[3.5] yet another gestalt warlock

[Socratov]

Hi folks,

soon I'll be playing a gestalt warlock. the basic idea is that i want to make a pyromaniac hellfire warlock (CN, human) and crank out those d6's by making eldritch blasts. I don't want to melee (i don't like standing next to enemies), and would love some sniping/skirmishing build. I have thought about rogue and scout as options to include but I'd like to pick your brains on this matter. Improtant note: I won't need to make any items. We start at lvl 5 or 6, but will reach higher level and we need to select a flaw or trait without getting the bonuses for said flaw or trait for rolelaying purposes. Mine is (obviously) pyromaniac :smallbiggrin:

The abilityscore system is still up for debate, so what I'm looking for is a concept build.

Thusfar I had for lvl 5: warlock 5 // scout 5 or warlock 5 // human paragon 3/scout 2 (and similar builds with the rogue instead of scout) with a progression into hellfire warlock (at lvl 9) on the warlock side, and at lvl 9 1 lvl of binder for naberius on the scout/rogue side. I know rogue gives more dice, but those hare harder to trigger, scout gives less, but goes off at every round. To remedy this I have pondered both the ranged skirmisher and deadeye shot feats. I also pondered to take crossbow sniper, but that won't work with eldritch blast (not even with hideous blow). I will definately quicken my eldritch blast when the time comes, so I can EB, move and cast an invocation as well, will it be better to use my invocation of recasting invisibility so i can neak attack or should I still get scout? and should I include paragon class levels or not? (would help with moar skills and feats)

[only1doug]

How About Sneak Attack Variant Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter)

Attacks are still hard to trigger (as Rogue) but has better BAB and HD.

[Psyren]

I would also recommend Sneak Fighter over rogue, as you get most of the good skills from Warlock anyway (e.g. UMD), plus SF will give you a fort save to go with the reflex and will from lock.

If you decide to stick with Scout though you'll need mobility, so you definitely want Flyby Attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack) (Actually, you should pick that up for a blasty lock regardless.) Fell Flight gives you the prereq.

[Socratov]

that is a good idea, however i will miss skillpoints, seen as both lock and fighter have 2 skillpoints per level...

flyby attack is a good idea.. espially with scout and if I take improve skirmish from comp. scoundrel it will be even more devastating, ofcourse I will need the ranged skirmisher then...

[Fouredged Sword]

You need a 14 int, and that is about it. Hide, Move sci, UMD, and Bluff.

[awa]

ive got a rogue warlock multi class character and i find that tumbling through the opponents square and dropping marbles is a great way to make him flat footed.

and skills can be useful spot, listen, tumble and balance, spell craft (to get the most use out of detect magic) concentration (remember invocations provoke attacks of opportunity like spells) knowledge varies, sense motive it's easy to burn through all your skills real fast.

also their are a lot of spells that boost sneak attack allowing you to sneak undead, plants, constructs or at much longer range and you do have umd as a class skill.

bab is not as useful for a warlock because the elderich blasts are usually going to hit any way and the hit point difference between d6 and d10 is only 2 a level. so personally i think you will get more out of rogue levels then fighter

[Psyren]

Going rogue won't help his fort save though. And sure, he can get by with a lower AB, but more always helps - especially if he decides to shape Eldritch Glaive and wade into melee, he'll get all his iteratives this way and deal some crazy damage.

Another option is to put Binder on the other side. This will also help his HD and and fort save, plus allow him to bind Naberius to eliminate the Con damage from Hellfire Warlock. And best of all, he doesn't have to lose Sneak Attack to do it - all he has to do is bind Andromalius, which he can do at 5th-level (or even 3rd with Improved Binding.)

Binder gives very powerful buffs, e.g. immunity to energy drain/negative levels and permanent Mind Blank. Or he can enter Knight of the Sacred Seal and get to 16 BAB again, with all good saves, more HD and a massive bag of at-will tricks.

[Kylarra]

Delicious binders, is there anything they can't do?

[Psyren]

Delicious binders, is there anything they can't do?

[Obligatory Cinnamon Toast Crunch joke]

[Socratov]

Going rogue won't help his fort save though. And sure, he can get by with a lower AB, but more always helps - especially if he decides to shape Eldritch Glaive and wade into melee, he'll get all his iteratives this way and deal some crazy damage.

