The Artificer: seriously?

[Flame of Anor]

I'm only now reading the Artificer's description, and it looks ridiculously good. This scroll-scribing thing--does it mean that an artificer can make a scroll of, like, anything? Say a wizard or an archivist wants a new spell: forget about researching it, just get an artificer to scribe a scroll of it, even if he's never heard of it, and bingo! Put it in your spellbook/prayerbook and you're ready to go! Is that really how it works?

[tonberrian]

According to errata, artificer scrolls are neither Arcane or Divine, meaning everybody has to UMD them and nobody can just scribe them into their books.

[Flame of Anor]

According to errata, artificer scrolls are neither Arcane or Divine, meaning everybody has to UMD them and nobody can just scribe them into their books.

Yes, well, who reads errata? :smallbiggrin:

...also, my DM doesn't really enforce the arcane/divine scroll thing. So I'm liking this quite a lot!

[Telonius]

I'm only now reading the Artificer's description, and it looks ridiculously good. This scroll-scribing thing--does it mean that an artificer can make a scroll of, like, anything? Say a wizard or an archivist wants a new spell: forget about researching it, just get an artificer to scribe a scroll of it, even if he's never heard of it, and bingo! Put it in your spellbook/prayerbook and you're ready to go! Is that really how it works?

Not exactly. The Artificer still has to meet the prerequisites for it. A Level-1 Artificer can't scribe a scroll of Gate, for example. He needs to be at (the character level needed to otherwise scribe the scroll) - 2.

[Flame of Anor]

Not exactly. The Artificer still has to meet the prerequisites for it. A Level-1 Artificer can't scribe a scroll of Gate, for example. He needs to be at (the character level needed to otherwise scribe the scroll) - 2.

Well, yeah, I get that. Otherwise it would just be too broken to handle...

[JaronK]

If you want scrolls that go into prayerbooks/spellbooks, you need a Warlock as they do get that ability at higher level. Artificers don't. But they're plenty good, probably better than you're thinking right now (it takes a bit to find all the Artificer goodness, and there's a LOT of goodness in there!).

JaronK

[Flame of Anor]

But they're plenty good, probably better than you're thinking right now (it takes a bit to find all the Artificer goodness, and there's a LOT of goodness in there!).

Bestow upon me your knowledge.

[Madcrafter]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929.0

Skip down to class abilities.

[tonberrian]

Bestow upon me your knowledge.

Metamagic Spell Trigger and Metamagic Spell Completion are some of the best abilities ever.

[Pyro_Azer]

Just the fact that your party can have all of the correct gear (including some of the really obscure stuff) without relying on the DM is one of the best ability ever.

[Veyr]

Also, Wands are massively better than scrolls, thanks to being absurdly more cost-effective.

[Angry Bob]

I would like to take this opportunity to warn you: I broke a campaign with an artificer once. The artificer never got banned. A bunch of other guys that he made items for did. And this is all before it hit its stride. If the campaign had continued, I have no doubt I'd have exploded it anyway.

[McSmack]

I love me some artificers! My first real experience with them was when one of my players tried one right after Eberron came out.

Very quickly I was having to re-evaluate CR's because the party's gear was so good.

It's especially bad when the PC's know what they're going to face. The artificer can buff everyone with dragonbane weapons before going into the dragon's lair. Once in there he can go 'Ol' Painless' with some Orb wands and just decimate things.

[Psyren]

I broke a campaign with an artificer once. The artificer never got banned. A bunch of other guys that he made items for did.

To quote the Futurama God-machine: "When you do things right, people aren't sure whether you did anything at all." :smallamused:

[MeeposFire]

Also, Wands are massively better than scrolls, thanks to being absurdly more cost-effective.

I think if I remember correctly that using a combo of artificer, item cost reduction feats, and a gnome prc from dragonmarked you can make scrolls worth it (as in they are nearly free) but for the most part that is an accurate statement. Besides wands can be metamagicked to the point where you get all 50 charges used in one blast which you can't do even with free, that is the best pat about wands.

[Veyr]

Unbound Scroll helps, but they're still not really good. I suppose if you really tried you could get the cost of a Scroll under the cost per charge of a Wand...

[shadow_archmagi]

Metamagic Spell Trigger and Metamagic Spell Completion are some of the best abilities ever.

