Enter Tome of Battle

[pilvento]

So after a while of preventing miself from reading the book I got my hands on it last week and read it all.

Its not as game breaking as my friends allways said, i think the problem is the idea of learning new mechanics, its like introducing psionics in a table for the first time.

Shadow hand is cool but if i cant roll lots sneak d6 then its not worthy to be an assasin :smalltongue:
Iron heart concept its awesome too, the ultimate fighter as it should be, be one with your own weapon.
But the one I loved the most was the diamond mind dicipline and the ethernal blade PRC.

I want to play a ToB pc so bad... ill talk to one of my friends to be dm for a shot at least 1 night, and if they refuse then ill never be DM for our vampire the masquerade campaing ever again! :smallfurious:

My ideas so far are...

Swashbuckler3/Warblade7/Ethernal blade 10

Max out profit from INT:
Insightfull strike (swash)
Find a way to fit knowledge devotion feat?

Please share your forbiden ToB knowledge with me, help me exploit the diamond mind PrC

[PollyOliver]

Since you've got to be an elf anyway, a 2-level detour through champion of corellon can be decent on an eternal blade if you can swing the feats. Or even just wb 10/eb 10.

Even if your goal is to be throwing a ton of d6's, a couple levels of swordsage in a rogue build can be awesome. Pick up assassin's stance for +2d6 sneak attack (+1d6 net, since you're probably trading two rogue levels for two swordsage levels) and the feat shadow blade for dex to damage with short swords or daggers. Then grab other useful things like cloak of deception for swift greater invisibility, a shadow teleportation maneuver depending on your initiator level, and maybe distracting ember for a free flanking partner after you've used cloak of deception. Make it unarmed swordsage and pick up snap kick for another attack to put your SA on, if you like.

[FMArthur]

The fistful of d6s just comes from your Strikes and Boosts, and generally produces around the same amount as a regular Rogue. ToB is different from normal melee in mechanism, but in actual results, it may surprise your group with how similarly it functions to existing melee classes. The power in it is that it does these things with less investment and does more of them in each character.

I would be wary of focusing on Diamond Mind in a group opposed to ToB, though; it's a contender for the strongest discipline in defense and generally has much more scalable offenses than the usual +Xd6 strikes from others, resulting in pretty much the most powerful discipline in the book. You might also be leery of Tiger Claw and White Raven if your group is especially Paizo-esque in its view of melee immobility as law.

[Veyr]

Welcome to the wild world of mundanes with nice things.

Tome of Battle is by-far the best-balanced book ever written for 3.5. It also solves a glaring problem with the system, that being that all mundane classes in the system more-or-less suck. Tome of Battle characters are still far short of the incredible brokenness of full-casters, but they at least are capable of providing useful abilities and general competence in a wide array of activities (which, say, the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin cannot do).

[tribble]

which, say, the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin cannot do).
Hang on, I know about fighters being low-tier and monks being worst-tier, but don't paladins at least contribute with lay on hands?

[Curious]

Hang on, I know about fighters being low-tier and monks being worst-tier, but don't paladins at least contribute with lay on hands?

Healing is sub-optimal during combat (unless you are a Pathfinder paladin with swift-action healing) so lay-on-hands is generally not a first choice.

[Veyr]

Hang on, I know about fighters being low-tier and monks being worst-tier, but don't paladins at least contribute with lay on hands?
It's all-but-useless in combat and it is a very small amount of healing per day. It's really not very significant.

Sadly, it is one of their better abilities. Which was kind of my point.

IIRC, Fighters and Paladins on in the same Tier, unless you go Dungeoncrasher in which case Fighter is one Tier higher.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Healing is sub-optimal during combat (unless you are a Pathfinder paladin with swift-action healing) so lay-on-hands is generally not a first choice.

Plus they rely on charisma, wisdom, strength, and con.

[Cog]

Paladins do have some pretty good range within their tier. Battle Blessing, Devotion feats, and some interesting ACFs can probably bring them close to Dungeoncrashing. No one of those things does it, though.

[Gnaeus]

It's all-but-useless in combat and it is a very small amount of healing per day. It's really not very significant.

Sadly, it is one of their better abilities. Which was kind of my point.

IIRC, Fighters and Paladins on in the same Tier, unless you go Dungeoncrasher in which case Fighter is one Tier higher.

I think paladin is slightly under-tiered, if Spell Compendium and Complete Champion are in play. They have a fair number of utility spells in SC (like the one that gives wings to their mount). Complete champion's devotion feats give them something really useful, like travel or animal devotion, to do with their many, many weak turn attempts, and Battle Blessing helps them with action economy.

Edit: Swordsaged in a ToB thread.

[LibraryOgre]

Tome of Battle detractors tend to overstate its problems, while Tome of Battle adherents tend to understate its anime influences, which turns off a lot of detractors.

[Veyr]

while Tome of Battle adherents tend to understate its anime influences, which turns off a lot of detractors.
I'd argue that its detractors massively overstate the anime influence, which is barely there at all, IMO.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Tome of Battle detractors tend to overstate its problems, while Tome of Battle adherents tend to understate its anime influences, which turns off a lot of detractors.

Just take away the concepts of monasteries and disciplines, as well as the fancy names, and just call them fighting moves.

[Veyr]

Or don't, since neither of those things is particularly unique to anime or manga.

Tome of Battle is no more "anime" than the Monk was to begin with. Most of it is less-so.

[pilvento]

As i see it its full of anime influence but each one has its own ponti of view.

Back to the build topic, how can i get knowledge devotion into this build? which ways do i have to get those skills?

[Forbiddenwar]

I'm playing a rogue/swordsage right now. Having great fun doing a sneak attack for every hit (island of blades, 1st level stance). Sure my sneak attacks have less d6s to them than they would otherwise, but to never have to wonder "Can I sneak Attack?" seems worth it for the 1 level dip.

Of course cheering over my build falls a little flat, when the cleric casts sound lance each turn for 8d8, or when the wizard drops 6d6 fireballs. So, yeah there is little that TOB has in the teir 1 category. And in that case it is at least as balanced as core. Most just avoid it because they have to learn something new in order to keep players from abusing their ignorance, or let honest players play it. (Silly me, I told my DM that I have to keep the stances and maneuvers I choose, just as the book says. not pick new ones at every level)

[Keld Denar]

Warblade's have a couple of Knowledge skills (local, IIRC), which means you can qualify for Knowledge Devotion by 3rd level if you take at least 1 Warblade level in your first 3. KD gives you one other Knowledge skill as a class skill forever, so pick one of the more useful ones like Arcane, and pump it from then on. Until then, just 1 rank in each of the 6 knowledges (Local, Nature, Arcana, Dungeoneering, Planes, Religion) until you hit Eternal Blade which has all Knowledges as class skills. With enough Int and some other boosts, you can be quite viable with KD for most regards, especially if your DM allows Collector of Stories (CScoundrel skill trick) to apply to KD rolls (which seems to be rather popular around here).

Honestly, while the 3 level distraction in Swashbuckler seems kinda fun, this'll put you 1.5 ILs behind an even level Warblade. You'll get 9th level maneuvers, sure, but you'll be a whole maneuver level behind for the bulk of your career. The difference between maneuver levels tends to be ~ +2d6 damage, which averages 7, so if your Int isn't higher than +7, it won't be an advantage most of the time. As a static bonus (similar to Knowledge Devotion), though, it would multiply on a crit if you went with a weapon like a Courtblade with an 18-20 threat range. I dunno, I guess its ultimately mostly a wash, but I'd PERSONALLY prefer to go straight Warblade10/EB10 rather than Warblade7/Swash3/EB10. YMMV.

