Incarumun feats 3.5

[D Knight]

hi all i am in need of help to find a feat. the general idea of said feat was to use wisdom instead of Strength for BAB. i saw the feat a week ago and i finial got around to making an incarnate today. if anyone knows where to find it or the name i would be most thankful.

[Hatchet91]

exalted deeds i believe.

[Jude_H]

It's in Book of Exalted Deeds, so it's a problematic fit for an Incarnate (barring a refluff).

edit: If I mention it's called Intuitive Attack, the ninjaing might not make this completely useless. <_<

[Warlawk]

It's in Book of Exalted Deeds, so it's a problematic fit for an Incarnate (barring a refluff).

edit: If I mention it's called Intuitive Attack, the ninjaing might not make this completely useless. <_<

Yeah, that's a pretty easy refluff though.

Just a side note... 3.5 forum is that'away

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59

[Volthawk]

It's in Book of Exalted Deeds, so it's a problematic fit for an Incarnate (barring a refluff).

edit: If I mention it's called Intuitive Attack, the ninjaing might not make this completely useless. <_<

Well, it isn't if you play a Good Incarnate...

[Jude_H]

Well, it isn't if you play a Good Incarnate...
Bluesteel Gauntlets and Riding Gloves are the Incarnate's only damage sources that work with both good alignment (no Necrocarnum) and Intuitive Attack (simple melee weapons only).
None of the Incarnates attack boosts work with Good alignment.
The result is a 1/2 BA class with high AC and a potentially moderate attack bonus, but no uses for it.

Ardent/Soul Manifester and some of the Soulborn binds like Thunderstep Boots or Fearsome Mask might make Intuitive Attack + Incarnate workable, but the synergy is really lacking.

[Glimbur]

Zen Archery + Dissolving Spittle might also be viable.

Your larger problem is assuming that Incarnates need Wisdom just because the class description says so. The class description lies. All Wis is for is calculating save DC's, and it is quite possible to avoid soulmelds with saves.

[Warlawk]

This thread just made me wonder about the possibility of a class (aside from druids) that actually puts Vow of Poverty to good use. I'm only passingly familiar with incarnum, but from what I've seen it could actually make a pretty good VoP character. Will have to keep that in mind next time I get the chance to play.

[Blackfang108]

This thread just made me wonder about the possibility of a class (aside from druids) that actually puts Vow of Poverty to good use. I'm only passingly familiar with incarnum, but from what I've seen it could actually make a pretty good VoP character. Will have to keep that in mind next time I get the chance to play.

I believe I have read that it can, indeed, not lose power with VoP, largely because bound soulmelds cannot share space with magic items.

[Glimbur]

This thread just made me wonder about the possibility of a class (aside from druids) that actually puts Vow of Poverty to good use. I'm only passingly familiar with incarnum, but from what I've seen it could actually make a pretty good VoP character. Will have to keep that in mind next time I get the chance to play.

Incarnum can make up for some of the benefits you lose from wealth. It's possible to fly with soulmelds, phase through walls, teleport a little bit, get a pile of natural attacks, heal (a little), and have abilities that grow as you level. I'd still rather have the wealth, but it could work better than most classes with VoP.

[D Knight]

you guys forgot the feat Split Chara. it lets soulmelds and magic items share the same spot.

[Sir Swindle89]

you guys forgot the feat Split Chara. it lets soulmelds and magic items share the same spot.

so you can use a feat to have a magic item or use 2 feats to get superpowers and a bunch of sub par feats.

It still puts them in the top 5 list for classes that are decent with VoP

[Master_Rahl22]

We didn't forget it, it's just that with say 6 bound soulmelds I'd rather not need 6 copies of Split Chakra.

[MeeposFire]

I like to house rule that feats from the incarnum book can be taken as VoP bonus feats (such as shape soulmeld). This allows them to get some nice item like effects without overtly changing VoP.

