (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Walk%20the%20Aeons)

Artifacts
4 Izzet Signet (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=izzet%20signet)

Lands
4 Vivid Creek (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Vivid%20Creek)
4 Vivid Crag (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Vivid%20Crag)
4 Izzet Boilerworks (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Izzet%20Boilerworks)
1 Mountain
10 Islands

So, what does this deck do? At its core, this deck is made to abuse Mirror Sheen with various effects that can target me. Beneficial effects like Compulsive Research, Oona's Grace, and Walk the Aeons can be spread to both myself and my teammate, especially in MTGO 2HG, where turns are taken separately. Meanwhile, burn spells like Electrolyze, Cone of Flame, and Conflagrate can spread their damage to point just 1 damage at me, allowing me to copy them as well.

My plan is to lay down some beefy blockers and control the board with versatile burn while building up mana and drawing cards for both me and my partner. Lots of card drawing spells plus Drift of Phantasms allows me to quickly find Mirror Sheen, while Hinder (my counterspell of choice in extended) and Swerve protect me and my flagship enchantment. With Mirror Sheen on the board, most of my spells become super-charged. Eventually, I will seek to win the game with a huge, crazy turn. Most commonly, I'll flashback Conflagrate for just 2 mana, discarding my hand of 7-8 cards and targetting myself with just 1 point of its damage, then pump all of my mana into copying that huge Conflagrate. With 8 mana available and 7 cards in hand, that's 20 damage divided as I choose, perfect for eliminating all blockers for my partner's alpha strike, or just sending it all to the dome. Or I can copy Walk the Aeons (and buy it back) before this too. Either way, my other goal is to supercharge my partner's deck, which I hope will make the game very fun for both of us. Most players appreciate being given extra cards and turns, right?

I still have no idea what I would do for the sideboard, as that doesn't usually come up for 2HG, but it might matter if I take the deck out for a spin in 1-on-1 duels, where it'd play more like a combo deck with heavy control elements. I'm also not sure about a few individual choices. Should I run cheaper burn that can't synergize well with Mirror Sheen? Are more board sweepers necessary? Do I have enough defense to avoid being run over in the early game? Is my mana base stable enough to support UUU for Plumeveil and RR in Cone of Flame and Conflagrate, or should I cut the Cone of Flames? Is Cone of Flames even worth 5 mana? Is Swerve any good at all? (It can counter counterspells by changing their target!)

Mirrinus' Game of Life
Format: Extended, both duels and FFA

Creatures
4 Leonin Squire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=72722)
4 Trinket Mage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50163)
1 Auriok Salvagers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51166)
2 Magus of the Disk (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126298)
3 Mulldrifter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189217)
3 Shriekmaw (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146175)
3 Twilight Shepherd (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152060)

Artifacts
4 Chromatic Star (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=135279)
1 Voyager Staff (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88991)
1 Sunbeam Spellbomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48214)
1 Æther Spellbomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48113)
1 Wayfarer's Bauble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51110)
1 Executioner's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174895)
1 Dispeller's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174830)

Instants
4 Momentary Blink (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109733)
3 Makeshift Mannequin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139670)

Lands
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
4 Flagstones of Trokair (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116733)
1 Mistveil Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142014)
1 Azorious Chancery
1 Orzhov Basilica
7 Plains
3 Island
2 Swamp

This deck is built around my personal favorite creature, Twilight Shepherd. It started out as a simple WUB blink deck, but then morphed into a toolbox-style deck revolving around 1-mana artifacts. Nearly every single card syngergizes with Twilight Shepherd. Any of the sacrificed artifacts can be returned to my hand with the angel's ability, evoke becomes absurd when the angel activates, CIP creatures play nicely with her, and wiping the board with Magus of the Disk tends to be rather one-sided when all my stuff comes back to me, including the Magus himself! But the star of the deck is Voyager Staff combined with Twilight Shepherd, which basically lets me pay 3 mana each turn to ensure that any permanent that goes to my graveyard that turn gets returned to my hand. That includes lands like Terramorphic Expanse and Flagstones of Trokair as well (hence the high number of basic lands to fetch). Mannequin and Momentary Blink both ensure that my angel is never rid of permanently, and Trinket Mage tutors for the Staff right when I need it, or for any other silver bullet artifact. The sideboard includes stuff like Relic of Progenitus, to hose even more strategies. Lack of artifact lands is due to anti-synergy with the Magus. It's a fun deck with an insane amount of resiliance, as that angel is almost impossible to ever get rid of permanently, thanks to the massive amount of blink and recursion in the deck.

Mirrinus' Countersliver
Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
Format: Extended Pauper

Creatures:
4 Azorius First-wing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97101)
4 Bant Sureblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188975)
4 Deft Duelist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175121)
4 Ethercaste Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179542)
4 Esper Stormblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188968)

Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183005)

Enchantments:
4 Temporal Isolation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106654)

Instants:
4 Mana Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122324)
4 Mana Leak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83160)
3 Remove Soul (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129699)
3 Hindering Light (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=177598)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
7 Island
7 Plains

Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5134) as its flagship creature.

Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158749). Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185141).

Graymare's Ella Enchanted
Creatures:
Dowsing Shaman (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88968) X2
Gatherer of Graces (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96877) X4
Gruul Guildmage (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96837) X1
Flaring Flame-kin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=111247) X4
Slith Firewalker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189222) X1
Spikeshot Goblin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46103) X1
Thran Golem (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83202) X1
Yavimaya Enchantress (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=130515) X4
Verduran Enchantress (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83320) X1

Enchantments:
Ancestral Mask (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19634) X2
Beastmaster's Magemark (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107689) X4
Crown of Flames (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23074) X1
Exoskeletal Armor (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29885) X1
Fencer's Magemark (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29885) X4
Fists of Ironwood (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83672) X1
Lightning Talons (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176446) X2
Treetop Bracers (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129777) X1
Uncontrollable Anger (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=134756) X1
Web (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83994) X1

Instants:
Grab the Reins (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=49435) X1
Naturalize (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174890) X2
Vitalize (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=14667) X1

Land:
Forest X10
Mountain X10
Skarrg, the Rage Pits (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=6088350) X2

Oh Lawd, my now seasoned Magic: The Gathering (tm) mind cries when it sees all of these X1's! As some people can guess, this isn't the most... stable of decks.

But, boy howdy, is it fun to play! The creatures it can manufacturer are always loaded with power. This is mostly from all of the synergy. My enchanted creatures make other enchanted creatures more powerful (and in the case of magemarks, give them extra abilities!).

Plus, it's fairly fast. Personal clicks can attest to its ability of bringing out big baddies in a relatively short amount of time.

However, I could always do with making it faster. In fact, this deck is in dire need of optimization, so I will acquiesce to your greater abilities playground if you would deign to help me. :smalltongue:

SoD's Naya DeckLittle Creatures:
Bloodbraid Elf (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/50.html)x1
Druid of the Anima (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/128.html)x2
Naya Hushblade (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/141.html)x3
Stun Sniper (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/100.html)x4
Wild Nacatl (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/152.html)x4 (1 foil)
Big creatures;
Hamletback Goliath (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/173.html)x1
Mossbridge Troll (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/123.html)x1 (1 foil)
Mycoid Shepherd (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/73.html)x1
Mycoloth (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/140.html)x3
Spearbreaker Behemoth (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/150.html)x1
Spellbreaker Behemoth (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/60.html)x
Vigor (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/240.html)x2
Wooly Thoctar (http://magiccards.info/card.php?card=Woolly%20Thoctar)x4
Artifacts:
Behemoth Sledge (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/65.html)x1
Mage Slayer (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/57.html)x2
Enchantements:
Happy Song (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/121.html)x1
Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/20.html)x1
Instants;
Path to Exile (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/15.html)x2
Volcanic Fallout (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/74.html)x1
Sorcer...Sorcery's? Sorceries? Sorceri? Sorceri, yeah. That sounds good. Sorceri:
None.
Planeswalkers:
Ajani Vengeant (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/154.html)x1
Lands:
Fire-Lit Thicket (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/271.html)x1
Forestx4
Jungle Shrine (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/226.html)x4
Mountainx4 (2 foil)
Naya Panorama (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/227.html)x1
Plainsx3
Wooded Bastion (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/281.html)x1
Vivid Crag (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/275.html)x2
Vivid Grove (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/277.html)x1

Fun Combinations; Double Vigor. Need I say more? Happy Song (Mayael's Aria) (at begining of upkeep, stuff, then win the game if you control creature with power 20 or greater) combined with Mossbridge Troll (tap a bunch of creatures, Mossbridge Troll gets +20/+20 til end of turn.
Mycoloth.
Another Mycoloth.
Spellbreaker Behemoth's to stop your big things from getting countered.
Spearbreaker Behemoth to stop them getting killed.
Vigor to make them tougher.
Hamletback Goliath+Mycoloth. I spawn more Saprolings. My Hamletback gets bigger.

I'm trying to work out what to remove for a Windbrisk Raptor (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/26.html) and a Rage Reflection (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/104.html). Any suggestions?
And secondly; Foily Noble Hierach.

Narkis' Dastardly Devour Deck[/COLOR]Creatures

4 X Tukatongue Thallid (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184995)
4 X Sprouting Thrinax (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174863)
2 X Hissing Iguanar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174873)
2 X Thorn-Thrash Viashino (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175064)
4 X Mycoloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174975)
2 X Predator Dragon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174968)

Other Spells

4 X Bone Splinters (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174967)
4 X Fate Transfer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=147411)
4 X Dragon Fodder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174936)
2 X Soul's Fire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174951)
4 X Morbid Bloom (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179614)

Lands

4 X Savage Lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174877)
2 X Veinfire Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189640)
2 X Firewild Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188974)
6 X Forest
6 X Mountain
4 X Swamp

Flame Master Axel's RBWLightning Reaver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180617) x2
Demigod of Revenge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153972) x2
Hellspark Elemental (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174799) x3
Hell's Thunder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176455) x2
Termiante (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176449) x3
Blightning (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174917) x4
Tidehollow Sculler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175054) x2
Wall of Reverence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189874) x2
Path to Exile (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179235) x3
Ajani Vengeant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174852)
Thought Hemorrhage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180596) x2
Bitminous Blast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185057)
Cerodon Yearling (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180604) x2
Anathemancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179538) x2
Mogg Fanatic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=157925) x2
Sewn-Eye Drake (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179594)
Demonspine Whip (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180311)
Intimidation Bolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179568)
Slave of Bolas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188971)
Volcanic Fallout (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180274)
Pyroclasm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129801)
Guttural Respone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158773)

Veinfire Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189640)
Savage Lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174877) x2
Jungle Shrine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175060) x2
Rupture Spire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142301) x2
Fetid Heath (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153446)
Battlefield Forge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129479)
Swamp x4
Mountain x4
Plains x3

Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control
Creatures (13)
4x Divinity of Pride (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/86.html)
4x Graveborn Muse (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/145.html)
2x Shimian Specter (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/76.html)
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Artifacts (1)
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/149.html)

Instants (4)
4x Mortify (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/121.html)

Sorceries (16)
4x Demonic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/al/en/13.html)
4x Vindicate (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/126.html) (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)until I can afford a playset)
4x Gerrard's Verdict (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/82.html)
2x Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/61.html)
2x Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)

Land (24)
4x Godless Shrine (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/157.html)
4x Fetid Heath (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/176.html)
4x Caves of Koilos (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/350.html)
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/283.html)
1x Eiganjo Castle (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/275.html)
2x Orzhova, Church of Deals (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/162.html)
3x Flagstones of Trokair (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html)
2x Forbidding Watchtower (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/352.html)
2x Swamp (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/238.html)
1x Plains (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/283.html)

To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is. :smallamused:

MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:

Creatures:
Supreme Exemplar (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/53.html) x2
Mulldrifter (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/76.html) x3
Mournwhelk (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/127.html) x3
Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html) x3
Spitebellows (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/105.html) x3
Inner-Flame Acolyte (http://magiccards.info/jvc/en/41.html) x3
Stingscourger (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/107.html) x3

Artifacts:
Proteus Staff (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/230.html) x3
Cauldron of Souls (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/248.html) x3
Cloudstone Curio (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/257.html) x3
Armillary Sphere (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/134.html) x3

Sorceries:
Heat Shimmer (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/175.html) x2

Instants:
Peel from Reality (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/61.html) x2
Turn to Mist (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/155.html) x4

Lands:
Basic Swamp x6
Basic Mountain x7
Basic Island x7

Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
Thrumming Stone (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/142.html)
Coalition Relic (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/161.html)
Cruel Ultimatum (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/164.html) x3
River Kelpie (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/49.html) x2
Heat Shimmer
Mana Echoes (http://magiccards.info/on/en/218.html) x2
Dawn of the Dead (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/59.html)
Tar Fiend (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/89.html) x2
Footbottom Feast (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/115.html) x3

The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it leaves play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be terribly worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them. :smallbiggrin:

Please include lots of info on how to play the deck so that others can partake in the fun that is whatever deck you have destroyed the Multiverse with.
Also, it should be noted that this list was maintained by Squark, tgva (that me!) and Johnny Blade before Shas.
Also, if anyone wants to drop/update any of these decks, let me know.

tgva8889

2011-06-15, 10:12 PM

Past topics since the first post takes up too much space:
Magic: the Gathering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84019)
Magic: the Gathering II - Planeswalkers in the Playground - (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111185)
Magic: the Gathering III - These Planes Are Made For Walkin' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119615)
Magic: the Gathering IV: "Burn, Mana, Burn" as they used to say (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125812)
Magic: the Gathering V: Ophidians on a Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7739504#post7739504)
Magic: the Gathering VI: This Thread Dies to Removal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149503)
Magic: The Gathering VII: Thopter? I Barely Knew'er! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162760)
Magic: The Gathering VIII: We Should have a Mythic By Now (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9816150#post9816150)
Magic: The Gathering IX: Gone Through Lotus of Threads Already! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10530604#post10530604)

List of MtG-related websites put together by Johnny Blades and others:
The official site. (http://www.wizards.com/magic/) From here you can reach:
The page for Magic Online (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnline.aspx), if you want to give it a try. Note that, while you have to pay/trade for cards, there are bots who give them away for free. I don't have any experience with this, but there are people posting in this thread that do.
The DCI (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/welcome), for organized play.
Gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Default.aspx), WotC's card search.

magiccards.info (http://magiccards.info/), another place to waste lots of time browsing through cards. It doesn't have the user ratings and comments of Gatherer, but lists the prices of several online vendors and, surprisingly, has more card images. The interface is also better in my opinion.

MTGSalvation (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/). That place has a lot of stuff, including a wiki, a huge forum, and many articles of varying quality. They also spoil all the cards of the next set well in advance, so this is where we'll usually get future cards from.

StarCityGames (http://www.starcitygames.com/) - they make you pay for much of their newer content, but what you can get for free is certainly good enough.

Elder Dragon Highlander (http://www.dragonhighlander.net/rules.php), the official page. Always up to date and it has a forum about this popular variant multiplayer format as well. If you want to learn even more about the format, go here!

Le Bestiaire (http://draft.bestiaire.org/), an online draft simulator. It gives you some pretty odd ratings sometimes, but at least there is actual feedback.

Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com/), a program for...a lot of things, including collection management and online play. Supports more TCGs than just Magic. There's a freeware version available.

Cockatrice (http://cockatrice.de/), an other program for over-the-web Magic playing for no cost. Also has card images built in. Generally updates pretty frequently.

TC Decks (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/), where you can see which decks have tournament success. The decks are essentially named by the people who play them, and if you're looking for, say, Legacy decks, you'll soon find out that not all tournaments are really at Pro Tour level, but this is still an invaluable site for anyone who wants to keep up with the tournament scene.

Magic: the Gathering Source Forums (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/), which is great for people looking into legacy.

The Mana Drain (http://www.themanadrain.com/), more forums, this time for people looking into Vintage.

Tapped Out (http://www.tappedout.net/), a deck building and critique community. Build any number of decks and put them up for review/critique/comment/display. Or, keep them private. They also have pretty graphic representations of your mana curve, colour costs and colour generation.

http://www.highlandermagic.info/ The site for German Rules highlander. It's a 100-card singleton format, but the rules are rather different from EDH. They're more in line with the normal rules, and the banlist is made with a more competitive mindset in mind.

http://deckstats.net/ Calculates mana curve, compares color spread to manabase colors, calculates prices for the deck as well as some other functions. It can handle MWSDeck files and can also save decks pasted into it in the format.
GITP Magicgroup play-by-post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181087)

GITP Magic: The Gathering Freeform RP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190054)

Requested: A short commentary on sorting your deck, by tgva8889:
When building a deck, sorting your cards is very important. While the following advice applies mainly to Highlander formats (specifically Commander), you may find it useful in other formats.

The largest problem I’ve observed in deckbuilding is cutting cards. We all know that you have the best odds when you play the smallest number of cards. The difference may seem small, but every difference matters. When you’re trying to remove cards from your deck, you are trying to find the cards you don’t need. However, if your methods of sorting are inefficient, it’s very hard to see what exactly you “don’t need” in your list. I mean, looking at a random pile of 80 cards, which 20 cards don’t you need? You couldn’t know without knowing some aspect of those cards. Sorting allows you to classify your cards by some useful characteristic, so that you can tell whether or not you do have parts that are in excess of what you need or cards that you actually just don’t need.

While there are many methods of sorting, I think the first method of sorting everyone is most familiar with is Type Sorting. This is where you sort your deck list by whatever card types you happen to have. The most common is Land, Creatures, and Non-Creatures. While it is a useful rudimentary step, this form of sorting is fundamentally flawed. Most of the time, this doesn’t help you. For example, let’s take two cards that share a type: Sakura-Tribe Elder (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247176”) and Woodfall Primus (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=151987”). Now, obviously these are both Green creatures. But that’s where the similarity ends. One of these cards is a land-accelerator only pretending to be a creature for long enough to block, while the other is a huge 6/6 that eats a permanent. These things are not very similar. However, a sort by Card Type puts these cards in the same classification category. On the other side, Flame Slash (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193648”) and Flametongue Kavu (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247368”) don’t share a card type, but it’s hard to deny you wouldn’t use both to kill creatures given the option. These cards would be in totally different parts of your list, though!

It is much easier to see a flaw if cards are sorted in a different manner. The manner that I suggest is the Function Sort. Sort all your cards by their intended function in your deck. For example, Sakura-Tribe Elder is a card you play for Mana Acceleration, so I sort it into the Mana Acceleration section. Woodfall Primus ends up in my Kills Non-Creatures secton. Both Flame Slash and Flametongue Kavu end up in my Kills Creatures section. This method allows you to see the cards by the purpose they serve in your deck, rather than by an arbitrary category. (You could sort your Lands this way, too, but I consider “Land” to be a Function, as lands are very special cards.) Some example categories pretty much every deck should be considering:
Win Conditions
Mana Acceleration/Fixing
Card Drawing
Library Manipulation
Kills Creatures
Kills Non-Creatures
Kills Lots of Stuff (Wraths)

Now, you can also condense those categories if you want. For example, “Kills Creatures” and “Kills Non-Creatures” could just be listed as “Kills Stuff” if it’s not really significant that you have a certain spread.

(I’ll add an example, but this is the bare-bones of the suggestion.)

There are many, many, many cards that reference this title. It was time. We went for the Blaze (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205264).

Also, please let us know if you want something in the first post added, edited or removed.

Recaiden

2011-06-15, 10:19 PM

So how do you pay mana cost for a thread?

tgva8889

2011-06-15, 10:25 PM

You tap your Posts for mana.

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-15, 10:40 PM

Or you use Wizard's latest uber broken, super expensive mythic rare that Donald Trump has to take a loan out to buy that costs 0 and allows you to pay X life to gain 2 times X mana of any color combination of your choice that can be used to pay the cost of everything, even threads.

Lhurgyof

2011-06-15, 10:55 PM

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-15, 10:57 PM

The-Mage-King

2011-06-15, 10:57 PM

Wut.

Anyway, my artifact deck, for the decklist.

Call it "Troll 'em".
2 Etherium Sculptor
1 Master of Etherium
1 Master Transmuter
1 Memnarch
2 Memnite
2 Ornithopter
1 Platinum Angel
1 Precursor Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Creatures [13]1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Planeswalkers [2]1 Clock of Omens
2 Contagion Engine
1 Darksteel Forge
2 Disperse
2 Elixir of Immortality
4 Energy Chamber
4 Everflowing Chalice
2 Golem Foundry
1 Lux Cannon
1 Mirrorworks
1 Rite of Replication
1 Skeleton Shard
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Stoic Rebuttal
Spells [25]2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Dreadship Reef
9 Island
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Vault of Whispers
Lands [20]

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-15, 11:02 PM

Can't be any worse then me. I have a deck that runs four coppies of Tinker. Yes, I did just say four copies of TINKER, a card thats banned in basicly every format. Then again, in my playgroup I am known for playing extremely annoying/hate-worthy decks so what you did can't be any worse then some of the stuff I have pulled....and if you have somebody using money cards like that they I personally believe your justified in what your doing. Using strategy, dastardly deck desgines and evil combos is perfectly fair in my book. You found the combo and/or made the deck, so you have a right to use it. Using your upper-class spoiled brat status to buy your way to victory? Not so much. So your totally justified in using it, though remember....this is advice from the guy whom is dubbed lawful evil by friends and plays a deck with 4 coppies of tinker...so I may not be the most qualified person to go to...

Oh, and since we're on an artifact binge, I may as well post up the infamous Tinker deck for the lolz..

Lands:
1x Acadamy Ruins
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Stalking Stones
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Seat of the Synod
11x Island

Creatures:
4x Vedlakin Engineer
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Sundering Titan
1x Memnarch
1x Pentavus
1x Triskeleton
2x Master Transmuter
2x Master of Ethirum
2x Steel Overseer
4x Ethirum Sculptor

Other Spells:
2x Tezzeret the Seeker
4x Tinker
1x Darksteel Forge
1x Myr Incubator
1x Contagion Engine
2x Blinkmoth Urn
4x Energy Chamber
4x Everflowing Challice

Yeah, a nasty, nasty deck indeed. Oh, and this is also my archenemy deck of choice. It pairs nicely with the scheme deck from "Assemble the Doomsday Machine." Also, don't tell me 22 lands are too few. This deck runs fine with 22 lands, mostly due to all the absurd excell options it has.

Lhurgyof

2011-06-15, 11:07 PM

Can't be any worse then me. I have a deck that runs four coppies of Tinker. Yes, I did just say four copies of TINKER, a card thats banned in basicly every format. Then again, in my playgroup I am known for playing extremely annoying/hate-worthy decks so what you did can't be any worse then some of the stuff I have pulled....and if you have somebody using money cards like that they I personally believe your justified in what your doing. Using strategy, dastardly deck desgines and evil combos is perfectly fair in my book. You found the combo and/or made the deck, so you have a right to use it. Using your upper-class spoiled brat status to buy your way to victory? Not so much. So your totally justified in using it, though remember....this is advice from the guy whom is dubbed lawful evil by friends and plays a deck with 4 coppies of tinker...so I may not be the most qualified person to go to.

Haha, well basically it got to the point where there was NO turn order at all. And nobody could draw. Also, all my stuff was indestructable and my general could snipe out any creature.

Now, the myr incubator combo puts about 40 1/1 indestructable myr under my control.

I actually won the second game too, at 6 life. I used shennanigans with Clock of Omens (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Clock+of+Omens&v=card&s=cname), Summoning Station (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Summoning+Station&v=card&s=cname), and Mycosynth Lattice (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Mycosynth+Lattice&v=card&s=cname). :smallamused:

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-15, 11:17 PM

Sounds fun. Do you happen to have the fabled "Great Machine" infinent combo in your deck? If so, have you ever mannaged to get it out? I always wanted to play in a game in which somebody was actually able to get that combo online just due to how ridicilous it would be to see it do it's thing.

Also, another deck for the pot....my "Necromancer deck" aka Mono B Reanimator!

Lands:
22x Swamp

Creatures:
1x Sheoldred, the Whispering One
1x Avatar of Woe
1x Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
1x Prince of Thralls
1x Rakdos the Defiler
1x Jin-Gitaxis, Core Auger
1x Vorenclex, the Voice of Hunger
1x Blazing Achron
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Platnium Angel
2x Corpse Connisure
4x Doomed Necromancer
4x Rotting Rats

Other Spells:
4x Zombie Infestation
4x Animate Dead
2x Beacon of Unrest
4x Burried Alive
4x Exhume

Also, suprisingly enough, I pulled the Akroma centuries ago in a Time Sprial booster.

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-16, 12:07 AM

So, I've got a new EDH deck for PbP. What do you guys think? Any necessary obvious fixes or bits of stupidity on my part?

EDH - Harvester of Sorrow

Commander: Teneb, the Harvester

1. Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2. Overgrown Tomb
3. Bayou
4. Verdant Catacombs
5. Cabal Coffers
6. Scrubland
7. Marsh Flats
8. Temple Garden
9. Reflecting Pool
10. Savannah
11. Godless Shrine
12. Wooded Bastion
13. Fetid Heath
14. Twilight Mire
15. Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
16. Eiganjo Castle
17. Golgari Rot Farm
18. Selesnya Sanctuary
19. Orzhov Basilica
20. Gaea's Cradle
21. Crypt of Agadeem
22. Wasteland
23. Gilt-Leaf Palace
24. Grasslands
25. Karakas
26. Pendelhaven
27. Urborg
28. Razorverge Thicket
29. Bant Panorama
30. Esper Panorama
31. Jund Panorama
32. Stirring Wildwood
33. Swamp
34. Swamp
35. Swamp
36. Swamp
37. Vampiric Tutor
38. Enlightened Tutor
39. Sol Ring
40. Sensei's Divining Top
41. Reanimate
42. Entomb
43. Skullclamp
44. Swords to Plowshares
45. Eladamri's Call
46. Dance of the Dead
47. Orzhov Signet
48. Selesnya Signet
49. Golgari Signet
50. Survival of the Fittest
51. Regrowth
52. Night's Whisper
53. Saffi Eriksdotter
54. Altar of Dementia
55. Llanowar Elves
56. Sylvan Library
57. Demonic Tutor
58. Animate Dead
59. Grim Tutor
60. Coffin Queen
61. Phyrexian Arena
62. Eternal Witness
63. Elvish Piper
64. Aura of Silence
65. Seal of Primordium
66. Mimic Vat
67. Kodama's Reach
68. Genesis Wave
69. Yavamaya Elder
70. Putrefy
71. Vindicate
72. Mortify
73. Oracle of Mul Daya
74. Solemn Simulacrum
75. Linvala, Keeper of Silence
76. Geth's Verdict
77. Damnation
78. Garruk Wildspeaker
79. Academy Rector
80. Elspeth, Knight-Errant
81. Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
82. Greater Good
83. Reveillark
84. Primal Command
85. Acidic Slime
86. Living Death
87. Mirari's Wake
88. Adarkar Valkyrie
89. Grave Titan
90. Sun Titan
91. Yosei, the Morning Star
92. Kokusho, the Evening Star
93. Austere Command
94. Tooth and Nail
95. Iona, Shield of Emeria
96. Dread
97. Necroplasm
98. Pentarch Paladin
99. Yawgmoth's Bargain

Seriously, does anyone have some constructive critiques, ideas, or just yelling at me for being stupid? :smallwink::smallsmile:

Frankelshtein

2011-06-16, 01:37 AM

I made a decklist for my Savra EDH deck, and I'd be thankful for some advice, constructive criticism, etc...