[sonofzeal]

European fighting manuals are famously full of fancy-named attacks and whatnot. My personal favourite is "Mordhau", basically grabbing your sword by the blade and whacking your foe on the head with the hilt. Hilarious to watch, and surprisingly effective against heavy armor that your sword can't get through otherwise.

Now "Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation"? I'm pretty sure that's a callback to "Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique", and is decidedly Eastern in origin either way. But hey, whatever, Eastern martial arts legitimately have stances and attacks named like that. It's not anime, it's just Eastern, and few people complain about the Monk, Samurai, or Ninja - and few ban the PHB, CW, and CA because of that Eastern influence.

[pilvento]

Warblade's have a couple of Knowledge skills (local, IIRC), which means you can qualify for Knowledge Devotion by 3rd level if you take at least 1 Warblade level in your first 3. KD gives you one other Knowledge skill as a class skill forever, so pick one of the more useful ones like Arcane, and pump it from then on. Until then, just 1 rank in each of the 6 knowledges (Local, Nature, Arcana, Dungeoneering, Planes, Religion) until you hit Eternal Blade which has all Knowledges as class skills. With enough Int and some other boosts, you can be quite viable with KD for most regards, especially if your DM allows Collector of Stories (CScoundrel skill trick) to apply to KD rolls (which seems to be rather popular around here).

True, I didnt read that ethernal has all knowledges, so that solves a problem.

also instead of swash i can just do a 2 lvl dip in champ of colleron for dex to dmg instead

[Master_Rahl22]

Regarding Knowledge Devotion, you have a few ways to go about it. You could take a one level dip in Cloistered Cleric from the SRD and trade the Knowledge Domain for the Devotion feat. You could also simply just spend your skill points on Knowledge skills until you meet the prereqs. Swashbucklers don't get any Knowledges as class skills, but Warblades get Local and History. Local is useful against humanoids, but you'll definitely want Arcana, Religion, and possibly Dungeoneering somehow as those are incredibly useful for large groups of creatures.

You could dip into Wizard, Duskblade, or Factotum as these are all Int based and get all Knowledges as class skills. Keep in mind that in a ToB build, dips into non-ToB classes are best done early on since each non-ToB level counts for 1/2 Initiator Level. A Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 1 who then takes a level of Warblade gets to choose from 2nd level maneuvers when picking his 3 maneuvers and 1 stance.

[FMArthur]

It's a popular dip in planned builds, but in actual play I really doubt Swashbuckler 3 gives even the most Intelligence-focused build enough for setting 3 class levels on fire. Wizards, Psions, Beguilers, Duskblades, Factotums and Warblades are all way better off with 3 more levels of their own class than taking Swashbuckler levels.

The Education feat from Eberron Campaign Setting is a 1st-level feat that gives you all Knowledges as class skills, so you can take that rather than lose Warblade levels and BAB. As a Warblade you would need an 18 Int or better to max the 6 creature Knowledges as well as Jump and Concentration though, and you'll probably want Tumble or Spot as well. Knowledge Devotion is another very strenuous investment, but I think it's a probably still worth it because you don't lose any of your class feature advancement.

Dropping Knowledge (Religion) in Knowledge Devotion builds is an option because it's only for undead, but sometimes you just gotta bust up a lich, and you might also run into the common Rogue problem where the campaign world's quantity of Undead is directly proportionate to your success in combat... If you have a Dread Necro in the party you might be able to use this relationship to trick your Reality into a more advantageous situation though. :smallamused:

[Keld Denar]

You can't dip anything that doesn't have full BAB though, or you miss out on EB's capstone, which is the main reason to play an EB in the first place, and the only reason to play a nancy pants elf...ever. That rules out the Cloistered Cleric dip, Wizard dip, and the Factotum dip. Duskblade would work, though. Probably not worth it, though, just sit there with 1 rank CC in the other 4 (max Local naturally, and keep Arcana maxed via the one free Knowledge you get from KD). Local and Arcana should cover like, 50% of all foes faught unless it is a specifically undead themed game (and if you know that, take Religion instead of Arcana) or a nature/aberration themed game (same advice as above, but less likely since they are uncommon themes).

There's also the Educated feat in the ECS and the FRCS. It makes all Knowledges class skills forever and ever, but costs you a whole precious feat. PROBABLY not worth it.

EDIT: You don't HAVE to keep all Knowledges maxed either. Between having a decent Int, Collector of Stories, Eternal Knowledge, and possibly an item, a few points go a LONG ways. If you put 4 points/level rotating, you should be fine. Conversely, if your game isn't focusing on nature and/or aberrations, you could probably be pretty safe leaving those 2 with only a few points. If you do end up fighting something from one of those catagories, all you are losing out on is possibly +1-2 points of to-hit and damage. Hardly gimping youself by any measure of the term.

[Draz74]

Eternal Blade's capstone gets a lot of attention, but its other levels are good too ... and good thing, since most campaigns never get to 20. :smalltongue:

Also, I never figured you for an elf-hater, Keld.

[Prime32]

As i see it its full of anime influence but each one has its own ponti of view.Everything is full of anime influence. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10832)

[Partysan]

Everything is full of anime influence. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10832)

That's golden and gets bookmarked right away, because bookmarks on gold are stylish.

[Grendus]

I think paladin is slightly under-tiered, if Spell Compendium and Complete Champion are in play. They have a fair number of utility spells in SC (like the one that gives wings to their mount). Complete champion's devotion feats give them something really useful, like travel or animal devotion, to do with their many, many weak turn attempts, and Battle Blessing helps them with action economy.

Edit: Swordsaged in a ToB thread.

The reposted tier system put Paladin as upper T5. A Paladin with Battle Blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order gets to cast a decent variety of spells as swift actions. They're still painfully MAD, heal for a pitiful amount a day, and suffer from the classic "melee must stand still in a mobile world" problem, but they have some nice tricks when built right.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The reposted tier system put Paladin as upper T5. A Paladin with Battle Blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order gets to cast a decent variety of spells as swift actions. They're still painfully MAD, heal for a pitiful amount a day, and suffer from the classic "melee must stand still in a mobile world" problem, but they have some nice tricks when built right.

What if you have a Pegasus mount? That'll make them very mobile and allow them to chase the casters and dragons that are in the air.

[Endarire]

I like Warblade1/WhirlPounce Barbarian1/Warblade+6/Crusader1/Warblade+1/Eternal Blade10.

This gets you Pounce (lovely!), level 3 Crusader maneuvers (and debatably a level 3 Crusader stance like Thicket of Blades), and lotsa spiffy maneuvers from both classes.

Remember, other classes add 1/2 their level to your initiator level. Thus, if you're X8/Crusader1, you can pick maneuvers as if you were a level 5 Crusader. (You just have the maneuvers known, readied, and granted as a level 1 Crusader.)

[Pechvarry]

You can't dip anything that doesn't have full BAB though, or you miss out on EB's capstone, which is the main reason to play an EB in the first place, and the only reason to play a nancy pants elf...ever. That rules out the Cloistered Cleric dip, Wizard dip, and the Factotum dip.

I just wanted to have that on the page twice for twice the enjoyment. Reasons not to dip Cloistered Cleric are so few and far between on these forums.


You don't HAVE to keep all Knowledges maxed either. Between having a decent Int, Collector of Stories, Eternal Knowledge, and possibly an item, a few points go a LONG ways.

I don't see how Eternal Knowledge helps. It doesn't add to your knowledge checks in any way. In fact, Eternal Knowledge is kinda in a weird place...

Perspective A: your blade guide is a true game entity, with a slight existence deficiency. This means Eternal Knowledge gets no bonuses from your magic items or abilities that increase skill checks. In fact, since it doesn't possess Knowledge Devotion, it can't even make the checks for you!

