Medium Saves?

[SlashRunner]

We have good saves and bad saves, but are there any medium saves? Namely, you end up with +9 at 20th level? It seems logical for them to exist.

[Chess435]

No they don't. But if they did, they'd probably be 1 + .4 per level.

[Godskook]

Some classes have psuedo-medium saves, such as the Scout with its Battle Fortitude.

[Runestar]

I can imagine the progression to be fairly awkward.

Wizard might count, their familiar can grant +2 to a particular save. :smallwink:

Warblades add int to reflex saves. Paladins add cha to all saves. What does this make them?

[ffone]

Some classes have psuedo-medium saves, such as the Scout with its Battle Fortitude.

Ya. Swashbuckler is similar with reflex, +1 at 2nd, 11th, 20th to end up halfway between.

If you are homebrewing, I suggest: average poor and good tracks, rounding down. Will go from 1 to 9 alternating +1 per 2 or 3 levels.

[KoboldCleric]

SWd20 (also by WoTC, the release of which was just before 3.0 and then revised just before 3.5) has such progressions. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to steal those progressions for homebrew either.

[Zherog]

d20 Modern (and its related SRD) also has a medium save progression. You can find one copy of it here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/modern/smack/srdhome.html). If anybody is seriously interested, I have the official rtf files WotC originally released and could make arrangements to forward them to you.

Pedantic note for those who may care: Sites such as d20srd.org are not the official SRD. The official SRD is a series of RTF files released by WotC along with the Open Gaming License. The terms of the OGL, however, allowed sites such as d20srd.org (and a whole slew of others) to put all the rules up on the internet for free. d20srd.org also took the Open Game Content from Unearthed Arcana and included that on their site. Finally, they took the step of applying errata to the material -- but note that errata is not Open Game Content.

Most people won't really give a dire rat's hairy ass about this pedantic difference. However, if you're interested in actually publishing, you might want to track down a copy of the official SRD to make use of, rather than relying on the material on a website. Whether you actually want to or not would be something to discuss with your lawyer.

[FMArthur]

A more 'exactly' medium save relative to the defaults of 0 + 1/3 * LV and 2 + 1/2 * LV would be 1 + 2/5 * LV.

The progression from 1-20 would be this:
1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9

So despite the comparatively odd-looking formula it's a fairly easy pattern to follow, really.

But who do you give it to? Do you bump some up from bad saves and some down from good?

[SlashRunner]

Looking at base classes, I'd bump down Cleric's fort to medium, boost Paladin's will to Medium, reduce one of Monk's saves (probably fort), reduce Bard's ref to medium, increase Barbarian's ref to medium, etc...

[Ernir]

d20 Modern (and its related SRD) also has a medium save progression. You can find one copy of it here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/modern/smack/srdhome.html). If anybody is seriously interested, I have the official rtf files WotC originally released and could make arrangements to forward them to you.

Pedantic note for those who may care: Sites such as d20srd.org are not the official SRD. The official SRD is a series of RTF files released by WotC along with the Open Gaming License. The terms of the OGL, however, allowed sites such as d20srd.org (and a whole slew of others) to put all the rules up on the internet for free. d20srd.org also took the Open Game Content from Unearthed Arcana and included that on their site. Finally, they took the step of applying errata to the material -- but note that errata is not Open Game Content.

Most people won't really give a dire rat's hairy ass about this pedantic difference. However, if you're interested in actually publishing, you might want to track down a copy of the official SRD to make use of, rather than relying on the material on a website. Whether you actually want to or not would be something to discuss with your lawyer.


For what it's worth: The RTF files are still available on the WotC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srdarchive). They're just a bit hidden.

[Fax Celestis]

I can imagine the progression to be fairly awkward.


Not really. (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqvG3gSGuF7dFlzT0RVMmpnZVV0NzZEd1FlSVpFe UE&hl=en_US&authkey=CJ3xutYJ)


A more 'exactly' medium save relative to the defaults of 0 + 1/3 * LV and 2 + 1/2 * LV would be 1 + 2/5 * LV.

I prefer 7/5 + (2/5 * LV), which comes out to:
1 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 7 7 7 8 8 9 9

[FMArthur]

Because I'm bored, I just decided to go through some books and "update" base classes for Medium saves on the off chance that people actually decide to use them. While I did generally improve weak classes and weaken strong classes, only changes towards Medium were made, and if it didn't make sense to me with the flavor designed with the class I didn't make a change - even if the class needed it. This is adaptation more than rebalancing; you're on your own for real and proper balance.