[Draz74]

top 5 list for classes that are decent with VoP

I'd say six if I'm feeling nitpicky.

Druid
Incarnate
Totemist
Psion
Ardent
Swordsage

[Sir Swindle89]

Sorcerer is usually put up there some where.

[kestrel404]

Totemists work a lot better than Incarnates for this - natural attacks count as simple weapons. Your damage output will suffer but with multi-attack and a source of precision damage you can really pile on the attacks and do a decent job in melee as a 10-strength pouncer.

[MeeposFire]

Totemists work a lot better than Incarnates for this - natural attacks count as simple weapons. Your damage output will suffer but with multi-attack and a source of precision damage you can really pile on the attacks and do a decent job in melee as a 10-strength pouncer.

The only natural weapon that is a simple weapon as far as I know is unarmed strike. Granted natural weapons have no worth (money wise) so they are fully legal in VoP but where does it actually say natural weapons are simple weapons.

[kestrel404]

The only natural weapon that is a simple weapon as far as I know is unarmed strike. Granted natural weapons have no worth (money wise) so they are fully legal in VoP but where does it actually say natural weapons are simple weapons.

Sorry, you're right - natural weapons do not count as simple weapons. It's merely that the Intuitive Attack feat (which started this discussion) can be used with natural weapons in addition to simple weapons.

[Draz74]

Sorcerer is usually put up there some where.

They're ok, but they do at least have an annoying feat tax (Eschew Materials) before they can function.

[MeeposFire]

Sorry, you're right - natural weapons do not count as simple weapons. It's merely that the Intuitive Attack feat (which started this discussion) can be used with natural weapons in addition to simple weapons.

Ah I see then. Totemists are still not naturally proficient with their own weapons then. I thought for a second we had found a loophole.

[Sir Swindle89]

They're ok, but they do at least have an annoying feat tax (Eschew Materials) before they can function.

Sorc-1feat > Incarnate, Totemist, Swordsage

[Warlawk]

They're ok, but they do at least have an annoying feat tax (Eschew Materials) before they can function.

Wrong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY)


One option is for ascetic characters to beg components from other
party members, who are probably gaining as much benefit from
having the spell cast as the caster is. Alternatively, an ascetic
spellcaster can sacrifice experience points in place of expensive
components, with 1 XP equivalent to 5 gp value of components.

A basic component pouch is specifically allowed in another part of the text, and VoP allow you to burn XP for expensive components without need of a separate mechanic.

EDIT:

Sorc-1feat > Incarnate, Totemist, Swordsage

No one is really discussing which class is most powerful, but rather which classes have mechanics that function well with VoP. Of course Sorc is going to be more powerful than the other listed classes, it's a more powerful class.

[Sir Swindle89]

No one is really discussing which class is most powerful, but rather which classes have mechanics that function well with VoP. Of course Sorc is going to be more powerful than the other listed classes, it's a more powerful class.

He made a sratified list, i could only assume it was in decending power level (per his opinion)

[Warlawk]

He made a sratified list, i could only assume it was in decending power level (per his opinion)

Looked to me like it was just a numbered list, not organized by any sort of specific power level. I mean, ranking incarnate and totemist higher than psion and ardent kind of gives away the fact that it's not really that kind of list. At least IMO.

[Draz74]

No, it wasn't supposed to be in order of power. It was more or less supposed to be in order of "how much trouble is it to make this class work with VoP."

And ok, then Sorcerers work fine too. So there are seven classes that can function ok with VoP.

[Sir Swindle89]

Warlock? I can't think of any super critical stuff they need.

[Big Fau]

Ah I see then. Totemists are still not naturally proficient with their own weapons then. I thought for a second we had found a loophole.

Totemists are proficient with Natural Weapons. Everyone who has a natural weapon is proficient with them (Unarmed Strike being in limbo).

[MeeposFire]

Totemists are proficient with Natural Weapons. Everyone who has a natural weapon is proficient with them (Unarmed Strike being in limbo).