17 Forest
1 Golgari Rot Farm
18 Swamp

1 Carrion Feeder
1 Deathgreeter
1 Festering Goblin
1 Fume Spitter
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Mortician Beetle
1 Odious Trow
1 Plagued Rusalka
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Tukatongue Thallid
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Golgari Guildmage
1 Golgari Thug
1 Nezumi Bone-Reader
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Skirk Ridge Exhumer
1 Viridian Emissary
1 Woodlurker Mimic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Garza's Assassin
1 Gluttonous Slime
1 Hag Hedge-Mage
1 Rendclaw Trow
1 Shambling Shell
1 Vampire Aristocrat
1 Canker Abomination
1 Creakwood Liege
1 Desecrator Hag
1 Fleshwrither
1 Marsh Flitter
1 Noxious Hatchling
1 Penumbra Spider
1 Savra, Queen of the Golgari
1 Scavenger Drake
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Marrow Chomper
1 Mitotic Slime
1 Mycoloth
1 Skullmulcher
1 Deadwood Treefolk
1 Drooling Groodion
1 Gleancrawler
1 Butcher of Malakir
1 Doomgape

1 Bone Splinters
1 Demonic Appetite
1 Quest for the Gravelord
1 Sol Ring
1 Soul Stair Expedition
1 Evolution Charm
1 Go for the Throat
1 Golgari Signet
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Ooze Garden
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Fallen Ideal
1 Golgari Germination
1 Putrefy
1 Birthing Pod
1 Bonehoard
1 Damnation
1 Dread Return
1 Fresh Meat
1 Grave Pact

I've done a few fish games, and the deck seems fun in theory. Some ideas on how to make it better would be great. I'm hoping to have this up and running before my store's release weekend event :smallbiggrin:.

Reposting. I really have no idea if I'm doing this right/wrong, and would be quite happy for some feedback.

I mocked it up on mtgdeckbuilder, so you can look through the various cards. The list may be a tad inaccurate, but I'm pretty sure I got everything in.
http://mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/115058

Or you use Wizard's latest uber broken, super expensive mythic rare that Donald Trump has to take a loan out to buy that costs 0 and allows you to pay X life to gain 2 times X mana of any color combination of your choice that can be used to pay the cost of everything, even threads.

Which is, of course STILL less expensive than JtMS:smalltongue:

tgva8889

2011-06-16, 04:41 AM

Frankelstein: It looks like your deck isn't 99 cards + Savra. Maybe I can't judge size just by looking. I didn't count. Also, don't include Savra as part of your list, put her at the top and label her your General. If you are playing Commander, Savra won't start in your starting deck, she'll hang out in the Command Zone until you cast her. The rest of your deck should consist of 99 cards. It's generally better to sort that way, trust me.

First thing I would suggest is to adjust your mana. You definitely either want to be playing like 15+ non-basic lands or a few specific ones. I'd suggest you play more if you aren't trying to do tricky things. Some good ones you should be able to find pretty easily include various (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205236) kinds (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193483) of (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25980) fetches (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193400), and some (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107504) answers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197855). There are also tons of other lands I can list, like the (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202604) dual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=89072) lands (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119511&stc=1&d=1307419243) you (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129627) may (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220963) want (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=31760), the Black mana machine of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=131005) and Cabal Coffers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205421), as well as a bunch of rare (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88807) lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74388) that (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=113543) do (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5263) awesome (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=10422) stuff (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19890). I also suggest increasing your land count from 36 to at least 39. It will make sense in a minute.

You are playing a lot of early drops. I count 25 creatures that cost 3 or less. Commander is not the kind of format where you generally want to do this. You can, there's nothing wrong with it, but you don't need to. Your starting life total is 40. You have more time to build up. And your early turns should definitely be spent playing more innocuous things, cards like Rampant Growth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205350) and Sensei's Divining Top (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194972). During the early turns, you want to be building up so that you can drop much larger, more game-changing things than Odious Trow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=150977). The reason you want to up your land count is so that you can cast awesome spells like Praetor's Counsel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214034), Sheoldred, Whispering One (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214382), or Symbiotic Wurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=39925), Penumbra Wurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=27669), and other such fun bomby/splashy cards. Oh, I forgot the big ones, Reiver Demon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197027), Plague Wind (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129679), and Decree of Pain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43522). You will have the time to cast these cards in a general Commander game, because you should have both mana acceleration to get there and the time to draw the necessary lands. It should be a multiplayer game that provides the situation for the casting of at least a few of these cards (all of which are awesome, by the way).

Now, looking specifically at your deck, I notice you have fairly few cards that constantly produce tokens. Your Savra deck should (and apparently does) do a lot of sacrificing. You probably want some creatures to sacrifice, and you don't have great streams of creatures with which to do so without some token generation. May I suggest Worm Harvest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=151135)? Not repetitive, but a nice source of guys to send to the grave. Anyways, you probably want a way to repetitively produce tokens to sacrifice.

In my experience, in EDH, big dumb creatures aren't that useful. For example, there are probably better ways to sacrifice a creature than Bloodthrone Vampire, Carrion Feeder, or Vampire Aristocrat. For example, may I suggest Greater Good (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83035), one of the best Green cards ever? How about Malevolent Awakening (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=30560)? Archdemon of Unx (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174847) seems fun, as does Attrition (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15191). There's also Mind Slash (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45304), Sadistic Hypnotist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=31809), Quatmire Druid (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=27188), Stronghold Assassin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25645)... even Perilous Forays (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83744) may not be totally terrible (having a lot of mana is awesome in EDH). Also, Victimize (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=10655) is such an unreal card. You don't want to just play creatures that only attack and block, unless they are very, very, very good at it. You want your creatures to do something else, because you want to be getting good value out of them. Creatures like Shriekmaw (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220572) and Nekrataal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129658) are sweet because you get to kill something and have a decent creature out of the deal. Even larger creatures should be doing something special, in my opinion. You just don't want random dudes like Noxious Hatchling.

Similarly, I wouldn't spend too many slots dealing with singular target creatures unless you're netting value. There should be a lot of mass-destruction going around (and you should be playing some of it, especially Nevinyrral's Disk (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=212637) and Oblivion Stone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34901), as well as the reason you play GB, Pernicious Deed (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25953)), so you don't need to play too much (though having it is far from bad). Putrefy is good because it's flexible. Go For The Throat is a bit less so. Bone Splinters is even worse because it's massively disadvantageous. You want to be playing Nekrataal-effects, or creatures that kill when they die, like Abyssal Gatekeeper (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197037). There are tons of Black creatures that can do this, and you can even play Artifact creatures like Duplicant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220526) if you get stuck.

I would also suggest that you play Artifact and Enchantment destruction, as they are very, very important card types to be killing. Some great options include Acidic Slime (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207333), Indrik Stomphowler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201834), Wickerbough Elder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220575), Woodfall Primus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=151987), Primal Command (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220571), and Brutalizer Exarch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=217998), though there are many, many more.

Finally, land searching. It's awesome. I've found myself playing Explosive Vegetation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205368), then playing Regrowth so I could do it again because it was so awesome and important to have a billion mana. I also suggest Cultivate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=204996) and Kodama's Reach (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50299), as well as some land-searching creatures like Yavimaya Elder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207887), Civic Wayfinder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=130522), Yavimaya Granger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=12656), and Solemn Simulacrum (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=49434) (which is a card that I put in every EDH deck). There are many more (you're playing Sakura-Tribe Elder already). They're all probably worthwhile.

That's just a few suggestions. I didn't even mention many of the Artifacts you could consider, for example. And there's so many directions you could go. Commander is fun because of that. I would definitely take to heart the main elements of Commander as a format, though:

Mana Acceleration and Land Search are Key
Creatures should do more than just attack and block
Kill permanents besides creatures
Go Big or Go Home

I hope you enjoy yourself playing some Commander! I suggest purchasing one of the Commander decks (probably Devour for Power for this particular deck) to get some good cards and perhaps more of a feel for what kinds of cards this format is all about.

Eon

2011-06-16, 11:18 AM

Bandil's annoyed rant...

I was playing a casual Emperor game a few days ago, and I was testing this black deck. I'd post it, but you'd laugh :smalltongue:.

During the game, the guard across from me played a card (Can't remember which) that is a key component of their deck. I cast a Doom Blade and a Soul Reap to clear out his creatures. I was trying to keep his combo out and have free swings.

Since the key component was a 1/1, our emperor started yelling and calling me terrible at magic since I doom bladed a 1/1. :smallannoyed: Chiefly since their emperor played Vorinclex, even though I still wouldn't have been able to destroy it yet.

Now, even though I should have saved it, what made me even more annoyed was the Emperor and the other guard were both getting mad at me. The other guard had a deck that really didn't work, and the emperor had 1 mana :smallfurious:. Why he kept that opening hand? It had a Karn. Nevertheless, he conceded after not being able to play anything due to a lack of mana... :smallannoyed:

Also, Maho... You sound like a very cruel person... I like it. :smallamused:

Squark

2011-06-16, 12:36 PM

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-16, 12:44 PM

Bandil, thanks for the complement.

Anyway, I am still awating the EDH starters, espcially the R/W/B one. I already have planes for my "wrath of tarel" EDH deck that will combind Tariel's reanimation effect with loads and loads of mass board wipes and cards that love fat graveyards like Debtor's Knell, Necromancer's Covenant, Scion of Darkness ect...Heck, maybe even Mortivore will find himself among the deck's ranks. If only there was some obscure, old burn spell that dealt damage to a player equal to the number of cards in their graveyard...

As for Earthquake and Savage Twister, I would say add them. A board wipe is a board wipe and board wipes are good, espcially in EDH. Though take this with a grain of salt as my "signature card" is damnation.

Suedars

2011-06-16, 12:51 PM

If the key component was for a major combo, killing it was the right play. Even if Vorinclex is out, you, he's merely dangerous. An Infinite Combo will probably kill you and your emperor in one fell swoop. Killing the other dude... Depends on what it was.

EDIT: Also, If I'm building an Intet, the Dreamer EDH deck, should I run stuff like Earthquake and savage twister, even if they're wasted cards if Intet turns them over?

How much library manipulation do you have? If you have plenty, running them is fine. If you don't have much, I'd look at other sweepers, but would still run them if you're out of other sweeper options and still need more.

Chen

2011-06-16, 01:53 PM

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-16, 02:11 PM

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-16, 02:14 PM

On the subject of Commander: right now, I have a Jhoira deck that's gradually evolved from cheating out bunches of big stuff with her to a U/r control deck that occasionally cheats out a Time Stretch, Thought Reflection, or Aeon Chronicler with her. I'm thinking of getting one of the Commander decks, probably the UGB one, and making two decks; a U/R combo deck with Niv-Mizzet as the general, and a U/g/b deck with ramp and lots of big, powerful spells.

For the U/r deck - I'll have Niv-Mizzet, Curiosity, and Ophidian Eye to combo with him. I'll have Vesuvan Shapeshifter and Brine Elemental for the Pickles lock. I'll have Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch, Splinter Twin, and Kiki-Jiki for that combo. Any other notable simple combos I should put in?

For the U/g/b deck - for my big (7+ mana) spells, I'm looking at the following as potential inclusions:
-Time Stretch
-Thought Reflection
-Blatant Thievery
-Praetor's Counsel
-Jin-Gitaxias
-Avenger of Zendikar
-Commandeer
-Knowledge Exploitation
-Lim-Dul the Necromancer
-Sheoldred
-Sphinx Ambassador
-Take Possession
-Tooth and Nail
-Decree of Pain
-Mindleech Mass
-Stormtide Leviathan
-Terastodon
-Tidespout Tyrant
-Vorinclex
-Yavimaya's Embrace
-Plague Wind
-Eternal Dominion

Any thoughts on these? Any big splashy spells I should include, or things on this list I shouldn't put in it?

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-16, 02:18 PM

Ah, Eternal Dominion. Probably the only one of the Epic spells that isn't guaranteed to royally screw you over. :smallbiggrin:

Frankelshtein

2011-06-16, 02:54 PM

*Amazing Advice*

Wow, thanks for all of this advice.

I can definitely see myself adding more nonbasic lands (aside from some of the better fetch lands), and also replacing Go for the Throat and Bone Splinters with bigger, better board wipes (I should be able to procure Plague Wind and/or Reiver Demon with little difficulty). One thing I greatly enjoy about this deck, is that I can wipe the board simply by sacrificing whatever I have with Savra, Grave Pact, or Butcher of Malakir in play.

My reasoning behind lots of tiny creatures is hopefully having a creature advantage, mass sacrificing into an easy outlet (this is why I like Bloodthrone, Aristocrat, etc.), and swinging in hard. I do need some source of significant card advantage to work for that, though, and Greater Good seems to be perfect for that :smallbiggrin:

(And OH MAH GAWD, I just realized Woebringer Demon may actually work in this deck :smallbiggrin:)

As far as token production goes, the best source of that I have currently is Creakwood Liege (which I can get with Fleshwrither). Golgari Germanation and Ooze Garden also work somewhat at token generators, to an extent (since in an ideal situation, they'll net me creature advantage). I'm not entirely sure about Worm Harvest, seeing as I don't know how many lands I'll be putting into the graveyard (even with more sac-lands). If it turns out that I have more, that'll definitely be making it in.

A lot of the sacrifice outlets you recommended me seem great (<3 Malevolent Awakening), but I'm not sure I'll be able to get my hands on them. As far as sacrifice outlets go, I think I'll keep the basic structure I have now, and be on the lookout for something better.

So, I decided to take out some of the more underwhelming 1 and 2 drops, and a couple of the "dead weight" creatures that I only had in there for their green/black status. I ended up adding many of the larger drops that were recommended, as well as some better board wipes.

Changes:

-1 Festering Goblin
-1 Deathgreeter
-1 Carrion Feeder
-1 Starved Rusalka
-1 Nezumi Bone Reader
-1 Skirk Ridge Exhumer
-1 Gazra's Assassin (I liked Shriekmaw better)
-1 Canker Abomination
-1 Noxious Hatchling
-1 Go For the Throat
-1 Bone Splinters
+1 Cultivate (thought I had one in there already)
+1 Woebringer Demon
+1 Reiver Demon
+1 Woodfall Primus (I knew I had one lying around somehwere)
+1 Plague Wind
+1 Abyssal Gatekeeper
+1 Archdemon of Unx (How did I miss Demons as far as the "Sacrificial" theme went?)
+1 Greater Good
+1 Brutalizer Exarch
+1 Sheoldred (I have no idea how I missed this obvious synergy XD)
+1 Forest (not as many as recommended, but there were no other clear cuts. I expect to play around with land count a bit more as I continue to learn the deck).

-Somenumberofbasiclands
+Somenumberoffunlands

Updated Decklist (out of order, because mtgdeckbuilder isn't the best at that)

Commander: Savra, Queen of the Golgari

Lands:

18 Swamp
18 Forest
1 Golgari Rot Farm

37 Lands

Creatures:

1 Fume Spitter
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Plagued Rusalka
1 Tukatongue Thallid
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Odious Trow
1 Golgari Guildmage
1 Golgari Thug
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Viridian Emissary
1 Woodlurker Mimic
1 Gluttonous Slime
1 Hag Hedge-Mage
1 Rendclaw Trow
1 Shambling Shell
1 Vampire Aristocrat
1 Creakwood Liege
1 Desecrator Hag
1 Fleshwrither
1 Marsh Flitter
1 Penumbra Spider
1 Scavenger Drake
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Marrow Chomper
1 Mitotic Slime
1 Skullmulcher
1 Drooling Groodion
1 Gleancrawler
1 Butcher of Malakir
1 Doomgape
1 Mycoloth
1 Deadwood Treefolk
1 Mortician Beetle
1 Woebringer Demon
1 Reiver Demon
1 Shriekmaw
1 Abyssal Gatekeeper
1 Archdemon of Unx
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Brutalizer Exarch
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One

42 Creatures
Other Spells:

1 Demonic Appetite
1 Quest for the Gravelord
1 Sol Ring
1 Soul Stair Expedition
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Ooze Garden
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Fallen Ideal
1 Golgari Germination
1 Cultivate
1 Putrefy
1 Birthing Pod
1 Fresh Meat
1 Grave Pact
1 Damnation
1 Evolution Charm
1 Golgari Signet
1 Bonehoard
1 Plague Wind
1 Dread Return
1 Greater Good

21 Other Spells

and the link: http://mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/115058

I'd like to thank you again for the amazing advice. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to look my deck over, and it's looking a lot better now.

Can't wait to try this out :smallsmile:

Suedars

2011-06-16, 03:00 PM

Anyway, I am still awating the EDH starters, espcially the R/W/B one. I already have planes for my "wrath of tarel" EDH deck that will combind Tariel's reanimation effect with loads and loads of mass board wipes and cards that love fat graveyards like Debtor's Knell, Necromancer's Covenant, Scion of Darkness ect...Heck, maybe even Mortivore will find himself among the deck's ranks. If only there was some obscure, old burn spell that dealt damage to a player equal to the number of cards in their graveyard...

It's not a burn spell, but you might want to look into Guiltfeeder.

Fable Wright

2011-06-16, 03:40 PM

Ah, Eternal Dominion. Probably the only one of the Epic spells that isn't guaranteed to royally screw you over. :smallbiggrin:

No, Enduring Ideal also doesn't. If you run an enchantment deck, that is. Fetch out several Paradox Hazes, and on your 5 upkeeps search out things like Form of the Dragon, Ivory Mask, Priviliged Positions, Genju of the Realms, and other useful, powerful, enchantments.

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-16, 03:50 PM

No, Enduring Ideal also doesn't. If you run an enchantment deck, that is. Fetch out several Paradox Hazes, and on your 5 upkeeps search out things like Form of the Dragon, Ivory Mask, Priviliged Positions, Genju of the Realms, and other useful, powerful, enchantments.

You left out a couple of the best lockdown enchantments - Solitary Confinement and Dovescape.

I remember having an Enduring Ideal deck for PbP play on the old WotC forums. This was before I knew what the good enchantments to get were, so I would get Honden of Seeing Winds when I first cast it, then get Words of Worship on the first upkeep to stablize, then get more Hondens and Words. That deck also had one of my best starts ever; it went like this:
Turn 1 - land, Birds of Paradise.
Turn 2 - land, Birds, 2*Llanowar Elves.
Turn 3 - land, Enduring Ideal.

tgva8889

2011-06-16, 04:26 PM

Wow, thanks for all of this advice.

Not at all! I'm glad someone new has shown an interest in Commander! :smallsmile:

I can definitely see myself adding more nonbasic lands (aside from some of the better fetch lands), and also replacing Go for the Throat and Bone Splinters with bigger, better board wipes (I should be able to procure Plague Wind and/or Reiver Demon with little difficulty). One thing I greatly enjoy about this deck, is that I can wipe the board simply by sacrificing whatever I have with Savra, Grave Pact, or Butcher of Malakir in play.

Well, if you choose to play fewer nonbasics, there are some cool lands that still work well. Terrain Generator (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189256) and Thawing Glaciers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159106), for example, are nice, and if you have a ton of basics, they're pretty awesome. If you also switch to snow lands, Scrying Sheets (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=121204) provides even more bonus!

I should correct myself. Go For The Throat is far from terrible. It's not amazing (I mean, when you can play Shriekmaw, Bone Shredder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209123), Faceless Butcher (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=108840), and more...), but it is a good card to at least have the option of playing. That said, there are better.

You may not need nearly as many board wipes as I suggested. I mean, I have a White deck, so I play like 10 in one deck, but that's really up to you. Board Wipes are much better in terms of value than single-target removal in general.

My reasoning behind lots of tiny creatures is hopefully having a creature advantage, mass sacrificing into an easy outlet (this is why I like Bloodthrone, Aristocrat, etc.), and swinging in hard. I do need some source of significant card advantage to work for that, though, and Greater Good seems to be perfect for that :smallbiggrin:

The thing is, how large do you expect a Bloodthrone or Aristocrat to be? It won't be that much larger than Symbiotic Wurm or Penumbra Wurm or Woodfall Primus or Reiver Demon or Lord of the Pit or... whatever. There are too many to suggest. And you'll be suffering severe card disadvantage from them, which is even more compounded by the fact that you're playing against more players. Unless you sacrifice a lot of tokens, which you don't really quite have the way to generate yet. There are better sacrifice outlets if all you want is a sacrifice outlet. Tiny creatures in EDH should be doing something really cool and useful (like Eternal Witness), otherwise it's generally better to go bigger. I mean, Bloodthrone Vampire is all well and good, but if I'm gonna toss my guys into a larger one I'm doing it with Fallen Angel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247150) or Mortivore (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247143) or something sweet like that.

As far as token production goes, the best source of that I have currently is Creakwood Liege (which I can get with Fleshwrither). Golgari Germanation and Ooze Garden also work somewhat at token generators, to an extent (since in an ideal situation, they'll net me creature advantage). I'm not entirely sure about Worm Harvest, seeing as I don't know how many lands I'll be putting into the graveyard (even with more sac-lands). If it turns out that I have more, that'll definitely be making it in.

The thing about Worm Harvest is 1) Only G/B decks can play it and I've been wondering if it's good and 2) If you have discard outlets or pretty much any way to toss excess lands in the 'yard, it can turn all your lands into a large number of worms (even just 4 is pretty good, since they're Green/Black tokens), which you can then use to fuel sacrifice shenanigans. Worth a try. Probably not amazing, though. I just like the card. :smallbiggrin:

A lot of the sacrifice outlets you recommended me seem great (<3 Malevolent Awakening), but I'm not sure I'll be able to get my hands on them. As far as sacrifice outlets go, I think I'll keep the basic structure I have now, and be on the lookout for something better.

My best suggestion is to play a lot, see what you like and what isn't pulling its weight. Your play group may not be like mine, and we may have different experiences with the same cards.

So, I decided to take out some of the more underwhelming 1 and 2 drops, and a couple of the "dead weight" creatures that I only had in there for their green/black status. I ended up adding many of the larger drops that were recommended, as well as some better board wipes.

I do suggest that if you're going to up the curve, you play more lands. I worry that your land count won't be enough to cast the awesome spells you just added, and as you don't have that much real acceleration, I'm not sure you'll have enough. For reference, my Sedris EDH deck plays 40 lands and 10 cards that either make mana or find more lands, as well as I think 8-10 cards that draw additional cards, and I will run into games where my mana stops at 7 for many turns. The thing about EDH is that you should always have at least something to do with your mana (cast your General), so it's not that terrible to have too many lands. A lot of your spells should be kicking butt when you cast them anyways.

I'd like to thank you again for the amazing advice. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to look my deck over, and it's looking a lot better now.

Can't wait to try this out :smallsmile:

Go forth and destroy! Hope you enjoy Commander, it's definitely a fun format.

Also! Gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Default.aspx) is a great tool. I used it to find most of the cards I suggested. I definitely suggest taking a look if you're looking to vamp up your deck. There are tons of utility creatures I didn't even get to suggest that you might find uses for.

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-16, 04:36 PM

Silviya

2011-06-16, 05:07 PM

Speaking of EDH, do any of you have any advice on how to cut down EDH decks to the right size? I'm working on a B/W EDH deck with Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter as the general, and it currently has 83 non-land cards. Are there any tricks to cutting cards that'll make it easier?

Also, have any of you seen the prices that Starcitygames is charging for EDH singles? I personally think that some of them are a bit high. And interestingly enough, when I added up the prices of the cards in each deck (including the non EDH only cards, but not including cards worth under $1.00), Political Puppets turned out to have the most valuable cards in it, not Devour for Power. Chaos Warp and Flutterstorm are both priced at $20.00, and they're in Political Puppets. I have no how accurate the added up prices I got were, but Political Puppets beat Devour for Power by about $23.00.

tgva8889

2011-06-16, 05:29 PM

tvga: What do you think would be a good and sufficient acceleration package for the U/G/b big stuff deck I mentioned earlier? Here's what I'm looking at:

-Coalition Relic
-Darksteel Ingot
-Simic, Golgari, Dimir Signets
-Spectral Searchlight
-Everflowing Chalice
-Mind Stone
-Dreamstone Hedron
-Sakura-Tribe Elder
-Cultivate
-Kodama's Reach
-Explosive Vegetation
-Deep Reconnaisance
-Rampant Growth
-Oracle of Mul Daya
-Yavimaya Elder
-Wood Elves
-Far Wanderings
-Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
-Reap and Sow
-Solemn Simulacrum
-Expedition Map
-Gilded Lotus

Well, you don't need to go overboard, unless you have lots of ways to spend excess mana. 24 is a lot. That said, none of the cards you have listed are expressly bad mana accelerants. It really depends on a lot of things, like your General, your game plan, what kinds of deck manipulation you have available, and what your "curve" looks like. You are playing Blue, which means you should have good card drawing/selection cards, so your mana should be even better than most decks.

I suggest cutting the ones vulnerable to artifact destruction, like Spectral Searchlight and the Signets, because they'll probably become collateral damage when you need to drop an Oblivion Stone, and you'll wish you just had lands instead. Rampant Growth is still awesome, and if you're playing Duals you can always play other, similar cards like Farseek (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=87970), Nature's Lore (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201840), and Skyshroud Claim (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=22891) (which is awesome). I'm not a fan of Dreamstone Hedron or Gilded Lotus in Green decks because they're worse accelerants than most of the Green land-search cards (they're expensive and prone to being destroyed). Since you're playing Blue you also probably don't need the card draw.

Expedition Map is good only if you have specific lands you're searching for. On the other hand, if you have specific lands you're searching for, it's the best card ever. I still have to find space in Darien, King of Kjeldor's deck for it.

Speaking of EDH, do any of you have any advice on how to cut down EDH decks to the right size? I'm working on a B/W EDH deck with Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter as the general, and it currently has 83 non-land cards. Are there any tricks to cutting cards that'll make it easier?

Well, how is your deck sorted? It's best to sort by card function, so that you can see whether you have, for example, too many counterspells or Wraths or whatnot, rather than just by Creatures and Non-Creature Spells and Lands. From there, it just comes down to making the painful decision to cut cards and going with the flow. It really is the hardest part of the game. It's why I prefer playing fewer colors in EDH, personally. I may be able to provide suggestions if you can provide a list of cards on the chopping block. There are definitely cards you should never ever cut from a list (like Debtor's Knell in BW). Take out the 20 or so of those cards and put up a list of cards you're thinking of cutting and I think some people here can give you a hand.

Top_Hat

2011-06-16, 05:36 PM

snip

My personal preference would be to use the green stuff over all the artifact ramp (except maybe expedition map, which can search up answers like Phyrexian Tower and Dustbowl) because if somebody plays boardsweepers like Planar Cleansing or Oblivion Stone, you will be glad that they don't hit your manabase. In a BUG deck, I would consider Perilous Forays because it is ramp and a sacrifice outlet. In any green deck I would say that Oracle of Mul Daya is almost an auto-include and you should give it some serious consideration.

snip
While the Political Puppets deck may have the most expensive singles right now, I think that Chaos Warp and Flutterstorm will fall in value soon after the decks are released. These two cards are worth a lot right now because they have potential applications in Legacy, but I don't see them being good enough to see much play. Since WotC is planning on selling a bunch of these Commander decks I imagine that the price of those rares will drop to something like $5 or $10 soon enough.