Another option is to put Binder on the other side. This will also help his HD and and fort save, plus allow him to bind Naberius to eliminate the Con damage from Hellfire Warlock. And best of all, he doesn't have to lose Sneak Attack to do it - all he has to do is bind Andromalius, which he can do at 5th-level (or even 3rd with Improved Binding.)

Binder gives very powerful buffs, e.g. immunity to energy drain/negative levels and permanent Mind Blank. Or he can enter Knight of the Sacred Seal and get to 16 BAB again, with all good saves, more HD and a massive bag of at-will tricks.

I had allready put binder in the off tree, though for 1 level. I want those extra dice per attack, since glaive is very risky or i will need a way to get a lot of hp and ac. so rogue it is, with the feat deadeye shot i will only need to delay my actions until someone else attacks. this way i can sneak attack ranged every round someone attacks someone... unless I pick scout with improved skirmish (yay double dice and ac bonus :smallsmile: ) but then the question, paragon levels or not?

and regarding the fort save, maybe i should work on a kill them before they kill me basis (will also take uncanny trickster at lvl 10-12 for the extra hellfire warlock dice) and for the rest stay clear from the alcohol (not my usual lifestyle, but ok :smalltongue:)...

[Re'ozul]

If you just want to blast evil people, I'd actually go for a CG Human.
Mostly because Hellfire Warlock doesn't have any Alignment Restrictions so you can play an antihero.
CG also enables you to go Enlightened Spirit (Complete Mage)
This is a terrible Warlock PrC with one great ability, it advances Eldritch blast (and gives some invocations) independantly from warlock progression.
So you could progress your warlock normally on one side and multiclass into Enlightened Spirit on the other for even more blast damage:

Warlock/Hellfire//X/Enlightened Spirit

Of course this doesn't work if the DM doesn't allow you cross-stream prerequisite fullfilment.

[Psyren]

As I said, you can do more than one level and bind Andromalius to keep your Sneak Attack. You get a little less dice but the abilities you gain from Vestiges and the Binder class-features themselves more than offset this.


and regarding the fort save, maybe i should work on a kill them before they kill me basis (will also take uncanny trickster at lvl 10-12 for the extra hellfire warlock dice) and for the rest stay clear from the alcohol (not my usual lifestyle, but ok :smalltongue:)...

Well, if you could reliably avoid getting hit by dangerous things, you wouldn't need saving throws at all. Still, the choice is yours :smalltongue:

I will point out that there are many enemies in the game sneak attack and skirmish won't work on, so devoting a whole side of your gestalt to this option may not be ideal.

Another option, if you have a good Charisma score, is Spellthief. You still get Sneak Attack, plus a number of utility effects, high skillpoints+trapfinding, and you get the ability to swipe enemy buffs/spells from your target with your eldritch blast even as you damage them.

[Socratov]

well, with flyby attack i could move in and out of the 30' line, minimizing chances, if i see somethingaiming for me i can fly over there and blast it. with wall of gloom i coudl forget about deadeye shot and just take concealment (whick is iirc enough for sneak attack). i wish there was a way for increasing sneak attack range -.-

[Fouredged Sword]

Sniper's shot spell. Make a wand full of it and snipe for full sneak attack at 250ft.

I, actualy, would suggest rogue / arcane spellcaster / unseen seerer or something like that for the other side. You get good skill points in the start and end don't loose your major skill specialties in the middle, and can pick up great spells like truestrike and such for that shoot that really has to hit.

Another option is rogue / Chameleon. Now you have access to most spells through 5th level and a free floating feat you can use to get any crafting feat any time you want it. You also have a boost to your to hit on any day you really need it. This really makes you good at just about everything, expecialy if you have warlock to carry your main abilities.

[conorwatches]

If you are looking for fire then why not a sorcerer/warlock? You would still have bad HP but you could have all kinds of fun with fireball! Also you could level into Eldritch Theurge. By 8th level you could have a brimstone eldritch blast that explodes into a fireball when it hits. That would be 4d6 fire from the E-blast and then another 8d6 to the first guy and everything else in 20ft!