Nope assuming you are humanoid (which was what I am doing and considering most characters are I think that is safe) you are proficient with simple weapons or by class. The totemist does not list it being proficient with its natural weapons and if you are a humanoid then you are not. Oddly they are proficient with unarmed strikes but not claws, bites, or whatever. This is a common problem by RAW since about the only class that lists being proficient with natural weapons is the druid.

I think at some point the designers forgot that they needed to say you are proficient with natural attacks since how could you not be? Unfortunately that leads to RAW silliness such as this.

Now if you change your type to a non-humanoid this will often will eliminate the problem.

[Glimbur]

Warlock? I can't think of any super critical stuff they need.

It hurts to lose access to UMD. A Chasuble of Fell Power can be nice, depending on your focus. But they can fly and see invisible and such via invocations so they aren't terribad.

[wuwuwu]

Nope assuming you are humanoid (which was what I am doing and considering most characters are I think that is safe) you are proficient with simple weapons or by class. The totemist does not list it being proficient with its natural weapons and if you are a humanoid then you are not. Oddly they are proficient with unarmed strikes but not claws, bites, or whatever. This is a common problem by RAW since about the only class that lists being proficient with natural weapons is the druid.

I think at some point the designers forgot that they needed to say you are proficient with natural attacks since how could you not be? Unfortunately that leads to RAW silliness such as this.

Now if you change your type to a non-humanoid this will often will eliminate the problem.

Looking at Dragon Disciple, it's proficient with it's claws and bites... but yea looking around at various other natural attack classes it is a pretty big problem. You'd think later books would catch this...

[Sir Swindle89]

You'd think later books would catch this...

No, you'd think later books would look back and think "why the f*** would we need to specify that"

Oh look, thats what they did :smallsmile:

[Big Fau]

Nope assuming you are humanoid (which was what I am doing and considering most characters are I think that is safe) you are proficient with simple weapons or by class. The totemist does not list it being proficient with its natural weapons and if you are a humanoid then you are not. Oddly they are proficient with unarmed strikes but not claws, bites, or whatever. This is a common problem by RAW since about the only class that lists being proficient with natural weapons is the druid.

I think at some point the designers forgot that they needed to say you are proficient with natural attacks since how could you not be? Unfortunately that leads to RAW silliness such as this.

Now if you change your type to a non-humanoid this will often will eliminate the problem.

Who's idea was it to make Natural Weapons their own proficiency, and then not give it to the one class that uses them?

[MeeposFire]

Who's idea was it to make Natural Weapons their own proficiency, and then not give it to the one class that uses them?

Personally I think the problem is that they made it something you need to be proficient with. I think few people would have had a problem with the idea that proficiency was not needed with natural attacks or that you are always considered to be proficient with natural attacks (whichever way they prefer to write it) and in fact that would actually jive with how the rules were written for most everything post core. I haven't looked it up but it is possible natural weapon proficiencies are a holdover from 3.0 that got ported for core but was quickly forgotten but that would take some research.

[Fuhrmaaj]

Warlock? I can't think of any super critical stuff they need.

imo the Warlock doesn't have very much to gain either. The VoP greatly benefits classes which don't use armour and need to enchant multiple weapons. Warlocks benefit from armour (light, but that can be a mithril breastplate) and unless I'm mistaken you can't add the exalted strike to eldritch blast unless you use eldritch glaive or whatever.

They will do less damage without the chasuble of fell power too, I can't think of any other critical items though.

Another thing is you're locked into being a chaotic good character because Warlocks need to be either chaotic or evil. I can't think of anything this specifically affects, but it's not for everyone.

[MeeposFire]

I think the psychic warrior is in the same boat. Unless I am missing something beast claw and the like do not discuss proficiency and neither does the class description.

Also if it does not improve eldritch blast then it is unlikely going to improve elditch glaive. Remember it is not actually a glaive nor is it a weapon at all.