Don't forget the infusion that does the same thing for free;

Anyway, here's a quick rundown of what makes artificers great, in no particular order:

1. Bonus feats! Millions of them! All the crafting feats for free plus bonus feats!

2. Infusions! They're like spells but you cast them on items. Specifically,

2A. Weapon/Armor Enhancement.
Declare that for the next X time, any of the party's weapons/armor now have whatever bonus you want. Up against a ninja's guild? Blurring swords for everyone! Catch them flatfooted! Up against a dragon? Dragonbane swords and armor of fire resistance!

2B. Spell Storing Item.
Possibly the most powerful 1st level spell in existence, Spell Storing Item lets you spend 1 minute to make any item into a scroll. Admittedly, it costs gold and XP and only works on spells below 4th level, but it's still preposterously cheap and fast compared to normal scrolls. When you're looking through the Spell Compendium for possible targets, don't forget to check the Bard list for some great spells!

2C. Metamagic Item.
For rounds/level, your wand/staff now operates as if it had a metamagic applied. At no cost. Enjoy your Maximized Fireball, or Twin Glitterdusts or whatever. Double damage!

3. Metamagic Spell Trigger
This is like the infusion, but you can do it anytime and it costs extra charges per increased level of the spell. Errata makes it clear that you can't apply more than one metamagic at a time with it. Still good for when you're out of 3rd level infusions, or you need a Maximized Fireball but can't spare the round to metamagic your wand, or if you've already metamagicked your wand and now you want a Maximized Twin Fireball.

4. Item Creation
Enjoy delving through the magic item compendium; don't forget that you can craft things for half of the price you could buy them at the store.

[MeeposFire]

Unbound Scroll helps, but they're still not really good. I suppose if you really tried you could get the cost of a Scroll under the cost per charge of a Wand...

Oh I am not really disagreeing with you overall, scrolls are worse than wands and staves in terms of power. Even if you can get scrolls to cost 0 gp (which I think you can do or at least get close) that is powerful as in wizard and cleric powerful but wands and staves, while costing more in this situation, have powers that a scrol cannot hope to get because of metamagic spelltrigger.

On this thread you can find a way to make scrolls for free or if you don't want to use a FR feat (which I totally understand) you can still sell your made up scrolls to make a profit at only a cost of time and 15XP.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43393

[Urpriest]

3. Metamagic Spell Trigger
This is like the infusion, but you can do it anytime and it costs extra charges per increased level of the spell. Errata makes it clear that you can't apply more than one metamagic at a time with it. Still good for when you're out of 3rd level infusions, or you need a Maximized Fireball but can't spare the round to metamagic your wand, or if you've already metamagicked your wand and now you want a Maximized Twin Fireball.


I'm looking at the Eberron Campaign Setting Errata right now and I'm seeing nothing of the sort. Could you clarify where this comes from?

[Doc Roc]

Trust me, scrolls are not as good a route as you might hope. I played a very high-op scrollificer and was being outclassed by a mid-op druid.

[gbprime]

I would like to take this opportunity to warn you: I broke a campaign with an artificer once. The artificer never got banned. A bunch of other guys that he made items for did. And this is all before it hit its stride. If the campaign had continued, I have no doubt I'd have exploded it anyway.

Yeah, for openers, the Artificer in our 15th level group has been handing out "Bite of the Werebear" candies pretty much every fight, having his horde of cheap homunculi pop them in our mouths for us so we don't have to spend an action buffing. And you note that that line of spells doesn't ACTUALLY say that you lose the ability to wield your normal equipment in your hands...

[tonberrian]

Minor Schemas are pretty awesome, though.

[shadow_archmagi]

I'm looking at the Eberron Campaign Setting Errata right now and I'm seeing nothing of the sort. Could you clarify where this comes from?

Whoops. It might've been FAQ

[Madcrafter]

Scrolls are decent for low level play, before you can use wands decently (due to price) especially at first level when you have nothing else to spend your craft reserve on (and you can put a few second level spells in there too). After you get Metamagic spell trigger though, wands all the way (and staves sometimes). I agree that schemas can be pretty awesome as well.

[Urpriest]

Whoops. It might've been FAQ

Can't find it in the FAQ either.

[aquaticrna]

Trust me, scrolls are not as good a route as you might hope. I played a very high-op scrollificer and was being outclassed by a mid-op druid.