If you are looking to get the most value out of your purchase, I would suggest the Black/Blue/Green deck because it seems to have quite a few Commander staples like Solemn Simulacrum(roboJens) and Eternal Witness.

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-16, 05:39 PM

Well, you don't need to go overboard, unless you have lots of ways to spend excess mana. 24 is a lot. That said, none of the cards you have listed are expressly bad mana accelerants. It really depends on a lot of things, like your General, your game plan, what kinds of deck manipulation you have available, and what your "curve" looks like. You are playing Blue, which means you should have good card drawing/selection cards, so your mana should be even better than most decks.

As I mentioned a few posts back, this deck's going to be focused even more on big spells than most EDH decks. General will probably be Damia, Sage of Stone.

I suggest cutting the ones vulnerable to artifact destruction, like Spectral Searchlight and the Signets, because they'll probably become collateral damage when you need to drop an Oblivion Stone, and you'll wish you just had lands instead.

That's a good point, especially since I'll probably be playing more sweepers in this deck, especially if I can find a Deed.

Rampant Growth is still awesome, and if you're playing Duals you can always play other, similar cards like Farseek (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=87970), Nature's Lore (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201840), and Skyshroud Claim (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=22891) (which is awesome).

Forgot about those latter two, thanks for reminding me. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not a fan of Dreamstone Hedron or Gilded Lotus in Green decks because they're worse accelerants than most of the Green land-search cards (they're expensive and prone to being destroyed). Since you're playing Blue you also probably don't need the card draw.

Gotcha. Gilded Lotus has been amazing for me in my Jhoira deck, but you have a point about the green cards filling that role.

Expedition Map is good only if you have specific lands you're searching for. On the other hand, if you have specific lands you're searching for, it's the best card ever. I still have to find space in Darien, King of Kjeldor's deck for it.

Oh, that's definitely the plan - in my Jhoira deck, it pretty much just fixes mana or gets Mystifying Maze, which is amazingly useful (Especially against my friend's Kresh deck.) Here...hopefully, I'll have Cabal Coffers/Urborg to fetch, at the very least.

EDIT:

In a BUG deck, I would consider Perilous Forays because it is ramp and a sacrifice outlet. In any green deck I would say that Oracle of Mul Daya is almost an auto-include and you should give it some serious consideration.

Not going to put Perilous Forays in, I won't have enough to sac to it. I mean, a friend of mine had it in a Savra deck and it still wasn't useful enough to stay in. Oracle will almost definitely be in, though.

tgva8889

2011-06-16, 05:51 PM

I dunno how good Damia and lots of Big spells will be... It'll be harder to empty your hand. But I'm interested to see what you find out!

Suedars

2011-06-16, 05:53 PM

I dunno how good Damia and lots of Big spells will be... It'll be harder to empty your hand. But I'm interested to see what you find out!

Yeah, big mana is fine in Damia, but you want to be casting a ton of cheap efficient spells, not big splashy ones.

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-16, 06:02 PM

Well, Damia was just an idea 'cause she seemed more interesting than The Mimeoplasm or Vorosh.

Penguinizer

2011-06-16, 07:01 PM

With what I'm building for, I'll go with Mimeoplasm. It seems great with the e-animator-ish theme. It's also helping that I'm adding the ooze combo just in case.

Silviya

2011-06-16, 07:02 PM

Well, how is your deck sorted? It's best to sort by card function, so that you can see whether you have, for example, too many counterspells or Wraths or whatnot, rather than just by Creatures and Non-Creature Spells and Lands. From there, it just comes down to making the painful decision to cut cards and going with the flow. It really is the hardest part of the game. It's why I prefer playing fewer colors in EDH, personally. I may be able to provide suggestions if you can provide a list of cards on the chopping block. There are definitely cards you should never ever cut from a list (like Debtor's Knell in BW). Take out the 20 or so of those cards and put up a list of cards you're thinking of cutting and I think some people here can give you a hand.

I currently have my deck sorted into Creatures, Removal, Reanimators, Tutors, Wraths, Other Spells, Planeswalkers, Artifacts and Enchantment, Equipment and Auras, and Land.
I can't really come up with a short list of cards to possibly cut, so I'll just post the entire decklist:

General:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=236487)

30x Creatures:
Celestial Force (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=228257)
Dread Cacodemon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=228228)
Souls of the Faultless (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97231)
Ghost Council of Orzhova (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96908)
Angel of Despair (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247275)
Agent of Masks (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96892)
Orzhov Guildmage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247284)
Vampire Nighthawk (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247552)
Felidar Soveriegn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185743)
Chancellor of the Dross (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=218020)
Transcenent Master (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194917)
Wurmcoil Engine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207875)
Twillight Shepherd (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197034)
Sunblast Angel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=215111)
Reya Dawnbringer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=196998)
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214352)
Sheoldred, Whispering One (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214382)
Massacre Wurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214044)
Avatar of Woe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247520)
Reiver Demon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247339)
Royal Assassin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205233)
It That Betrays (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198171)
Stoneforge Mystic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198383)
Sanguin Praetor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97190)
Butcher of Malakir (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247537)
Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=84359)
Batterskull (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=233055)

12x Removal:
Mortify (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247282)
Unmake (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220574)
Go for the Throat (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=213799)
Doom Blade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247322)
Terror (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202486)
Hex (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247382)
Rend Flesh (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=75259)
Eyeblight's Ending (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139449)
Journey to Nowhere (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247547)
Seize the Soul (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96888)
Oblivion Ring (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247156)
Sword to Plowshares (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202462)

7x Reanimators:
Grim Harvest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122114)
Dread Return (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116721)
Rise From the Grave (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247325)
Zombify (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220580)
Reanimate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220576)
Stir the Grave (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74643)
Beacon of Unrest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220482)
Morbid Plunder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222863)

5x Tutors:
Diabolic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247321)
Steelshaper's Gift (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51078)
Idyllic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152938)
Demonic Collusion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=118872)
Beseach the Queen (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205399)

2x Wraths:
Phyrexian Rebirth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214048)
Plague Wind (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129679)

9x Other Spells:
Alliance of Arms (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=228218)
Syphon Flesh (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205375)
Curse of the Cabal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=111049)
Praetor's Grasp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=218050)
Profane Command (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205397)
Exsanguinate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=210235)
Blood Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205054)
Blood Tribute (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=170995)
Storm Herd (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247287)

9x Artifacts and Enchantments:
Martyr's Bond (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=236481)
Debtor's Knell (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97193)
Grave Pact (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247142)
True Conviction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208262)
Norn's Annex (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=233050)
Ghostly Prison (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247173)
Well of Lost Dreams (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48993)
Oblivion Stone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247338)
Sol Ring (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247533)

5x Auras and Equipment:
Champion's Helm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=233200)
Sword of Vengeance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205044)
Sword of Light and Shadow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=47453)
Lightning Greaves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247337)
Whispersilk Cloak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=206342)

2x Planeswalkers:
Elspeth Tirel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=212241)
Elspeth, Knight Errant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=217825)

So, there are 82 non-land cards in total. There are a few cards that I don't have that I would put in the deck if I had them (Divinity of Pride, Serra Ascendant, Serra Avatar, Dreathbringer Liege, and Eternal Dragon are a few). I also feel it might need more removal and wraths, but adding more cards would be pretty counterproductive . . . .

I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds cutting cards to be extremely difficult. The way I build EDH decks basically goes like this: Find an awesome general I want to build a deck around. Spend hours searching Gatherer for cards to put in the deck, and end up with a list of 100 to 150 non-land cards, which I'm able to fairly quickly cut down to around 90. Then spend the next few weeks slowly and painfully cutting the deck down to 60 non-land cards, then assembe the deck. This is how it works every single time.

While the Political Puppets deck may have the most expensive singles right now, I think that Chaos Warp and Flutterstorm will fall in value soon after the decks are released. These two cards are worth a lot right now because they have potential applications in Legacy, but I don't see them being good enough to see much play. Since WotC is planning on selling a bunch of these Commander decks I imagine that the price of those rares will drop to something like $5 or $10 soon enough.

If you are looking to get the most value out of your purchase, I would suggest the Black/Blue/Green deck because it seems to have quite a few Commander staples like Solemn Simulacrum(roboJens) and Eternal Witness.

Yeah, I agree with you about the prices of the singles going down, particularly the prices of the various $20 cards. Overall value of the decks doesn't particularly matter to me, I was just curious about how much the singles in each of the decks were worth. I already bought the boxed set of all the decks, as well (for $125! I'm so glad I bought it right when it went on preorder). I'm currently trying to figure out which deck to chose for the Launch Party. I'm thinking either Political Puppets or Heavenly Inferno, because they look like the most fun.

tgva8889

2011-06-16, 09:29 PM

I currently have my deck sorted into Creatures, Removal, Reanimators, Tutors, Wraths, Other Spells, Planeswalkers, Artifacts and Enchantment, Equipment and Auras, and Land.
I can't really come up with a short list of cards to possibly cut, so I'll just post the entire decklist:

*snip*

So, there are 82 non-land cards in total. There are a few cards that I don't have that I would put in the deck if I had them (Divinity of Pride, Serra Ascendant, Serra Avatar, Dreathbringer Liege, and Eternal Dragon are a few). I also feel it might need more removal and wraths, but adding more cards would be pretty counterproductive . . . .

I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds cutting cards to be extremely difficult. The way I build EDH decks basically goes like this: Find an awesome general I want to build a deck around. Spend hours searching Gatherer for cards to put in the deck, and end up with a list of 100 to 150 non-land cards, which I'm able to fairly quickly cut down to around 90. Then spend the next few weeks slowly and painfully cutting the deck down to 60 non-land cards, then assembe the deck. This is how it works every single time.

Some thoughts to help your organization:
"Creatures" is a really broad organizational method. This is where you get to the nitty gritty. Dread Cacodemon, Reiver Demon, Sunblast Angel, Massacre Wurm and Elesh Norn can fall into the "Wraths" category, for example. Let's move them there. Angel of Despair, Avatar of Woe, and Royal Assassin are "Removal" cards, so let's move them to that category. Just that alone more accurately represents the fact that no, you don't need more Wraths, and wow do you have a lot of single-target creature removal (most of which is not also creatures, which is not the best). Let's finish by rearranging some other cards and changing your categories a little bit...

General:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=236487)

15x Life Gain:
Celestial Force (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=228257)
Souls of the Faultless (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97231)
Ghost Council of Orzhova (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96908)
Agent of Masks (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96892)
Orzhov Guildmage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247284)
Vampire Nighthawk (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247552)
Felidar Soveriegn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185743)
Chancellor of the Dross (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=218020)
Transcenent Master (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194917)
Wurmcoil Engine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207875)
Batterskull (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=233055)
Exsanguinate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=210235)
Blood Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205054)
Blood Tribute (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=170995)
True Conviction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208262)

4x Stuff that makes my opponent sacrifice:
It That Betrays (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198171)
Butcher of Malakir (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247537)
Martyr's Bond (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=236481)
Grave Pact (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247142)

3x Deterrents:
Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=84359)
Norn's Annex (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=233050)
Ghostly Prison (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247173)

17x Removal:
Mortify (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247282)
Unmake (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220574)
Go for the Throat (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=213799)
Doom Blade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247322)
Terror (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202486)
Hex (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247382)
Rend Flesh (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=75259)
Eyeblight's Ending (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139449)
Journey to Nowhere (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247547)
Seize the Soul (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96888)
Oblivion Ring (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247156)
Sword to Plowshares (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202462)
Angel of Despair (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247275)
Royal Assassin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205233)
Avatar of Woe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247520)
Curse of the Cabal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=111049)
Profane Command (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205397)

12x Reanimators:
Grim Harvest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122114)
Dread Return (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116721)
Rise From the Grave (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247325)
Zombify (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220580)
Reanimate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220576)
Stir the Grave (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74643)
Beacon of Unrest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220482)
Morbid Plunder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222863)
Twillight Shepherd (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197034)
Reya Dawnbringer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=196998)
Sheoldred, Whispering One (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214382)
Debtor's Knell (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97193)
Sword of Light and Shadow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=47453)

7x Tutors:
Diabolic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247321)
Steelshaper's Gift (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51078)
Idyllic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152938)
Demonic Collusion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=118872)
Beseach the Queen (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205399)
Stoneforge Mystic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198383)
Praetor's Grasp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=218050)

9x Wraths:
Phyrexian Rebirth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214048)
Plague Wind (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129679)
Dread Cacodemon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=228228)
Sunblast Angel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=215111)
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214352)
Massacre Wurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214044)
Reiver Demon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247339)
Sanguin Praetor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97190)
Oblivion Stone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247338)

5x Makes Dudes:
Alliance of Arms (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=228218)
Syphon Flesh (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205375)
Storm Herd (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247287)
Elspeth Tirel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=212241)
Elspeth, Knight Errant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=217825)

1x Card Drawing/Manipulation
Well of Lost Dreams (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48993)

1x Mana:
Sol Ring (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247533)

4x Auras and Equipment:
Champion's Helm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=233200)
Sworf of Vengeance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205044)
Lightning Greaves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247337)
Whispersilk Cloak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=206342)

I can now tell you immediately several glaring problems with your list:
1) There's only 1 card that manipulates your deck and only 1 card that helps your mana development. This is absolutely awful. You definitely want to be playing some more mana development and card drawing/deck manipulation cards. Sensei's Divining Top (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194972) is good for a reason, but you're Black. You have some of the best options for card drawing in the game. May I suggest Phyrexian Arena (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209132)? How about Necropotence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194977)? Maybe Greed (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25642)? Ambition's Cost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45313)? Graveborn Muse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=135256)?Moriok Replica (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209037)? Promise of Power (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197026)? There are even more options if you care to look. As for mana, well, you can't go wrong with Eternal Dragon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=44398), Weathered Wayfarer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83311), Solemn Simulacrum (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247340), Pilgrim's Eye (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198367), and Twisted Abomination (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220564). And that's just a bunch of creatures!

2) You have a lot of removal. I don't think any of my decks play that much removal, and I have 3 decks, 1 of which is 5-color and 1 of which is Grixis. It's especially jarring that the large majority of it is creature removal, generally in Instant form. Creatures would be better, as you could abuse them with your reanimation, sacrifice them for effect to your General, and many other things you can do with creatures but not with Instants. Especially in this deck. Also, 17 is too many anyways, in my opinion, especially when you have some appearing elsewhere, so you should cut down. Though I notice you have very few answers to Artifacts and Enchantments, and no General answers...

3) The creature pumps and equipment subtheme feels totally out of place. I mean, I get that you could just kill them with Vish, but is that what you're trying to do? Maybe you should focus on that instead of gaining life (Seriously, 15 cards? Most of which are otherwise nothing more than huge guys?). I don't know. You should really decide what you want your deck to do. That will help you cut down significantly on cards.

4) The entire Deterrents section seems awful. You really don't need cards like this. Also, Norn's Annex and Ghostly Prison seem totally out of place in this deck. They don't fit any of the themes you seem to be going after and they aren't particularly powerful (taxing isn't that great in EDH).

There's more to be said, but I think the key I've found is that you have no idea what you want your deck to do. An EDH deck functions best when it isn't just a pile of powerful cards. It functions best when it is designed to do something specific. Figure out what specific thing you want your deck to be doing, and you should find that there are several cards that just aren't very good at getting you there.

Eon

2011-06-16, 10:19 PM

Gee, all this talk about EDH... Almost makes me think I should try it... I just doubt I'll find someone I know that plays nearby... :smallfrown:

A deck I'm playing around with... :smallsmile:
Seems like it works... 2 minutes later you'll point out it's absolutely terrible and all, but hey... I like it :smalltongue:

Bandil makes a multicolored deck! The world is ending! :smalleek:

edit: I know it's a little more than 60 cards...
2x Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
Planeswalkers:
2x Ajani Vengeant

Creatures:
2x Balefire Liege
2x Belligerent Hatchling
4x Boros Recruit
4x Boros Signet
4x Boros Swiftblade
4x Cerodon Yearling
2x Firemane Angel

4x Hearthfire Hobgoblin
4x Hobgoblin Dragoon
2x Nobilis of War
4x Skyknight Legionnaire

Enchantments:
4x Glory of Warfare
Artifacts:
4x Boros Signet

Lands:
4x Boros Garrison
8x Mountain
8x Plains

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-16, 10:35 PM

Reposting this from the last page:

For the U/r deck I'm looking to make, I'll have Niv-Mizzet (as the general), Curiosity, and Ophidian Eye to combo with him. I'll have Vesuvan Shapeshifter and Brine Elemental for the Pickles lock. I'll have Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch, Splinter Twin, and Kiki-Jiki for that combo. Any other notable, simple combos I should put in?

Also, I'm mentally fooling around with a Standard Podcaster list, similar to what Kenny Oberg played in Block at Nagoya. Obviously, the core will be 4 Grand Architect and 4 Birthing Pod. I'll have 4 Preordain, naturally; a playset of Treasure Mages; and a playset of Phyrexian Metamorphs. I'm thinking some number of Trinket Mages too, with Brittle Effigy, Chimeric Mass, possibly Elixir of Immortality, and possibly Everflowing Chalice as targets. (Hex Parasite might be good too, come to think of it)

For the big things, I'm thinking 1 Mindslaver, 1-2 Wurmcoil Engine, 1 Myr Battlesphere, possibly 1 Contagion Engine, and 1 Spine of Ish Sah to fetch.

I'd probably want some 4 drops in there, since there'll be a profusion of 3's. Metamorph might be enough, but I'm also thinking about Molten-Tail Masticore and Lodestone Golem.

How does all of this sound?

Suedars

2011-06-16, 10:38 PM

Gee, all this talk about EDH... Almost makes me think I should try it... I just doubt I'll find someone I know that plays nearby... :smallfrown:

Do you have a local store? Show up this Saturday for the Commander release parties.

Eon

2011-06-16, 10:41 PM

Do you have a local store? Show up this Saturday for the Commander release parties.

One that I'm familiar with... I don't see many people ever show up there so I don't know... :smallsigh:

Suedars

2011-06-16, 10:43 PM

Give them a call and ask if they're holding an event/expect a crowd.

Eon

2011-06-16, 10:46 PM

Give them a call and ask if they're holding an event/expect a crowd.

Well... I'm also kinda busy on Saturday... So that makes it a little iffy. I might give'em a call and inquire when it is, see if I have time... :smallsigh:

Bucky

2011-06-16, 10:52 PM

For the big things, I'm thinking 1 Mindslaver, 1-2 Wurmcoil Engine, 1 Myr Battlesphere, possibly 1 Contagion Engine, and 1 Spine of Ish Sah to fetch.

Don't forget Moltensteel Dragon! You can fetch it with Treasure Mage and immediately curve into it.

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-16, 11:01 PM

Don't forget Moltensteel Dragon! You can fetch it with Treasure Mage and immediately curve into it.

...Ooh, that would be a delicious idea. *cackles*

Foeofthelance

2011-06-16, 11:02 PM

My knew EDH deck has drawn some hate....

My general is Arcum Dagsson (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/27.html), and I usually use him to fetch Darksteel Forge (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Darksteel+Forge), then Myr Incubator (http://magiccards.info/query?q=myr+incubator&v=card&s=cname). After I did that once (and ended up dying first, mind you), I played a second game. I never fetched the Myr Incubator (http://magiccards.info/query?q=myr+incubator&v=card&s=cname) until late in the game, instead getting Darksteel Forge (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Darksteel+Forge), Mycosynth Lattice (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Mycosynth+Lattice), Omen Machine (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Omen+Machine&v=card&s=cname), and Finally Timesifter (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Timesifter&v=card&s=cname).

Timesifter (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Timesifter&v=card&s=cname) seemed really fun to me, and in fact it was fun and hilarious to most of us, but two players got really upset and bitchy.

Is that really that bad, considering one of the players who got bitchy spends **** tons of money on cards and has all uber tournament grade decks?

Yeah, I admit your deck would draw a lot of grief in my play circle. Not necessarily for the chaos, we like chaos. I've seen games where a copy of Memnarch gets passed around like the town bike, going to a new player every turn just because of ridiculous number of effect copiers and creature steals. (And trying to figure out who he went back to when people died was even more entertaining.) It would be the more the fact that your general is the creature form of Tinker, combined with Darksteel Forge (indestructible drives us nuts. We like smashing things) combined with having to sit through Timesifters? It becomes less fun when you have to sit there for thirty minutes waiting for your turn to finally come back around just because of some bad luck. At that point it becomes time to scoop and reset.

Also, my current Commander Deck:

Commander - Child of New Alara (WUBRG)

Lands (35)
3x Plains
3x Islands
3x Swamps
3x Mountains
3x Forests
Mosswort Bridge
Crumbling Necropolis
Savage Lands
Raging Ravine
Exotic Orchard
Seachrome Coast
Evolving Wilds
Terramorphic Expanse
Seijir refuge
Graypelt Refuge
Akoum Refuge
Irrigation Ditch
Tinder Farm
Ancient Spring
Sulfur Vent
Geothermal Crevice
Unstable Frontier
Ancient ziggurat
Shimmering Grotto
Strip Mine

Creatures (29)
Sheoldred, the Whispering One
Lovisa Coldeyes
Lorthos, the Tidemaker
Elvish Piper
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper
Experiment Kraj
Jenara, Asura of War
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
Chainer, Dementia Master
Cho-Manno, Revolutionary
Kiku, Night's Flower
Anowon, the Ruin Sage
Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
Thraximundar
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Birds of Paradise
Rorix Bladewing
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Malfegor
Bringer of the Red Dawn
Thriss, Nantuko Primus
Ascendent Evincar
Maelstrom Archangel
Tsabo Tavoc
Savra, Queen of the Golgari
Rakka Mar
Kresh, the Bloodbraided

Planeswalkers (3)
Chandra Nalaar
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Ajani Goldmane

Others (32)
Nevinyrral's Disk
Juntu Stakes
Storage Matrix
Barrin's Spite
Psychic Battle
Indestructibility
Death or Glory
Balancing Act
Spirit of Resistance
Prophetic Prism
Semblance Anvil
Urza's Bauble
Proteus Staff
Chromatic Sphere
Legacy Weapon
Kaleidostone
Maelstrom Nexus
Finest Hour
Armillary Sphere
World at War
Gruul Signet
Dimir Signet
Thran Dynamo
Hunting Grounds
Global Ruin
Phyrexian Rebirth
Mishra's Bauble
Expedition Map
Obelisk of Bant
Obelisk of Grixis
Obelisk of Jund
Obelisk of Naya

It started out as a pure Legends deck, but I didn't have quite enough cards to sustain the idea, and I needed a lot of mana fixers in the artifact spot. On the other hand, it is always kind of fun to see people's eyes bug out when they're looking at Lorthos the Tidemaker next to Sheoldred, and of course Tsabo Tavoc just makes life fun when you can out and out assassinate Generals. I'm considering moving to a pure flavor based deck, using nothing but Legends, Planeswalkers, and their associated cards. For example, Chandra Nalaar, Chandra's Outrage, Chandra's Spitfire or Melira, Sylvok Outcast and Melira's Keepers. In that case I'll probably wait till 2012 comes out so that the 2011 prices drop and I can pick up the support staff for Gideon and Sorin.

Frankelshtein

2011-06-16, 11:42 PM

Quick question: How will the release of the Commander decks affect the price of the cards the contain, if at all? There are a couple of cards I want for my Commander deck (Graaaaave Paaaaaaact, also Attrition) that are either a tad on the expensive side or no one has them. I was going to sell some cards for credit, but I don't want to commit to buying at a higher price if it'll drop in a couple of days.

tgva8889

2011-06-17, 12:26 AM

Alternatively, you could buy a Commander deck. :smalltongue:

No one knows. Probably reduce them, as currently some of the Commander decks currently contain cards that in total cost more than the cost of the decks themselves.

Silviya

2011-06-17, 12:31 AM

*snip*

Thanks for all the advice!

You're right about the whole not really knowing what the deck should do thing. I had been considering making a W/B EDH deck for a while, but I didn't like any of the W/B legendaries. Then the Commander stuff came out and I saw the new W/B general. I basically threw together a bunch of cards of those colors, thinking something along the lines of "Oh, white and black have a lot of removal. And Wraths! And reanimators!" So yeah, the deck really isn't fully figured out.

And wow I have a lot of lifegain stuff. That's a much more useful way to sort things. The massive amounts of removal is there because the other people in my playgroup that I used to play with a lot had very big creature heavy decks, but I'm not playing with them so much anymore, so cutting some of the removal would be a good idea.

Hmm. Norn's Annex and Ghostly Prison were in the deck because I've found them to be very good in multiplayer games because no one wants to attack me when they're out, but now that I think about it they would be pretty bad in EDH, especially considering I'm not fighting super creature heavy decks anymore.

Yes, the idea was to kill them with Vish Kal. Equip Vish Kal with Whispersilk Cloak or one of the other things that gives him hexproof/shroud (though the cloak is ideal because it makes him unblockable), build up tons of +1/+1 counters on him, and attack, hopefully gaining enough life off of his lifelink ability to stay alive. Another thing I wanted to do with Vish Kal is sacrifice things to him while I have Martyr's Bond or Grave Pact out, to make my opponents sacrifice stuff.

Again, thanks for the advice, it helps a lot.

Another EDH related question: Is Gemstone Array (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50150) any good in EDH? It is a mana battery, and it can give you something to do with your left over mana, but I've never seen it in an EDH deck. How good are mana batteries in EDH?
Along similar lines, how good are Scute Mob (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180455) and Dragonmaster Outcast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197854) in EDH? Are they good because EDH games last longer, so you can get the required amount of land easier, or are they bad because they're so easily killed (or at least at first, in the case of Scute Mob)?

Frankelshtien: I think the release of the Commander decks will effect some card prices, but not others. The prices of cards that already have a lot of copies in existence and are only being printed in one commander deck probably won't decrease in price much, but the rarer cards that are being reprinted may go down in price. EDH will probably make some of the older cards easier to find (Attrition, for example. I did a quick search and most online places are selling it for about $1.00, but it could be hard to find because it's an old card. It will probably become easier to find with the new printing). Sol Ring is the card I think is going down in price the most. It was at $15.00, now I'm seeing places selling the EDH version for $8.00.

tgva8889

2011-06-17, 12:55 AM

Not a problem at all! By the way, I just counted again, there's actually 13 Reanimators. Not like that's a bad thing, but I should be correct anyways. I learned that sorting method from a friend of mine and it is so helpful. It's much more useful to be able to see the types of effects you have available.

Also, I'm not against single-target removal, just the Instant kind. Creatures, those I can get on board with. Nekrataal? Faceless Butcher? Sign me up! You should definitely put some of those kinds of cards in your deck, by the way, as you're playing a lot of creature reuse. Random creatures are way more useful to you than random Terrors. May as well get both out of the bargin.

The problem with taxing in EDH is that you don't need to stave off early pressure (when cards like Ghostly Prison really shine) because most people aren't dealing significant damage to you early on. With a starting life total of 40, the only early damage you should be taking is from cheaper Generals and random 2/2s. It does add up eventually, but you can usually hold off attacks by playing a couple early drops like Solemn Simulacrum (4 is pretty early in EDH, really) and be fine. Later on, the taxing won't really matter because players will be more likely to have the 2 extra mana to smash you with their 6/6es. Norn's Annex is absolutely awful because your opponents can just Shock themselves to get around it. That said, they still have their uses, I just don't think you need them, what with your General that kills target creature very dead and your large amounts of removal and life gain.

