View Full Version : A new use for Hybrid Talent [Homebrew/houserule concept]
Fortuna
2011-06-16, 08:27 AM
It's really simple. You know how striker|striker builds suck? I'd prefer if they didn't. Hence, my suggestion is that one allow Hybrid Talent to, in place of any of its usual benefits, allow powers from one of your classes as counting as being powers from the other. As an example, suppose that you're a rogue|fighter, and you want sneak attack on your fighter attacks. With my method, you take Hybrid Talent and treat your fighter powers as rogue powers for all intents and purposes, including sneak attack (but excluding power selection, obviously). Your rogue powers still don't count as fighter powers, so you can't use a rogue power to get your marks, but you can sneak attack with fighter powers now.
Now, the worry that I have is that this would be overpowered. Am I right? If I'm not, is it actually underpowered?
Kurald Galain
2011-06-16, 08:36 AM
Your rogue powers still don't count as fighter powers,
It seems to me that a character who uses this talent would, then, avoid using rogue attack powers as much as possible.
So basically, you're making a fighter that gets sneak attack instead of his regular fighter class features. That doesn't strike me as overpowered. There may be some odd combos that I'm overlooking, but fundamentally I don't think it's a problem.
Fortuna
2011-06-16, 08:56 AM
The issue that came to mind is, in fact, the original situation for which this was designed (weird, no?). Striker|striker builds can get very nice damage out of this, and I'm not sure if it's too nice. For instance, a rogue|sorcerer can use this to get Dex twice to all rogue power damage, or sneak attack on sorcerer powers in addition to the normal boost.
Kurald Galain
2011-06-16, 09:08 AM
For instance, a rogue|sorcerer can use this to get Dex twice to all rogue power damage, or sneak attack on sorcerer powers in addition to the normal boost.
True enough, but the rogue is giving up his Brutal Scoundrel damage bonus and +1 to hit with daggers, whereas the sorcerer gives up his soul feature and the damage bonus from Staff of Ruin. It's not a bad trade, but it doesn't strike me as overpowered.
Loren
2011-06-16, 10:22 AM
What about combining striker damage bonuses. For instance I'd presume one couldn't Sneak Attack and Fury of Blows off of the same standard action.
Hidden Sanity
2011-06-16, 11:44 AM
Hybrid striker features already only work on their native class powers, so that's not an issue in this scenario.
Fortuna
2011-06-17, 05:07 AM
What about combining striker damage bonuses. For instance I'd presume one couldn't Sneak Attack and Fury of Blows off of the same standard action.
That's exactly what I'm saying you could do.
Hybrid striker features already only work on their native class powers, so that's not an issue in this scenario.
Well, it is, because what I'm doing is making the other half of the striker count as native class powers.
Hidden Sanity
2011-06-17, 12:19 PM
Yeah, that was my bad... not entirely certain what went through my brain there, all I know is I made that post shortly before my unplanned nap... so can I blame my sleep disorder on that one? No? Ah well. Sorry anyway.
I never really noticed striker|striker builds sucking.
You do have to pick non-standard action attacks to make them decent, but ...
Kurald Galain
2011-06-20, 10:22 AM
I never really noticed striker|striker builds sucking.
Well, they don't necessarily suck, but (1) many people want to play one to use both striker features on the same attack, before realizing that they don't actually do that; and (2) their striker features don't apply to basic attacks, which can be problematic if you like OAs or have a warlord in the party.
Hidden Sanity
2011-06-20, 03:10 PM
Striker|Striker builds ... work well less often than other combonations... although there's many that work well. Avenger|Monk mesh fairly well and give you a versitile play-style, a Ranger|Rogue/Spiked Chain training gets a bit cheesy with all the minor action attacks letting you double-dip your striker features, but a striker|Striker build requres a bit more thought than some other hybrids, as it's harder to get a whole greater than the sum of it's parts.
Well, they don't necessarily suck, but (1) many people want to play one to use both striker features on the same attack, before realizing that they don't actually do that; and (2) their striker features don't apply to basic attacks, which can be problematic if you like OAs or have a warlord in the party.
(2) should be fixed by creating a pair (quad?) of at-wills that each Hybrid gets.
Rogue's Melee Basic Attack + Rogue 1 Attack
... (boilerplate copy/paste of basic attack here
Special: This power counts as a Basic Attack. Abilities that modify basic attacks also modify this power.
Then the same for Ranged Basic Attack, etc.