That's not that fair of a comparison, druids are ridiculous with not much effort

[Big Fau]

That's not that fair of a comparison, druids are ridiculous with not much effort

Druids are actually weaker than Artificers unless Planar Shepherd is allowed. CoDzilla is top tier, but as far as power levels go, the Erudite, Artificer, and Archivist all outclass CoDzilla, with Wizards being somewhere between them.

[IthroZada]

Druids are actually weaker than Artificers unless Planar Shepherd is allowed. CoDzilla is top tier, but as far as power levels go, the Erudite, Artificer, and Archivist all outclass CoDzilla, with Wizards being somewhere between them.

A Psionic Artificer is supposed to be Tier 0 right? As far as you can say something like that without blowing smoke.

[Big Fau]

A Psionic Artificer is supposed to be Tier 0 right? As far as you can say something like that without blowing smoke.

Well, it's the only class with access to 9/9/9 (Psionic, Arcane, Divine), and the ability to craft them earlier than any other class (the StP Erudite can get up to 8th level Arcane, 8th level Divine, and 9th level Powers).


But this is because WotC goofed.

[MeeposFire]

Trust me, scrolls are not as good a route as you might hope. I played a very high-op scrollificer and was being outclassed by a mid-op druid.

Who is saying that scrolls are awesome? At best I am saying you can make them cost effective but that does not mean I think they are awesome. Staves are so much better because of the metamagic that in terms of power it is not even a question.

[Optimator]

Don't forget the infusion that does the same thing for free;

----------------------------------------
2B. Spell Storing Item.
Possibly the most powerful 1st level spell in existence, Spell Storing Item lets you spend 1 minute to make any item into a scroll. Admittedly, it costs gold and XP and only works on spells below 4th level, but it's still preposterously cheap and fast compared to normal scrolls. When you're looking through the Spell Compendium for possible targets, don't forget to check the Bard list for some great spells!

These. A thousand times these. Get a bag full of Quintessence and put metamagic'd wands in it.

[shadow_archmagi]

These. A thousand times these. Get a bag full of Quintessence and put metamagic'd wands in it.

Oh god, that's genius.

[JaronK]

And don't forget to look at the Trapsmith spell list... lots of higher powered spells at way below normal levels. There's a few serious gems in the Ranger, Paladin, and even Adept spell lists too.

JaronK

[Flame of Anor]

Get a bag full of Quintessence and put metamagic'd wands in it.


Oh god, that's genius.

Wait, I don't know what you're talking about. Explain, please?

[Veyr]

Quintessence is timeless; anything immersed in it is frozen in time until removed.

Thus, the Infusion of the spell stored in those items never expires.

[Ballis]

Wait, I don't know what you're talking about. Explain, please?

Quintessence removes things from time essentially
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm

Metamagic infuse wands, and cover them in quintessence to preserve the length on the infusion is what I assume is his idea. There may be some other trick that I'm not savvy enough to think of though.

[Endarire]

Quintessence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm) effectively makes time no longer pass for the affected object. You can buff your items and keep 'em buffed forever.

[Flame of Anor]

But...but there are no psionics in my campaign world... :smallfrown:

[lianightdemon]

custom spell time

[FelixG]

Also dont forget...

As an artificer you can reeeallly delve into the custom magic item creation rules.

I particularly like to make partially charged wands, you can turn them out faster and for things you dont use all that often you can only make a wand of 10 charges or so and save some coin! (one of my favorite GMs turned me to that trick)

[Veyr]

You cannot craft partially charged wands. The only rules for those are for finding them. Partially charged wands are simply partially used wands.

A brand-new wand has 50 charges, always.

[phlidwsn]

I'm looking at the Eberron Campaign Setting Errata right now and I'm seeing nothing of the sort. Could you clarify where this comes from?

From ECS erratta, 3rd item on page 1:
Page 32: Artificer—Item Creation
Magic items created by an artificer are considered
neither arcane nor divine.

[ubergeek63]

You cannot craft partially charged wands. The only rules for those are for finding them. Partially charged wands are simply partially used wands.

A brand-new wand has 50 charges, always.

but you can craft fully charged wands that take 2 charges each use... the pricing is assuming 1 charge per use

[Urpriest]

From ECS erratta, 3rd item on page 1:
Page 32: Artificer—Item Creation
Magic items created by an artificer are considered
neither arcane nor divine.

Not what I was asking about. The person I quoted claimed that Artificers could not apply multiple metamagics via Metamagic Spell Trigger.