Perspective B: Everything about the blade guide is flavor text. As a game construct, it is only a vehicle for the PC's special abilities. This means Eternal Knowledge provides a means of making knowledge checks with a virtual amount of ranks, in the same way as Bardic Knack. Ergo, while it's still exempting skill ranks, it seems feasible for other things such as items and feats to contribute bonuses, as those simply add to Knowledge checks.

With perspective B, a level 10 EB could max 1 knowledge skill and let Eternal Knowledge take the other 5.

I also feel compelled to note that Eternal Blades basically have knowledge devotion as a class feature. Since Eternal Training offers insight bonuses to attack/damage (does not stack with KD feat), I strongly suggest using the "extra maneuver" use, which is probably the stronger anyway.

Finally, Tactical Insight bears mention. Has this ever been discussed? It seems like it should be Ye Olde Topic of Elfs. You impose (Int bonus) penalty on opponent AC, but it says "this penalty applies only to attacks made by your allies." Preeeeeetty sure you're your own ally. When I first read this ability, I thought they meant 3rd party combatants don't get the benefits. But a second reading makes me think that, RAI, the writers wanted you not to be counted your own ally (White Raven Tactics agrees).

Food for thought. Soul food. For your blade guide.

[Seerow]

I'd argue that its detractors massively overstate the anime influence, which is barely there at all, IMO.

I agree with this, as someone who hates 99% of anime (I leave that 1% there on the offchance there is something out there I will like if I come across it), and likes Tome of Battle.

[marcielle]

Indeed. ToB is actually more akin to the stuff in chinese martial novels and kung-fu soap operas. That's right. In the West, old women watch cheesy Italian love stories. OUR grandmas watch stuff that would have put Bruce Lee to shame.

[Veyr]

I agree with this, as someone who hates 99% of anime (I leave that 1% there on the offchance there is something out there I will like if I come across it), and likes Tome of Battle.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the genre. I have enjoyed a few (Cowboy Bebop was decent, I seem to remember Ghost in the Shell being good, though that might be me remembering its reputation more than anything else, and Deathnote was solid until it ruined itself), but it's not generally my cup of tea.

But Tome of Battle is anime only if you imagine it that way. Other than certain Swordsage builds that are particularly going for that flavor (that is, Monk flavor), there's no reason that it must be imagined that way; the maneuvers themselves are just mechanical, and the classes line up in flavor perfectly with Fighter, Monk, and Paladin.

[Grendus]

What if you have a Pegasus mount? That'll make them very mobile and allow them to chase the casters and dragons that are in the air.

I've always preferred Drakkensteed. Slower, but the trample attack is downright nasty at lower levels. Goes well with a Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut, you get some great AoE effects (trample, then breathe on the survivors). Probably not completely optimal, but it's a fun build with great flavor.

They're probably T4 even within core with the right build, by virtue of making fairly decent chargers. Their mount is tough enough to take a hit (if only one), which is a huge boon to chargers, and they have the BAB to power attack for a crapload of damage, stacked further through charge multipliers. Smite Evil also gets the multiplier IIRC, so against a powerful demon or devil they're positively lethal if they can get a charge. Since one definition of T4 is being very good at your niche (mounted combat) but having trouble outside (their core spells are pretty terrible for the levels you get them at, Lay on Hands is pretty weak, and their turn undead progression is reduced, though they do have Diplomacy and some charisma focus), they fit the definition fairly well. Step out of core and they're suddenly swift casting wizard spells (plus some divine spells that are actually worth using) and increasing their charge multiplier even further. Not enough to be T3, but they're fairly dangerous outside of core with the right build and the right circumstances.

[Gnaeus]

I agree with Grendus, but I think if we really want to debate paladin tier we should make a new thread. It isn't really relevant to ToB (although I admit I contributed to the thread hijack).

[Talya]

I agree with this, as someone who hates 99% of anime (I leave that 1% there on the offchance there is something out there I will like if I come across it), and likes Tome of Battle.

I agree with you 99%, both on TOB, and hating most anime. (I leave that 1% there because I already found a single anime movie that I liked -- Appleseed -- and grew up liking "Robotech," although Robotech didn't age well.)

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the genre.

Anime is not a genre.

Unless you consider "comic books" or "cartoons" to be genres as well. Or "movies".

[Talya]

Anime is not a genre.

Unless you consider "comic books" or "cartoons" to be genres as well. Or "movies".


There are common stylistic elements in Japanese Anime that are different than western shows, and I'm not only talking about the artwork.

Edit: (I specified Japanese, because western animation studios are starting to produce "anime" of their own, styled the same way. It's entirely possible they may do so without copying anime's other styles.)

[Veyr]

Anime is not a genre.

Unless you consider "comic books" or "cartoons" to be genres as well.
I more or less do, actually. "Genre" might be the wrong word, though.

[Seerow]

Anime is not a genre.

Unless you consider "comic books" or "cartoons" to be genres as well. Or "movies".

Can we just skip this whole argument you're trying to bring up which will inevitably derail the topic further and say I haven't found either a Shoujo or Shounen anime that I like?



They're probably T4 even within core with the right build, by virtue of making fairly decent chargers. Their mount is tough enough to take a hit (if only one), which is a huge boon to chargers, and they have the BAB to power attack for a crapload of damage, stacked further through charge multipliers. Smite Evil also gets the multiplier IIRC, so against a powerful demon or devil they're positively lethal if they can get a charge...

It would be enough to push tier 4 if they could smite more than a couple times a day. Like say if smite were x/encounter. But at a max of 5/day? Yeah, they're good at one thing, and not particularly great at that. The definition of tier 5.


edit:
I more or less do, actually. "Genre" might be the wrong word, though.


The word he's looking for to placate him is "medium" rather than "genre". Some anime lovers get really upset at the thought that all anime is cut of the same cloth, rather than recognizing that despite there being many genres encompassed within anime, for the most part almost all of it shares a lot of the same stylistic elements that people tend to dislike.

[Veyr]

He has a valid point, I think, but meh. Really not appropriate for the discussion.

Anyway, Paladin is very definitely not Tier-4 in Core. Being a "decent charger" does not make one Tier-4. The Fighter can do that and is, for good reason, Tier-5. Fighter is probably a better Ubercharger than Paladin anyway. I don't know enough about the Paladin's splat-options, but I tend to trust the Tier list; I personally agree with every ranking on the list for classes that I am familiar with.

[sonofzeal]

There are common stylistic elements in Japanese Anime that are different than western shows, and I'm not only talking about the artwork.
Name five non-artwork stylistic elements in common between Gurren Lagann (http://fraunhofer.rtk.gen.tr/meta/4/5123.jpg), Maria-sama Ga Miteru (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MIp0i0ilP1k/Rei1DqSVuWI/AAAAAAAAAno/EnLv_pV_BaY/s400/MariMite_350x394.jpg), Mononoke (http://www.ioffer.com/img/item/147/343/923/mononoke-tv-complete-on-dvd-episodes-1-12-f2341.jpg), Blood+ (http://static.zerochan.net/full/27/02/167627.jpg), and Cutie Honey (http://www.sarudama.com/movies/images/cutiehoney2.jpg).

"Anime" is not a genre, because it encompasses a variety of genres. "Magical Girl" is a fairly well-defined genre, but I can list a dozen anime off the top of my head that have no relationship with the conventions of Magical Girl shows. If all you've seen are Magical Girls, then it could appear that anime = magical girl = a single genre. But a wider experience puts the lie to that.

[Talya]

He has a valid point, I think, but meh. Really not appropriate for the discussion.