[awa]

dual progression prestige classes are normally not allowed with gestalt

[Kaje]

If you just want to blast evil people, I'd actually go for a CG Human.
Mostly because Hellfire Warlock doesn't have any Alignment Restrictions so you can play an antihero.
CG also enables you to go Enlightened Spirit (Complete Mage)
This is a terrible Warlock PrC with one great ability, it advances Eldritch blast (and gives some invocations) independantly from warlock progression.
So you could progress your warlock normally on one side and multiclass into Enlightened Spirit on the other for even more blast damage:

Warlock/Hellfire//X/Enlightened Spirit

Of course this doesn't work if the DM doesn't allow you cross-stream prerequisite fullfilment.
In gestalt, identical class features on either side progress only at the more rapid rate, so you'd only get EB from either warlock or enlightened spirit.

[Re'ozul]

In gestalt, identical class features on either side progress only at the more rapid rate, so you'd only get EB from either warlock or enlightened spirit.

So If you Gestalt two ToB classes only one side gets maneuvers?
Gestalt sorc and Cleric and only one side gets spellcasting?
While your argument is possibly valid, someone who takes Enlightened Spirit basically takes a crappy PrC to increase an overall weak aspect of the original class. I don't think that would be too much to ask of the DM.

[Seerow]

Is there any reason gestalting Ranger wouldn't work? You get more skillpoints, the higher fort, and archery support, which I believe would work with the ranged touch attacks from eldritch blast, though I'm not sure on the interraction with the ranger's archery spells. But if it does work with the archery spells, you could go for the ACFs that boost ranger casting for the extra spells per day/access to all arcane spells, to supplement your skills (warning this pretty much requires dragon magazine material). You could also go swift hunter and nab that skirmish damage to mix in as well.

edit: Wow I apparently misremembered which feats a ranger gets. Rapidshot and Manyshot I'm pretty sure are going to be useless to you, so it may not be as good of a fit as I thought.

[BillyBobJoe]

So If you Gestalt two ToB classes only one side gets maneuvers?
Gestalt sorc and Cleric and only one side gets spellcasting?
While your argument is possibly valid, someone who takes Enlightened Spirit basically takes a crappy PrC to increase an overall weak aspect of the original class. I don't think that would be too much to ask of the DM.

Your first two points are incorrect, as the different sets of manuevers and spells are different. Are Swordsages and Warblades the same thing? No. Same with the cleric and the wizard.

Anyways, I believe you are allowed to syncopate the levels so you would gain +1d6 EB every level by delaying one of the classes levels, similar to how you could have two 1/2 casting PrCs gestalted (if allowed by the DM) and offset them to gain full casting.

[Socratov]

so, I have been tinkering with it (no double prestigeclasses, and offset eldritch blast gains)) i get to warlock 17/hellfire warlock 3 || scout 7/enlightened spirit 9 /binder 1 /uncanny trickster 3

i get 13 eldritch blast dice, 10 hellfire blast dice, 4 skirmish dice (including improved skirmisher), adding up to 27d6 per round in dmg. with greater invisibility or concealment, flanking etc. i can skirmish way too far (ranged skirmisher), with quite a decent damage... I like it :) and If I'm far away enough they can't see me, and thus, sneak attack :), plus, the bonuses from scout are nice too :) and with the flying and fast movement i will get those improved skirmishes off :) and an extra feat from scout :)

so with human, i get a total of 9 feats (1 from scout list). anyone any more thoughts?

[Re'ozul]

Once you have Fell Flight, go for flyby attack (if the DM allows it).
If you wanna focus near exclusively on EB, Ability Focus Eldritch blast is Good.
For the same reason Improved Critical Eldritch Blast can be good.
Depending on your luck with the dice in early levels, you'll probably not need Point blank and Precise Shot since you throw touch attacks and those are nearly a guaranteed hit later on.
Quicken Spell like ability can be nice on your blast. Its only 3/day but with a lot of blast damage that can mean something.
The psionic shot line is nice for some extra d6s but it costs 4 feats so its not very useful.
Maybe look into item creation feats later on. Staffs and wondrous items are near always a good investment.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Chiming in with Sneak Attack Fighter over Rogue, because you get Fort *AND* FULL BAB.