And while "striker features" tend to be middle of the road in impact, the design decision is quite clear: you shouldn't be applying two of them at full-strength to one power.
And most strikers are a mixture of their power and feature in effectiveness.
Admittedly, using non-hybrid half-elf cheese, the most dangerous case (Avenger Oath + Twin Strike at-will) is doable by paragon. However, the above proposal would open that up at level 1 for the low-low cost of a single hybrid talent, on all races.
Loren
2011-06-22, 09:25 AM
typically, a feat would add what one or two points of damage to a typical attack. This feat would add 2d6 (or there abouts) so close to 6 points of damage to typical attacks. I'm afraid that's way beyond par for the course.
It's sad I know (I wanted to do the same thing once), but it would be really over powered.
If i wore looking for anything far for my hybrid striker (monk|ranger) I'd want to be about to take hybrid talent more than once.
Kurald Galain
2011-06-22, 10:36 AM
typically, a feat would add what one or two points of damage to a typical attack. This feat would add 2d6 (or there abouts) so close to 6 points of damage to typical attacks.
No, it would not.
That 2d6 only applies to the Rogue hybrid version, which requires (1) a light blade with lower damage dice, and (2) combat advantage. For other hybrids, the effect adds 1d6 for a minor action (e.g. ranger), or +3 (e.g. sorcerer).
But to see the full picture, you need to look at opportunity cost. For instance, a rogue could hybrid to ranger or warlock, and gain +1d6 on damage rolls. Or he could be a full rogue, gain +1 to-hit from his dagger class feature, gain +3 on damage from being a brutal scoundrel, and save his minor action for something else. The hybrid clearly does not have the advantage here.
That is a pretty bad comparison.
The opportunity cost of the feat isn't "rebuild your character completely differently as a pure Rogue" but rather "what other Hybrid talent feats".
Hybrid talent feats are generally stronger than most other feats. This often fills in gaps in characters (ie, stat-to-AC missing, or the like).
The biggest issue is, as I mentioned previously, avenger oath mixed with twin strike. This gives you 4 attack rolls at-will, giving even level 1 characters a 19% per-round crit chance (and almost 0.2 average crits-per-round).
Rogue backstab? Hunter's Quarry? Those are relatively minor things -- admittedly, at level 1, twin-strike with short swords is up to 6d6 damage (At 50% hit 5% crit rate, roughly 25% miss, 45% 5d6, 20% 6d6, 5% 30, 5% 36 = 15.375 DPR on an AC 21 target with CA. On an even-level monster with 15 AC we hit 4% miss, 27% single hit, 59% double hit, 5% single crit, 5% double crit for 20.415 DPR).
At higher levels, barring avenger oath, twin strike and the like, the problem isn't as large. But at level 1, this option could easily be dominant.
Fortuna
2011-06-27, 04:51 PM
Hmm. I can definitely see your point.
By my understanding, paragon hybriding is almost universally sub-par. What if this was added as a benefit of paragon hybriding? If you were to do that, would you put it at level 11 or 16?
Randomly built hybrids are sub-par compared to random non-hybrids.
High-end charop finds half-elf cheese more effective to combine two classes than hybrid usually. Hybrid is still used in some high-end charop to give access to 3 classes' class-specific feats (with the nerfing of the double-multiclass background).
Barring random builds (where you pick powers and the like nearly randomly), and high-end charop, there is a massive overlap between hybrid and non-hybrid power levels.
Hybrids are definitely more complex than non-hybrids to build, as you have less of a "safety net" under you design-wise.
What you describe is a bit of a trap, because you probably don't even realize that the "striker features" of most classes aren't their "extra die of damage" thing, insofar as "striker feature" means "what helps me make creatures die" at much beyond random-build levels.
The Ranger's striker feature is twin strike.
The Avenger's striker feature is the oath.
The Rogue's striker feature is high accuracy (and to a lesser extent, sneak attack)
The Infernal Warlock's striker feature is Hellish Rebuke.
The Sorcerer lacks a striker feature.
The barbarian's striker feature is a handful of really good encounter and daily powers.
So real balance problem with stacking features is the barbarian - avenger - ranger triplet. Twin strike + Oath is very strong. Oath+Barbarian encounter/daily powers is very strong.
However, probably at your table, the level of charop isn't high enough that this is a problem. (Note that extremely high charop isn't a good thing at a table: it is annoying in how it restricts what builds are practical, in my experience.)
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.