Anyway, Paladin is very definitely not Tier-4 in Core. Being a "decent charger" does not make one Tier-4. The Fighter can do that and is, for good reason, Tier-5. Fighter is probably a better Ubercharger than Paladin anyway. I don't know enough about the Paladin's splat-options, but I tend to trust the Tier list; I personally agree with every ranking on the list for classes that I am familiar with.

Paladins can be combined with some unexpected classes in some odd ways to easily reach tier 3 (Bardadin! - although, it doesn't actually surpass just single-classed bard, it only makes the bard more martial and less magic - the remarkable thing is it doesn't make the bard substantially worse), but the tier chart assumes single-classed. (and it really has to.) Paladin on its own is only tier 5, so yeah.

[Veyr]

I'm not seeing what a Paladin has to offer to a Bard aside from Divine Grace. Which isn't really worth two Bard levels. I mean, I'll believe that a Paladin 2/Bard 18 is Tier 3, but that's only because Bard is and it's mostly Bard levels.

[Seerow]

He has a valid point, I think, but meh. Really not appropriate for the discussion.

Anyway, Paladin is very definitely not Tier-4 in Core. Being a "decent charger" does not make one Tier-4. The Fighter can do that and is, for good reason, Tier-5. Fighter is probably a better Ubercharger than Paladin anyway. I don't know enough about the Paladin's splat-options, but I tend to trust the Tier list; I personally agree with every ranking on the list for classes that I am familiar with.

Personally I'd peg Warlock at tier3, it has access to just as many tricks as a Warblade or Crusader, and can use them all at will. The only reason it got pegged down to t4 is because its tricks aren't as nice as a Wizard's. It competes nicely with the ToB classes, Psiwar, and Bard. Beguiler and Dread Necro are harder, but they're at the upper end of tier 3, and borderline tier2, especially Dread Necro if you make heavy use of minions.

I'd also place Soulknife down in Tier6 rather than Tier5.

Other than that, I think I agree with all the placements, though I can empathize with the trouble that was involved with placing rogue.

[Yuki Akuma]

Can we just skip this whole argument you're trying to bring up which will inevitably derail the topic further and say I haven't found either a Shoujo or Shounen anime that I like?

A grown man doesn't like shows for kids. Shock. :smalltongue:

(Yes I'll go away now.)

[Talya]

I'm not seeing what a Paladin has to offer to a Bard aside from Divine Grace. Which isn't really worth two Bard levels. I mean, I'll believe that a Paladin 2/Bard 18 is Tier 3, but that's only because Bard is and it's mostly Bard levels.

Initiate of Milil, Devoted Performer, Snowflake Wardance, Power Attack, Divine Might. If you can get enough feats, throw in Dragonfire Inspiration, since you're pretty much maxing out Inspire Courage here, and getting the full 20 uses a day.

Pump charisma as high as possible, since you're getting it to saves, to Hit AND to damage most of the time. Feel free to be more paladin than bard (one good breakpoint is Bard 6 to get free "Song of the Heart") and go to town.

(For extra fun, assuming your DM has allowed flaws, take two levels of swordsage and ascetic mage.)

[Seerow]

A grown man doesn't like shows for kids. Shock. :smalltongue:

(Yes I'll go away now.)

If it makes you feel better I didn't like them any more when I was 10, but at least then I could watch them and just roll my eyes at stupid stuff :p.

[Keld Denar]

Paladin4/Bard16 with Devoted Performer actually grants Turn Undead, which synergizes with Cha, and according to the X to Y stat thread, about 1/3* of the good Cha to X abilities are derived from Turn Undead, about 1/3* of the rest come from using Bardic Music attempts, and thus you are tapping into about 2/3* of the ways to potentially swing your Cha score like a sword.

* more or less estimates

[McSmack]

So after a while of preventing miself from reading the book I got my hands on it last week and read it all.

Its not as game breaking as my friends allways said, i think the problem is the idea of learning new mechanics, its like introducing psionics in a table for the first time.

Shadow hand is cool but if i cant roll lots sneak d6 then its not worthy to be an assasin :smalltongue:
Iron heart concept its awesome too, the ultimate fighter as it should be, be one with your own weapon.
But the one I loved the most was the diamond mind dicipline and the ethernal blade PRC.

I want to play a ToB pc so bad... ill talk to one of my friends to be dm for a shot at least 1 night, and if they refuse then ill never be DM for our vampire the masquerade campaing ever again! :smallfurious:

My ideas so far are...

Swashbuckler3/Warblade7/Ethernal blade 10

Max out profit from INT:
Insightfull strike (swash)
Find a way to fit knowledge devotion feat?

Please share your forbiden ToB knowledge with me, help me exploit the diamond mind PrC

I understand your frustration sir. I too was once a tome of battle detractor, due mainly to a misunderstanding from a bad DM.

Once I actually sat down and gave it a read I was impressed by how good it was. It's very nice to see melee/mundane classes get some more complex abilities as an analog to caster's spells.

I've rolled up a couple of ToB characters that are just waiting for a game. I've been sorely tempted to join a PbP for the first time just to give one a whirl.

I wouldn't classify them as anime. Though that is the most visible comparison, I think it's more accurate to say that many anime and ToB share similar themes derived from the same source. There's plenty of documented examples of martial organizations devoted to studying/engaging in combat. This is not an eastern or western thing, many cultures have elite fighting groups who developed their own specialized fighting styles. I think tome of battle, in the fluff at least, reflects that.

As for the naming conventions they used...well there's only so many ways to say "jump and slash someone" or "stab a dude in the kidney". Honestly the convention doesn't seem any more far fetched than Bigby's Interposing Hand or Abi Dalzim's' Horrid Wilting.

[Grendus]

Paladin4/Bard16 with Devoted Performer actually grants Turn Undead, which synergizes with Cha, and according to the X to Y stat thread, about 1/3* of the good Cha to X abilities are derived from Turn Undead, about 1/3* of the rest come from using Bardic Music attempts, and thus you are tapping into about 2/3* of the ways to potentially swing your Cha score like a sword.

* more or less estimates

Even better, make it divine bard and now you get DMM shenanigans with your bard spells. Plus, unlike clerics, bardadins stack charisma, so they have a mess of turn attempts to use even before nightsticks.


As for chargers not being T4, I've always presumed that uberchargers were T4 by virtue of being optimized. The definition of T5 is "only able to do one thing, and not particularly well". The definition of T4 is "capable of doing one thing very well or many things adequately". Uberchargers are very good at making things vulnerable to melee very dead, and paladins class features synergize decently with that (Smite Evil multiplies with charge bonus, decent mount options that can withstand the occasional melee, a few buff spells that are actually worth casting if you don't have a cleric to cast them for you) even within core. I've always felt the paladin as T5 argument was for people who play the class as it was envisioned - shining knight on a white horse charging a dragon with sword and shield drawn, which is quite frankly suicide. Charging a dragon with a lance on a pegasus isn't much saner, but has a much higher survival rate (ride-by attack lets you hit it at least once without getting eviscerated by a draconic full attack, and with enough buffs the paladin could actually hurt the dragon enough to be more than the guy who brought the dragon a meal and a toothpick). Still T4, and low T4 at that, but T4 nonetheless.

[Veyr]

{Bard/Paladin stuffs}
Ah, I thought we were talking in Core. I already pointed out that I don't know the non-Core options for Paladin all that well, heh.