If you want to focus on Grave Pacting and General Damage, I suggest focusing your deck on that aspect. Cut some of the random dudes that just gain life (but not Wurmcoil Engine because he's so good with Vish) and go beatdown. There's plenty of awesome cards to go for the kill with in White/Black. Anything that makes a lot of tokens is sweet for you, especially if they're bigger. Captain of the Watch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191070), for example, is a sick 9 more counters on your Vish. Cloudgoat Ranger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139664) is a nice 8. Grave Titan (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205012) is bonkers. Hatred (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=6104) is, of course, the bomb. It helps to know what you're trying to do. You could have been going for a life gain deck (although why you would have chosen Vish Kal in that case is kinda puzzling, as Ghost Council is probably better).

On your questions in general, Gemstone Array is generally terrible because 1) There are better ways to use your mana, and 2) Being an artifact is pretty high-risk. If it costs 4, it better do something better than cost me mana to make more mana. On the 1/1s, they're not terrible (curves do exist in Commander) but my problem with Scute Mob is that all he does is attack and block. I want my creatures to do something more. Dragonmaster Outcast I just haven't found a place for. Seems good, just hasn't fit into any of the decks I want to build.

Suedars

2011-06-17, 01:08 AM

I actually really hate Faceless Butcher in EDH. With how many sweepers there are in the format, it's going to die sooner rather than later, and whatever threat you put under it will be the first thing down once the board resets. If it were a big enough body to be relevant it might be fine, since then it's a guy that stalls one of their creatures for a while, but as is it's just bad 1 for 1 removal. It's better as a very delayed blink for your own guys than removal for your opponents' threats.

If you have lots of equipment or other ways to make its body relevant it's fine though.

tgva8889

2011-06-17, 01:12 AM

Well... I like it but not for most decks. It's just an example of the kind of card you want to play. Also, really good with sacrifice effects. Just saying.

I like it because I used to to turn my opponent's Bribery against them. Yeah, turns out my Ulamog wanted to be on my side of the table. He's in my Sedris, the Traitor King deck for the interactions with Unearth.

Suedars

2011-06-17, 01:24 AM

Yeah, things like sac effects and Unearth make him good if your deck is built around them, but as a general removal spell I can't stand him.

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-17, 01:31 AM

Oh yeah, before someone else says it:

Nin, the Pain Artist + Swans of Bryn Argoll/Stuffy Doll = Owww...

Silviya

2011-06-17, 01:56 AM

tgva8889:That's a really good point about the creature removal as opposed to instant removal. And I had never thought about Captain of the Watch and Cloudgoat Ranger, but that would work really well in the deck. Grave Titan I had considered, but I currently don't have one. If I get one, though, it'll go in the deck instantly. And Hatred would be amazing.
Something I just thought of for the deck: Would Mimic Vat be any good? Sacrifice a creature to Vish, imprint it on the vat, and then activate the vat every turn and maybe attack with the creature, and then sac it to Vish. Particularly cards like Captain of the Watch and Cloudgoat Ranger.

Oh yeah, before someone else says it:

Nin, the Pain Artist + Swans of Bryn Argoll/Stuffy Doll = Owww...

Speaking of Stuffy Doll related combos, I've always wanted to make a deck with Stuffy Doll + Pariah (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=135248). Just because it would be silly.

tgva8889

2011-06-17, 03:35 AM

Oh yeah, before someone else says it:

Nin, the Pain Artist + Swans of Bryn Argoll/Stuffy Doll = Owww...

Yup. I like Nin because she is sort of like a Spellshaper that turns all your creatures into Braingeysers.

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-17, 03:53 AM

Yup. I like Nin because she is sort of like a Spellshaper that turns all your creatures into Braingeysers.

Indeed. It's even better if said creatures are masochistic. Or otherwise benefit from being hurt. Of course, that's my inner Johnny trying to release dopamine. It's official: Izzet colors are Johnnyriffic. :smalltongue:

I also have a legacyish casual deck that could use some work: I'm curious to see what you guys would recommend for it. You see, I don't often play Red and my black decks tend to be a bit more conservative towards life and resources, but Rakdos looks fun to play. So I probably had some very epic failures here.

Hellfire and the Black Rose

Creatures
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
1x Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
3x Crypt Champion
2x Gobhobbler Rats
2x Ashenmoor Liege
4x Soulbright Flamekin
2x Cinder Shade
2x Kulrath Knight

Enchantments
2x Rage Reflection
2x Fists of the Demigod
2x Anthem of Rakdos

Instants/Sorceries
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Blightning
2x Infernal Tutor
2x Terminate

Artifacts:
2x Quietus Spike

Lands:
4x Badlands
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Rakdos Carnarium
4x Graven Cairns
4x Lavaclaw Reaches

Suedars

2011-06-17, 04:40 AM

Does anyone else find Nin to be extremely jarring flavor-wise? I mean, her ability is definitely UR and makes complete sense, but her name just doesn't fit UR at all. If you told me there was a creature called Nin, the Pain Artist and had me guess her color, I'd never guess UR. B and BR seem much more fitting for that name.

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-17, 04:44 AM

Androgeus

2011-06-17, 04:48 AM

Speaking of Stuffy Doll related combos, I've always wanted to make a deck with Stuffy Doll + Pariah (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=135248). Just because it would be silly.

If you make sure you have some Repercussions (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15216) with Pariah you end up in a game winning loop.

Zocelot

2011-06-17, 01:59 PM

Oh yeah, before someone else says it:

Nin, the Pain Artist + Swans of Bryn Argoll/Stuffy Doll = Owww...

Nin is best as a general, I think. No Swans, but Stuffy Doll and Psychosis Crawler are both a ton of pain. Treachery lets you kill their guy while still drawing the cards, and Dominus of Fealty gives does the same thing every turn.

What combos are available in UR EDH? I've got Slaverlock and Tidespout Tyrant infinite mana, and I'm sure there are tons more, but I'm rather unfamiliar with the format. I don't care if the combos are unfair, cruel, or will get everyone to gang up on you. I just want to try making a very combo-ish Nin deck as a thought exercise.

Silviya

2011-06-17, 02:08 PM

It's official: Izzet colors are Johnnyriffic. :smalltongue:

I agree. I also find those colors really fun becuase of the whole "mad scientist" thing. I've always found enemy colors much more interesting then allied colors, and UR takes the cake for being the most fun and interesting.

If you make sure you have some Repercussions (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15216) with Pariah you end up in a game winning loop.

I had actually never seen that card. Now I think I need to make a R/W casual deck around that combo, with lots of enchantment tutors and ways to stall the game until I get the combo off. It might not win much, but it'll be fun.

Suedars

2011-06-17, 02:10 PM

Penguinizer

2011-06-17, 02:19 PM

So, the order of Commander decks for my LGS is currently MIA. sort of annoyed.

Androgeus

2011-06-17, 02:31 PM

I had actually never seen that card. Now I think I need to make a R/W casual deck around that combo, with lots of enchantment tutors and ways to stall the game until I get the combo off. It might not win much, but it'll be fun.

you can do it mono-red with Pariah's Shield (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83730), but that's probably not the best idea for a combo deck.

Also just found Coalhauler Swine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coalhauler%20Swine), the multi-player version of stuffy doll with out the indestructibility.

tgva8889

2011-06-17, 04:14 PM

If you wanted to abuse Nin, you could also play Indestructible creatures, since you can Fireball them with Nin and just draw a ton of cards. There's also Mogg Maniac (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5120). Also, Psychic Possession (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107254).

Suedars

2011-06-17, 05:05 PM

It looks like some Innistrad cards accidentally got leaked in the hidden files of Duels12: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6882496&postcount=21

Looks like those of us predicting a graveyard block were right. I wonder if this confirms that it'll be the Victorian flavored one previewed in Future Sight. The Cultists, Crows, and Geists sure seem to predict that.

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-17, 05:13 PM

Angelic Destiny and Bloodgift Demon are very cool.

The former can turn a Germ Token into a Serra Angel, for less than Serra Angel actually costs! The latter is Phyrexian Arena on a boltproof body. Heck yeah!

Androgeus

2011-06-17, 06:00 PM

The former can turn a Germ Token into a Serra Angel, for less than Serra Angel actually costs!

Don't forget that you still have to pay for the germ token, so the cheapest you can get(flayer husk) it is the same as Serra Angel

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-17, 06:03 PM

Don't forget that you still have to pay for the germ token, so the cheapest you can get(flayer husk) it is the same as Serra Angel

Yeah, but that also leaves you with an extra artifact on the field. :smallamused: Or a 5/5 version of Serra Angel, if you leave it attached. In any case, my point is that it's cool. :smallsmile:

Gauntlet

2011-06-17, 06:08 PM

It's not quite Serra Angel. The thing gets First Strike rather than Vigilance. However, at some point someone is going to put this on a Hexproof creature, and bad things will happen. It also happens to synergise perfectly with Batterskull.

memnarch

2011-06-17, 06:08 PM

Think you could spoiler those posts? The set isn't even out yet! :smallannoyed:

Fable Wright

2011-06-17, 06:09 PM

Minus the vigilance. It's closer to a Baneslayer on a stick than a Serra Angel.

Stick one on Serra Ascendant for added hilarity...

Suedars

2011-06-17, 06:26 PM

It certainly points toward Scars Block White Weenie/Tempered Steel decks being one of the better decks post rotation. Instant speed removal is going to be an absolute necessity.

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-17, 06:31 PM

Think you could spoiler those posts? The set isn't even out yet! :smallannoyed:

Sorry, fixed.

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-17, 06:34 PM

I approve of graveyard focus, the return of flashback, and Gothic horror themes. Very interested to see what knd of graveyard-related mechanics they've made since Odyssey block.

Suedars

2011-06-17, 06:38 PM

Fable Wright

2011-06-17, 07:14 PM

Well there's the possibility of Delve, though that'll probably only show up at Rare and Mythic since having half a dozen cards in your Draft deck that want you to exile cards from your graveyard probably wouldn't work too well in a gy set.

I don't really think so; it's going to wind up forcing you to allocate resources in your graveyard, though. Your graveyard is now as much a zone as your hand. Also, Nihil Spellbomb is going to get much better.

Zocelot

2011-06-17, 08:54 PM

There's the classic Niv-Mizzet+Curiosity/Ophidian Eye to deal a ton of damage (limited by the number of cards in your deck) and draw most of your deck. Add Kozilek/Ulamog somewhere in your list and a Mind Over Matter out on the table and it goes infinite and produces infinite mana to go with drawing your entire deck.

That's pretty good. Mind's Eye and Temple Bell also combo nicely. Teferi and either Omen Machine or Knowledge Pool also provides a lock (I don't fully understand the Knowledge Pool one, but I hear it's true). Vesuvan Shapeshifter and Brine Elemental is a pretty serious soft lock.

Fable Wright

2011-06-17, 09:03 PM

That's pretty good. Mind's Eye and Temple Bell also combo nicely. Teferi and either Omen Machine or Knowledge Pool also provides a lock (I don't fully understand the Knowledge Pool one, but I hear it's true). Vesuvan Shapeshifter and Brine Elemental is a pretty serious soft lock.

Knowledge pool is a pseudo-lock in itself: After everyone's done casting small spells to get big ones, there's the problem of instants: After you try casting a big spell, someone else is going to steal it with their instants, and you don't really want to give them that... it's a decent lock on the game by itself IMO. Teferi makes it so that you always get the better spells; you cast everything as an instant, while the opponent can only cast as a sorcery. You always steal their big spells, and they can do nothing about it.

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-17, 09:20 PM

That's pretty good. Mind's Eye and Temple Bell also combo nicely. Teferi and either Omen Machine or Knowledge Pool also provides a lock (I don't fully understand the Knowledge Pool one, but I hear it's true). Vesuvan Shapeshifter and Brine Elemental is a pretty serious soft lock.

Both Omen Machine and Knowledge Pool have people playing spells in the middle of the Machine's/Pool's abilities resolution. As this is not a time when you could normally play a sorcery, and can't overrides can, Teferi prevents your opponents from playing spells this way. Thus, it's a lock.

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-17, 09:57 PM

While still planing on my wrath deck, looking through my collection has revealed to me that I also have a lot of spare cards to upgrade the B/G/W commander precon and thus came up with a very quick deck list which I would like you to all fix. Most likely it's meh, but I was looking for it to expand on the token theme of the base theme deck, as well as add a stronger mana-fixing element, some more support for the sacrificial theme as well as a few other things...

Commander:
1x Ghave, Guru of Spores

Creatures (26):
1x Teneb the Harvaster
1x Karador, Ghost Cheiftan
1x Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
1x Chorus of the Conclave
1x Verdeloth the Ancient
1x Nemata, Grove Gurdian
1x Feral Hydra
1x Living Hive
1x Elsh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Juniper Order Ranger
1x Thelonate Hermate
1x Sigil Captian
1x Forgotten Ancient
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Knight of the Requlery
1x Orzhov Pontif
1x Necroplasm
1x Phyrexian Broodlings
1x Spike Feeder
1x Spawnwrithe
1x Yavymaya Elder
1x Skullbriar, the Walking Grave
1x Scavagening Ooze
1x Sakura Tribe Elfer
1x Selensia Evangelical
1x Selensia Guildmage

Planeswalkers (3):
1x Lillina Ves
1x Garuk Wildspeaker
1x Eleispeth, Knight Errant

Enchantments (10):
1x Debtor's Knell
1x Infernal Genesis
1x Doubling Season
1x Mirari's Wake
1x Grave Pact
1x Beastmaster Ascension
1x Fecundity
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Awakening Zone
1x Sylivan Library

Sorceries/Instants (15):
1x Plague Wind
1x Phyrexian Rebirth
1x Saporling Symbiosis
1x Wrath of God
1x Damnation
1x Diabolic Tutor
1x Harrow
1x Growth Spasam
1x Journy of Discovery
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Cultivate
1x Martial Coup
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Rampent Growth
1x Alliance of Arms

Artifacts (6):
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Golgari Signant
1x Orzhov Signan
1x Selensia Signant
1x Sensei's Diving Top
1x Sol Ring

Lands (39):
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
1x Pendlehaven
1x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1x Vesuva
1x Command Tower
1x Temple of the False God
1x Vitu Ghazi, the City Tree
1x City of Brass
1x Forbidden Orchard
1x Rupture Spire
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Lanowar Waste
1x Godless Shrine
1x Caves of Korolis
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Razorverge Thicket
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Orzhov Bassilca
1x Selensia Sanctuary
1x Vivid Marsh
1x Vivid Meadow
1x Vivid Grove
1x Khalni Garden
4x Planes
4x Swamp
5x Forest

So, anybody have advice on how to make this better before I try and build it in real life?

tgva8889

2011-06-17, 11:50 PM

Volos

2011-06-18, 12:48 AM

Immediate suggestion: Sort better. Check my post earlier in this thread where I resorted someone's list of cards for their EDH deck. It's totally useless to sort by card type, because cards of the same type all do different things. That'll really help you look at your deck and see if you need more cards in a certain section.

Not Quite As Immediate Suggestion: Link each card to... well, the card. It would make it easier for your reviewers. The less effort we need to take to review your deck, the more likely we are to review it. This doesn't have a 100% success rate, but it works more often then not.

Frankelshtein

2011-06-18, 02:42 AM

It also happens to synergise perfectly with Batterskull.

I can see it now, the grotesque, semi-living battering ram soaring through the air on angelic wings, a heavenly glow emanating from its halo, even as its hundreds of tiny legs scrabble beneath it :smallbiggrin:

Androgeus

2011-06-18, 06:00 AM

talking of new cards, I didn't know so many m12 cards (http://mtgsalvation.com/magic-2012-m12-spoiler.html#5273) were already about.
Seems mostly awesome.

Blue gets grizzly bears! for U!... ok it does implode if targeted, but still.
I would say that I can so see people making illusion tribal decks, but it already happened in Duels.

Bucky

2011-06-18, 12:51 PM

Seems mostly awesome.

Blue gets grizzly bears! for U!... ok it does implode if targeted, but still.
I would say that I can so see people making illusion tribal decks, but it already happened in Duels.

That is a pretty bad deck idea, because there are a lot of cards it just can't beat.

Narkis

2011-06-18, 02:29 PM

That bear will be an excellent replacement for Kraken Hatchling in my Mono-U Architect deck.

The-Mage-King

2011-06-18, 02:31 PM

So... I was going to go to the Commander release today, at my FLGS.

However, I called ahead, and they were down to two of the aforementioned decks, both of which were Political Puppets.

Obviously, I decided to skip it, even though I've missed the last 5 release/prereleases due to... Well, the last one being held on Mother's Day.

I am slightly annoyed.

At least the other store I went to had the deck I wanted to get.

Squark

2011-06-18, 07:18 PM

I picked up Mirror Mastery, although my store's release event was... nonstandard, to say the least;

You didn't need to buy the deck, for one. Instead, it was the kickoff for the store's commander league. Also, winning wasn't the most important thing; Instead, everyone got achievement cards, and you could get points for a lot of things. I got Emo (Deal 20 damage to yourself over the course of the game, after I earthquaked twice) and Vomit your hand (play seven cards from your hand in one turn). Winning the game got you two points, losing first got a point, losing last got a point, and killing a player got a point. Other achievements included one for giving someone at least 5 permanents, being at the lowest life total below 10 when the first player was eliminated, and for causing at least 5 permanents to change zones when you where about to die.

Destroying more than 4 of 1 player's lands, killing some one before turn 5, killing more than 2 players in one turn, and taking more than 2 extra turns in a row all costed points.

Now I'm torn between making an Edric deck based around politics, or a Riku deck that's obsessed with cantrips. Also, If Riku copies a spell with join forces (or, for that matter, if any spell copies a join forces spell)... what happens?

Narkis

2011-06-18, 07:35 PM

Sohala

2011-06-18, 09:20 PM

The EDH release was awesome! We used the provided acheivement cards though.

Playing with Counterpunch, Karador as my general, I lost to only an Insurrection.

Oh and a second turn Spawnwrithe is silly.

Frankelshtein

2011-06-18, 09:52 PM

So, my FLGS decided to run a tournament as opposed to a Game Day type event. It was seven dollars to enter into a one-round, four person game of EDH. I decided to enter anyway, figuring it would be a fun way to see how my new Savra EDH deck would fare against others. What I neglected to consider was that the prizes (new Commander decks) would only be handed out to the last man standing in every group of four, so everyone brought their game faces, and serious(ly broken) EDH decks. After eight minutes of stony-faced silence, the player on my right went critical and won (Timestrech into a Mind Over Matter + Niv-Mizzet + Arcanis combo). So, for seven dollars, I got to play four lands, a Soul Stair Expedition, and a Hag Hedge-Mage :smallfrown: At least I got an oversized Edric out of it.

On the plus side, I got to play a really good game after that. The big threat at the table had gotten himself down to 19 through black card-draw and Mana Crypt, so I was able to kill him with a Doomgape swing into Rite of Consumption. After getting Mind Twisted out of a possible win by the last remaining player, I had Savra and a Nim Deathmantle in play, and I dropped a Mycoloth, devouring two creatures. My opponent swung with Grave Titan, 4 zombies, and Inkwell Leviathan. I was able to block the Grave Titan with Mycoloth, Deathmantle it back into play, and devour my four Saprolings from last turn, gaining 8 life, for a net loss of 7. Four turns later, through various shenanigans involving Abyssal Gatekeeper, and a flashbacked Dread Return, I ended up with a 66/66 Mycoloth, and 98 life :smallbiggrin: I ended up losing that game, but it was still gratifying to see that my deck can pull off silly things like that.

tgva8889

2011-06-18, 10:00 PM

Now I'm torn between making an Edric deck based around politics, or a Riku deck that's obsessed with cantrips. Also, If Riku copies a spell with join forces (or, for that matter, if any spell copies a join forces spell)... what happens?

Nothing special. Because of the way Join Forces is worded, when the first copy resolves everyone pays mana, then the effect happens, then when the second copy resolves, everyone has the option of paying mana again, then the second effect happens using whatever mana was paid the second time.

Also, the reason for the Achievement cards is that, well, EDH isn't a game where the objective is to have slain all your opponents. It's really more about creating a memorable play experience. Sometimes winning is really memorable, but I think it's more memorable to score a kill by resolving 6 copies of Titan's Revenge using the same copy of the card because you won 2 Clashes. For example. Or perhaps that awesome time when you turned all your Soldier tokens into Angels with Decree of Justice and Ashnod's Altar. Or maybe that time when you resolved two copies of Conflux. Or when you Shining Shoaled your opponent's Fireball to win the game. Or when you killed someone with your own pain land tapping for mana. Just a few memorable Magic games for me.

I dunno. Maybe that's just me.

Squark

2011-06-19, 12:01 PM

Our release event will be next Saturday, since there's the Nationals today and tomorrow. And we'll be able to bring our own decks.

Squark, how did you and the other players like your event? I've been pushing hard to have an achievement-based tournament just like yours, and I'd like to hear your experience of one.

It worked fairly well. Most people got at least a few points, although the top two players were still the ones who managed to kill every single player on the board. It does alter gameplay a bit, though, because some times people will aim for the achievements. For instance, in one turn, instead of trying to win (although at that point, I knew I wasn't going to), I just cast spells like crazy (for the achievement I mentioned). Of course, the fact that we ended the game with ~20 lands in play each, and one of the guys had the green mana-flare out... Yeah. I really don't understand why I'm the only one at my table who managed to do that. Also we were all drawing cards like there was no tomorrow. I think I only had like 30 cards left in my deck.

One player also donated packs, so people got a number of packs equal to the number of points they got. I think I was the luckiest here. I pulled batterskull and Spellskite. :smallbiggrin:

Silviya

2011-06-19, 02:44 PM

So, my FLGS decided to run a tournament as opposed to a Game Day type event. It was seven dollars to enter into a one-round, four person game of EDH. I decided to enter anyway, figuring it would be a fun way to see how my new Savra EDH deck would fare against others. What I neglected to consider was that the prizes (new Commander decks) would only be handed out to the last man standing in every group of four, so everyone brought their game faces, and serious(ly broken) EDH decks. After eight minutes of stony-faced silence, the player on my right went critical and won (Timestrech into a Mind Over Matter + Niv-Mizzet + Arcanis combo). So, for seven dollars, I got to play four lands, a Soul Stair Expedition, and a Hag Hedge-Mage :smallfrown: At least I got an oversized Edric out of it.

That sucks. At the launch party I went to we could either bring our own decks or buy one of the preconstructed decks, and there wasn't any entry fee, but we still got the promo cards. About half of the people there brought decks, and the other half bought the preconstructed ones. Fortunately, no one brought super broken decks, and the players playing their own decks didn't have a huge advantage over the people with the preconstructed decks.

Personally, I don't like prizes for winning in EDH. I design my EDH decks to be fun more then I design them to win. I like low pressure EDH games where you don't feel like you need to win. I agree 100% with what tgva8889 said about winning in EDH.

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-19, 02:47 PM

So, I've got a new EDH deck for PbP. What do you guys think? Any necessary obvious fixes or bits of stupidity on my part?

EDH - Harvester of Sorrow

Commander: Teneb, the Harvester

1. Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2. Overgrown Tomb
3. Bayou
4. Verdant Catacombs
5. Cabal Coffers
6. Scrubland
7. Marsh Flats
8. Temple Garden
9. Reflecting Pool
10. Savannah
11. Godless Shrine
12. Wooded Bastion
13. Fetid Heath
14. Twilight Mire
15. Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
16. Eiganjo Castle
17. Golgari Rot Farm
18. Selesnya Sanctuary
19. Orzhov Basilica
20. Gaea's Cradle
21. Crypt of Agadeem
22. Wasteland
23. Gilt-Leaf Palace
24. Grasslands
25. Karakas
26. Pendelhaven
27. Urborg
28. Razorverge Thicket
29. Bant Panorama
30. Esper Panorama
31. Jund Panorama
32. Stirring Wildwood
33. Swamp
34. Swamp
35. Swamp
36. Swamp
37. Vampiric Tutor
38. Enlightened Tutor
39. Sol Ring
40. Sensei's Divining Top
41. Reanimate
42. Entomb
43. Skullclamp
44. Swords to Plowshares
45. Eladamri's Call
46. Dance of the Dead
47. Orzhov Signet
48. Selesnya Signet
49. Golgari Signet
50. Survival of the Fittest
51. Regrowth
52. Night's Whisper
53. Saffi Eriksdotter
54. Altar of Dementia
55. Llanowar Elves
56. Sylvan Library
57. Demonic Tutor
58. Animate Dead
59. Grim Tutor
60. Coffin Queen
61. Phyrexian Arena
62. Eternal Witness
63. Elvish Piper
64. Aura of Silence
65. Seal of Primordium
66. Mimic Vat
67. Kodama's Reach
68. Genesis Wave
69. Yavamaya Elder
70. Putrefy
71. Vindicate
72. Mortify
73. Oracle of Mul Daya
74. Solemn Simulacrum
75. Linvala, Keeper of Silence
76. Geth's Verdict
77. Damnation
78. Garruk Wildspeaker
79. Academy Rector
80. Elspeth, Knight-Errant
81. Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
82. Greater Good
83. Reveillark
84. Primal Command
85. Acidic Slime
86. Living Death
87. Mirari's Wake
88. Adarkar Valkyrie
89. Grave Titan
90. Sun Titan
91. Yosei, the Morning Star
92. Kokusho, the Evening Star
93. Austere Command
94. Tooth and Nail
95. Iona, Shield of Emeria
96. Dread
97. Necroplasm
98. Pentarch Paladin
99. Yawgmoth's Bargain

I also have a legacyish casual deck that could use some work: I'm curious to see what you guys would recommend for it. You see, I don't often play Red and my black decks tend to be a bit more conservative towards life and resources, but Rakdos looks fun to play. So I probably had some very epic failures here.

Hellfire and the Black Rose

Creatures
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
1x Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
3x Crypt Champion
2x Gobhobbler Rats
2x Ashenmoor Liege
4x Soulbright Flamekin
2x Cinder Shade
2x Kulrath Knight

Enchantments
2x Rage Reflection
2x Fists of the Demigod
2x Anthem of Rakdos

Instants/Sorceries
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Blightning
2x Infernal Tutor
2x Terminate

Artifacts:
2x Quietus Spike

Lands:
4x Badlands
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Rakdos Carnarium
4x Graven Cairns
4x Lavaclaw Reaches

Still looking for ideas and criticisms on these two decks, by the way.

Zocelot

2011-06-19, 10:00 PM

Personally, I don't like prizes for winning in EDH. I design my EDH decks to be fun more then I design them to win. I like low pressure EDH games where you don't feel like you need to win. I agree 100% with what tgva8889 said about winning in EDH.

I'm not against prizes for EDH so much as against prizes in multiplayer. The system lends itself to far too much abuse. I used to play EDH only very casually, but I have very slowly become slightly more competitive. I didn't realize that until I cast Tooth and Nail for Iona and Blazing Archon against an Ezuri deck. Still, most of the time I will just try to hardcast as many fatties as possible. And I never play blue.

tgva8889

2011-06-19, 10:21 PM

Still looking for ideas and criticisms on these two decks, by the way.

