Small Giant Dwarf

[Curmudgeon]

Charging is the most straightforward approach to making an effective melee character. I've been thinking through some approaches to make a stand-and-fight character effective, particularly ways to work with Dwarven Defender (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dwarvenDefender.htm). That's a fairly dreadful prestige class on its own; needed for it to function are three things:

a way to get enemies to come to you;
the ability to attack them when they do so; and
surviving those attacks.
Assuming points #1 and #3 are covered (Knight class abilities for #1, and a combination of mountain plate (via Dwarven Armor Proficiency) and an Antimagic Field effect for #3), I'm working on #2. A character who can't move is useless in melee if enemies can attack outside their reach, or if they can't do enough damage to get the job done. The best answer for both of these points is larger size (more Strength, greater reach). But you've got to be a Dwarf, and protecting against magical attacks means no Enlarge Person.

So here's what I've come up with. First, the race, type, and size:

Start with a vanilla Dwarf character: Humanoid (Dwarf).
Add Enlarge Person to become Large, temporarily.
While the spell is active, acquire the Dustform (Sandstorm) and Incarnate Construct (Savage Species) templates. The resulting creature has all its listed racial traits stripped away, but the subtype remains unchanged. Other characteristics are instantaneously set depending on creature size (Large at the time Incarnate Construct was acquired), including Neutral alignment and type Giant. The expiration of Enlarge Person doesn't change a creature's type, so the resulting creature will be Giant (Dwarf), of Medium size.
Next, add the Stonebone acquired template (Dragon # 350, page 36) to get Powerful Build. (You'll see why later.)
Finally, the Return to Nature Druid spell (from Eberron Campaign Setting, pages 114-115), when applied to a creature of the Giant type, acts as an instantaneous Reduce Person, and their size becomes Small: a Small Giant (Dwarf). (No, this step isn't necessary for a stand-and-fight character, but the idea is amusing and I really like working through the consequences; see below.)
Second, the classes:

Fighter 2
Stoneblessed 3, bonded to Goliaths: the character is considered a Goliath, and qualifies for Goliath racial substitution levels.
Barbarian x, with Goliath Barbarian substitution level 1: lose rage; gain Mountain Rage.
When he rages, his size category increases to Large. (Although his size category increases by one step, the goliath barbarian’s height only increases by a foot or so ... so his equipment still fits normally.) This change increases the barbarian’s space and reach to 10 feet and applies a –1 penalty on attack rolls and to AC. However, he does not gain additional benefits on weapon size and grapple checks, since he already has them from his powerful build ability.
...
Mountain rage replaces the standard barbarian’s rage ability,
Knight y, after an alignment change to Lawful. That's just a bit tricky, because a Barbarian who becomes lawful loses their rage ability. However, rage was replaced, and ex-Barbarians don't incur any loss of Mountain Rage. This will have to pass DM scrutiny, of course, but it's within the letter of the RAW.
Dwarven Defender z

Assuming all this merits DM approval, there are some obvious questions about exactly how Mountain Rage works with a Small character. The ability explicitly states its effect on size (becomes Large) and reach (becomes 10'), though there's a parenthetical note that this is one step of increase; I'm taking both points as working exactly as stated. The authors chose to express these racial substitution level benefits in absolute terms, after they explicitly mentioned (in the preface, page 145) the Stoneblessed PrC as opening substitution levels up to other races. If it works for a Small Humanoid Gnome, it works for a Small Giant Dwarf.

What size weapons can the character use?. The unstated assumption is the character is a Medium size Goliath (not a Small Dwarf), wielding Large weapons. What's the impact of Powerful Build? A Dwarf doesn't normally have Powerful Build, though I've shown how that can be accomplished. What's your opinion on how Mountain Rage would work both with and without Powerful Build? I don't think that would invalidate the "does not gain additional benefits on weapon size" clause and allow the use of Huge weapons with Monkey Grip instead, but it's fun to contemplate. :smallamused:

A Small Giant Dwarf who annoys you to the point you disregard all other targets, and smacks you hard with an impressively large weapon when you approach, really tickles my fancy.

[Big Fau]

Just FYI: Antimagic Fields make it harder for you to survive (since they shut off your magic items too). And it negates your Enlarge Person spell.

The Dustform Template also has this really big weakness called a Critical Hit with a Bludgeoning Weapon.

Third, I think there are some major holes in the whole Small-sized Dwarf with the Giant type (namely ability score bonuses that you lose out on). Namely that size alterations don't stack (and Enlarge/Reduce Person negate each other automatically).

Finally, Size Categories are almost required for a noncaster melee tank.

[IthroZada]

Just FYI: Antimagic Fields make it harder for you to survive (since they shut off your magic items too). And it negates your Enlarge Person spell.

The Dustform Template also has this really big weakness called a Critical Hit with a Bludgeoning Weapon.

Third, I think there are some major holes in the whole Small-sized Dwarf with the Giant type (namely ability score bonuses that you lose out on). Namely that size alterations don't stack (and Enlarge/Reduce Person negate each other automatically).

Finally, Size Categories are almost required for a noncaster melee tank.

You missed a few steps there. He puts on Enlarge Person, and then becomes a Dustform, so he can be a large Dustform, and then he stops being a Dustform to become an Incarnate Construct. This makes him permanently large without the spell (with the giant type), and he is no longer a Dustform.

Edit: To clarify, neither the antimagic field or the reduce person cancel the enlarge person, because it turned off long ago. And he will no longer be vulnerable to those bludgeon crits, due to no longer being a dustform.

[Curmudgeon]

IthroZada covered most of what you overlooked.

Finally, Size Categories are almost required for a noncaster melee tank.
That's the main point here. I'm trying to get a size boost without magic, and it's also good to be smaller to move along in tight dungeon spaces when not fighting. (A character like this suffers some from having no personal magical boosts, but enemy casters suffer much more. Antimagic Field shuts down nearly all magical attacks, and I'll happily build a tank character with only nonmagical enhancements like from adamantine if I can ignore enemy magic.)

Dwarven Defender requires that you stand in one place and fight. Having Knight's Test of Mettle lets you taunt all your enemies into attacking you. Being larger gives you the reach to hit them when they try to hit you. So that, in principle, all synergizes.

There are only a few other things I know about that also work with a stand-and-fight character. Knockback (Races of Stone, page 142) is useful because it lets you bull rush with your weapon instead of your body, and you don't move with the enemy you push back. Normally this feat requires you to be Large (which you are temporarily while in Mountain Rage), but Goliaths with Powerful Build also qualify.
This makes him permanently large without the spell (with the giant type), and he is no longer a Dustform. I think you got a little confused there. Dustform doesn't do anything to set your size, so it still drops from Large to Medium when Enlarge Person expires. The size drops still further (an instantaneous effect) when Return to Nature is cast. So the character will always be a Giant in type, but Small in size most of the time. Mountain Rage will cause a boost to Large in battle.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Honestly, Curmudgeon, I think it would be easier to grab a stronger/larger race and then go Stoneblessed (Dwarf) to qualify for Dwarven Defender. Another idea is to use Bloodstorm Blade to deal with reach.

[TroubleBrewing]

I read the OP and was SO EXCITED because this is seriously the most ridiculous thing ever. It's better than the psionic sandwich, honestly. I was so excited to tell all of my friends about this ludicrous build, aaaaaaaand then this happened. :smallannoyed:


Honestly, Curmudgeon, I think it would be easier to grab a stronger/larger race and then go Stoneblessed (Dwarf) to qualify for Dwarven Defender.

:smallfrown:

All of the wind just blew right out of my sails. Why you gotta kill the fun?

Needlessly complicated hilarious builds are awesome. Simplifying them makes them less funny. :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

Honestly, Curmudgeon, I think it would be easier to grab a stronger/larger race and then go Stoneblessed (Dwarf) to qualify for Dwarven Defender.
I did consider that, but wasn't happy with the LA and RHD consequences of picking a Large base race. I can see buying off LA +2 for Stonebone; that's done at level 9. But the options for Large races aren't looking very good. Stoneblessed requires a Giant, Humanoid, or Monstrous Humanoid creature. There aren't any Large Humanoids. Looking for Large Monstrous Humanoids I found things like Minotaur: +2 LA and 6 RHD. That's the same LA as for Stonebone (of course losing out on Powerful Build); but it's 6 levels lost to RHD which also means LA buyoff is more expensive, starting at ECL 12. :smallmad:

What would you suggest for a Large (tall, not long) base race?

[TroubleBrewing]

What would you suggest for a Large (tall, not long) base race?

I'm AFB, but would Half-Giant work for this? :smallconfused:

[Curmudgeon]

I'm AFB, but would Half-Giant work for this? :smallconfused:
No, Half-Giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) are Medium size, for +1 LA.