[Talya]

Name five non-artwork stylistic elements in common between Gurren Lagann (http://fraunhofer.rtk.gen.tr/meta/4/5123.jpg), Maria-sama Ga Miteru (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MIp0i0ilP1k/Rei1DqSVuWI/AAAAAAAAAno/EnLv_pV_BaY/s400/MariMite_350x394.jpg), Mononoke (http://www.ioffer.com/img/item/147/343/923/mononoke-tv-complete-on-dvd-episodes-1-12-f2341.jpg), Blood+ (http://static.zerochan.net/full/27/02/167627.jpg), and Cutie Honey (http://www.sarudama.com/movies/images/cutiehoney2.jpg).


Of those, I've only watched Mononoke (and...i really wanted to like it...I really did...but I didn't. I've watched every single Miyazaki movie that has been redubbed by Disney with good voice actors in north america, and every one of them has left me wondering why he's considered so great.)

I will, however, list several things many will likely have in common that have nothing to do with the style of the pictorial artwork itself (although they may be related to animation style or other visual elements):

Speed Lines.
Face Faults and other, bizarre, common facial expressions to denote various moods.
The mallet pulled from nowhere.
The ridiculous sweat of the embarrassed.
Women that scream worse than leading ladies from the 40's, usually while standing like an Edvard Munch painting.
Melodrama in spades. (I don't mind angst. Just...have a point behind it.)
The bloody nose and inappropriate blushing

I'd comment on strange plot devices, but the common ones are not limited to anime, but are common in other asian entertainment, such as Wuxia films and the like. Based on how much I can't stand even the most acclaimed of them that manage to become heard of here (and again, giving them a fair trial, such films as Crouching Tiger, House of Flying Daggers, or Hero failed to win me over), I have to think this is a cultural divide that just doesn't work for me.

There's an entire TVTropes page dedicated to common anime elements.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimeTropes

Anyway, as I've said, I actually liked Appleseed. Robotech, too. (Far better than its Macross original, for plot.)

Is anime a genre? The word Genre refers to "any category of literature or other forms of art or culture, e.g. music, and in general, any type of discourse, whether written or spoken, audial or visual, based on some set of stylistic criteria." By that definition it qualifies on several fronts. It's certainly not a genre of storytelling, as it's simply a medium by which many different types of stories can be told. But it is a genre of art based on a set of stylistic criteria. The word "genre" works.

[Gametime]

The word he's looking for to placate him is "medium" rather than "genre". Some anime lovers get really upset at the thought that all anime is cut of the same cloth, rather than recognizing that despite there being many genres encompassed within anime, for the most part almost all of it shares a lot of the same stylistic elements that people tend to dislike.

This comes across as more combative than I assume you meant it. In particular, the implication that using the word "medium" is just to placate us crazy anime fans and not, in fact, an accurate word to use; the implication that anime "lovers" (not fans?) are getting upset at the use of the word genre when there's no reason to; and the fact that you say all this despite admitting that anime encompasses several different genres anyway.

Again, I'm guessing your words weren't intended condescendingly, but they kind of came off that way.



Is anime a genre? The word Genre refers to "any category of literature or other forms of art or culture, e.g. music, and in general, any type of discourse, whether written or spoken, audial or visual, based on some set of stylistic criteria." By that definition it qualifies on several fronts. It's certainly not a genre of storytelling, as it's simply a medium by which many different types of stories can be told. But it is a genre of art based on a set of stylistic criteria. The word "genre" works.

We could probably debate all day about what "stylistic criteria" means, but I don't think the common elements you listed qualify (or, at the very least, don't comprise a satisfactory list to make anime a genre). At any rate, the existence of animes which lack those qualities makes the idea that they prove it's a genre sort of wrong; either you have to stop calling those anime (which would be a misuse of the word), or you have to say that anime is both a genre and a medium, which is... weird. (Off the top of my head, I don't think Death Note had any of the listed tropes except speed lines, but I could well be wrong. There are probably better examples. Monster, maybe?)

[sonofzeal]

Of those, I've only watched Mononoke (and...i really wanted to like it...I really did...but I didn't. I've watched every single Miyazaki movie that has been redubbed by Disney with good voice actors in north america, and every one of them has left me wondering why he's considered so great.)

I will, however, list several things many will likely have in common that have nothing to do with the style of the pictorial artwork itself (although they may be related to animation style or other visual elements):

Speed Lines.
Face Faults and other, bizarre, common facial expressions to denote various moods.
The mallet pulled from nowhere.
The ridiculous sweat of the embarrassed.
Women that scream worse than leading ladies from the 40's, usually while standing like an Edvard Munch painting.
Melodrama in spades. (I don't mind angst. Just...have a point behind it.)
The bloody nose and inappropriate blushing

I'd comment on strange plot devices, but the common ones are not limited to anime, but are common in other asian entertainment, such as Wuxia films and the like. Based on how much I can't stand even the most acclaimed of them that manage to become heard of here (and again, giving them a fair trial, such films as Crouching Tiger, House of Flying Daggers, or Hero failed to win me over), I have to think this is a cultural divide that just doesn't work for me.

There's an entire TVTropes page dedicated to common anime elements.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimeTropes

Anyway, as I've said, I actually liked Appleseed. Robotech, too. (Far better than its Macross original, for plot.)

Is anime a genre? The word Genre refers to "any category of literature or other forms of art or culture, e.g. music, and in general, any type of discourse, whether written or spoken, audial or visual, based on some set of stylistic criteria." By that definition it qualifies on several fronts. It's certainly not a genre of storytelling, as it's simply a medium by which many different types of stories can be told. But it is a genre of art based on a set of stylistic criteria. The word "genre" works.
Er, wrong Mononoke.

There's "Princess Mononoke (http://cpocalyk.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/princessmononoke3.jpg)", a Miyazaki film that makes progressively less and less sense as it goes. And then there's Mononoke (http://www.ioffer.com/img/item/147/343/923/mononoke-tv-complete-on-dvd-episodes-1-12-f2341.jpg), a TV show styled after traditional woodcut drawings, which is completely surreal but kind of awesome. If you enjoy the paintings of Salvador Dali, and have any curiosity about traditional Japanese folklore, it's an enjoyable experience.

Going through the tropes you've mentioned, most of them are comedic in nature. You'll find them in shows intended to be at least somewhat humorous, but not in more serious ones.

- Gurren Lagann, being somewhat comedic for large portions, has pretty much all of those.

- Maria-sama largely passes though. Yumi specifically might "face-fault" and "sweat-drop", but if so then she's the only one. I'm fairly confident there's no speed-lines, mallet-space, painful-screams, and melodrama is entirely withing reason for the most part.

- Mononoke, I don't believe has any of those. Possibly the painful-scream, but having a woman scream in a semi-horror-themed tv show is hardly a distinctively anime touch.

- Blood+, I don't believe has any of those.

- Cutie Honey, it depends on the incarnation, but being largely a comedic show it tends to fall prey to them. Mallet-space is justified in this instance though, since Honey very specifically is able to create objects using the Ai-System in every incarnation. I don't think she's ever actually used a mallet. Come to think of it, in the 100-something anime type shows I've seen, I'm not sure I've even once seen a mallet used in the described way.

......again, I'm really not seeing it. None of those listed traits tie the whole list together. Mononoke and Blood+ are very clearly "anime", nobody would mistake them for anything else, but they have very little relationship with anything there. Maria-sama flirts with a couple, but they don't define the show's stylistic content in any meaningful way. There's a certain artistic resemblance that passes through them all, but even that's hard to quantify.

Is Betty Boop (http://c.editingmyspace.com/files/en/betty.boop/betty_boop_031.gif) anime? It certainly shares many of the common artistic traits, notably big eyes and small mouths. Is Scooby Doo (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HijhRK2BkjA/TCA8S1UTndI/AAAAAAAAC7Q/PcQ3aV-Ev6k/s400/scoobydoo.jpg) anime? I'm pretty sure there's a "face-fault" in that very image, and I'm equally sure I could find an example of the "painful-scream" thing if I looked.