Immediate suggestion: Sort better. Check my post earlier in this thread where I resorted someone's list of cards for their EDH deck. It's totally useless to sort by card type, because cards of the same type all do different things. That'll really help you look at your deck and see if you need more cards in a certain section.

Not Quite As Immediate Suggestion: Link each card to... well, the card. It would make it easier for your reviewers. The less effort we need to take to review your deck, the more likely we are to review it. This doesn't have a 100% success rate, but it works more often then not.

Especially the second one for me. Sorting your deck, however, is very, very, very important, and a useful deckbuilding skill if you decide to make more decks.

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-19, 11:07 PM

It happened. Jace and Stoneforge got banned in Standard.

Announcement here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/148a), explanation here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/148).

MammonAzrael

2011-06-19, 11:45 PM

Wow. I did not expect them to pull the trigger on either card, much less both.

Interesting that they made a special exception for the event deck, too.

This should shake up standard like crazy. I'm kinda excited.

Probably because I hadn't invested into either card. :smalltongue: They've already taken a big price (http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=Jace%2C+the+Mind+Sculptor&auto=Y) hit (http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=Stoneforge+Mystic&auto=Y).

Silviya

2011-06-19, 11:54 PM

Huh. I didn't expect them to be banned. I wonder what this will do not only to the prices of Jace and Stoneforge, but also to the prices of cards like Batterskull and the swords.
Jace may drop down to a price that I'd be willing to buy. I see that Starcitygames is selling Jace for $60.00 already.

And I second MammonAzrael. Crazy stuff is going to happen to standard. It will be interesting to see what decks become the top decks.

The-Mage-King

2011-06-19, 11:58 PM

This... Is wonderful news! I'm so happy that the bastard is finally banned! I can now laugh as people panic, and the price on JtMS drops enough that it'd be reasonable to ask my family for one for my birthday in October.

tgva8889

2011-06-19, 11:58 PM

Holy crap they did it. :smalleek:

Fable Wright

2011-06-20, 02:10 AM

I was expecting the Jace banning, but... I seriously did not see the Stoneforge ban coming. In hindsight, it makes sense, but...

In related news, I agree with MammonAzarael: The new decks are going to be interesting.

Suedars

2011-06-20, 02:20 AM

I was expecting the SFM ban, but didn't see the Jace one coming.

I'm still not entirely sold on it either. It might hit control decks a bit too hard, letting combo run away with the format.

Though I suppose Kibler's UB Infect Control list does get much better now, since CawBlade was always a poor matchup for it, and it dropped off the face of the earth post NPH because of how badly Batterskull wrecked it.

ZombyWoof

2011-06-20, 03:47 AM

tgva8889

2011-06-20, 03:48 AM

I think the combo decks are all beatable, though. The thing about banning Jace is that it allows a much wider variety of cards to just be playable, not even good. For example, Hero of Bladehold, which failed the Jace Test, might actually see play. Mirran Crusader might also be playable. The Infect deck might see play. There might be an Aggro Infect deck. Koth-based decks may show up, as well. Venser may show up (he's so damn good with Blade Splicer). I'm not sure what the answer to ExarchTwin and Valakut is, but I don't think "CawBlade" was their only weakness.

Edit: Also Soul Sisters or some deck with Soul's Attendent and/or Suture Priest may be viable.

Eon

2011-06-20, 12:13 PM

Interesting... I can't wait for the next major tournament, I want to see the change... :smallsmile:

Mr._Blinky

2011-06-20, 01:09 PM

Also, Hawkward might start being taken seriously. I played a Tempered Steel aggro deck that was pretty similar to it a little while ago and it wrecked face.

Nerocite

2011-06-20, 03:08 PM

And cawblade was no more.

The-Mage-King

2011-06-20, 03:42 PM

And cawblade was no more.

And there was much rejoicing.

Zocelot

2011-06-20, 04:07 PM

I'm glad that they banned Jace and SFM, since those cards really messed up the format, but Caw Blade was a good matchup for my deck, Forgemaster Red, and Valakut is a bad one.

tgva8889

2011-06-20, 04:15 PM

ExarchTwin will be one of the big decks for sure. That deck is probably the biggest thing to worry about.

Narkis

2011-06-20, 05:07 PM

I'm not that sure about Exarch. Jace was a very important part of the deck. Especially if your first try got aborted and you started frantically searching to reassemble the combo. It'll be much less consistent now.

I really can't guess what the metagame will look like though. It's been two sets that we've had T1 decks that weren't either Cawblade, or designed to (try and) beat Cawblade. Who knows what new brews we'll see next weekend?

tgva8889

2011-06-20, 05:14 PM

Maybe, but there's still quite a lot of cards to deck manipulate. We'll see. I don't think Jace is the only reason that deck was good.

Craftworld

2011-06-20, 11:57 PM

For months, I have been hoping for Jace to go away, and I was content to wait til October...but this...MADE MY FREAKING WEEK!!!!!:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin ::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
I didn't expect SFM to go away, but I am happy about it too. Goodby Batterskull Party!:smallwink:

ZombyWoof

2011-06-21, 04:26 PM

The great news is that people are going to try to pilot mono black which has a 10-90 matchup vs my blue/white aggro/control deck.

It also has a fairly even matchup with Valakut though my board plan vs them is pretty weak. I think I'm going to start busting out the Spreading Seas again.

Suedars

2011-06-21, 06:17 PM

The great news is that people are going to try to pilot mono black which has a 10-90 matchup vs my blue/white aggro/control deck.

You realize they banned the pieces to CawBlade, right? :smalltongue:

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-21, 06:18 PM

You realize they banned the pieces to CawBlade, right? :smalltongue:

It's still possible, just unreliable. :smalltongue:

After all, Squadron Hawk and the swords are still legal. :smallamused:

ZombyWoof

2011-06-21, 06:20 PM

You realize they banned the pieces to CawBlade, right? :smalltongue:
Yes and those two pieces were the only reason blue and white have ever been a good combination!

U/W doesn't still have amazing tools like Mirran Crusader or Mana Leak, nor does it have finishers like Consecrated Sphinx or Sun Titan, and it definitely doesn't have the Gid Father who is probably the best planeswalker in the game now that BigJ is gone :smalltongue:

(P.S. Batterskull? Still an amazing card. If you'd like we can test your monoblack vs my UW Aggro/control)

Penguinizer

2011-06-21, 06:55 PM

Batterskull and the swords are still good. It's just that stoneforge mystic meant you could run 1 and have 5 virtual copies of each.

UW is still decent, but not as dominating.

Suedars

2011-06-21, 08:48 PM

(P.S. Batterskull? Still an amazing card. If you'd like we can test your monoblack vs my UW Aggro/control)

Why would I ever play MBC? The deck is bad, and people only bring out the "Mono-Black Control is coming back this time" with every new set because they don't understand how decks have fundamentally changed since Onslaught. Plus running control in a fresh format is never a good idea.

Batterskull and the swords are still good. It's just that stoneforge mystic meant you could run 1 and have 5 virtual copies of each.

UW is still decent, but not as dominating.

Batterskull is still ok, but having to hardcast it really hurts it. The swords get a lot worse in any deck that doesn't want multiples (like UW) but are still fine in agro.

Eon

2011-06-21, 09:20 PM

...

A 10 minute attempt at a Red/Black control deck...

Bad idea... :smalleek:

Next time... don't go through a small portion of cards to make a deck. :smalltongue:

tgva8889

2011-06-21, 11:15 PM

Last I checked 4/4 Lifelinking Vigilant creatures that, after dying, could either be added to another creature or simply re-bought weren't bad. Expensive, but not at all bad. Batterskull is still quite a house against the aggro decks. It's just not as "Hey look you absolutely positively must answer me or lose" as it was when Stoneforge was legal.

I'm not sure of current Standard. Valakut and ExarchTwin are certain, and I assume there will be a Red Deck and Vampires. Beyond those, I would venture a guess at some form of mono-White aggro deck (whether it be Tempered Steel or Soul Sisters or some other deck), something involving Fauna Shaman and Vengevine, and then someone will try to play a control deck, probably with Black (Consume the Meek, discard spells, and the best single-target removal; Also Grave Titan). Elves is also still viable. There's also various forms of Infect.

Suedars

2011-06-21, 11:44 PM

The problem with Batterskull now is that it used to single-handedly give you a game plan against agro. Before agro decks had to kill a turn 2 mystic, because if they let you untap and vial out your Batterskull, they'd just lose. Just by being in your deck it'd preserve your life total, slow them from developing their board, and force them into mulligans.

But now that there isn't the threat of vialing it out, they can often just bury you before you get it out. Vampires can actually play a turn 2 guy, and is much more threatening because of it.

It's still fine, but it's no longer a miracle card that takes a mere 2 slots of your 75 to make you competitive vs. agro, letting you run 73 cards devoted to beating the mirror.

tgva8889

2011-06-22, 12:06 AM

Suedars

2011-06-22, 12:15 AM

No, but it still means you have less room to devote to beating whatever non agro decks will be played.

tgva8889

2011-06-22, 12:28 AM

No, but it still means you have less room to devote to beating whatever non agro decks will be played.

Unless the rest of your deck happens to be good against said non-aggro decks. There's enough cards that are fine against many decks, and despite not being amazing Batterskull is a fine top-of-the-curve against many of those decks.

You are correct, it's no miracle card. Because the miracle card was always Stoneforge Mystic. Batterskull just gave it another tool in the shed. Sort of like how Blightsteel Colossus was just a better choice for Tinker.

Lhurgyof

2011-06-22, 01:00 AM

Okedoke, I have a few EDH decks I made to put up.

These are currently needing a couple cards here or there, but work pretty good as-is.

Naughty Necromancy
General: Lim-Dûl the Necromancer (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/114.html)

Creatures
Zombie Master (http://magiccards.info/un/en/46.html)
Lord of the Undead (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/155.html)
Cemetary Reaper (http://magiccards.info/arc/en/12.html)
Gravespawn Sovereign (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Gravespawn&v=card&s=cname)
Ghastly Remains (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Ghastly+Remains&v=card&s=cname)
Deathmark Prelate (http://magiccards.info/le/en/65.html)
Gristle Grinner (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/59.html)
Soulless One (http://magiccards.info/on/en/171.html)
Stromgald Crusader (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/71.html)Noxious Ghoul (http://magiccards.info/le/en/77.html)
Corpse Harvester (http://magiccards.info/le/en/62.html)
Zombie Trailblazer (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/89.html)Tresserhorn Skyknight (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/73.html)Escaped Null (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/109.html)
Carnophage (http://magiccards.info/ex/en/53.html)
Gutless Ghoul (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/60.html)
Deathgreeter (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/71.html)
Severed Legion (http://magiccards.info/8e/en/163.html)
Bog Raiders (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/86.html)
Twisted Abomination (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/76.html)Gravedigger (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/98.html)
Deathspore Thallid (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/102.html)Festering Goblin (http://magiccards.info/9e/en/130.html)Shepherd of Rot (http://magiccards.info/on/en/168.html)Corpulent Corpse (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/98.html)
Dross Prowler (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/64.html)
Gempalm Polluter (http://magiccards.info/le/en/70.html)
Organ Grinder (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/75.html)

Other Spells
Last Laugh (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/68.html)
Pestilence (http://magiccards.info/rv/en/30.html)
No Rest for the Wicked (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/165.html)Hissing Miasma (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/51.html)Necromantic Thirst (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/97.html)Enfeeblement (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/27.html)
Shade's Form (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/81.html)
Binding Agony (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/4.html)
Tortured Existence (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/24.html)

Barter in Blood (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/57.html)
Rise from the Grave (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/114.html)Sever Soul (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Sever+Soul&v=card&s=cname)
Smallpox (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/131.html)
Deathmark (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/91.html)
Premature Burial (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/125.html)
Phthisis (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Phth&v=card&s=cname)Brain Pry (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Brain+Pry&v=card&s=cname)
Hand of Death (http://magiccards.info/st2k/en/6.html)
Sign in Blood (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/117.html)
Duress (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/96.html)
Stir the Grave (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/85.html)
Disentomb (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/94.html)
Call to the Netherworld (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/97.html)Raise Dead (http://magiccards.info/rv/en/32.html)
Consume Spirit (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/60.html)
Mind Rot (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/105.html)
Shrivel (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/126.html)
Devour in Shadow (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/46.html)
Terror (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/182.html)
Cruel Revival (http://magiccards.info/on/en/135.html)
Burnt Offering (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/4.html)
Chill to the Bone (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/52.html)
Grim Harvest (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/58.html)
Dark Banishing (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/7.html)
Doom Blade (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/95.html)Stabbing Pain (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/118.html)
Horobi's Whisper (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/70.html)
Rend Flesh (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/140.html)

Lands
Swamp (http://magiccards.info/arc/en/144.html) x 32

The strategy here is to kill your enemies bigguns (and their generals!) for raising by Lim-Dûl. There's not much else, remove big threats, get zombies out to help bash your opponent in. Suicidal play is made fun with many spells to return your zombies from the grave... again.

And now it's 2 a.m., so I'll put my other two decks, Swiss Army Knife and Scrapyard Scavenge up later. :) If you want to put this deck up on the front page, feel free.

tgva8889

2011-06-22, 01:02 AM

Lhurgyof

2011-06-22, 01:06 AM

Cannot stress this enough for those of you with EDH decks.

What post are we talking about?

I have my deck sorted by Card type and rarity, currently. (Mostly because that's how I've always sorted my decks)

tgva8889

2011-06-22, 01:11 AM

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11224305&postcount=38) is the one. There are also several posts earlier on in this thread you may be able to learn from where we were discussing Commander.

Also, my Commander decks just showed up! Awesome! I'm gonna take them for a spin sometime.

Lhurgyof

2011-06-22, 01:13 AM

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-22, 01:14 AM

tgva, that advice on sorting is really helpful. Could you possibly collect it, generalize it, and put it in the OP so we have it for reference?

tgva8889

2011-06-22, 01:16 AM

tgva, that advice on sorting is really helpful. Could you possibly collect it, generalize it, and put it in the OP so we have it for reference?

Indeed. I'll write a little something in the OP (it's not Commander or Highlander-specific advice) and put that up tomorrow or Thursday (I may possibly be busy tomorrow and am going to go sleep now).

Penguinizer

2011-06-22, 02:20 AM

I'm annoyed. I'm building a commander deck but have a quandary. I'm way over my 100 cards. I'm at 137 or so to be precise.

Here's the list of cards so far, could someone help me trim it down?

General: Mimeoplasm

Lands:
5x Forest
4x Island
4x Swamp
Evolving Wilds
Terramorphic Expanse
Wooded Foothills
Windswept Heath
Verdant Catacombs
Misty Rainforest
Jwar Isle Refuge
Llanowar Wastes
Overgrown Tomb
Temple of the False God
Rupture Spire
Command Tower
Bojuka Bog
Barren Moor
Lonely Sandbar
Tranquil Thicket
Tectonic Edge
Wasteland
Stripmine
Dustbowl
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Vesuva
Yavimaya Hollow
Mystifying Maze
Creeping Tarpit
Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
Mishra's Factory
Treetop Village

NOTE: I know the vivid lands are missing. I have no idea where mine went. Adding them once I reacquire some. UB and UG shocklands along with the UB fetchland will be added later.

Mana ramp:
Sol Ring
Thran Dynamo
Simic Signet
Dimir Signet
Golgari signet
Crucible of Worlds
Wall of Roots
Coalition Relic
Everflowing Chalice
Joraga Treespeaker
Birds of Paradise
Sylvan Ranger
Solemn Simulacrum
Khalni Heart Expedition
Reap and Sow
Expedition Map
Krosan Tusker
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Yavimaya Elder
Kodama's Reach
Cultivate

Mass removal:
Decree of Pain
Grave Pact
Butcher of Malakir
Damnation
Black Sun's Zenith
Oblivion Stone

Targeted creature removal:
Capsize
Avatar of Woe
Master of the Wild Hunt
Shriekmaw
Skinrender

Targeted permanent removal/genera hate cards:
Woodfall Primus
Acidic Slime
Mold Shambler
Maelstrom Pulse
Indrick Stomphowler
Wickerbough Elder
Krosan Grip
Relic of Progenitus

Planeswalker:
Garruk Wildspeaker

Reliability improving cards/tutors:
Sensei's Divining Top
Sylvan Library
Crystal Ball
Fauna Shaman
Trinket Mage
Demonic Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Worldly Tutor
Birthing Pod
Primal Command.
Buried Alive

NOTE: Survival of the Fittest is a card I'll add at some point.

General recursion:
Mimic Vat
Living Death
Stitch Together
Necromancy
Animate Dead
Artisan of Kozilek
Tortured Existence
Regrowth
Eternal Witness

Tokenspawners:
Worm Harvest
Bitterblossom

Creatures for the sake of creatures:
Rampaging Baloths
Wurmcoil Engine
Spiritmonger
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Inkwell Leviathan
Sundering Titan
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Vulturous Zombie
Wonder
Vampire Nighthawk
Thrun, the Last Troll
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave

Equipment:
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Skullclamp
Umezawa's Jitte
Lightning Greaves
Bonehoard

Card Advantage:
Damia, Sage of Stone
Masked Admirers
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Windfall
Mulldrifter
Life from the Loam
Fact or Fiction
Phyrexian Arena

The combo:
Necrotic Ooze
Phyrexian Devourer
Triskelion

I have a lot of things and no idea what to cut out.

Silviya

2011-06-22, 02:48 AM

Wow, guys. Alpha Beta Unlimited is selling Jace for $38.00. I remember when it was next to impossible to find a place selling Jace for under $90.00.

@Penguinizer: 137 cards is nothing :smalltongue:. I've had EDH decks that had up to 126 non land cards before I went through the agonizing process of cutting them down to 60 non land cards.
The main advice I have for cutting the deck down is to leave it alone for a day and then come back to it, and then you'll maybe be able to cut around five cards. Then leave it alone for another day, come back again, cut some cards, etc. That's my process for cutting EDH decks.
I don't have time to look over your deck right now, but I'll try to find the time help you out some tomorrow.

Suedars

2011-06-22, 02:55 AM

Following the 7x9 rule explained here: http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/05/building-depietro-depauper/ is a good way to build an EDH deck. Basically you pick 9 things you want your deck to do (such as ramp, removal, combo, etc.) and devote 7 cards to each of those, which is the equivalent of 4 cards in a 60 card deck. You can obviously mess with the numbers a little, like running 6 of one and 8 of another, or devoting two sections of 9 to one important thing, but it's a very useful framework for building the deck.

Silviya

2011-06-22, 03:06 AM

tgva8889

2011-06-22, 03:17 AM

Alright, can't sleep so I'll write up the sorting thing later.

@Penguinizer: Some of my comments.

21 Mana-related cards is a lot, especially with 41 lands. While I'm as much a fan of having a billion mana as anyone, unfortunately the General you've chosen (The Mimeoplasm) is actually not useful if he's the only card you can play, which means having over 50% of your deck tap for or find mana isn't amazing. Immediately, the Signets stand out to me. Signets are the weakest form of mana acceleration because they're weak to just getting randomly blown up by Nevinyrral's Disk, Oblivion Stone, and similar effects. Khalni Heart Expedition seems more "cute" than good to me: I'd rather just have Explosive Vegetation or Skyshroud claim as a surefire "I get 2 lands" rather than having to have my fetchlands.

Master of the Wild Hunt is a pretty slow "removal" card. Garruk is another Mana Accelerator most of the time, I'd think. Unless you plan to use him for Beast tokens more often (which seems unlikely). Rampaging Baloths is more there for the tokens than it is for the body, it looks like.

Your deck has very few sacrifice outlets. Don't know if that bothers you at all. Sure makes Butcher of Malakir and Grave Pact a lot less broken, though. I'm not sure your deck actually has any sacrifice outlets at all.

Token creation seems absolutely useless to this deck. While Rampaging Baloths is at least high-powered, Bitterblossom and Worm Harvest don't seem absolutely amazing or even necessary in this deck. Do you really want them that badly?

Cards that are just creatures are pretty weak in my opinion. Thrun, the Last Troll, Skullbriar, and Spiritmonger don't really do it for me. Vulturous Zombie also. Just a personal preference, but I'm not a fan for guys that are just there to be relatively big. You also probably don't want your mana tied up regenerating all that much, though I guess you might be able to regenerate off a bad Wrath effect every so often. Also, The Mimeoplasm and Skullbriar is not a combo if that's what you were thinking.

Not a fan of Windfall, but only because there are plenty of more one-sided options if you want to just draw a bunch of cards. Not a fan of Stitch Together as there are better choices in my opinion and I seem to always have trouble hitting Threshold. You don't have sacrifice outlets, so you may have some issue as well.

Do you need the equipment? I understand they're good, but they're not that good (Jitte isn't as good in this format as in others, for example). I don't really know what your deck is trying to do specifically, but if it's The Combo, some of your equipment don't really help you pull that off at all.

I'm not a fan of The Combo, but if that's the purpose of your deck you may want to drop some of the random cute stuff that is never going to help you get there (Inkwell Leviathan). Two of the parts of it are just fine, one of them (Phyrexian Devourer) is kinda... not that good. You also don't have that many ways to just put a card in the graveyard right now (I count 5 including Fact or Fiction)

Crystal Ball seems totally unnecessary. You're playing Blue. There are way, way better choices.

Just a note, there's another cycle of cycling lands you could play. If you're going to go that route.

Edit: Adding short write-up on sorting.

Edit2: Does anyone have objections to me removing their deck from the first post? As this is the Summer of Commander, I figured that I may as well make it a showcase for our Community's Commander decks instead. People do enjoy showing those off.

Penguinizer

2011-06-22, 08:06 AM

Here's version 2 of the deck. The manabase will be completely overhauled when I get the relevant lands. I'll also try to get some more ways to get folks into the grave. Survival of the Fittest and Entomb pop to mind.

Also, to clarify, the plan of the deck is to build around to combo without going all-in. I still intend to be able to play normally without it.

General: Mimeoplasm

Lands:
4x Forest
4x Island
3x Swamp
Evolving Wilds
Terramorphic Expanse
Wooded Foothills
Windswept Heath
Verdant Catacombs
Misty Rainforest
Jwar Isle Refuge
Llanowar Wastes
Overgrown Tomb
Temple of the False God
Rupture Spire
Command Tower
Bojuka Bog
Barren Moor
Lonely Sandbar
Tranquil Thicket
Tectonic Edge
Wasteland
Stripmine
Dustbowl
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Vesuva
Yavimaya Hollow
Mystifying Maze
Creeping Tarpit
Mishra's Factory
Treetop Village

NOTE: I know the vivid lands are missing. I have no idea where mine went. Adding them once I reacquire some. UB and UG shocklands along with the UB fetchland will be added later.

Mana ramp:
Sol Ring
Thran Dynamo
Crucible of Worlds
Coalition Relic
Birds of Paradise
Solemn Simulacrum
Krosan Tusker
Yavimaya Elder
Kodama's Reach

Mass removal:
Decree of Pain
Damnation
Black Sun's Zenith
Oblivion Stone

Targeted creature removal:
Capsize
Avatar of Woe
Shriekmaw

Targeted permanent removal/genera hate cards:
Woodfall Primus
Acidic Slime
Mold Shambler
Maelstrom Pulse
Indrick Stomphowler
Wickerbough Elder
Krosan Grip
Relic of Progenitus

Planeswalker:
Garruk Wildspeaker

Reliability improving cards/tutors:
Sensei's Divining Top
Sylvan Library
Fauna Shaman
Trinket Mage
Demonic Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Worldly Tutor
Birthing Pod
Primal Command.
Buried Alive

NOTE: Survival of the Fittest is a card I'll add at some point.

General recursion:
Mimic Vat
Living Death
Necromancy
Animate Dead
Artisan of Kozilek
Tortured Existence
Regrowth
Eternal Witness

Tokenspawners:
Worm Harvest

Creatures for the sake of creatures:
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Sundering Titan
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Wonder

Equipment:
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Lightning Greaves

Card Advantage:
Damia, Sage of Stone
Masked Admirers
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Mulldrifter
Life from the Loam
Fact or Fiction
Phyrexian Arena

The combo:
Necrotic Ooze
Phyrexian Devourer
Triskelion

Lhurgyof

2011-06-22, 10:46 AM

Androgeus

2011-06-22, 10:51 AM

seeing as everyone else is putting their commander decks up, I may as well put mine up for perusal. It's nothing awesome but the few times I've played it I've had fun.

Intent to Intet

General -
Intet, The Dreamer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247361)

Ramp - 15
Borderland Ranger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189905)
Coalition Relic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209158)
Cultivate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247320)
Everflowing Chalice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220534)
Expedition Map (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193405)
Gruul Signet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247277)
Harrow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209114)
Horizon Spellbomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=210229)
Khalni Gem (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198519)
Kodama's Reach (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247174)
Pristine Talisman (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=233074)
Rampant Growth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205350)
Simic Signet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247195)
Sylvan Ranger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=204976)
Yavimaya Elder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247524)

Card Draw/Library Manipulation - 12
Augury Owl (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208225)
Brainstorm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247331)
Crystal Ball (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205049)
Foresee (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205068)
Guided Passage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=27169)
Jace's Ingenuity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205015)
Mystic Speculation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126156)
Ponder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190159)
Preordain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205019)
Sphinx of Jwar Isle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185709)
Sylvan Library (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159317)
Wordly Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15429)

"Removal"- 8
Acidic Slime (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247317)
Mold Shambler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183414)
Naturalize (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207336)
Nature's Claim (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198357)
Pyroclasm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208009)
Shatter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2302)
Sleep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205120)
Steel Hellkite (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=206351)

Big Creatures- 10
Artisan of Kozilek (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247392)
Blightsteel Colossus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221563)
Duskdale wurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207335)
Gaea's Revenge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205033)
Lorthos, The Tidemaker
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191369)Mitotic Slime (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205032)
Pathrazer of Ulamog (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193607)
Pelakka Wurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193621)
Rorix Bladewing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205371)
Stormtide Leviathan (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205029)

Evasion - 2
Bellowing Tanglewurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209048)
Wonder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247293)

Mind Control - 4
Insurrection (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247347)
Mind Control (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208220)
Roil Elemental (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185712)
Volition Reins (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209001)

Creature copy - 2
Clone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205220)
Rite of Replication (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=195630)

Extra combat step - 2
Hellkite Charger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220468)
World at War (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193484)

Other Big spells - 3
Knowledge Exploitation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152664)
Overrun (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201779)
Summoning Trap
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197527)
Equipment - 2
Lightning Greaves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247337)
Whispersilk Cloak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=206342)

misc - 6
Bear Umbra (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198304)
Elixir of Immortality (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205061)
Garruk Wildspeaker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247323)
Leyline of Anticipation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205008)
Nature's spiral (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207338)

Land - 34
Evolving Wilds (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247396)
Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247328)
Rupture Spire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247181)
Kazandu Refuge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247549)
Shivan Oasis (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209119)
Simic Growth Chamber (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247194)
7x Forest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest)
Khalni Garden (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220535)
Turntimber Grove (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=169977)
9x Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island)
Halimar Depths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197787)
8x Mountain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain)

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-22, 01:19 PM

Question: why did none of the Tempered Steel decks in Nagoya play Porcelain Legionnaire? It seems like it'd be plenty efficient enough to be played.