[Theodoxus]

From ECS erratta, 3rd item on page 1:
Page 32: Artificer—Item Creation
Magic items created by an artificer are considered
neither arcane nor divine.

I can understand this ruling from a balance perspective - hence the errata - but it makes no sense from a verisimilitude perspective. All magic-esque things in the D&D universe have origins in one of three areas: Arcane, Divine or Psionic. Artificers aren't psionic (hence the Psionic Artificer class) - where does the power to alter reality in these crafted devices come from?

A rhetorical question, to be sure. Though I'm curious if anyone has tackled that for their own games.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Wait, I don't know what you're talking about. Explain, please?

Suddenly that spell makes perfect sense...

[Telonius]

I can understand this ruling from a balance perspective - hence the errata - but it makes no sense from a verisimilitude perspective. All magic-esque things in the D&D universe have origins in one of three areas: Arcane, Divine or Psionic. Artificers aren't psionic (hence the Psionic Artificer class) - where does the power to alter reality in these crafted devices come from?

A rhetorical question, to be sure. Though I'm curious if anyone has tackled that for their own games.

It comes from a very particular alchemical mixture of of dilithium crystals, galvorn, energon, and kryptonite.

[Urpriest]

I can understand this ruling from a balance perspective - hence the errata - but it makes no sense from a verisimilitude perspective. All magic-esque things in the D&D universe have origins in one of three areas: Arcane, Divine or Psionic. Artificers aren't psionic (hence the Psionic Artificer class) - where does the power to alter reality in these crafted devices come from?

A rhetorical question, to be sure. Though I'm curious if anyone has tackled that for their own games.

Most spell-like abilities aren't Arcane or Divine either.

[The Shadowmind]

If the artificer can get a UMD mod of +55(DC 65, able to take 10), he could apply Persist Spell to any 9th level spell on a scroll from Metamagic spell completion. Say shapechange.

[Warlawk]

It comes from a very particular alchemical mixture of of dilithium crystals, galvorn, energon, and kryptonite.

In layman's terms it is made of pure cold forged Handwavium. :smallbiggrin:


I can understand this ruling from a balance perspective - hence the errata - but it makes no sense from a verisimilitude perspective. All magic-esque things in the D&D universe have origins in one of three areas: Arcane, Divine or Psionic. Artificers aren't psionic (hence the Psionic Artificer class) - where does the power to alter reality in these crafted devices come from?

A rhetorical question, to be sure. Though I'm curious if anyone has tackled that for their own games.

There is an underlying power in the world, raw power that cannot be defined as Arcane, Divine or Psionic. Mortal races are not able to understand or manipulate this energy directly in any fashion. The various types of magic are simply the mortal way of understanding and tapping this power. This raw power provides the juice behind all types of magic/psionic/special abilities that exist, it is simply that most mortals are completely unaware of that and can only view the separate types of magic. It requires a divine rank to be able to directly understand and tap into this power, and that is what grants the various divine abilities. It has been hinted at in my games by a long running Artificer NPC that my players were seeing for their various magic related needs.

[Flame of Anor]

If the artificer can get a UMD mod of +55(DC 65, able to take 10), he could apply Persist Spell to any 9th level spell on a scroll from Metamagic spell completion. Say shapechange.

Remind me how a UMD modifier of more than 30 or 40 is even possible.

[MeeposFire]

Well you are an artificer you could just make a bunch of items that give you different types of bonuses. They add up fast.

[tonberrian]

Remind me how a UMD modifier of more than 30 or 40 is even possible.

23 from ranks
7 from Charisma

And then there's that infusion that gives a circumstance bonus of like CL/2, not to mention custom items of UMD.

[sonofzeal]

I can understand this ruling from a balance perspective - hence the errata - but it makes no sense from a verisimilitude perspective. All magic-esque things in the D&D universe have origins in one of three areas: Arcane, Divine or Psionic. Artificers aren't psionic (hence the Psionic Artificer class) - where does the power to alter reality in these crafted devices come from?

A rhetorical question, to be sure. Though I'm curious if anyone has tackled that for their own games.
I think of it as "pure" magic. It's certainly not Divine or Psionic. Arcane is a really broad category, flavour-wise, but just about the only thing we can say is that Arcane is at very least distinct from Divine and Psi... while the Artificer can move fluidly from one to the other without even noticing which one "owns" the spell he's working with now. Whatever framework the various streams of magic coincide in, that's where the Artificer works.