Now, there are certainly stylistic elements that are fairly unique, but I think they more accurately belong in more precise categories. "Magical Girl" is a genre with definable stylistic content. "Mecha" might qualify too, although I might want to draw a line between those attempting to portray something near-future and realistic, and those that just go for extreme hilarity. "Yaoi" certainly has its own stylings over and above the defining male-male content. I could also see an argument for lumping all of "japanese animate comedy" into its own genre, defined by many of the tropes you listed.

I guess the reason people, including myself, don't like to hear "anime" referred to as a genre, is that it denies a lot of the more serious content. Gurren Lagann and Princess Tutu and Trigun are three of my favourite shows and they fall into that, but I also loved Gungrave and Mononoke and Maria-sama which don't. It's over-generalizing, and I find it's often used as a way to dismiss the whole category as if the mediocre pablum that gets peddled on daytime TV in the States defined the medium. I'm not going to say "go and check out X and Y and Z" because I'm sure if you watch TV you already have shows you like, and there's no reason for me to recommend anime to you when there's plenty of non-anime you'd enjoy just as well. Just recognize that the variety out there is too great to be summed up in a single genre.

[Heatwizard]

I think this is a lot of fuss to be making over some rather inconsequential semantics.

[Gametime]

Inconsequential compared to world politics or inconsequential compared to discussing the finer points of Dungeons & Dragons?

[Talya]

Inconsequential compared to world politics or inconsequential compared to discussing the finer points of Dungeons & Dragons?

Ha. Point taken.

Anyway, if Anime was not a genre, then it would not have "fans." While it is true that there are many diverse types of Anime with very different purposes, telling very diverse story types, there are dozens of people here, and on other message boards I frequent, that seem, at best, highly interested in Anime, and at worst, utterly obsessed by it. I know several that won't watch a western TV show, Anime is all they ever watch. Likewise, there are many who cannot tolerate or stand the stuff. (I dislike the artwork in general, and some of the more common anime tropes as well, but out of an open mind and a desire to keep giving things another chance, I always challenge that perception and frequently try to find anime that I like--with some very occasional success.) If Anime had no points that linked it together as a somewhat cohesive genre, this wouldn't happen.

The thing is, I don't realy feel any of those anime common elements/tropes when using Tome of Battle. Tome of Battle certainly could be played with anime stylings, but then so can D&D in general.


I used to feel that the game "Exalted" (By White Wolf) oozed anime from every pore. (Miraculously, I liked it anyway.) Its own artwork likely helped out, but it really does contain a few anime tropes. But then I realized many of these tropes are also present in a particular video game that I liked - Bioware's Jade Empire. Jade Empire never felt like Anime to me. Once I stopped comparing Exalted to Anime, and started thinking more Wuxia stylings (which I'm also not all that fond of), I no longer envisioned speed-lines every time I used an attack charm in Exalted.

[The-Mage-King]

Ha. Point taken.

Anyway, if Anime was not a genre, then it would not have "fans."

... There are film fans. Would you call "Film" a genre?

No? Then Anime isn't a genre, damnit.


Also, this thread appears to have derailed.

[Andreaz]

Curiously, most of the art and resources used by Anime were inspired by Walt Disney in the beginning of the past century. There's a cyclic relationship between both landmasses as far as art goes.

[Talya]

... There are film fans. Would you call "Film" a genre?


While there may very well be people that are absolutely obsessed with film in general, most "film fans" have subsets of film that they are actually fans of. Those subsets do tend to be genres. (They may be fans of several genres, but typically, not all.) Even if just for the artwork style, Anime is a genre (although that style would be lumped with Manga, making them one common genre across two separate mediums.)

And my last post talked about whether TOB was "Anime!"

[Big Fau]

Ha. Point taken.

Anyway, if Anime was not a genre, then it would not have "fans." While it is true that there are many diverse types of Anime with very different purposes, telling very diverse story types, there are dozens of people here, and on other message boards I frequent, that seem, at best, highly interested in Anime, and at worst, utterly obsessed by it. I know several that won't watch a western TV show, Anime is all they ever watch. Likewise, there are many who cannot tolerate or stand the stuff. (I dislike the artwork in general, and some of the more common anime tropes as well, but out of an open mind and a desire to keep giving things another chance, I always challenge that perception and frequently try to find anime that I like--with some very occasional success.) If Anime had no points that linked it together as a somewhat cohesive genre, this wouldn't happen.

The thing is, I don't realy feel any of those anime common elements/tropes when using Tome of Battle. Tome of Battle certainly could be played with anime stylings, but then so can D&D in general.


I used to feel that the game "Exalted" (By White Wolf) oozed anime from every pore. (Miraculously, I liked it anyway.) Its own artwork likely helped out, but it really does contain a few anime tropes. But then I realized many of these tropes are also present in a particular video game that I liked - Bioware's Jade Empire. Jade Empire never felt like Anime to me. Once I stopped comparing Exalted to Anime, and started thinking more Wuxia stylings (which I'm also not all that fond of), I no longer envisioned speed-lines every time I used an attack charm in Exalted.

You should try script reading. Or read the novelizations (some of them are decent, and the best ones are done by the original authors). Because from the sounds of it, you dislike how they stylize the art more than the storylines.


And Bebop has relatively few of the zany traits common to most Anime shows (save for a few of the episodes). If it weren't for the art stylization, you wouldn't be able to tell it was made in Japan.

[Talya]

You should try script reading. Or read the novelizations (some of them are decent, and the best ones are done by the original authors). Because from the sounds of it, you dislike how they stylize the art more than the storylines.


And Bebop has relatively few of the zany traits common to most Anime shows (save for a few of the episodes). If it weren't for the art stylization, you wouldn't be able to tell it was made in Japan.

You are undoubtedly right. Even the non-artistic element would be lessened or eliminated in the scripts.

Ah! I forgot Cowboy Bebop. It impressed me - very Fireflyesque. Unfortunately, however, having to read subtitles really lessens the enjoyment of something for me, and i've never seen dubs of it other than the one movie. (Also, dubs are often of very poor quality.)

[Yuki Akuma]

I am an anime fan. I do not like every single anime ever made. In fact I can't stand horror anime at all.

Also: yes, dubs are generally awful. Don't watch them. (Cowboy Bebop actually has a good dub. Several anime films do, too. Most shows, though... don't.)

[The-Mage-King]

While there may very well be people that are absolutely obsessed with film in general, most "film fans" have subsets of film that they are actually fans of. Those subsets do tend to be genres. (They may be fans of several genres, but typically, not all.) Even if just for the artwork style, Anime is a genre (although that style would be lumped with Manga, making them one common genre across two separate mediums.)

And my last post talked about whether TOB was "Anime!"

And like those film fans, anime fans have subsets of anime that they're actually fans of. I, personally, fall in the area of Shonen/Giant Mecha/Sentai genre fans. I don't particularly like stuff in the Shojo or Slice of Life genres.

As for your last point, I wass ignoring that, and going on about how anime isn't a genre, by comparing it to another medium that is widely known.

[Andreaz]

You are undoubtedly right. Even the non-artistic element would be lessened or eliminated in the scripts.

Ah! I forgot Cowboy Bebop. It impressed me - very Fireflyesque. Unfortunately, however, having to read subtitles really lessens the enjoyment of something for me, and i've never seen dubs of it other than the one movie. (Also, dubs are often of very poor quality.)