Chen

2011-06-22, 01:24 PM

Okay, so I sorted 'er up and heres what we've got.

Naughty Necromancy
General: Lim-Dûl the Necromancer (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/114.html)

Zombie Boosters
Zombie Master (http://magiccards.info/un/en/46.html)
Lord of the Undead (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/155.html)
Cemetary Reaper (http://magiccards.info/arc/en/12.html)
Zombie Trailblazer (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/89.html)

The More, The Merrier
Gravespawn Sovereign (http://magiccards.info/on/en/152.html)
Ghastly Remains (http://magiccards.info/le/en/71.html)
Soulless One (http://magiccards.info/on/en/171.html)
Shepherd of Rot (http://magiccards.info/on/en/168.html)
Gempalm Polluter (http://magiccards.info/le/en/70.html)
Noxious Ghoul (http://magiccards.info/le/en/77.html)

Sacrafizzle
Deathmark Prelate (http://magiccards.info/le/en/65.html)
Corpse Harvester (http://magiccards.info/le/en/62.html)
Gutless Ghoul (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/60.html)
Deathgreeter (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/71.html)
Deathspore Thallid (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/102.html)
Organ Grinder (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/75.html)

Heavy Hitters and General Fodder
Gristle Grinner (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/59.html)
Stromgald Crusader (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/71.html)
Tresserhorn Skyknight (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/73.html)Escaped Null (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/109.html)
Carnophage (http://magiccards.info/ex/en/53.html)
Severed Legion (http://magiccards.info/8e/en/163.html)
Bog Raiders (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/86.html)
Twisted Abomination (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/76.html)Gravedigger (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/98.html)
Festering Goblin (http://magiccards.info/9e/en/130.html)
Corpulent Corpse (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/98.html)
Dross Prowler (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/64.html)

Guess who's back...
No Rest for the Wicked (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/165.html)
Shade's Form (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/81.html)
Necromantic Thirst (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/97.html)
Tortured Existence (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/24.html)
Rise from the Grave (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/114.html)
Stir the Grave (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/85.html)
Disentomb (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/94.html)
Call to the Netherworld (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/97.html)
Raise Dead (http://magiccards.info/rv/en/32.html)
Grim Harvest (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/58.html)

Drawing and Discarding is fun!
Brain Pry (http://magiccards.info/di/en/39.html)
Duress (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/96.html)

Death From Below
Last Laugh (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/68.html)
Pestilence (http://magiccards.info/rv/en/30.html)
Hissing Miasma (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/51.html)
Enfeeblement (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/27.html)
Binding Agony (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/4.html)
Barter in Blood (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/57.html)
Sever Soul (http://magiccards.info/8e/en/162.html)
Smallpox (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/131.html)
Deathmark (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/91.html)
Premature Burial (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/125.html)
Phthisis (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/122.html)
Hand of Death (http://magiccards.info/st2k/en/6.html)
Sign in Blood (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/117.html)
Consume Spirit (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/60.html)
Mind Rot (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/105.html)
Devour in Shadow (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/46.html)
Terror (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/182.html)
Cruel Revival (http://magiccards.info/on/en/135.html)
Burnt Offering (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/4.html)
Chill to the Bone (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/52.html)
Dark Banishing (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/7.html)
Doom Blade (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/95.html)Stabbing Pain (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/118.html)
Horobi's Whisper (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/70.html)
Rend Flesh (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/140.html)

Lands
Swamp (http://magiccards.info/arc/en/144.html) x 32

The strategy here is to kill your enemies bigguns (and their generals!) for raising by Lim-Dûl. There's not much else, remove big threats, get zombies out to help bash your opponent in. Suicidal play is made fun with many spells to return your zombies from the grave... again.

Okay, how's that? :)

Very light on land and no ramp. That's probably not going to work well. I'd run at least 38 lands if you're not going to have any mana artifacts. I'd also run some better utility lands like Bojuka Bog, Cabal Coffers, Strip Mine, Wasteland and a maze or two (Mystifying is cheap, Maze of Ith if you have it is better). Utility artifacts could be useful too. There are some staples that fit most decks like Sensei's Divining Top and Sol Ring. This deck looks like it would be very very inconsistent since I don't really see much card draw/manipulation/tutoring. For a black deck there are definitely staples missing such as Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Necropotence etc. I personally like Beseech the Queen as another tutor which works very well.

If you're playing multiplayer Exsanguinate can be nice. In terms of bringing things back from the grave you're missing Patriarch's bidding which works great for a zombie theme. Living Death is very nice too as a way to clear a cluttered board and put a lot of your creatures into play. You need some way to deal with artifacts and enchantments so Oblivion stone or Nev's Disk would probably be worth including. Maybe a Lux Cannon or Spine of Ish Sah would be good too.

I'd also consider the planeswalkers. Sorin Markov is very strong and Liliana can be useful if for nothing else but her tutor effect. Karn of course would be great to shore up mono-black's weakness against non-creature permanents too.

seeing as everyone else is putting their commander decks up, I may as well put mine up for perusal. It's nothing awesome but the few times I've played it I've had fun.

Intent to Intet

General -
Intet, The Dreamer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247361)

Ramp - 15
Borderland Ranger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189905)
Coalition Relic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209158)
Cultivate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247320)
Everflowing Chalice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220534)
Expedition Map (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193405)
Gruul Signet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247277)
Harrow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209114)
Horizon Spellbomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=210229)
Khalni Gem (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198519)
Kodama's Reach (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247174)
Pristine Talisman (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=233074)
Rampant Growth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205350)
Simic Signet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247195)
Sylvan Ranger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=204976)
Yavimaya Elder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247524)

Card Draw/Library Manipulation - 12
Augury Owl (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208225)
Brainstorm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247331)
Crystal Ball (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205049)
Foresee (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205068)
Guided Passage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=27169)
Jace's Ingenuity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205015)
Mystic Speculation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126156)
Ponder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190159)
Preordain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205019)
Sphinx of Jwar Isle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185709)
Sylvan Library (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159317)
Wordly Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15429)

"Removal"- 8
Acidic Slime (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247317)
Mold Shambler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183414)
Naturalize (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207336)
Nature's Claim (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198357)
Pyroclasm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208009)
Shatter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2302)
Sleep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205120)
Steel Hellkite (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=206351)

Big Creatures- 10
Artisan of Kozilek (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247392)
Blightsteel Colossus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221563)
Duskdale wurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207335)
Gaea's Revenge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205033)
Lorthos, The Tidemaker
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191369)Mitotic Slime (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205032)
Pathrazer of Ulamog (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193607)
Pelakka Wurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193621)
Rorix Bladewing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205371)
Stormtide Leviathan (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205029)

Evasion - 2
Bellowing Tanglewurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209048)
Wonder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247293)

Mind Control - 4
Insurrection (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247347)
Mind Control (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208220)
Roil Elemental (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185712)
Volition Reins (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209001)

Creature copy - 2
Clone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205220)
Rite of Replication (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=195630)

Extra combat step - 2
Hellkite Charger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220468)
World at War (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193484)

Other Big spells - 3
Knowledge Exploitation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152664)
Overrun (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201779)
Summoning Trap
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197527)
Equipment - 2
Lightning Greaves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247337)
Whispersilk Cloak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=206342)

misc - 6
Bear Umbra (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198304)
Elixir of Immortality (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205061)
Garruk Wildspeaker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247323)
Leyline of Anticipation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205008)
Nature's spiral (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207338)

Land - 34
Evolving Wilds (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247396)
Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247328)
Rupture Spire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247181)
Kazandu Refuge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247549)
Shivan Oasis (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209119)
Simic Growth Chamber (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247194)
7x Forest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest)
Khalni Garden (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220535)
Turntimber Grove (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=169977)
9x Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island)
Halimar Depths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197787)
8x Mountain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain)

There are some cards here that seem strictly worse than others you could be using. Clone vs Phyrexian Metamorph for example. Or Mind Control instead of Control Magic (1 mana less) or even better Treachery (untap 5 lands when it comes into play). Also in terms of stealing things Memnarch is fantastic, though a bit blue heavy to use his ability multiple times. Still people MUST have an answer to him when he comes down or you're going to win.

I don't see Fact or Fiction in there which is one of the best blue card draw spell available in EDH. I'd consider Krosan Grip over some of your other artifact/enchantment removal. Its 1 more mana than naturalize but it can't be reacted to which is extremely strong. I also don't see many utility lands here. I'd recommend the usual Wasteland, Strip mine and mazes (Mystifying and/or Maze of Ith). As blue you can run Academy Ruins which is very strong. Minamo, School at the Water's Edge is very nice as well for blue. You have a fair bit of ramp but I'd still not be comfortable with only 34 land. With all the ramp you're running I think 36 is probably more appropriate.

ZombyWoof

2011-06-22, 02:17 PM

Why would I ever play MBC? The deck is bad, and people only bring out the "Mono-Black Control is coming back this time" with every new set because they don't understand how decks have fundamentally changed since Onslaught. Plus running control in a fresh format is never a good idea.
It also houses Vamps pretty well. "Kelestria Highborn? Please report to the RFG pile."

Batterskull is still ok, but having to hardcast it really hurts it. The swords get a lot worse in any deck that doesn't want multiples (like UW) but are still fine in agro.
Batterskull is really good :smallconfused: 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink for 5 is solid. 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink for 5 with a bounce clause is really good. 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink for 5 that is functionally immune to Wrath effects and can be attached to a flier for sweet beats is... insane.

I'd say that the only deck it doesn't hose is ExarchTwin, but then I remember to sticking it on that Inkmoth Nexus via Puresteel Paladin and swinging for 5 lifelink infect in the air.

RetSpline

2011-06-22, 08:59 PM

I finally managed to find a Heavenly Inferno in my area. Apparently there were pretty big shortages around me, my FLGS didn't even get any of the commander decks, and isn't getting any until July 9th. So anyways, I tore apart my pre-existing Oros deck (I was on the wedge band-wagon long ago) and made some changes...

General: Oros, the Avenger (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/216.html)

Lands:
Command Tower (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Command+Tower&v=card&s=cname)
Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/282.html)
Evolving Wilds (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/228.html)
Terramorphic Expanse (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/279.html)
Ghost Quarter (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Ghost+Quarter&v=card&s=cname)
Boros Garrison (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Boros+Garrison&v=card&s=cname)
Naya Panorama (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Naya+Panorama&v=card&s=cname)
Ancient Amphitheater (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Ancient+Amphitheater&v=card&s=cname)
6x Mountain
Molten Slagheap (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Molten+Slagheap&v=card&s=cname)
Rakdos Carnarium (http://magiccards.info/di/en/178.html)
Dragonskull Summit (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/223.html)
Jund Panorama (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/225.html)
Auntie's Hovel (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/267.html)
Blackcleave Cliffs (http://magiccards.info/som/en/224.html)
2x Swamp
Bojuka Bog (http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/132.html)
Orzhov Basilica (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/161.html)
Kabira Crossroads (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/216.html)
6x Plains

Mana Artifacts
Orzhov Signet (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/155.html)
Boros Signet (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/243.html)
Rakdos Signet (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Rakdos+Signet&v=card&s=cname)
Khalni Gem (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/205.html)
Armillary Sphere (http://magiccards.info/ddg/en/62.html)
Expedition Map (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/201.html)
Prophetic Prism (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/222.html)

Card Draw/Tutors:
Secluded Steppe (http://magiccards.info/arc/en/133.html)
Barren Moor (http://magiccards.info/on/en/312.html)
Forgotten Cave (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/273.html)
Crystal Ball (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/203.html)
Hoarding Dragon (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/144.html)
Sarkhan the Mad (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/214.html)
Dark Tutelage (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/90.html)
Phyrexian Arena (http://magiccards.info/pch/en/36.html)
Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/102.html)
Diabolic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/91.html)
Praetor's Grasp (http://magiccards.info/nph/en/71.html)

Recursion:
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/229.html)
Artisan of Kozilek (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/2.html)
Bladewing the Risen (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/136.html)
Rise from the Grave (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/109.html)
Sheoldred, Whispering One (http://magiccards.info/ptc/en/49.html)
Marshal's Anthem (http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/15.html)
Sun Titan (http://magiccards.info/ptc/en/45.html)

Mass Removal:
Akroma's Vengeance (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/3.html)
Chain Reaction (http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/74.html)
Comet Storm (http://magiccards.info/ptc/en/43.html)
Earthquake (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/134.html)
Phyrexian Rebirth (http://magiccards.info/mbs/en/15.html)

Life Gain:
Tainted Sigil (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/83.html)
Exsanguinate (http://magiccards.info/som/en/61.html)
Baneslayer Angel (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/7.html)
True Conviction (http://magiccards.info/som/en/25.html)
Archon of Redemption (http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/3.html)

Single Removal:
Duergar Hedge-Mage (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/195.html)
Orim's Thunder (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/24.html)
Angel of Despair (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/180.html)
Mortify (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/211.html)
Din of the Fireherd (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/184.html)
Wrecking Ball (http://magiccards.info/di/en/139.html)
Royal Assassin (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/116.html)
Grasp of Darkness (http://magiccards.info/som/en/65.html)
Dispeller's Capsule (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/8.html)
Crib Swap (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/11.html)
Condemn (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/11.html)
Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/ddg/en/34.html)

RWAR DAGRONS:
Kaalia of the Vast (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/206.html)
Angelic Arbiter (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/4.html)
Mana-Charged Dragon (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/129.html)
Akroma, Angel of Fury (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/108.html)
Steel Hellkite (http://magiccards.info/som/en/205.html)
Kilnmouth Dragon (http://magiccards.info/ddg/en/59.html)
Hoard-Smelter Dragon (http://magiccards.info/som/en/93.html)
Hellkite Igniter (http://magiccards.info/mbs/en/65.html)
Shivan Hellkite (http://magiccards.info/ddg/en/60.html)
Ancient Hellkite (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/122.html)
Lightning Reaver (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/42.html)
Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)

Creature Buffs:
Lightning Greaves (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/253.html)
Vow of Malice (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/107.html)
Whispersilk Cloak (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/221.html)
Loxodon Warhammer (http://magiccards.info/ddg/en/31.html)
Dragon Breath (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/86.html)
Demonspine Whip (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/39.html)

Misc. Spells:
Death by Dragons (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/118.html)
World at War (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/172.html)
Reverberate (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/155.html)

There's probably quite a few "wrong" (if not just weird) decisions I could spend a few paragraphs defending, but I'd rather just hear what people have to say first

Fable Wright

2011-06-22, 10:43 PM

Hm... random question: What is the best set to draft/get a box from, from Ravnica or later blocks?

Recaiden

2011-06-22, 10:44 PM

Hm... random question: What is the best set to draft/get a box from, from Ravnica or later blocks?

Ravnica :smalltongue:

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-22, 11:09 PM

Hm... random question: What is the best set to draft/get a box from, from Ravnica or later blocks?

I'd go with Ravnica or Shards of Alara. Both are strong, fairly balanced (except for Jund) blocks with a lot of good flavor and a lot of fun cards.

Suedars

2011-06-22, 11:10 PM

Hm... random question: What is the best set to draft/get a box from, from Ravnica or later blocks?

For quality of drafting, if you can get a box mixed between Ravnica, Guildpact, and Dissension I'd go for that. 3x Ravnica drafting isn't as good though. If you can't get that (or if it's too expensive), Rise of the Eldrazi is an incredible draft set. I'd probably go for that.

Just whatever you do, stay away from Coldsnap.

Suedars

2011-06-22, 11:12 PM

I'd go with Ravnica or Shards of Alara. Both are strong, fairly balanced (except for Jund) blocks with a lot of good flavor and a lot of fun cards.

In draft Jund is actually very well balanced. It's right alongside Bant for the weakest of the shards through Shards and Conflux, but then becomes the strongest by a huge degree in Reborn, making cutting Jund early and accepting a weak couple packs for a big payoff in the third pack an interesting dilemma.

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-22, 11:15 PM

In draft Jund is actually very well balanced. It's right alongside Bant for the weakest of the shards through Shards and Conflux, but then becomes the strongest by a huge degree in Reborn, making cutting Jund early and accepting a weak couple packs for a big payoff in the third pack an interesting dilemma.

*Facepalm* :smallsigh:

Forgot we were talking about draft. Derp. Yeah, you're probably safe with Shards though.

It really is too bad: I liked Bant quite a bit. Though not quite as much as Esper and Grixis. :smallamused:

Lhurgyof

2011-06-22, 11:21 PM

Very light on land and no ramp. That's probably not going to work well. I'd run at least 38 lands if you're not going to have any mana artifacts. I'd also run some better utility lands like Bojuka Bog, Cabal Coffers, Strip Mine, Wasteland and a maze or two (Mystifying is cheap, Maze of Ith if you have it is better). Utility artifacts could be useful too. There are some staples that fit most decks like Sensei's Divining Top and Sol Ring. This deck looks like it would be very very inconsistent since I don't really see much card draw/manipulation/tutoring. For a black deck there are definitely staples missing such as Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Necropotence etc. I personally like Beseech the Queen as another tutor which works very well.

If you're playing multiplayer Exsanguinate can be nice. In terms of bringing things back from the grave you're missing Patriarch's bidding which works great for a zombie theme. Living Death is very nice too as a way to clear a cluttered board and put a lot of your creatures into play. You need some way to deal with artifacts and enchantments so Oblivion stone or Nev's Disk would probably be worth including. Maybe a Lux Cannon or Spine of Ish Sah would be good too.

I'd also consider the planeswalkers. Sorin Markov is very strong and Liliana can be useful if for nothing else but her tutor effect. Karn of course would be great to shore up mono-black's weakness against non-creature permanents too.

There are some cards here that seem strictly worse than others you could be using. Clone vs Phyrexian Metamorph for example. Or Mind Control instead of Control Magic (1 mana less) or even better Treachery (untap 5 lands when it comes into play). Also in terms of stealing things Memnarch is fantastic, though a bit blue heavy to use his ability multiple times. Still people MUST have an answer to him when he comes down or you're going to win.

I don't see Fact or Fiction in there which is one of the best blue card draw spell available in EDH. I'd consider Krosan Grip over some of your other artifact/enchantment removal. Its 1 more mana than naturalize but it can't be reacted to which is extremely strong. I also don't see many utility lands here. I'd recommend the usual Wasteland, Strip mine and mazes (Mystifying and/or Maze of Ith). As blue you can run Academy Ruins which is very strong. Minamo, School at the Water's Edge is very nice as well for blue. You have a fair bit of ramp but I'd still not be comfortable with only 34 land. With all the ramp you're running I think 36 is probably more appropriate.

Yes, if I had any of those cards to spare or some money at the moment Id put them in. I threw my EDH decks together over a couple nights.

Also, no on the planeswalkers. I hate them and will never use one.

the humanity

2011-06-22, 11:49 PM

tgva8889

2011-06-23, 04:25 AM

For quality of drafting, if you can get a box mixed between Ravnica, Guildpact, and Dissension I'd go for that. 3x Ravnica drafting isn't as good though. If you can't get that (or if it's too expensive), Rise of the Eldrazi is an incredible draft set. I'd probably go for that.

Just whatever you do, stay away from Coldsnap.

Which reminds me, I was ecstatic when I found out we had an unopened box of Dissension, an unopened box of Guildpact, and what was probably 80% of a box of Ravnica: City of Guilds. To say that my brother and I were happy was an understatement.

We also have several boxes of Time Spiral block draft sets and I think 4 Mirrodin block draft sets. Also Lorwyn and Shadowmoor block packs but no one really cares about those draft formats. :smalltongue:

Yeah, we have a lot of cards.

On the other hand, I quite enjoyed Coldsnap draft. It helped that no one but me knew what they were doing. Seriously.

The Key to Coldsnap Draft:

Play Black
Take every card you see named "Grim Harvest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122114)"
Take creatures
?????
Profit!

Suedars

2011-06-23, 05:35 AM

Triple small set formats are always fun for a little while, since they're almost always solvable in the sense that there's just a clear best strategy, but that makes them get stale pretty quickly since you're always either forcing the best archetype, or the second best as a metagame call if you think the best is overcrowded.

3x Mirrodin Besieged is really the only small set in recent memory to provide a good draft environment.

tgva8889

2011-06-23, 05:54 AM

Yeah, that's pretty true. I mean, 3x Eventide is quite possibly the most broken draft format I've ever experienced. I think I just enjoyed it because no one knew what they were doing, so I drafted the strategy that made it pretty close to impossible for me to lose.

RetSpline

2011-06-23, 08:41 AM

Already made some changes to my deck commander deck, can't wait to play it this Friday!

General: Oros, the Avenger (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/216.html)

Lands:
Rupture Spire (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/285.html)
Command Tower (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Command+Tower&v=card&s=cname)
Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/282.html)
Evolving Wilds (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/228.html)
Terramorphic Expanse (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/279.html)
Ghost Quarter (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Ghost+Quarter&v=card&s=cname)
Boros Garrison (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Boros+Garrison&v=card&s=cname)
Naya Panorama (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Naya+Panorama&v=card&s=cname)
Ancient Amphitheater (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Ancient+Amphitheater&v=card&s=cname)
6x Mountain
Rakdos Carnarium (http://magiccards.info/di/en/178.html)
Dragonskull Summit (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/223.html)
Jund Panorama (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/225.html)
Auntie's Hovel (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/267.html)
Blackcleave Cliffs (http://magiccards.info/som/en/224.html)
3x Swamp
Bojuka Bog (http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/132.html)
Orzhov Basilica (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/161.html)
Kabira Crossroads (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/216.html)
6x Plains

Mana Artifacts
Orzhov Signet (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/155.html)
Boros Signet (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/243.html)
Rakdos Signet (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Rakdos+Signet&v=card&s=cname)
Khalni Gem (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/205.html)
Armillary Sphere (http://magiccards.info/ddg/en/62.html)
Expedition Map (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/201.html)
Prophetic Prism (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/222.html)
Sol Ring (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/261.html)

Card Draw/Tutors:
Secluded Steppe (http://magiccards.info/arc/en/133.html)
Barren Moor (http://magiccards.info/on/en/312.html)
Forgotten Cave (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/273.html)
Crystal Ball (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/203.html)
Hoarding Dragon (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/144.html)
Sarkhan the Mad (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/214.html)
Dark Tutelage (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/90.html)
Phyrexian Arena (http://magiccards.info/pch/en/36.html)
Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/102.html)
Diabolic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/91.html)
Praetor's Grasp (http://magiccards.info/nph/en/71.html)
Beseech the Queen (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/57.html)

Recursion:
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/229.html)
Artisan of Kozilek (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/2.html)
Bladewing the Risen (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/136.html)
Sheoldred, Whispering One (http://magiccards.info/ptc/en/49.html)
Marshal's Anthem (http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/15.html)
Sun Titan (http://magiccards.info/ptc/en/45.html)
Beacon of Unrest (http://magiccards.info/pch/en/18.html)

Mass Removal:
Akroma's Vengeance (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/3.html)
Chain Reaction (http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/74.html)
Comet Storm (http://magiccards.info/ptc/en/43.html)
Earthquake (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/134.html)
Phyrexian Rebirth (http://magiccards.info/mbs/en/15.html)
Decree of Pain (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/64.html)

Life Gain:
Tainted Sigil (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/83.html)
Exsanguinate (http://magiccards.info/som/en/61.html)
Baneslayer Angel (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/7.html)
True Conviction (http://magiccards.info/som/en/25.html)
Archon of Redemption (http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/3.html)

Spot Removal:
Duergar Hedge-Mage (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/195.html)
Orim's Thunder (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/24.html)
Angel of Despair (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/180.html)
Mortify (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/211.html)
Din of the Fireherd (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/184.html)
Wrecking Ball (http://magiccards.info/di/en/139.html)
Dispeller's Capsule (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/8.html)
Condemn (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/11.html)
Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/ddg/en/34.html)
Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ddf/en/22.html)

RWAR DAGRONS:
Kaalia of the Vast (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/206.html)
Angelic Arbiter (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/4.html)
Mana-Charged Dragon (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/129.html)
Akroma, Angel of Fury (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/108.html)
Steel Hellkite (http://magiccards.info/som/en/205.html)
Kilnmouth Dragon (http://magiccards.info/ddg/en/59.html)
Hoard-Smelter Dragon (http://magiccards.info/som/en/93.html)
Hellkite Igniter (http://magiccards.info/mbs/en/65.html)
Shivan Hellkite (http://magiccards.info/ddg/en/60.html)
Ancient Hellkite (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/122.html)
Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)

Creature Buffs:
Lightning Greaves (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/253.html)
Vow of Malice (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/107.html)
Whispersilk Cloak (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/221.html)
Loxodon Warhammer (http://magiccards.info/ddg/en/31.html)
Dragon Breath (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/86.html)

Misc. Spells:
Death by Dragons (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/118.html)
World at War (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/172.html)
Reverberate (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/155.html)

Lix Lorn

2011-06-23, 12:19 PM

Can anyone think of a simple infinite mana combo? I wanted to build a deck that wins with Helix Pinnacle, and the only one I could think of was 3 in mana myr and two galvanisers.

Mystic Muse

2011-06-23, 12:35 PM

Can anyone think of a simple infinite mana combo? I wanted to build a deck that wins with Helix Pinnacle, and the only one I could think of was 3 in mana myr and two galvanisers.

Orochi Leafcaller, Greenweaver Druid and freed from the real?

Androgeus

2011-06-23, 12:45 PM

Can anyone think of a simple infinite mana combo? I wanted to build a deck that wins with Helix Pinnacle, and the only one I could think of was 3 in mana myr and two galvanisers.

Voltiac Key, Rings of Brighthearth and anything that generates 4+ mana
2 x Devoted Druid and ezuri works i think
oh, Power Artifact and Basalt Monolith also does the job

Lix Lorn

2011-06-23, 12:50 PM

Orochi Leafcaller, Greenweaver Druid and freed from the real?
Oooh, I like that one.

Bucky

2011-06-23, 12:50 PM

Can anyone think of a simple infinite mana combo? I wanted to build a deck that wins with Helix Pinnacle, and the only one I could think of was 3 in mana myr and two galvanisers.

Echo Mage+Reality Spasm => infinite untaps => infinite mana

Ezuri+Heritage Druid+(Heritage Druid/Joraga Treespeaker) makes infinite mana but also wins on its own.

2 Myr Galvanizers + Palladium Myr (more compact version of your combo)

Bloom Tender + Freed from the Real/Umbral Mantle/Crab Umbra (+phyrexian/hybrid off-color permanents and Borderposts)

also:

Cloudposts + Vesuvas copying Cloudposts + Glimmerposts => 100 mana the honest way

Diarmuid

2011-06-23, 01:00 PM

Can anyone think of a simple infinite mana combo? I wanted to build a deck that wins with Helix Pinnacle, and the only one I could think of was 3 in mana myr and two galvanisers.

Does Worldgorger Dragon + Animate enchantment still work for this too?

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-23, 01:03 PM

My game store is sold out of the commander deck I wanted to buy(R/W/B) so while waiting for them to get it back in stock I have made, using some extra cards(and some that are in other decks that I plan on swapping back and forth between them and this deck.) an EDH Infect deck featuring Glissa the Tratior as the commander....I do want help on it, though, and so I will post it here. I don't know how to link cards, but I will(when I am less lazy) provide a MtG deck builder link, but for now, I hope this list will work...