[Kaje]

I can understand this ruling from a balance perspective - hence the errata - but it makes no sense from a verisimilitude perspective. All magic-esque things in the D&D universe have origins in one of three areas: Arcane, Divine or Psionic. Artificers aren't psionic (hence the Psionic Artificer class) - where does the power to alter reality in these crafted devices come from?

A rhetorical question, to be sure. Though I'm curious if anyone has tackled that for their own games.Pretty sure meldshaping, shadowcasting, binding, and truenaming are also neither arcane nor divine. And what exactly is ki anyway?

[shadow_archmagi]

Wait, I don't know what you're talking about. Explain, please?

The Metamagic Item infusion gives your wands a major power up for rounds per level.

Since your wand is an item, no harm is done to it by dunking it into Quintessence.

Quintessence stops time.

So, buff your wands, and then they *stay* buffed until you need them. Spend all your 3rd level infusions on it on the day that you spent making sandwiches, and then you don't have to waste rounds or infusions on an adventuring day.

[The Shadowmind]

Remind me how a UMD modifier of more than 30 or 40 is even possible.

23 Ranks
5 from Charisma (20)
+30 from Competence item(90,000gp)
+30 from Competence item(90,000gp) and 1 use of Item Alteration infusion to make it another type of bonus.
+12 circumstance Skill Enchantment infusion at cl 20
+2 artisan bonus from having scribe scroll(artificer)
+2 Synergy Bonus(stacking) for having 5 ranks in spellcraft
+2 Synergy Bonus(stacking) for having 5 ranks in Decipher Script
This is just core+Eberron and I'm sure I've overlooked somethings.

[Flame of Anor]

I think of it as "pure" magic. It's certainly not Divine or Psionic. Arcane is a really broad category, flavour-wise, but just about the only thing we can say is that Arcane is at very least distinct from Divine and Psi... while the Artificer can move fluidly from one to the other without even noticing which one "owns" the spell he's working with now. Whatever framework the various streams of magic coincide in, that's where the Artificer works.

If it's "pure" magic, it's arcane. Psionics aren't magic, they're mind-powers. Divine magic comes from the gods. Everything else is arcane.

[MeeposFire]

If it's "pure" magic, it's arcane. Psionics aren't magic, they're mind-powers. Divine magic comes from the gods. Everything else is arcane.

Arcane is not pure magic. If anything you can say that arcane is magic derived from outside the self. Binders use magic it is not arcane. Meldshapers use magic and are not arcane. Truenamers are the same. Arcane magic is not that broad.

[phlidwsn]

Not what I was asking about. The person I quoted claimed that Artificers could not apply multiple metamagics via Metamagic Spell Trigger.

Hmm, for that one, the Artificer Handbook references that it was clarified at some point that the intent of the Metamagic Spell Trigger was one only, but I can't find anything official in print to back it up. So it sounds like the Word of the Designer, but not Rules as Written

[Renchard]

If it's "pure" magic, it's arcane. Psionics aren't magic, they're mind-powers. Divine magic comes from the gods. Everything else is arcane.
Citation, please?

[Flame of Anor]

Citation, please?

I just made that up, but it feels right. :smallwink:

[shadow_archmagi]

I find that a better analogy is to think of it as being like sound.

Arcane spells are like strings, while Divine spells are woodwinds. Psionics is oral.

Artificers understand the mechanism behind it better than most, and write down those scratchy wavelength patterns. (Like what Audacity produces)

[Warlawk]

I just made that up, but it feels right. :smallwink:

Generally it is frowned upon to present something made up without saying that. Many people may not know that you're just randomly making things up and it can cause confusion in discussion if they think your statement was backed by some sort of RAW support.

All it takes is a simple addition of 'in my games' or 'IMO' and the whole thing can be avoided.

[Flame of Anor]

Generally it is frowned upon to present something made up without saying that. Many people may not know that you're just randomly making things up and it can cause confusion in discussion if they think your statement was backed by some sort of RAW support.

All it takes is a simple addition of 'in my games' or 'IMO' and the whole thing can be avoided.

Okay, well, then what I said was COOKED.

[Yuki Akuma]

I just made that up, but it feels right. :smallwink:

It's also totally wrong.

[Flame of Anor]

It's also totally wrong.

PHB 177: "Arcane spells...involve the direct manipulation of mystic energies". Sure, it may be wrong by crunch, but I still think it sounds right by fluff.