It's the other way around. Firefly is bebop-esque.
And on havin to read subs, go find the dubbed version for Cowboy Bebop. It's hailed as one of the best english dubs ever made for an anime. The author likes it better than the original.

[Talya]

I am an anime fan. I do not like every single anime ever made. In fact I can't stand horror anime at all.

Also: yes, dubs are generally awful. Don't watch them. (Cowboy Bebop actually has a good dub. Several anime films do, too. Most shows, though... don't.)

Yes, this is why I tried to cut my teeth on Miyazaki films. I'd heard that Disney did a very good job with dubbing them. Unfortunately, the strong dubs didn't help stories that I generally found nonsensical.

Appleseed had a pretty good dub, too. Appleseed: Ex Machina, unfortunately, kinda sucked (dub or not, the story wasn't as good. This isn't an anime issue, but sequelitis.)

[Big Fau]

Check your PMs Talya. I'm trying not to derail the thread any more than this.

[Talya]

It's the other way around. Firefly is bebop-esque.
And on havin to read subs, go find the dubbed version for Cowboy Bebop. It's hailed as one of the best english dubs ever made for an anime. The author likes it better than the original.

Excellent, I think I'd like it. (considering I was rather impressed when watching it even in Japanese with subtitles. Not impressed enough to keep tolerating subtitles, mind you.) Also, Big Fau suggested if I liked Appleseed, I might like Ghost in the Shell. Couple more things to try...and currently out of TV shows...

[Yuki Akuma]

The only thing I have against the Cowboy Bebop dub is that Edward's VA was better in the original.

Spike's VA was awful in the original, though.

[Big Fau]

Excellent, I think I'd like it. (considering I was rather impressed when watching it even in Japanese with subtitles. Not impressed enough to keep tolerating subtitles, mind you.) Also, Big Fau suggested if I liked Appleseed, I might like Ghost in the Shell. Couple more things to try...and currently out of TV shows...

Then there's the one where my namesake is from, but that's... complicated. Check the TVTropes article on The Big O. It'll save a long post.

[Yuki Akuma]

Then there's the one where my namesake is from, but that's... complicated. Check the TVTropes article on The Big O. It'll save a long post.

It's Batman with giant robots and theater allusions.

That's really all it is.

[Big Fau]

It's Batman with giant robots and theater allusions.

That's really all it is.

It had a plot set up for Season 3, but then it got canned and nothing was resolved (except for the rushed ending of Season 2, which is a bit screwy).

[Warlawk]

Genre


1.
a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like: the genre of epic poetry; the genre of symphonic music.

Is anime a class of movie/show? Yes. Is anime a category of movie/show? Yes.


1. a. kind, category, or sort, esp of literary or artistic work
b. (as modifier): genre fiction

Is anime a kind of movie/show? Yes. Is anime a sort of movie/show? Yes.

Seems pretty clear to me that anime qualifies as a genre. Some people may not like that due to the baggage they carry for the word Genre, but it pretty clearly meets the technical definitions of the word. The very fact that you can say '<this show> is anime' means that it meets the definitions.

As to the OP, that's great man. Our group pretty much universally agrees that ToB was one of the best 3.5 books ever put out. Our whole group is at least passingly familiar with anime and ranges from indifferent to casual fan status and no one has ever commented on ToB being anime with one exception. That exception would be 'creeping ice enervating strike" or whatever the heck it is, and that's mostly just the cheesy title which evokes bad wuxia film just as heavily. As everyone can see however, ToB tends to polarize the boards a bit. The main thing you need to keep in mind is that if it's fun for you and your group, the internet public can go hang.

[Veyr]

Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike always struck me as a reference to Kill Bill, though obviously the Five-Pointed Palm Exploding Heart Technique was itself an homage to earlier kung-fu (or, likely, wire-fu) movies. Though those are genres I am as ignorant of as I am with the medium of anime.

[Big Fau]

Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike always struck me as a reference to Kill Bill, though obviously the Five-Pointed Palm Exploding Heart Technique was itself an homage to earlier kung-fu (or, likely, wire-fu) movies. Though those are genres I am as ignorant of as I am with the medium of anime.

I want to say the move is an overall reference to Jackie Chan's Drunken Master, but I really don't know why I'm thinking that.

[sonofzeal]

Seems pretty clear to me that anime qualifies as a genre. Some people may not like that due to the baggage they carry for the word Genre, but it pretty clearly meets the technical definitions of the word. The very fact that you can say '<this show> is anime' means that it meets the definitions.
You're skipping some key words there, specifically "having a particular form, content, technique, or the like". It is certainly a "class or category", but the form, content, and technique vary widely enough that it becomes difficult to lump them under one umbrella like that.

Consider: is "Western Animation" a genre? It satisfies your reduced criteria, but I think few would argue that The Little Mermaid (http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/t/the_little_mermaid-4939.jpg) is the same genre as Fritz the Cat (http://www.krisjacque.com/images/fritzTheCat_39.jpg), or that Ducktales (http://roseweaver.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/ducktales.jpg) is the same genre as Beavis and Butthead (http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/image/images/small-bnb.gif).

Now, if you also define "Western Animation" as a genre, I think the discussion moves from whether anime is a genre, to exactly how you define a genre. I'd tend to be a bit more specific though.



Oh, and as much as I'd call myself an "anime fan", I'm generally not a fan of much of the more "light" anime. I didn't like Fushigi Yuugi, Ranma 1/2, or Dragonball Z. I've seen a huge amount of anime, and I like a wide variety of it, but what I prefer is the more expressive style and the story/character focus that seems lacking in a lot of western equivalents. I also find there's deeper philosophical undertones and more willingness to address themes like good vs evil in a much more nuanced way than we tend to do over here (I'm thinking of Trigun specifically). I don't think any of that defines a "genre" though, as almost any genre could include those elements. But they do attract me to anime more than to many western products.

[Gametime]

To follow up on what sonofzeal said, I don't think I'd mind anime being called a genre if I thought the same label would be applied to Western animation (or American animation, or North American animation, or however you want to divvy up the regions). There would still be problems with using the word, but there always are when you try to apply broad classifications to diverse art forms. Usually, though, I get the sense that people think of anime as a genre where they wouldn't for animation from other regions, which then ties into the fact that anime is often pigeonholed and perceived as being this very narrow range of tropes and styles. If I didn't think calling it a "genre" was an attempt to dismiss it or push it all into one small corner, I probably wouldn't object to the word as much. (I still wouldn't like it, because I honestly don't think it's the best word to use, but my pedantry isn't so powerful that I'd argue about it on the internet... as strenuously.)

[Talya]

To follow up on what sonofzeal said, I don't think I'd mind anime being called a genre if I thought the same label would be applied to Western animation (or American animation, or North American animation, or however you want to divvy up the regions). There would still be problems with using the word, but there always are when you try to apply broad classifications to diverse art forms. Usually, though, I get the sense that people think of anime as a genre where they wouldn't for animation from other regions, which then ties into the fact that anime is often pigeonholed and perceived as being this very narrow range of tropes and styles. If I didn't think calling it a "genre" was an attempt to dismiss it or push it all into one small corner, I probably wouldn't object to the word as much. (I still wouldn't like it, because I honestly don't think it's the best word to use, but my pedantry isn't so powerful that I'd argue about it on the internet... as strenuously.)

Artisticly, Anime is a very narrow range. It does not mean "Japanese Animation." It only originated in Japan. If an animated japanese movie or show did not look like Anime, it would not be Anime. Anime is not defined by where it comes from...you can make anime in north america. It's defined by stylistic elements.