Note: Cards that are in ()s are cards that have already been named/will be named in a different section but also fill the roll of the section in which they are listed in ()s.

Commander:
01 Glissa the Tratior

Infectors:
02 Phyrexian Swarmlord
03 Spinebitter
04 Phyrexian Juggernaut
05 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
06 Phyrexian Hydra
07 Hand of Praetors
08 Flesh-Eater Imp
09 Core Prowler
10 Corpse Cur
11 Phyrexian Crusader
12 Ichor Rats
13 Whispering Specter
14 Viridian Corrupter
15 Rot Wolf
16 Plague Stinger
17 Flensermite
18 Blight Mamba
19 Plague Myr
20 Ichorclaw Myr
21 Necropede
22 Inkmoth Nexus

Proliferaters and "poison burners":
23 Plaguemaw Beast
(Hand of Praetors)
24 Caress of Phyrexia
25 Spread the Sickness
26 Pitius Strike
27 Contagion Engine
28 Decimator Web
29 Throne of Geth
30 Contagion Clasp

Creature Enhancers:
(Hand of Praetors)
31 Forgotten Ancient
32 Garuk Wildspeaker
33 Eldrazi Conscribtion
34 Batterskull
35 Bonehorde
36 Loxodon Warhammer
37 Whispersilk Cloak
(Oran-Reif, the Vastwood)
(Lanowar Reborn)

Mana Excel and Fixing:
38 Solemn Simulacrum
(Plague Myr)
(Garuk Wildspeaker)
39 Darksteel Ingot
40 Mycosynth Wellspring
41 Golgari Signet
42 Mind Stone
43 Wayfarer’s Bauble
44 Horizon Spellbomb
45 Sol Ring
(Phyrexian Tower)
(Lake of the Dead)

Tutors, Draw and Recycleing:
(Solemn Simulacrum)
(Rot Wolf)
46 Lillina Ves
47 Phyrexian Arena
48 Praetor’s Counsel
(Caress of Phyrexia)
49 Diabolic Tutor
50 Harmonize
51 Beseech the Queen
52 Demonic Tutor
53 Green Sun’s Zenith
54 Ichor Wellspring
(Mind Stone)
(Horizon Spellbomb)

Mass Removal:
55 Life’s Finale
56 Black Sun’s Zenith
(Contagion Engine)
57 Plague Boiler
58 Oblivion Stone
59 Ratchet Bomb

Single Target Removal:
60 Phyrexian Plaguelord
61 Bone Shredder
(Viridian Corrupter)
62 Grave Pact
(Spread the Sickness)
(Pitus Strike)
(Contagion Clasp)
63 Executioner’s Capsule

Dual lands, other color-fixing lands:
64 Overgrown Tomb
65 Lanowar Waste
66 Golgari Rot Farm
67 Tainted Wood
68 Vivid Marsh
69 Vivid Grove
70 Terramorphic Expanse
71 Rupture Spire

Special Lands:
(Inkmoth Nexus)
72 Phyrexia’s Core
73 Phyrexian Tower
74 Lake of the Dead
75 Lanowar Reborn
76 Oran-Reif, the Vastwood
77 Vesuva
78 Vault of Whispers
79 Tree of Tales

Basic Lands:
80-89 Forest
90-100 Swamp

So any ideas on how to make this better? Also, the MOST difficult part of deck building for me is making cuts, so if any of you sugjest new cards to add I would also like you to please sugjest what to cut. Thank you.

HalfDragonCube

2011-06-23, 02:25 PM

The molten psyche combos have probably been put up here before somewhere, but here is an idea for a rainbow artifact deck revolving around red and blue (much like what I have at the minute):

Full hand size is seven cards
Use Etched Monstrosity to make them draw three more
Temple bell for another one

Run it through my pair of flame servants and echo mage, that gives: ((11 + 11 x 2 + 11 x 3) + 4 x 3 ) x 4 = 312 damage to all opponents, insta-kill to almost anything without funny life tricks.

Using things like Iron and Silver Myr to make a little mana ramp (more of a mana slope), is this a viable option?

Edit: Whoa, mathsy fail. Sorted. (I think.)

Eon

2011-06-23, 04:10 PM

Hmm... I don't they can survive that hit Halfcube.

Just a hunch...

Out of boredom, I tried to make a deck with a whole ton of 1/1's, without non-creature spells.

Bandil's 1/1's and four 3/3's

4x Akrasan Squire
4x Intrepid Hero
4x Kazandu Blademaster
4x Mirror Entity
4x Mosquito Guard
4x Phytohydra
2x Rhys the Redeemed
4x Sigil Captain
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Squadron Hawk

18x Plains
14x Forest

Bucky

2011-06-23, 04:43 PM

Eon

2011-06-23, 04:51 PM

Needs more Rustic Clachans. And less land in general.

Oop, didn't think about how much land was in there... :smallredface:

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-23, 05:04 PM

I also have a legacyish casual deck that could use some work: I'm curious to see what you guys would recommend for it. You see, I don't often play Red and my black decks tend to be a bit more conservative towards life and resources, but Rakdos looks fun to play. So I probably had some very epic failures here.

Hellfire and the Black Rose

Creatures
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189230)
1x Lyzolda, the Blood Witch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107363)
3x Crypt Champion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107336)
4x Gobhobbler Rats (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107542)
4x Soulbright Flamekin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189218)
2x Cinder Shade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23172)
2x Kulrath Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=147423)

Enchantments
2x Rage Reflection (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146727)
2x Fists of the Demigod (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158753)
2x Anthem of Rakdos (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97110)

Instants/Sorceries
4x Lightning Bolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=234704)
4x Blightning (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174917)
4x Terminate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247166)

Lands:
2x Blood Crypt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97102)
4x Badlands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202626)
4x Blackcleave Cliffs (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202626)
4x Rakdos Carnarium (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247192)
4x Graven Cairns (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146764)
4x Lavaclaw Reaches (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=171007)

Updated this to include links. Working on linking and sorting the Teneb EDH of mine.

Calmar

2011-06-23, 06:07 PM

Hi

I was reading about New Phyrexia and noticed some things it seems I don't understand:
I was assuming the invaders of Mirrodin must be survivors of Phyrexia who escaped Yawgmoth's defeat and managed to establish a foothold on Mirrodin which, I read somewhere, had been somehow influenced or weakened by glistening oil. Since the Phyrexians were busily gathering valuable ressources all over the multiverse, it isn't a big stretch to imagine that there might be enough of them left, including powerful leader types.
Now it seems the glistening oil now works like some contagious technological illness that turns people who touch it into Phyrexians... How did the Phyrexians come to Mirrodin? And do they still breed newts which are compleated into Phyrexian machine-creatures?

:smallsmile:

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-23, 06:15 PM

If you plan on reading the stories, don't open the spoiler. If you don't plan on reading them, then feel free to open up the spoiler.

Actually, thats not the case. The Phyrexians on Mirrodin where "born" or rather created from the glistening oil, a phyrexian colonization weapon which slowly transforms worlds into Phyrexia. The oil was brought to Mirrodin long ago by none other then the plane's creator, Karn, who had some of it on his powerstone heart. The oil had leaked from Karn's powerstone onto Argentium(Most likely spelled that wrong) and that oil sparked the chain of events that would lead to Argentim becoming Mirrodin and then New Phyrexia. Memnarch's insanity, as well as the growth of the mycosynth and the whole "flesh turning to metal and metal turning to flesh" thing during the Mirrodin cycle story was all a result of this oil. As time went on the phyrexian oil eventually created the first new phyrexians, who dwelt within Mirrodin's core, and from that point on Phyrexia slowly grew stronger and stronger until it left the core and ultimately defeated the Mirrians(who where brought to the plane because of Memnarch's insanity, which was also caused in part by the oil, go figure.),creating New Phyrexia.

As for Newts, yes, they still breed them. In fact, they also have now found a use for UNDERDEVELOPED Newts....using them to animate phyrexian enhancements as "living weapons." That's what the "germs" are, tiny, underdeveloped/non-fully grown Newts.

Also, still no comments for my Glissa Infect EDH deck? Is it so awesome that it has left you speechless or dose it suck so much that you are totally stumped on how to improve it?

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-23, 06:16 PM

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-23, 06:17 PM

I noticed that and fixed it. Thanks for the heads up, though.

Calmar

2011-06-23, 07:08 PM

If you plan on reading the stories, don't open the spoiler. If you don't plan on reading them, then feel free to open up the spoiler.

Actually, thats not the case. The Phyrexians on Mirrodin where "born" or rather created from the glistening oil, a phyrexian colonization weapon which slowly transforms worlds into Phyrexia. The oil was brought to Mirrodin long ago by none other then the plane's creator, Karn, who had some of it on his powerstone heart. The oil had leaked from Karn's powerstone onto Argentium(Most likely spelled that wrong) and that oil sparked the chain of events that would lead to Argentim becoming Mirrodin and then New Phyrexia. Memnarch's insanity, as well as the growth of the mycosynth and the whole "flesh turning to metal and metal turning to flesh" thing during the Mirrodin cycle story was all a result of this oil. As time went on the phyrexian oil eventually created the first new phyrexians, who dwelt within Mirrodin's core, and from that point on Phyrexia slowly grew stronger and stronger until it left the core and ultimately defeated the Mirrians(who where brought to the plane because of Memnarch's insanity, which was also caused in part by the oil, go figure.),creating New Phyrexia.

As for Newts, yes, they still breed them. In fact, they also have now found a use for UNDERDEVELOPED Newts....using them to animate phyrexian enhancements as "living weapons." That's what the "germs" are, tiny, underdeveloped/non-fully grown Newts.

Thanks for the reply. :smallsmile:

Now I wonder...

...whether this glistening oil is the same thing as it used to be earlier; I know it only as a means to bread new Phyrexians in the vats of the fifth sphere and as their blood. This makes it appear as if the oil were some kind of nano-technology that carries all information needed to create Phyrexians.
Does this mean the glistening oil would have created the new Phyrexians of Mirrodin with their different factions and dissenting views on the Grand Evolution in any case (independently from the rest of the multiverse), even if Yawgmoth had not kicked the bucket and things were going well for the original Phyrexians??

The-Mage-King

2011-06-23, 07:18 PM

Thanks for the reply. :smallsmile:

Now I wonder...

...whether this glistening oil is the same thing as it used to be earlier; I know it only as a means to bread new Phyrexians in the vats of the fifth sphere and as their blood. This makes it appear as if the oil were some kind of nano-technology that carries all information needed to create Phyrexians.
Does this mean the glistening oil would have created the new Phyrexians of Mirrodin with their different factions and dissenting views on the Grand Evolution in any case (independently from the rest of the multiverse), even if Yawgmoth had not kicked the bucket and things were going well for the original Phyrexians??

Yes, it would have. The new Phyrexians were created how they are due to Mirrodin being made up of all five colors of mana. The original Phyrexia only had one, which was Black.

Did that help?

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-23, 07:23 PM

@Calmar:

If yawgmoth survived it's hard to say if Argentium, let alone New Phyrexia would be created since Yawgmoth being alive would mean he won, and thus have taken control of Dominara. If that was the case then Karn would either be destroyed or too pre-occupied with fighting Yawg and his minions to create Argentium so the plane flat out would not exist. Also, with yawg still around the non-black Phyrexians, if they came to exist at all, would either be created BY Yawg and his minions or quickly fall under their control.

Eon

2011-06-23, 11:00 PM

M12 spoiler. Don't want to ruin it for anyone... So don't look unless you reaaaallly want to.

I mean, don't even think about opening the spoiler, I'd hate to ruin a surprise.

Or this one. This one also shouldn't be opened unless you really want to ruin the surprise.

Went to go look at some M12 cards on MTG:S... Oooh look... Another Jace!

Interesting to see how this one goes...

Those abilities... :smalleek:

Foeofthelance

2011-06-23, 11:16 PM

Eon

2011-06-23, 11:22 PM

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-23, 11:25 PM

Eon

2011-06-23, 11:30 PM

Get an Empyrial Plate, while you're at it. :smallamused:

Ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow.

Foeofthelance

2011-06-23, 11:34 PM

I agree, the first will be kinda interesting. Well, if you already have a Jace's Erasure out...... :smalltongue:

The second... That one is gonna hurt, I'd think. A lot. A LOT. It's similar to the Sword of Body and Mind, just without the creature requirement or production. Combine with a Keening Stone and they might not like you much longer.

And then the last one.... Well, I'll be hunting down a Niv-Mizzet. :smallwink:

Well, consider that M12's three Jace cards create an instant win scenario...

1) Play Jace's Erasure
2) Play Jace's Archivist
3) Play Jace
4) Activate Jace's final ability. You and opponent both draw 20. Erasure kicks in, he mills 20.
5)Activate Archivist. Discard your hands to draw another 20. They mill another 20. End turn. Somewhere during step 5 if they have a sixty card deck, they lose.

ZombyWoof

2011-06-23, 11:35 PM

Re: Above

Yeah, confirmed on G4. Card is as follows
Jace,Mind Adept
3UU
+1: Draw one, and target player mills one.
0: Target player mills ten
-7: Each player draws 20
Loyalty: 4

The first power is just a built in Jace's Erasure, which is interesting from a flavor perspective at least, since it gives us a Planeswalker with his own spell on his own card. I can't help but feel the second ability is undercosted. By the time you cast him your opponent will have 4-5 turns to deal with him before decking, the equivalent of a free 4 points of unpreventable damage each turn. The last ability I'd need to see in action before making any judgment.

The first power is absurdly powerful considering JaceB's -1 is targeted draw. +1 for 1 card? Seems awesome.

The second ability is going to be pretty mediocre. Milling has never really been a viable strategy for victory, though he will make the mill deck playable in limited I suppose.

10 cards doesn't even roughly equate to 4 damage (even though the math is there... sort of) because generally speaking Jace will be your only way of "dealing damage" in that manner.

His ultimate isn't "each player draws 20 cards" it's "any number of target players draws 20 cards" and seems... really bad, actually. Drawing 20 cards off yourself is... ok, but it's realistically a "draw 7" not a "draw 20" since you're only going to keep 7 of those cards. Sure you get to pick and choose between them, but by the time you drop it it's going to be turn what, 13? There will be, if you ran NO OTHER DRAW SOURCES, 23 cards left in your deck at maximum. His ultimate will be literally useless in Limited except as a really weak kill method.

Also the art looks really stupid... Jace, the Punk Rocker? Compare that to http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/Jace,_The_Mind_Sculptor_Wallpaper__yvt2.jpg

or even

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/cardart/LRW/Jace_Beleren_640.jpg

They're still punishing the poor guy: bad card, even worse picture. GIVE THE GUY A BREAK!

Eon

2011-06-23, 11:40 PM

Well, consider that M12's three Jace cards create an instant win scenario...

1) Play Jace's Erasure
2) Play Jace's Archivist
3) Play Jace
4) Activate Jace's final ability. You and opponent both draw 20. Erasure kicks in, he mills 20.
5)Activate Archivist. Discard your hands to draw another 20. They mill another 20. End turn. Somewhere during step 5 if they have a sixty card deck, they lose.

Hooray! Fun new way... To Annoy! :smallbiggrin:

The first power is absurdly powerful considering JaceB's -1 is targeted draw. +1 for 1 card? Seems awesome.

The second ability is going to be pretty mediocre. Milling has never really been a viable strategy for victory, though he will make the mill deck playable in limited I suppose.

10 cards doesn't even roughly equate to 4 damage (even though the math is there... sort of) because generally speaking Jace will be your only way of "dealing damage" in that manner.

His ultimate isn't "each player draws 20 cards" it's "any number of target players draws 20 cards" and seems... really bad, actually. Drawing 20 cards off yourself is... ok, but it's realistically a "draw 7" not a "draw 20" since you're only going to keep 7 of those cards. Sure you get to pick and choose between them, but by the time you drop it it's going to be turn what, 13? There will be, if you ran NO OTHER DRAW SOURCES, 23 cards left in your deck at maximum. His ultimate will be literally useless in Limited except as a really weak kill method.

Also the art looks really stupid... Jace, the Punk Rocker? Compare that to http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/Jace,_The_Mind_Sculptor_Wallpaper__yvt2.jpg

or even

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/cardart/LRW/Jace_Beleren_640.jpg

They're still punishing the poor guy: bad card, even worse picture. GIVE THE GUY A BREAK!

Well find out how he ends up... Soon enough.

Hehehe, maybe...

ZombyWoof

2011-06-23, 11:41 PM

His art will always be fail though :smallyuk:

Eon

2011-06-23, 11:47 PM

His art will always be fail though :smallyuk:

I do prefer hoods. Well, I'm sure you'll be drawn to it eventually... :smalltongue:

MammonAzrael

2011-06-24, 12:05 AM

M12

Ugh, I'm really disappointed. Why does Jace need a third card? I mean...what was wrong with Beleren? I just don't see the need to have made another version of him, especially since we haven't seen a new Garruk, or a playable Chandra, yet (I expect to get a new Lilliana in Innistrad). Or maybe, introduce a new blue planeswalker, seeing as how blue is the only color to be represented by a single dude? Though I understand if they're reluctant to do that for story purposes.

Ignoring for the moment my personal distaste for the newest Jace, lets look at the mechanics:

First, he costs 5. This is a very strong indicator as to his playability. At 5 mana I'm not sure he'll be strong enough to see play in more than a few specific decks. Most would rather just cast Batterskull.

His +1 ability is strong. The milling is incidental, but an extra card a turn will be...well, Jace 1.0 already saw play for that purpose. And now we don't ever have to give the opponent a card!
The +0 ability...people will try to use this, to break it. I suspect that it will be relevant is some games, but that for the most part it'll just be a finisher after the game is well in hand (after plenty of +1s).
The ultimate is ok. I think it synergizes well with his other two abilities, allowing you to have a hand full of action to control the game, and delivering a final mill if needed.

The biggest concern to me, aside from his late arrival, is the utter lack of board control. Gideon is the only 'walker over 4 CMC that have seen any real success, and he has huge board impact (ok, Elspeth and Sarkhan saw a bit of play...but really, it was very brief).

Ultimately, I would not be surprised if he helped some true control decks rise up, but I don't expect him to be huge.

tgva8889

2011-06-24, 12:07 AM

I'm upset. :smallfurious:

What the hell is wrong with Jace Beleren? WHAT THE HELL!?!?!? Having a 3 mana Planeswalker, that does the most basic blue things, is good for the game.

5 mana Jace is highly likely to be unplayed or at least very weak. It's a bit upsetting. Hopefully Chandra and/or Garruk will be better.

It's also upsetting that, well, the format is so fast that these cards will be useless for a while. That said, I do love the idea behind Jace, I just wish he didn't enter when a bunch of the best milling cards we've seen for a while are on their way out.

Foeofthelance

2011-06-24, 12:07 AM

The second ability is going to be pretty mediocre. Milling has never really been a viable strategy for victory, though he will make the mill deck playable in limited I suppose.

10 cards doesn't even roughly equate to 4 damage (even though the math is there... sort of) because generally speaking Jace will be your only way of "dealing damage" in that manner.

Eh, I disagree. True, the math doesn't work out exactly even. 60 cards to 20 life means about a 3:1 exchange rate...except the deck starts at 53/52 after you actually start the game, and I don't like math enough to calculate the fractions and decimals. Development also seems to push mill a little higher if compare something like Tome Scour to Lightning Bolt, or five cards and slower speed to three damage and faster speed.

And its very easy to build a M12 deck where Jace isn't your only method of dealing "damage" to the deck. Merfolk Mesmerist taps for 2 cards, Belltower Sphinx mills based off the damage it takes, Jace's Erasure mills according to cards drawn. And that's just what we've seen so far.

The following cards all mill and will be in standard, not counting what else gets revealed for M12 and Innistrad.

Scars of Mirrodin:
Screeching Silclaw (Requires metalcraft)
Geth, Lord of the Vault
Grindclock
Sword of Body and Mind

Mirrodin Besieged
Horrifying Revelation
Shriekhorn

New Phyrexia
Chancellor of the Spires
Mindcrank

M11 (For comparison)
Jace Beleren
Jace's Erasure
Tome Scour
Traumatize

True, for the moment mill remains an unorthodox kill method, especially since the mindset seems locked on to, "If you can't finish the kill in one shot, don't try". I consider that to be a slightly odd notion to wed myself to, and I feel Wizards is moving in sort of the same direction, looking for ways to work it into the game as a way an alternative path for Blue.

Fable Wright

2011-06-24, 12:10 AM

They're still punishing the poor guy: bad card, even worse picture. GIVE THE GUY A BREAK!

Never! Give Garruk a break first. He hasn't changed. Ever. Or even gotten a replacement green planeswalker. This will probably change in Innistrad, but seriously, he needs a break before Jace does.

Also, Jace's ultimate works well if you have a spellbook-like effect.

Foeofthelance

2011-06-24, 12:12 AM

I'm upset. :smallfurious:

What the hell is wrong with Jace Beleren? WHAT THE HELL!?!?!? Having a 3 mana Planeswalker, that does the most basic blue things, is good for the game.

5 mana Jace is highly likely to be unplayed or at least very weak. It's a bit upsetting. Hopefully Chandra and/or Garruk will be better.

From what I've heard, Garruk and Chandra are also getting new cards. On the other hand, is it bad that this Jace is where he is? I know the magic number for planeswalkers seems to be Casting Cost 4, but if people only want 4 CC planeswalkers, then Wizards is going to be very heavily handicapped into what they can make. Personally I don't mind the push to more expensive cards, especially if it makes things like JtMS less likely to happen again while making the Chandras and Sorin more relevant.

tgva8889

2011-06-24, 12:14 AM

On another note, how much better is Jace Beleren with his Archivist? His +2 is almost equivalent to Biggest Jace's +1, except better because it's a +2.

I also kind of enjoyed the flavor of Jace having the most expensive Ultimate but also having the +2 bonus. He had a hard time reaching his ultimate power, like having a very hard time trusting other people. I dunno, sorta fits.

All in all, I don't understand why they felt the need to print current Gideon if they were going to make a new Jace. Core Set is still, in my opinion, the place for the most basic version of any Planeswalker. It's where you introduce them as a character. You put in the card that has their name on it, so people know who they are. Maybe that's just me.

Yeah, I realize none of this matters, but I've been a big fan of the core sets before (even when they reprinted cards) and I'm hoping this one does something I actually really like.

Edit: This Jace being at 5 makes him almost unplayable. The fact that he does absolutely nothing to the board makes him more unplayable. Phyrexian Arena is not worth 5 mana, it's worth 3, that's why Jace Beleren was played.

MammonAzrael

2011-06-24, 12:29 AM

Never! Give Garruk a break first. He hasn't changed. Ever. Or even gotten a replacement green planeswalker. This will probably change in Innistrad, but seriously, he needs a break before Jace does.

Also, Jace's ultimate works well if you have a spellbook-like effect.

Nissa Revane (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190411). :smallsmile:

On another note, how much better is Jace Beleren with his Archivist? His +2 is almost equivalent to Biggest Jace's +1, except better because it's a +2.

I also kind of enjoyed the flavor of Jace having the most expensive Ultimate but also having the +2 bonus. He had a hard time reaching his ultimate power, like having a very hard time trusting other people. I dunno, sorta fits.

All in all, I don't understand why they felt the need to print current Gideon if they were going to make a new Jace. Core Set is still, in my opinion, the place for the most basic version of any Planeswalker. It's where you introduce them as a character. You put in the card that has their name on it, so people know who they are. Maybe that's just me.

Yeah, I realize none of this matters, but I've been a big fan of the core sets before (even when they reprinted cards) and I'm hoping this one does something I actually really like.

Edit: This Jace being at 5 makes him almost unplayable. The fact that he does absolutely nothing to the board makes him more unplayable. Phyrexian Arena is not worth 5 mana, it's worth 3, that's why Jace Beleren was played.

I agree with everything, though I have a caveat with your Edited point. While this costs much more, it fits easier into blue permission, and effectively adds life instead of removing it. These two factors, along with him being a potential emergency win condition, could be enough to push him into the 2-3 or in some control decks...potentially being very important in those decks.

Also, my abominable connection is likely opening me up to some nasty ninjas here.

tgva8889

2011-06-24, 12:35 AM

I agree with everything, though I have a caveat with your Edited point. While this costs much more, it fits easier into blue permission, and effectively adds life instead of removing it. These two factors, along with him being a potential emergency win condition, could be enough to push him into the 2-3 or in some control decks...potentially being very important in those decks.

Yeah, maybe, but I feel like most of those decks will play Tezzeret instead because he's just worth more advantage, or Venser because he's both worth more advantage and less likely to die. I guess UR might happen, but not with this Jace. Milling isn't an "alternate win condition" unless you're winning more. There's just so many reasons your other colors are better. The best use for this Jace I can see is mising or setting up a Surgical Extraction, which will still almost never happen because this Jace costs 5 and by that point what are you Extracting exactly?

Also, Jace Beleren is just such a better card. Consecrated Sphinx? So good. Jace's Archivist? So good. I guess they needed to not put that card in this format for forever.

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-24, 01:09 AM

Nissa Revane (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190411). :smallsmile:

Meh. She isn't a green planeswalker so much as an ELF planeswalker. :smalltongue:

Matticus

2011-06-24, 01:10 AM

and by that point what are you Extracting exactly?

Titans, man. They're bloody everywhere.

tgva8889

2011-06-24, 01:12 AM

Titans, man. They're bloody everywhere.

So you're going to mise into milling their Titan? :smallconfused: I mean, I guess, but I'd imagine you'd be dead before then. Worth a try, though. I did play that deck for a while. Now just seems like the wrong time for it.

Matticus

2011-06-24, 01:23 AM

So you're going to mise into milling their Titan? :smallconfused: I mean, I guess, but I'd imagine you'd be dead before then. Worth a try, though. I did play that deck for a while. Now just seems like the wrong time for it.

I'm not going to play this, I think this Jace is bad. I'm just saying if you can mill a titan into their graveyard turn 5 and then Surgical Extraction that turn, nobody is going to beat your face in that game. A bit of an unlikely situation, considering your deck has this bad Jace. I hate titans, I wish they weren't being reprinted...

ZombyWoof

2011-06-24, 01:38 AM

Eh, I disagree. True, the math doesn't work out exactly even. 60 cards to 20 life means about a 3:1 exchange rate...except the deck starts at 53/52 after you actually start the game, and I don't like math enough to calculate the fractions and decimals. Development also seems to push mill a little higher if compare something like Tome Scour to Lightning Bolt, or five cards and slower speed to three damage and faster speed.

And its very easy to build a M12 deck where Jace isn't your only method of dealing "damage" to the deck. Merfolk Mesmerist taps for 2 cards, Belltower Sphinx mills based off the damage it takes, Jace's Erasure mills according to cards drawn. And that's just what we've seen so far.

The following cards all mill and will be in standard, not counting what else gets revealed for M12 and Innistrad.

Scars of Mirrodin:
Screeching Silclaw (Requires metalcraft)
Geth, Lord of the Vault
Grindclock
Sword of Body and Mind

Mirrodin Besieged
Horrifying Revelation
Shriekhorn

New Phyrexia
Chancellor of the Spires
Mindcrank

M11 (For comparison)
Jace Beleren
Jace's Erasure
Tome Scour
Traumatize

True, for the moment mill remains an unorthodox kill method, especially since the mindset seems locked on to, "If you can't finish the kill in one shot, don't try". I consider that to be a slightly odd notion to wed myself to, and I feel Wizards is moving in sort of the same direction, looking for ways to work it into the game as a way an alternative path for Blue.

There is a game called Allegiance in which new commanders and new players try a variety of strategies. Usually it's some form of tech rush or spec mine rush or bomb rush, but the point is: these new players and commanders will often beat bad players with their gimmicky tricks and get absolutely rolled by experienced commanders and players.

The reason these people are mocked in that game when they talk about how "great" and "new" their strategy is is not because the community is mean. It's because the game has been around ten years and approximately nine years ago the best strategies had been found, and these gimmicky rush strats that the newbies keep trying have been proven time and time again to just get rolled by the more traditional "build econ, get tech, win game."

Why do I bring up a game you haven't ever heard of before?

In Magic: The Gathering, a mill deck has, outside of absurd combos, never been good. No one has ever uttered the words, "Hey look at that tier1 mill deck!" without being joking. The reason no one plays them is because they're bad... the game has been around for 17 years and Mill has not during any of that time been an effective strategy for victory. In the past 17 years, the archetypes have been firmly solidified as:

Combo
Aggro
Control

Those are the big three. Combo generally is beaten by control but beats aggro, aggro is generally beaten by combo and generally beats control, and control beats combo but generally loses to aggro.

The issue with mill decks that are not combo is that they do not interact with their opponents enough to be considered control (generally speaking) and they do not kill quickly enough to be considered aggro. That means that they are relegated to being combo decks... and combo decks by their nature need to be able to go off.

Jace is a 5cc planeswalker, but even at 4cc he would be awful. Why? because he comes out turn 4. He has to be defended and allowed to +0 for at least 4 turns meaning that you're looking at, uninterrupted, a turn 7 kill. But Combo can just laugh and splinter-exarch in your face... unless you're trying a controlling strategy to go along with it. Even then you are spending your entire turn 4 doing nothing.

Throwing in cards like jace's erasure are interesting, maybe, but remember: they each have to be cast. They take up turns... and either you're in a control shell and you are waiting until you have an opening for Erasure (which takes too long and you may as well just go with a tradition finisher like Consecrated Sphinx, which will kill just as fast as Jace and help you in the meantime) or you're in an aggro shell in which case you need to be playing threats... and "you will lose 1/60th your life total every turn" isn't threatening. Heck, 2cc 2 power dudes aren't usually considered "threats..." and comparatively Erasure would have to mill them for at least 5 every turn.

So at the end of the day the thing to realize is this: Aggro needs threats on the board. Control needs a way to deal with threats on the board. Mill shells don't really contribute either of these... meaning mill shells need to be combo.

Right now the top combo decks are Deceiver Twin and Valakut... Valakut is known as the "Six Turn Clock" for a reason, and Deceiver Twin is just plain better. Show me a mill deck based around a 5cc planeswalker that can consistently win on turn 6 and I will concede the point.

Never! Give Garruk a break first. He hasn't changed. Ever. Or even gotten a replacement green planeswalker. This will probably change in Innistrad, but seriously, he needs a break before Jace does.
But Garruk isn't awful and his art isn't hideous :smallconfused: He's a windmill slam 1st pick in any limited format (like seriously, M11 sealeds were like, "OMFG I GOT THREE LIGHTNING BOLTS AND GARRUK! STOMPSTOMPSTOMP!), and he's decent in constructed as long as decks like Elves exist. And there is a replacement planeswalker! Nissa!

Suedars

2011-06-24, 02:21 AM

Plus the new Jace is going to be absolutely atrocious post-Innistrad. Milling in a graveyard block is giving your opponent free cards.

memnarch

2011-06-24, 02:27 AM

Sheesh, it's like everyone here is only looking at Standard. :smalltongue: There are other ways to play besides that. As for whether it's a good card for Standard or not, I'm thinking that the second ability might get used quite a bit with Innistrad. It is thought that it will be a Graveyard based block or have biggish elements of that.

I mean the ability doesn't say target opponent does it? :smallwink:

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-24, 02:28 AM

tgva8889

2011-06-24, 03:45 AM

Actually, there are a lot more archetypes than just Aggro, Control, and Combo. It really depends what you mean when you're talking about "kinds of decks." There's actually quite a bit of variety there. The problem with milling is that it's just worse at playing Aggro than the traditional method of damage, and most people try to play Aggro Mill. A controlling mill deck could theoretically work if you had the right threat, I think.

Also, I will be removing decks from the first post in order to make space for Commander/EDH decks. If you would like your deck not to be removed, please let me know.

Calmar

2011-06-24, 04:42 AM

Thanks for the insight, Maho-Tsukai
and The-Mage-King. :smallsmile:

Bucky

2011-06-24, 10:38 AM

In Magic: The Gathering, a mill deck has, outside of absurd combos, never been good. No one has ever uttered the words, "Hey look at that tier1 mill deck!" without being joking. The reason no one plays them is because they're bad... the game has been around for 17 years and Mill has not during any of that time been an effective strategy for victory.

Millstone control used to be tier 1; arguable because this was before the community learned the basics of aggro deckbuilding.

Actually, there are a lot more archetypes than just Aggro, Control, and Combo. It really depends what you mean when you're talking about "kinds of decks." There's actually quite a bit of variety there.

Depends on how far down the taxonomy you go. Classifying decks by when they try to win is one way.
1)Soon - Aggro
2)Later - Control
3)Whenever convenient - Combo
4)Holes in opponent's curve - Midrange
5)Two or more of the above - Hybrid
6)Never - Horrible (included for completeness)

Looking a bit deeper, each archetype tries to take an advantage in one or more resources and convert that advantage into a victory. You can also classify decks based on which resource they attack.
1)Life - Aggro
2)Active Cards - Control
3)Mana - Ponza (subspecies: ramp, LD)
4)Board Presence - Tempo (AKA aggro-control)
5)Synergy - Combo
6)Creature Size - Midrange
7)Options - Lock (sometimes called a subspecies of control, as it makes some of the opponent's cards useless)
8)Unique resource - Engine Combo (e.g. Glimpse Elves, Valakut, Dredge)

Again, there are hybrids; some decks have several paths to victory.

So where does mill fit into these? In the first split, it's too slow compared to life-based aggro. It also doesn't come with the built-in board presence to make a midrange strategy work, unlike creatures. Any successful mill deck must be either a control deck or a combo deck.

In the second list, mill doesn't affect most of the resources. It doesn't touch life totals (1), reduces only their stock of inactive cards(2), does not produce or deny mana (3), and does not affect the board (4, 6). Mill is only helpful if it wins the game outright (5), shuts down cards that search libraries (7) or your deck uses the cards you mill to fuel shennanigans (8).

the humanity

2011-06-24, 10:50 AM

I say putting new jace with an artifact deck will be cool- lynchpin of a dredge standard.

tgva8889

2011-06-24, 10:51 AM

Bucky

2011-06-24, 11:07 AM

"Combo" is a really bad archetype, because there's a huge difference between High Tide or The Perfect Storm and, say, Thopter/Sword or Illusions/Donate.

Hence the distinction between 'synergy' and 'unique resource' decks.

tgva8889

2011-06-24, 11:42 AM

It doesn't really usefully describe them, though. I mean, Valakut is not the same as Elves Combo at all.

Bucky

2011-06-24, 11:45 AM

It doesn't really usefully describe them, though. I mean, Valakut is not the same as Elves Combo at all.

They're more similar than they look.

Elves Combo - Critical density of Elf spells that cost G, plus Glimpse of Nature
Valakut - Critical density of cards that put Mountains on the battlefield, plus Valakut

Eon

2011-06-24, 12:18 PM

Gah, forgot about the Jace conversation... :smallredface:
When you think about it, while the new Jace may not make it into all that many tournament/top 8 decks, that's not the only way people play. Like R & D has said, Spike, Timmy, and Johnny. While the Spikes may not use it all that often, same with Timmy, Johnny will love it. In theory of course.

He just wants to build a deck with it, and if it wins at least once, it's pretty well worth it. If I remember the descriptions right.

If I get one, I'll probably work on a deck, because making decks is fun! :smallbiggrin:

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-24, 12:31 PM

The new Jace dose seem interesting, and if he stays low in Price I may be able to finally make that Dimir Mill deck(Glimps the Unthinkable is excessively overpriced at my game store.) though sadly it means I will need a replacement for him in my U/B infect deck once rotation hits. Maybe I can put those Tezzeret's Gambits to good use?

Also, still no comment on the EDH Infect deck I posted?

tgva8889

2011-06-24, 12:31 PM

They're more similar than they look.

Elves Combo - Critical density of Elf spells that cost G, plus Glimpse of Nature
Valakut - Critical density of cards that put Mountains on the battlefield, plus Valakut

Elves Combo - Wins on Turns 1-3
Valakut - Wins on Turns 4+

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-24, 01:38 PM

Just because standard is not friendly to combo that dose not mean combo is a bad archtype. If you think combo is too slow, Flash Hulk wants to have a word with you. While plenty of combos may be too slow for tourny play that dose not mean they are too slow for casual play. In a non PTQ environment combo decks can be downright nasty, depending on the combo in question. Infinite turns, infinite mana, infinite anything, really, is nothing to sneeze at iand can kill outright, as can other combos. EDH also is a good place to run certain combos and some commanders make it easy(Acrum Daggson comes to mind...great machine anybody?). So before sombody claims combo decks are not that great consider all formats in your evaluation instead of just looking at competitive MTG.

Suedars

2011-06-24, 02:43 PM

The method of classification I appreciate is the one that Patrick Chapin uses in his book. He basically puts the game into stages of development, and focuses on how decks operate within those stages. Aggro decks are generally Stage 1 decks, as they spend a lot of time with a small amount of mana playing smaller earlier threats. Control decks are designed to get to a dominating Stage 3 by surviving, preventing early threats, etc. Ramp decks skip Stage 2 entirely by mana-ramping from Stage 1 to Stage 3. Mid-Range plays more of a Stage 2 game, where it's larger than the Stage 1 Aggro plans but not as big as Stage 3 games. Aggro-Control generally sets up early pressure in Stage 1 and then plays controlling, defensive cards to protect that threat while building to dominating Stage 3. (I may not have these exactly right but you get the idea.)

To clarify this, stage 1 is the stage of the game where you're still setting up (generally land, go) and don't have many ways of interacting. Stage 2 is where most of the game and interaction occurs, and is where most magic theory about card advantage and the like occurs. Stage 3 is where one deck has such an overwhelming advantage that they have shut the other deck out of most meaningful forms of interaction.

So most agro decks skip stage 1 altogether, through use of aggressive one drops. They seek to quickly overwhelm other decks that are stuck in stage 1, in order to reach stage 3 as quickly as possible. For your traditional RDW, Stage 3 is the point where your opponent's life total is low enough that you can burn them out, so the only relevant cards in their deck are counterspells and lifegain.

Midrange operates primarily in stage 2, because that's where the deck thrives. Jund is the perfect example of this. Nearly every spell in the deck was a 2 for 1. It's less that they're slower than agro but faster than control, but more that midrange decks are built to be card advantage machines. So long as they can reach stage 2 relatively intact, and stop their opponent from reaching stage 3, they'll almost certainly win, since they're so good at grinding out card advantage. However, they can lose to a quick assault while they're setting up their shaky manabase (vulnerable in stage 1), and they can be beaten by going over the top by locking them out of the game with cards like Sovereigns or Iona (few responses to a Stage 3ed opponent).

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-24, 06:03 PM

Hmm...

It just occurred to me that New Jace's +0 is 20 damage with an active Bloodchief Ascension. :smallamused:

Alternately, I could see New Jace being used in a Modern Format UGB deck with Mimeoplasm and Dredge. Jace's + ability both draws 1 and mills 1, which is great for a Dredge deck. With Golgari Gravetroll banned in the format, it also sort of fills the empty spot on the Mana Curve. This would also allow some traditional blue strategies to get into the deck, like scrying up to see if you'd get a better result drawing or dredging something up.

Suedars

2011-06-24, 06:33 PM

Hmm...

It just occurred to me that New Jace's +0 is 20 damage with an active Bloodchief Ascension. :smallamused:

And Archive Trap is 26, and you'll very frequently be casting it for free, but it still hasn't seen any play.

Alternately, I could see New Jace being used in a Modern Format UGB deck with Mimeoplasm and Dredge. Jace's + ability both draws 1 and mills 1, which is great for a Dredge deck. With Golgari Gravetroll banned in the format, it also sort of fills the empty spot on the Mana Curve. This would also allow some traditional blue strategies to get into the deck, like scrying up to see if you'd get a better result drawing or dredging something up.

A 5 mana planeswalker you have to protect is both way too slow and way too fair for Dredge. Plus Grave-Troll's mana cost was completely irrelevant in Dredge. It's not there to cast. It's there to discard and dredge with.

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-24, 06:36 PM

A 5 mana planeswalker you have to protect is both way too slow and way too fair for Dredge. Plus Grave-Troll's mana cost was completely irrelevant in Dredge. It's not there to cast. It's there to discard and dredge with.

Your points are perfectly valid, but the bolded one amuses me greatly. :smallbiggrin:

MammonAzrael

2011-06-24, 07:12 PM

Elves Combo - Wins on Turns 1-3
Valakut - Wins on Turns 4+

That just means that Elves is likely the better combo deck. The plays that get them to their win are fairly similar as far as combo goes (as opposed to High Tide or ANT or Trix).

Just because standard is not friendly to combo that dose not mean combo is a bad archtype. If you think combo is too slow, Flash Hulk wants to have a word with you. While plenty of combos may be too slow for tourny play that dose not mean they are too slow for casual play. In a non PTQ environment combo decks can be downright nasty, depending on the combo in question. Infinite turns, infinite mana, infinite anything, really, is nothing to sneeze at iand can kill outright, as can other combos. EDH also is a good place to run certain combos and some commanders make it easy(Acrum Daggson comes to mind...great machine anybody?). So before sombody claims combo decks are not that great consider all formats in your evaluation instead of just looking at competitive MTG.

I don't think he was saying Combo is bad in that the archetype is a poor choice. Rather that the term "combo" is a bad descriptor of the decks it incorporates, as there are so many different and varied combos in the game. Saying "It's a Combo deck" doesn't really give one an idea of what the deck will do or what it's goals will be, whereas Control and Aggro both give at least a vague impression of the deck's game-plan.

Penguinizer

2011-06-24, 07:20 PM

Valakut is also a lot more reliable.

tgva8889

2011-06-24, 07:35 PM

So most agro decks skip stage 1 altogether, through use of aggressive one drops. They seek to quickly overwhelm other decks that are stuck in stage 1, in order to reach stage 3 as quickly as possible. For your traditional RDW, Stage 3 is the point where your opponent's life total is low enough that you can burn them out, so the only relevant cards in their deck are counterspells and lifegain.

Well, actually, Chapin treats RDW as a combo deck where the combo is "Any combination of spells that deals 20+ damage." It really does end up playing out that way. Combo Decks don't really follow the Stages as much.

I should really reread that section of the book so I can actually clarify what Chapin is talking about.

Eon

2011-06-25, 01:59 AM

Looking through the flavor texts of cards, I have to say... Red has some of the best flavor texts...

Mystic Muse

2011-06-25, 02:01 AM

Looking through the flavor texts of cards, I have to say... Red has some of the best flavor texts...

"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."

MammonAzrael

2011-06-25, 02:16 AM

Red is home to my two favorite flavor texts:

Rock Slide - "Good ol' rock. Nothing beats rock." - Rhirhok, goblin archer
Sneak Attack - "Nothin' beat surprise—'cept rock."

Silviya

2011-06-25, 02:45 AM

My favorite flavor text is Niv-Mizzet's (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96952) original flavor text:
"(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1"

I don't know why they changed it in his FTV: Dragons printing . . . . .

Red has some great flavor texts.

Suedars

2011-06-25, 02:48 AM

Well, actually, Chapin treats RDW as a combo deck where the combo is "Any combination of spells that deals 20+ damage." It really does end up playing out that way. Combo Decks don't really follow the Stages as much.

I should really reread that section of the book so I can actually clarify what Chapin is talking about.

RDW is a weird case, since there's so many incarnations of it. The pure (or near pure) burn varieties can be classified as a combo deck (though there are some flaws there, like RDW lacking the critical turn of traditional combo), the more balanced or creature based varieties are just traditional agro.

Frankelshtein

2011-06-25, 03:34 AM

As far as red flavor text goes, I've always been a fan of Jaya Ballard quotes (and by extension, Chandra). Also, anything involving Goblins.

tgva8889

2011-06-25, 03:49 AM

RDW is a weird case, since there's so many incarnations of it. The pure (or near pure) burn varieties can be classified as a combo deck (though there are some flaws there, like RDW lacking the critical turn of traditional combo), the more balanced or creature based varieties are just traditional agro.

Well, he also defines all the variants. Several of them are not really Red Deck Wins, they're (for example) Ponza or Sligh or what have you. There are a ton of different names for them.

ZombyWoof

2011-06-25, 01:03 PM

I like most of the Coutnerspell flavor texts, especially Tempest:

"It was probably a lousy spell in the first place."

Or Masques

"Your attack has been rendered harmless. It is; however, quite pretty."

Rewind flavor has always been good too, "In tolaria we practice the art of building dams" and "Let's go over this one more time..."

Eon

2011-06-25, 03:56 PM

Fodder Cannon :smallwink:

also, I like Tapped Out. Pretty useful for playing with deck ideas.

Foeofthelance

2011-06-25, 05:09 PM

There is a game called Allegiance in which new commanders and new players try a variety of strategies. Usually it's some form of tech rush or spec mine rush or bomb rush, but the point is: these new players and commanders will often beat bad players with their gimmicky tricks and get absolutely rolled by experienced commanders and players.

The reason these people are mocked in that game when they talk about how "great" and "new" their strategy is is not because the community is mean. It's because the game has been around ten years and approximately nine years ago the best strategies had been found, and these gimmicky rush strats that the newbies keep trying have been proven time and time again to just get rolled by the more traditional "build econ, get tech, win game."

Why do I bring up a game you haven't ever heard of before?

In Magic: The Gathering, a mill deck has, outside of absurd combos, never been good. No one has ever uttered the words, "Hey look at that tier1 mill deck!" without being joking. The reason no one plays them is because they're bad... the game has been around for 17 years and Mill has not during any of that time been an effective strategy for victory. In the past 17 years, the archetypes have been firmly solidified as:

Combo
Aggro
Control

Those are the big three. Combo generally is beaten by control but beats aggro, aggro is generally beaten by combo and generally beats control, and control beats combo but generally loses to aggro.

The issue with mill decks that are not combo is that they do not interact with their opponents enough to be considered control (generally speaking) and they do not kill quickly enough to be considered aggro. That means that they are relegated to being combo decks... and combo decks by their nature need to be able to go off.

Jace is a 5cc planeswalker, but even at 4cc he would be awful. Why? because he comes out turn 4. He has to be defended and allowed to +0 for at least 4 turns meaning that you're looking at, uninterrupted, a turn 7 kill. But Combo can just laugh and splinter-exarch in your face... unless you're trying a controlling strategy to go along with it. Even then you are spending your entire turn 4 doing nothing.

Throwing in cards like jace's erasure are interesting, maybe, but remember: they each have to be cast. They take up turns... and either you're in a control shell and you are waiting until you have an opening for Erasure (which takes too long and you may as well just go with a tradition finisher like Consecrated Sphinx, which will kill just as fast as Jace and help you in the meantime) or you're in an aggro shell in which case you need to be playing threats... and "you will lose 1/60th your life total every turn" isn't threatening. Heck, 2cc 2 power dudes aren't usually considered "threats..." and comparatively Erasure would have to mill them for at least 5 every turn.

So at the end of the day the thing to realize is this: Aggro needs threats on the board. Control needs a way to deal with threats on the board. Mill shells don't really contribute either of these... meaning mill shells need to be combo.

Right now the top combo decks are Deceiver Twin and Valakut... Valakut is known as the "Six Turn Clock" for a reason, and Deceiver Twin is just plain better. Show me a mill deck based around a 5cc planeswalker that can consistently win on turn 6 and I will concede the point.

I'm not saying mill is good, I said I think that Development is working on making it better or more available and that I disagree with what I've come to consider the main argument against it. There are, actually, a couple of arguments that I think need to be addressed, and while they're all part of the problem, some are less direct than others.

"If you can't do it in one turn, its not worth it." - Ok, but why? We've known for more than a decade now that the only life point that counts in a game of Magic is the last one. That doesn't stop people from attacking just because they can't do 20 damage in one swing. To me, mill is the same thing. Sure, the only card that counts is the last card in their deck. But the more cards cut off the top, the faster you get to that card.

"Its too slow." - Yes, it is. But that's not Mill's fault, that's the fault of the level of power creep that's been building in Magic for the past few years. We're quickly finding our way back to the time of, "If it costs more than three and doesn't win you the game that turn, it isn't worth playing." This is the same reason why there haven't been any good decks in standard for the past few months except for CawGo derivatives and maybe the occasional Valakut. By that consideration, out of the 1500 cards or so printed in the last two blocks and core set, only 40-60 were capable of winning a game at high level play.

"There's not enough support." - Also true, and also something I think is changing. The first common mill card didn't arrive until Judgement. Even then, it was off color and tacked on as an alternative to direct damage on "Book Burning." The first uncommon cards came in Nemesis as a punishment for blocking "Flint Golem." Until then, every card mill card outside Portal was rare, and for the most part the high end cards still remain Rare and Mythic. That would make building any sort of condition deck rare.

Yet more recent sets have been putting more mill in, and at much lower rarities. Things like Tome Scour, Halimar Excavator, and Shriek Horn mean the current Standard has the most mill capable common cards printed in the entire history of Magic combined. That is why I think mill might become a much more viable strategy in the future.

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-25, 05:18 PM

True, but many of those mill cards will rotate soon, so unless they give us lots of mill in the new core set and next block we won't be seeing any standard mill decks unless there are bans in standard to tear down CawBlade, and I don't think that's happening. Maro already came out and said "we're not banning Jace" and while there where rumors of a stoneforge mystic ban I have yet to see or find out that it has happened. If it has, then I I apologize for being so ill-informed, but even without mystic CawBlade would still be alive and kicking, and though weaker, I don't think that weakening CawBlade will be enough to make the environment slow enough for mill.

IthilanorStPete

2011-06-25, 05:26 PM

ScionoftheVoid

2011-06-25, 05:27 PM

Bucky

2011-06-25, 05:29 PM

Also, there is some very effective mill hate in the format right now (e.g. Kozilek)

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-25, 05:34 PM

MammonAzrael

2011-06-25, 09:42 PM

I see, thanks for the heads up. It seems that's what I get for being a mostly casual player who still plays cards from the Urza's block and is only involved in tourney play via the occasional FNM. Now I have to go research to see what decks are/will be big now that CawBlade has been effectively killed.

Well if you're only casually involved with the tourney scene...do you need to keep up with the current Standard trends? I mean, with the decks that relied on Mystic/Jace neutered, you should feel free to play whatever you want, no? No need to worry about who the big dogs are...I guess unless you're thinking about sideboards.

In which case, expect to see plenty of Valakut and Vampires, and plenty of other aggro. You may see some control, infect, and Tezz builds, but they won't do as well given the undefined nature of the format. I'd stick with something aggro like RDWs for now.

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-25, 09:55 PM

Yeah, sideboarding is exactly what I was concerned with. I am also worried that my current incarnation of U/B Infect will not work in the new meta as it packed little to no spot removal and used the contagion clasp + tumble magnet as a way to control creatures. However, if aggro becomes prominent again I most likely will have to totally gut my deck and add more spot removal to deal with creature heavy strategies that where basicly non-existent in my game store's meta pre-ban(pretty much everybody was playing CawBlade or some other form of control that utalized Mind Sculptor...we also had the occasional RUG deck but aggro was pretty much non-existent where I played.

Thus, I want to know how strong and prominent aggro looks to be so I can properly turn my deck against it(which means adding more removal to my main deck.)

If you want to know what my deck looked like pre-bans, here it is..

Lands:
4x Inkmoth Nexus
4x Creeping Tar-Pit
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacombs
5x Island
5x Swamp

Creatures:
4x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
4x Phyrexian Crusader

Other Spells:
2x Jace Beleren
2x Corrupted Conscience
2x Black Sun's Zenith
4x Preordain
4x Despise
2x Corrupted Resolve
4x Mana Leak
4x Tumble Magnet
4x Contagion Clasp

As you can see, that deck may not be in the best spot against creature-heavy strategies and thus I want to know if I now need to alter it to better handle decks that play lots of creatures or if I can just side extra removal and call it a day?

Zocelot

2011-06-25, 10:18 PM

In an EDH game:

Me: *Cast a Sheoldred, Whispering One*
Opponent: "Dude, Sheoldred is completely OP"
Me: "Praetors gonna praet"

BladeofOblivion

2011-06-25, 10:20 PM

In an EDH game:

Me: *Cast a Sheoldred, Whispering One*
Opponent: "Dude, Sheoldred is completely OP"
Me: "Praetors gonna praet"

*Slaps*

That's for the pun.

*Hugs*

That's for the laugh. :smalltongue:

MammonAzrael

2011-06-25, 10:23 PM

Well I'd certainly want several Go for the Throats, as they are a good way to deal with Deceiver Exarch, which you must be able to deal with.

Personally, I'd be inclined to start with Kibler's old UB Infect deck (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=807850) and move from there (incorporating NPH, of course).

Expect to see large amounts of aggro, Valakut, and Exarch/Twin. You won't be seeing much control until the format is more well defined.

Maho-Tsukai

2011-06-25, 10:27 PM

Yeah, as I said, twin was never a big deal in my local meta pre-ban as my meta WAS CawBlade. Literally about at the absolute least 95% of the decks you would be facing would be CawBlade and the other times you would be facing either RUG or some W/X(or in some cases mono W) deck that looked to abuse Giddeon. But CawBlade was the norm and thus I built around facing that.

Also, would adding spellskites be of any use to me? I know they can work wonders against the Exarch-twin combo and I've had the privlage of pulling a few from some New Phyrexia boosters.

Sohala

2011-06-25, 10:52 PM

Spellskite sounds like a viable choice to me, fills in a blocker slot and helps with creature protection.

Both are probably too slow, but viral drake and prototype portal might fit. The first giving another blocker and infecter, the second allowing the spam of spellskites and tumble magnets.

MammonAzrael

2011-06-25, 10:57 PM

It'd certainly be worth trying. They also make a solid speed bump for RDW and Vamps.

Lhurgyof

2011-06-26, 12:06 AM

Can anyone think of a simple infinite mana combo? I wanted to build a deck that wins with Helix Pinnacle, and the only one I could think of was 3 in mana myr and two galvanisers.

Myr Retriever x 2
Ashnod's Altar
Genesis Chamber

Or substitute Mycosynth Golem with the chamber.

Tao the Ninja

2011-06-26, 06:43 PM

Also, there is some very effective mill hate in the format right now (e.g. Kozilek)

I am consideing building a mill deck when M12 comes out, and let me assure you that I am going to include at least one or two Nihil Spellbombs in the main so as to not just fold to Blightsteel/Eldrazi.