[TroubleBrewing]

No, Half-Giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) are Medium size, for +1 LA.

Ah. Powerful Build doesn't get you what you need?

If it's just Large size you're after, go for Half-Minotaur.

If it's Large size and the Giant subtype... Ogre, maybe?

(Still AFB. Still just pulling crap out of thin air. :smalltongue:)

[Curmudgeon]

Ah. Powerful Build doesn't get you what you need?

If it's just Large size you're after, go for Half-Minotaur.

If it's Large size and the Giant subtype... Ogre, maybe?
Powerful Build lets you use larger weapons; that doesn't help any with reach.

Half-Minotaur is a LA+1 template (Dragon # 313), which would work with various base races, including Dwarf. That's probably the simplest solution all around, if I'm willing to give up on both Powerful Build and being compact outside of combat. (I guess I could have Reduce Person, maybe even as a permanent spell, that would be switched off via the Antimagic Field device. That causes logistical problems, though. I'd need Monkey Grip just to be able to use a Large size weapon most of the time, and could only carry, not use, a Large off-hand weapon while reduced; Monkey Grip doesn't apply there. :smallsigh:)

Giant type itself doesn't give me much; it was specifically to make Return to Nature cause a reduction to Small size; that's the key to the Small Giant Dwarf. I was just tickled at the idea of gaining two size categories in combat, with no magic.

[TroubleBrewing]

If you're willing to sprinkle a little crazy dust around, go Stoneboned Half-Minotaur Dwarf.

Whaaaaat

Now you're large-sized, powerfully built, and you qualify for Deepwarden/Dwarven Defender.

You're like the Great Wall of China, if it were made of Dwarven Constitution.

[NeoSeraphi]

I don't understand. Why do you need Powerful Build? Can't you just get a Large-sized Weapon with the Sizing Enhancement? Sure, it will turn off if someone dispels you, but then you're raging and you're Large so it doesn't matter.

Edit: Also, guys, come on now. He clearly doesn't want the Half-Minotaur template. Who in their right mind would want a +12 untyped Strength bonus that can't be dispelled for a melee fighter? He wants survivability and reach here, the free natural attack and scent qualities would just get in the way. And that +1 LA is pesky. I mean, sure, he's a Defender, but is that bonus to his Natural Armor really worth losing a point of BAB over? LA is even more deadly to fighters than it is to casters.

[TroubleBrewing]

Edit: Also, guys, come on now. He clearly doesn't want the Half-Minotaur template. Who in their right mind would want a +12 untyped Strength bonus that can't be dispelled for a melee fighter? He wants survivability and reach here, the free natural attack and scent qualities would just get in the way. And that +1 LA is pesky. I mean, sure, he's a Defender, but is that bonus to his Natural Armor really worth losing a point of BAB over? LA is even more deadly to fighters than it is to casters.

I would have laughed at this, but I've heard a player give reasons similar to this for why he didn't want the template on his sword-and-board Fighter.

[NeoSeraphi]

I would have laughed at this, but I've heard a player give reasons similar to this for why he didn't want the template on his sword-and-board Fighter.

I...that's...I'm so sorry.

[TroubleBrewing]

I...that's...I'm so sorry.

Yeah. He objects to the Magic-Blooded template for Bards on the grounds that it "sounds like it was meant for arcane magic only, not divine magic."

So wrong on so many levels.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't understand. Why do you need Powerful Build?
I'm guessing how to interpret the Mountain Rage substitution level feature with a Small Dwarf, since it was intended for a Medium Goliath. They refer to Powerul Build as a condition/limitation of weapon size benefits, so it's just guesswork how this feature works without Powerful Build. Adding Powerful Build through another means means less DM push-back when trying to make the Mountain Rage (nonmagical boost from Small to Large size) part of the build fly.

That increase of 2 size categories when changing from non-combat to combat status is the attraction here. Generally when an enemy spellcaster sees tank characters ballooning in size, Dispel Magic is a likely response. For the Small Giant Dwarf Dispel Magic, and most magics generally, will do: precisely nothing. Walking around with an Antimagic Field while seeming to be a good and easy target for a spellcaster is an excellent way to put the suck on the enemy's action economy. Just walking around as a Large character isn't nearly as good for that purpose. As the old British Royal Navy toast goes: "Confusion to our enemies!"

[Gwendol]

I'd love to read the fluff around the conception of that character... :smallsmile:

[Curmudgeon]

I'd love to read the fluff around the conception of that character... :smallsmile:
Uh ... a Druid did it? The explicit requirement of Incarnate Construct is that it's imposed by a spellcaster, and Return to Nature is a Druid-only spell.

[The Random NPC]

On the one hand, RAI seems to be one size increase. On the other hand, you're playing a Dwarven Defender. I guess if I was DMing, I would go with the option that would match the OP level of the group. All else being equal though, I would lean to one size increase for Powerful Build and Mountain Rage. I would also lean towards Mountain Rage Having no effect on your weapon, so while your reach would increase (if going from Medium to Large) you would take penalities from wielding Medium weapons.

TLDR; My interpretation is this character can wield Medium weapons and Powerful Build makes you count as Medium. Unless you're in a High OP party.

[Gwendol]

I was referring mostly to the dwarf half-minotaur...

[TroubleBrewing]

On the one hand, RAI seems to be one size increase.

RAW is clear: Mountain Rage makes you large sized.

[The Random NPC]

RAW is clear: Mountain Rage makes you large sized.

That is very clear, which is why I didn't address it.

[TroubleBrewing]

That is very clear, which is why I didn't address it.

Emphasis mine.

... Wasn't your entire post about how "This character can wield Medium weapons and Powerful Build makes you count as Medium"?

Which, if you assume that Mountain Rage RAW clearly states that you become Large sized, would be totally wrong?

Or am I missing something? :smallconfused: (It is rather late...)

[The Random NPC]

I was addressing how I would rule it if I were to DM, i.e. how I would interprete RAW. If that was unclear, I will look over my post and try to clarify it.

[TroubleBrewing]

I was addressing how I would rule it if I were to DM, i.e. how I would interprete RAW. If that was unclear, I will look over my post and try to clarify it.

No, you were perfectly clear.

The part I'm confused on is the part I bolded.

You don't interpret RAW. That's sort of the point. You take it exactly as written. No interp needed.

[The Random NPC]

When I play the game, I try to find out what was intended and what makes sense. After all going strictly by RAW, you can heal yourself by drowning. It seems to me Mountain Rage was ment to make you a Large character to match your Powerful Build, so if you were Small sized, I would rule that you would increase in size to Medium while rageing.

[TroubleBrewing]

But it doesn't say "increase one size category". It states, in no uncertain terms, that when you rage, you Mountain Rage become Large sized.

Plus, most TO work cares nothing for RAI and worships RAW.

That's a totally separate argument, and totally unnecessary here: It says you become Large sized.

[The Random NPC]

I see, I thought the build was for use in game. You are correct, my statements do not belong here.

[KillianHawkeye]

I don't think you should count on getting Mountain Rage when you should be losing your ability to Rage from becoming Lawful. Mountain Rage clearly functions as Rage except for the size increase. Just because the name is different doesn't mean that you shouldn't lose it.

It wouldn't fly in one of my games is all I'm saying.

[Gwendol]

In the description of Mountain rage it says "When he rages, his size category increases to Large.". If he can't rage he can't increase in size.

I read it the same way.

That said, I think the Knight/Dwarven defender combo is solid for a dwarf: just give him a reach weapon and a homebrewed size increased/day item (since the belt of growth sucks) and you're all set. Even the feat reqs for the PrC aren't all wasted.

[Amphetryon]

Out of curiosity, why is Wild Dwarf (Races of Faerun) not a good candidate for this? They start out as Small Size, without a STR penalty.

[Curmudgeon]

Out of curiosity, why is Wild Dwarf (Races of Faerun) not a good candidate for this? They start out as Small Size, without a STR penalty.
A significant difficulty with a normal Small size Dwarf is that their base speed will be only 20', and with mountain plate that's reduced to 10'. (Mountain plate is special extra-heavy armor that affects even Dwarves, and reduces everyone's speed by 50%.) Going through the Dustform - Incarnate Construct - Return to Nature process results in a Small Dwarf with a 40' base speed. While the character is intended to stand in one place and fight there, getting to the right fighting spot is fairly important. An ideal location will be a choke point with nearby walls; that way even those who resist your Knight's Challenge will have to come near, and Dungeon Crasher + Knockback will let you knock enemies into those walls with your weapon, and deal extra damage in the process. If you only move 20' as a full round action you're not going to reach a good defensive position before the battle's over. :smallfrown:

Also, if going for a natively Small Dwarf, a Korobokuru from Oriental Adventures (penalty to INT) is a better choice than Wild Dwarf (penalty to CHA); use of Knight's Challenge is determined by your CHA bonus.