[Warlawk]

For what it's worth, I'm not saying it's a genre to dismiss it or put it in any box. While I don't follow anime much anymore, I got into long enough ago that some people on these boards were still in diapers. I remember when scoring a new subtitled VHS of bubblegum crisis was hitting solid gold. Watching Lensman with no dubs or subs and vampire hunter D was that cutting edge new school stuff. Back when Robotech was still an unfinished series. Akira is in my DVD cabinet and one of my favorite flicks.

Just pointing out, not everyone who says anime is a genre is trying to dismiss it or put a simple label on it. I'm well aware there are many subgenre distinctions and minutae, not all of them to my liking. But on the larger scale I have a long history of friendly familiarity with anime.

So perhaps your own baggage is adding a bit of a sinister coloring to your interpretation of other peoples statements on the subject.

[Gametime]

Artisticly, Anime is a very narrow range. It does not mean "Japanese Animation." It only originated in Japan. If an animated japanese movie or show did not look like Anime, it would not be Anime. Anime is not defined by where it comes from...you can make anime in north america. It's defined by stylistic elements.

That's a definition of "anime" I've never seen before. It is literally the Japanese term for animation. If you'd rather say that anime is the set of animation that shares x, y, and z artistic elements, that's... fine, I guess, but I don't think that's what people usually mean. Also, it's mildly question-begging, since you're basically then saying "anime shares these elements because anime is defined as having these elements." There's nothing wrong with using that definition, but if you are then we've basically been talking past each other since when I say anime is a diverse field, I'm talking about Japanese animation as a whole. If we're only talking about those shows which are stereotypically "anime," then I've got no reason to object to your characterization of them as... well, stereotypically anime.


For what it's worth, I'm not saying it's a genre to dismiss it or put it in any box. While I don't follow anime much anymore, I got into long enough ago that some people on these boards were still in diapers. I remember when scoring a new subtitled VHS of bubblegum crisis was hitting solid gold. Watching Lensman with no dubs or subs and vampire hunter D was that cutting edge new school stuff. Back when Robotech was still an unfinished series. Akira is in my DVD cabinet and one of my favorite flicks.

Just pointing out, not everyone who says anime is a genre is trying to dismiss it or put a simple label on it. I'm well aware there are many subgenre distinctions and minutae, not all of them to my liking. But on the larger scale I have a long history of friendly familiarity with anime.

So perhaps your own baggage is adding a bit of a sinister coloring to your interpretation of other peoples statements on the subject.

You don't have to dislike anime to pigeonhole it. I'm curious - would you consider American animation a single genre? If not, is it because you honestly think American animation covers a broader spectrum of themes and styles than Japanese? (Not to assert that that isn't true - although I don't believe it is. I'm just curious.)

[Warlawk]

I'm curious - would you consider American animation a single genre? If not, is it because you honestly think American animation covers a broader spectrum of themes and styles than Japanese? (Not to assert that that isn't true - although I don't believe it is. I'm just curious.)

Actually I would probably say that american animation is a much less developed genre than anime is. As for defining it as a single genre, I'm not sure. The issue there mostly boils down to one subject. In american animation you tend to have two types, kids animation and adult animation (in the sense of intended audience, not porn). For a long time it was a very cleanly defined line, and even now I think it is a pretty clear split in movie/show design. While many of the movies and shows released for kids have a lot of things added to them to make them more appealing to adults, they are by and large a kids program written for, intended for and marketed at kids. While true adult american animation by and large is a very undeveloped subject which mostly are either comedy (American dad, family guy etc) or targeted at gamers/scifi fans or other niche markets.

I suppose that ramble is to say that I think it's harder to decisively say it is a single genre because our society has placed a much clearer distinction between animation and childrens animation. If really pushed, I would say that yes it is a single genre with important subgenres for distinction of subject matter, which is pretty much how I feel about anime. It is a genre with numerous subgenres that appeal to different audiences and have different subject matter, but each of them is still anime.

[Talya]

That's a definition of "anime" I've never seen before. It is literally the Japanese term for animation.

Yes, under the japanese definition of anime, western animation is also anime...it just means "animation," but that's kind of useless for this discusion, because when people say that they like or dislike anime, they are not referring to animation in general. Even you aren't think of Star Wars: The Clone Wars or Looney Toons as "anime." So lets use the English language definition:



In Japan, the term anime does not specify an animation's nation of origin or style; instead, it serves as a blanket term to refer to all forms of animation from around the world. English-language dictionaries define anime as "a Japanese style of motion-picture animation" or as "a style of animation developed in Japan".

[Prime32]

Yes, under the japanese definition of anime, western animation is also anime...it just means "animation," but that's kind of useless for this discusion, because when people say that they like or dislike anime, they are not referring to animation in general. Even you aren't think of Star Wars: The Clone Wars or Looney Toons as "anime."Yes, anime means "animation". However, using the Japanese word for animation implies Japanese animation, in the same way that someone referencing an "autobahn" is probably talking about a motorway in Germany rather than just any motorway.

[ImperatorK]

Is there a chance that this discusion returns on topic?

[Big Fau]

Is there a chance that this discusion returns on topic?

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/halolz-dot-com-nope.avi.gif

[pilvento]

Is there a chance that this discusion returns on topic?

Yup I think its lost... :smallsigh:

[Honest Tiefling]

I will agree that ToB has a very Wuxia and Kung-Fu feel to it. Some might call it anime. But I sorta am just reminded of old Indian myths a lot with the book, but I think Rakshasa are from India?

Through I think it is worth pointing out that the Valkriyes are lifted from Norse Mythology and I think the Crusader is more European. Given that the ol' Euros like their full plate. The restrictions on Stone Dragon also remind me of Greek Mythology, with Anteaus, who was unbeatable as long as he was in contact with the earth. I believe that the siangham was mentioned as a weapon for one of the disciplines, and is a weapon from Malaysia, through I could be mistaken. Maybe they just decided to rip off as many cultures as possible and see what happens.

I just think that most DMs and willing players can easily file off the ol' serial numbers and make it work for a swords n' sorcery set in Not Europe if people feel like it. I think people downplay the Wuxia and Kung-Fu feel of it, certainly, but I think people also downplay the fact that these elements can be easily taken away, unlike the Monk from core. (Which I admit, I am not fond of)

Also:

Inigo: You are using Bonetti's defense against me, uh?

Dread Pirate Roberts: I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.

Inigo: Naturally, you must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro.

Dread Pirate Roberts: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels Capo Ferro, don't you?

Inigo: Unless the enemy hasn't studied his Agrippa, which I have!

[Midnight_v]

So after a while of preventing miself from reading the book I got my hands on it last week and read it all.

Its not as game breaking as my friends allways said, i think the problem is the idea of learning new mechanics, its like introducing psionics in a table for the first time.

Shadow hand is cool but if i cant roll lots sneak d6 then its not worthy to be an assasin :smalltongue:
Iron heart concept its awesome too, the ultimate fighter as it should be, be one with your own weapon.
But the one I loved the most was the diamond mind dicipline and the ethernal blade PRC.

I want to play a ToB pc so bad... ill talk to one of my friends to be dm for a shot at least 1 night, and if they refuse then ill never be DM for our vampire the masquerade campaing ever again! :smallfurious:

My ideas so far are...

Swashbuckler3/Warblade7/Ethernal blade 10

Max out profit from INT:
Insightfull strike (swash)
Find a way to fit knowledge devotion feat?

Please share your forbiden ToB knowledge with me, help me exploit the diamond mind PrC

I just wanted to congratulate you on expanding your play base.
I felt like that at first, cause I felt insulted that I'd waited on more goodies for my precious fighter and got that instead!
Instead, its Dr.Strangelove: Or how Stopped hating and learned to love the Tob.
I hope everyone still playing gets there eventually.