{table=head]Class|F|R|W
Barbarian |G|M|B
Bard |B|G|G
Cleric |M|B|G
Druid |M|B|M
Fighter |G|M|M
Monk |G|G|G
Paladin |G|B|M
Ranger |M|G|M
Rogue |B|G|B
Sorcerer |B|B|G
Wizard |B|B|M
|
Shaman |B|M|G
Sohei |G|M|G
|
Healer |G|M|G
Marshal |B|M|G
|
Hexblade |M|B|G
Samurai |G|M|M
Swashbuckler |G|M|B
|
Warlock |B|M|G
Warmage |M|B|G
Wu Jen |B|B|G
|
Ninja |B|G|M
Scout |M|G|B
Spellthief |B|M|G
|
Favored Soul |G|M|G
Shugenja |B|B|G
Spirit Shaman |B|B|G
|
Psion |B|B|G
Psychic Warrior |G|B|B
Soulknife |M|G|G
Wilder |M|B|G
Psychic Rogue |B|G|B
|
Artificer |B|B|M
|
Incarnate |G|B|G
Soulborn |G|M|M
Totemist |G|M|B
|
Archivist |M|B|M
Dread Necromancer|B|B|G
|
Binder |G|B|M
Shadowcaster |G|B|G
Truenamer |M|M|G
|
Ardent |M|B|G
Divine Mind |G|M|G
Erudite |B|B|M
Lurk |B|G|G
|
Beguiler |B|B|G
Dragon Shaman |G|M|G
Duskblade |M|M|G
Knight |M|B|G
|
Crusader |G|B|B
Swordsage |B|G|G
Warblade |G|B|B
|
Dragonfire Adept|G|B|G
|
Factotum |B|M|M[/table]

Ranger, Duskblade, and Factotum each had a good save reduced and a bad save improved, making them the only ones changed in the conversion that weren't nerfs or buffs. Classes are listed by date as well as I can remember. You're on your own for variants and prestige classes. NPC classes should remain the same; there's no real point to sacrificing their simplicity, especially for DMs making dudes on the fly.

[SlashRunner]

Dude, thanks! That saves (no pun intended) me from the trouble of doing it myself. This shall now be a new houserule in all my campaigns.

[Flame of Anor]

I think it's kind of bogus to nerf the Wizard's Will save. Sure, the Wizard is Tier 1, but that's really not the way to balance it out, especially because it makes complete sense for someone who trains his/her mind as much as a Wizard does to have a strong Will save.

[SlashRunner]

Yeah, I didn't like that part, as well as Warblade and Crusader getting medium fort.

[FMArthur]

Wizard, Erudite, and Achivist all got the same treatment for the same reasons. They shape the world from long hours of study, not from forcing the world to bend to their mighty will. They're basically scholars, and while few would become weak of will for it, it makes sense (in fantasy archetype land) that they would not have as strong a will as those who are incredibly devoted to a cause or those who use their force of mind like weapons in battle. You could argue against poorer saves for any character (why should this Rogue have poor fortitute or will or whatever) but I'm just adhering to the most generic archetypes that the classes seem to be designed with as well as I can.

Warblade and Crusader I felt had been wronged by lack of Reflex and Will, respectively, but I didn't really want to buff strong T3 and aboves. No real harm done; just sub in your own however you like as you implement it it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wizard, Erudite, and Achivist all got the same treatment for the same reasons. They shape the world from long hours of study, not from forcing the world to bend to their mighty will. They're basically scholars, and while few would become weak of will for it, it makes sense (in fantasy archetype land) that they would not have as strong a will as those who are incredibly devoted to a cause or those who use their force of mind like weapons in battle. You could argue against poorer saves for any character (why should this Rogue have poor fortitute or will or whatever) but I'm just adhering to the most generic archetypes that the classes seem to be designed with as well as I can.

Um, wut? You think reading a lot of books is enough to make the universe bend to you?

[FMArthur]

Yeah. They learn how to do magic, and aren't acolytes or wild mages whose devotion or force of personality fuels their powers. I'm sorry if that conflicts with the fluff you've made up on your own for them. :smallconfused:

[Ernir]

Um, wut? You think reading a lot of books is enough to make the universe bend to you?

No, they have to be books on magic. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Warblade and Crusader I felt had been wronged by lack of Reflex and Will, respectively, but I didn't really want to buff strong T3 and aboves.Well, they both get to add tertiary stat to their respective save.

Would the medium save progression replace or stack with scout's Battle Fortitude, swashbuckler's Grace and the like?

[FMArthur]

Well, they both get to add tertiary stat to their respective save.
D'oh! I can't believe I forgot about that. It was late at night for me and I often forget Martial Adepts' non-maneuver class features. :smallredface: Shoulda known the best designed classes in the game would have uncorrectable design. Okay, I'm gonna readjust that back to default. (Just so there's no confusion after I revert them: I had Warblade with M/M/B and M/B/M before this post.)


Would the medium save progression replace or stack with scout's Battle Fortitude, swashbuckler's Grace and the like?
Stack. A better substitution would have been to just give them good saves in place of either, but for simplicity (of the chart) I'm just listing them this way so as to not involve class features in the adjustment.

[Draz74]

I see a Good Will Save for Paladins. While that's a popular houserule, it's a houserule, and not one that falls under the category of "changing saves to Medium progression." :smalltongue:

[FMArthur]

I see a Good Will Save for Paladins. While that's a popular houserule, it's a houserule, and not one that falls under the category of "changing saves to Medium progression." :smalltongue:
I just sprayed my drink all over my screen. This revelation shatters my worldview.