Warlocks do most of their damage at 10' with Glaive, but if you want to go ranged, just remember the traditional problems with this:

1) Applying sneak attack damage. Opponents have to either be denied dex bonus to AC, or flanked. At ranged, you can't flank, which means making opponents denied dex bonus.

2) precision-based damage may only be applied within 30'. Being outside that will significantly drop your damage output.

3) Eldritch Blast is a Standard Action, which means you get ONE per turn (consistantly, that is, I'm well aware of Meta-SLA abilities, but they only work 3/day).

Having said that, here's my suggestions:

1) Talk to your GM about using races from the MM/SRD. Specifically, Pixie. Your build at level 5 will look like this: Warlock5//Pixie4/Sneak Attack Fighter 1. Pixies get Improved Invisibility always on, so until your opponents can start seeing invisibility, you've got pretty much unlimited sneak attacks.

2) If ToB is allowed, I highly suggest throwing some Swordsage onto the non-warlock side. Assassin's Stance really is all that good.

3) If it is allowed, Craven is a wonderful feat for any precision-based damage output.

4) Don't forget that you have other resources besides blasting. Chilling Tentacles, for example, grapples opponents, which leaves them denied dex bonus to AC against outside attacks. Wand of Grease is also good.

5) Don't forget wands of Gravestrike and Golemstrike. You'll need them to continue to apply damage consistently against the two most common forms of 'immune to precision-based damage' monsters.

6) Yo dawg, I heard you... bah, that's an overused meme anyways. Point blank, you debuff while you blast, thanks to things like Hindering Blast, Beshadowed Blast, Bewitching Blast, and Noxious Blast. Save or Lose + damage = good times. Doing the above + Eldritch Chain or Eldritch Cone makes it area-effect debuffing + damage. Have fun with that.

[Socratov]

the reason why im not going for sneaky fighter is i dont desperatly need the full bab (touch attacks ftw!), and from at least 60' away my saves are less important (especially when flying) also, with the feat ranged skirmisher i can skirmish on 60 ft. with enleightened spirit i will still be able to hurt undead (though no golems). Item creation is not happening, my DM doesn't really like it and advises against it, and feats like improved skirmisher crank up my damage. The reason i dont further crank it up with acrobatic skirmisher etc. is i wont be within range for it to use. i do think precision shot is going to help (to shoot in those grapples).

I need to select my invocations yet (chilling tentacles is ofcourse a nobrainer), but i think (depending on the way i will get my abillity scores) i might go for a high charisma (after dex and con) and use those sickening blasts etc. It will all depend on my ability scores.

As per invocations... I will get dispell and shatter (always nice in utility) and probably leave the flight for until i get my wings from enleigntened spirit.

[Etrivar]

Of course this doesn't work if the DM doesn't allow you cross-stream prerequisite fullfilment.

Everybody knows you can't cross the streams! :smalltongue:

[Socratov]

Everybody knows you can't cross the streams! :smalltongue:

fortunately mine does :smalltongue:

[PersonMan]

Everybody knows you can't cross the streams! :smalltongue:

Oh, yes you can, you just end up causing a massive marshmallow man to explode.

So, don't cross-PrC unless you want to cover New York City in marshmallow gunk.

[Ravens_cry]

that is a good idea, however i will miss skillpoints, seen as both lock and fighter have 2 skillpoints per level...

flyby attack is a good idea.. espially with scout and if I take improve skirmish from comp. scoundrel it will be even more devastating, ofcourse I will need the ranged skirmisher then...
The Thug variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) fighter, which explicitly can be used with sneak attack fighter, (scroll down to sneak attack fighter) gives you 4+ skill points a level and some better skills. As for full BAB, sure, you are doing touch attacks, but now you get that many more off and more attacks to attempt. Sounds good to me.

[Robert Blackletter]

When i ask this question i got this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8883325&postcount=4)build, it play quite well it it any help.

[Socratov]

Oh, yes you can, you just end up causing a massive marshmallow man to explode.

So, don't cross-PrC unless you want to cover New York City in marshmallow gunk.

i guess New York will have a white 4th of july :smallwink: