Optimized Level 20 Wizard > Unoptimized Level 30 Wizard?

[pegase]

Let's say you were a level 20 wizard asked to kill Elminster. (Yes, I've seen those "let's kill Elminster" threads, but they're mostly full of diplomacy-related cheeses.) Elminster is hardly optimized, and let's say he's not being played to his full potential, although a fairly intelligent individual is playing him. You are an unnamed level 20 wizard assigned to kill him. You, however, are optimized.

I've heard before that an optimized level 20 wizard is quite literally an unstoppable force. If so, then what steps would you take to kill Mr. Elminster on the spot?

[Caliphbubba]

Let's say you were a level 20 wizard asked to kill Elminster. (Yes, I've seen those "let's kill Elminster" threads, but they're mostly full of diplomacy-related cheeses.) Elminster is hardly optimized, and let's say he's not being played to his full potential, although a fairly intelligent individual is playing him. You are an unnamed level 20 wizard assigned to kill him. You, however, are optimized.

I've heard before that an optimized level 20 wizard is quite literally an unstoppable force. If so, then what steps would you take to kill Mr. Elminster on the spot?

Does Elminster "Level 30 Wizard" dude have Epic Magic? if so, you lose. period.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think (im)proper use of Shapechange and Gate can get you loops/shenanigans, and then you can go from there. Assuming the Elminster player either doesn't read the charop forums or is lactose intolerant, breaking the game will get it done.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's say you were a level 20 wizard asked to kill Elminster. (Yes, I've seen those "let's kill Elminster" threads, but they're mostly full of diplomacy-related cheeses.) Elminster is hardly optimized, and let's say he's not being played to his full potential, although a fairly intelligent individual is playing him. You are an unnamed level 20 wizard assigned to kill him. You, however, are optimized.

I've heard before that an optimized level 20 wizard is quite literally an unstoppable force. If so, then what steps would you take to kill Mr. Elminster on the spot?
Depends on how optimized vs. how unoptimized.

A Wizard-20 built reasonably vs. a Wizard-30 with an Int score (after items) of 8, the Wizard-20 will win.

A Wizard-20, built for it, can very readily pull off Pun-Pun. In which case, yes, the Wizard-20 wins (by a lot) if the Wizard-30 isn't pulling similar shenanigans.

What's your cheese tolerance? Uncapped loops OK? PrC Diptastic builds?

[pegase]

The best way to describe the cheese tolerance is this. What cheese the caster uses should be "reasonable" enough such that, if as a first offense, the DM won't explicitly mind; however, as a second offense, the DM will be forced to speak up.

The level 30 wizard we'll say has an intelligence of 24.

It'd probably be preferable if everything was limited to things I could find online.

[Ernir]

A surprise round + metamagic'ed orb to the face should kill him. Or hell, ANYTHING. Having lots of levels is pointless if you're not using them.


Does Elminster "Level 30 Wizard" dude have Epic Magic? if so, you lose. period.
He doesn't.

Also, Epic Spellcasting isn't automatic victory, only the potential for automatic victory. An epic spellcaster lobbing around Hellballs isn't going to win everything very fast.

[Urpriest]

The best way to describe the cheese tolerance is this. What cheese the caster uses should be "reasonable" enough such that, if as a first offense, the DM won't explicitly mind; however, as a second offense, the DM will be forced to speak up.

The level 30 wizard we'll say has an intelligence of 24.

It'd probably be preferable if everything was limited to things I could find online.

Why not just use Elminister's stats? I believe he's statted out in the ELH. And we'll assume he prepares a relatively unoptimized set of spells: perhaps not only blasting, but lots of thematic but underpowered stuff.

Edit: Also, he appears to be immune to Time Stop, which is dumb and impossible, IIRC.

[Big Fau]

Does Elminster "Level 30 Wizard" dude have Epic Magic? if so, you lose. period.

Elminster has a horrible build (Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5), but a single instance of Improved Spell Capacity (and a Spellcraft of a meager +40). Seriously, what 35th level character has a Con and Int score under 30?

[Caliphbubba]

Elminster has a horrible build (Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5), but a single instance of Improved Spell Capacity (and a Spellcraft of a meager +40). Seriously, what 35th level character has a Con and Int score under 30?

nevermind then. he is toast. only plot armor can save him

[Big Fau]

nevermind then. he is toast. only plot armor can save him

And he has that in spades...

[Zale]

Yeah, he's doomed.

Think the reason is an optimized wizard breaks the game in ways that it was never intended to be broken.

[Big Fau]

Oh, and for reference:

magic missile, detect thoughts, fireball, Evard’s black tentacles, feeblemind, finger of death, sunburst, temporal stasis.

His immunities are laughable. Temporal Stasis != Time Stop, and who specifically chooses immunity to Detect Thoughts when you can cast Mind Blank 4/day? And his SLAs are garbage (only Greater Teleport and True Seeing matter).

[Urpriest]

Oh, and for reference:
His immunities are laughable. Temporal Stasis != Time Stop, and who specifically chooses immunity to Detect Thoughts when you can cast Mind Blank 4/day? And his SLAs are garbage (only Greater Teleport and True Seeing matter).

The 3.5 update switches Temporal Stasis for Time Stop. And what about his Shapechange SLA?

[faceroll]

Does Elminster "Level 30 Wizard" dude have Epic Magic? if so, you lose. period.

People say "epic magic" like it's this super cool thing, but for the most part, epic magic is really, really, really, really bad. It requires an extraordinary amount of optimization to make it as super cool as people think it does, and that requires chain gating and mind raping solars.

[Jack_Simth]

People say "epic magic" like it's this super cool thing, but for the most part, epic magic is really, really, really, really bad. It requires an extraordinary amount of optimization to make it as super cool as people think it does, and that requires chain gating and mind raping solars.
You can avoid the chain-gating and the Mind-raping if you don't mind spending a bit more time at things.

[Big Fau]

The 3.5 update switches Temporal Stasis for Time Stop. And what about his Shapechange SLA?

Largely irrelevant, as a normal Wizard can get any form he gets with CL boosters (something he does not have, seeing as he spent his WBL on a ****ing pipe and a +5 Thundering Longsword, amongst other garbage items).

I'm almost certain those 4 BBBs in his statsheet contain no relevant spells.

[faceroll]

Largely irrelevant, as a normal Wizard can get any form he gets with CL boosters (something he does not have, seeing as he spent his WBL on a ****ing pipe and a +5 Thundering Longsword, amongst other garbage items).

I'm almost certain those 4 BBBs in his statsheet contain no relevant spells.

Eliminster doesn't have WBL, silly, he has plot. Note in his stat block that he can get access to any magic item he wants.

[Big Fau]

Eliminster doesn't have WBL, silly, he has plot. Note in his stat block that he can get access to any magic item he wants.

Then why the update didn't shift his levels over to Artificer is beyond me (other than print dates).

[Kantolin]

(Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5), but a single instance of Improved Spell Capacity (and a Spellcraft of a meager +40)

That's... that's still a '29th level wizard' with slightly higher base attack bonus and hit points, though. I mean yes, that build could be improved upon with more wizard, but that's like saying a Wizard 29 / Soulknife 6 is weak. :P

[Big Fau]

That's... that's still a '29th level wizard' with slightly higher base attack bonus and hit points, though. I mean yes, that build could be improved upon with more wizard, but that's like saying a Wizard 29 / Soulknife 6 is weak. :P

He's listed as a CR 39 (preupdate). I sincerely doubt his build (with no Epic spellcasting to speak of aside from a single 10th level slot and a horrible Spellcraft bonus) would be able to stand up to an optimized Transmuter 20 build (assuming Transmuter 20 != Wizard 20).


And who puts 24 levels into a base class with no actual class features beyond spellcasting? Or dips Fighter, picks up a weapon, and doesn't take Gish levels? or dips Cleric for 3 levels, then doesn't take Mystic Theurge? Or dips Rogue 2, but doesn't take Arcane Trickster? I mean what's the point of dipping those classes when they lose relevance 7 levels later because you don't pay attention to how things work? What good does 2nd level Cleric spells do an Epic-level character when he's got a Caster Level of 3?

Granted most of those were before Elminster's time, but I'm having a very hard time believing that this character was able to survive to 35th level, even with the DXMs that he's associated with.


The idea that these NPCs are the major faces of FR is one of the reasons I loathe the setting: They have no logic behind their builds, and they are almost 90% Mary Sue.

[Psyren]

The idea that these NPCs are the major faces of FR is one of the reasons I loathe the setting: They have no logic behind their builds, and they are almost 90% Mary Sue.

There's some logic. He started off as a shepherd, then a waif, then a mercenary and some other things before Mystra spotted dat ass and invited him into the back room of the temple or whatever. Hence the random other classes at the start of his build.

The Stu/Sue-ism, I agree with But I respect Cadderly; we have him to thank for the Cloistered Cleric after all.

[pegase]

On a completely unrelated note, if you were DMing a game, would you accept that lesser wish would allow a character to automatically succeed on his/her next skill check?

[Zale]

Er..

Just because every single character is not utterly optimized to be as uber-powerful as possible doesn't make said character illogical.

It's not like he needs to be optimized. He's got plot power behind him. :smallsmile:

[faceroll]

Then why the update didn't shift his levels over to Artificer is beyond me (other than print dates).

I'm pretty sure the statblocks on most important NPCs in most books have "Given time, so-and-so can have access to virtually any item he needs."

AFB, so check it for me.

[erikun]

Perhaps a better question:

Would our "unoptimized" Wizard 24/Archmage 5 with an optimal spell/item selection be beaten by a 20th level wizard with optimal choices of prestige classes? Because the questions of "how this character was able to survive to 35th level" seem rather amusing.

[Pyro_Azer]

Then why the update didn't shift his levels over to Artificer is beyond me (other than print dates).

Possibly because Elminster is a NPC from Faerun and Artificer is a class from Ebberon?

[Big Fau]

Perhaps a better question:

Would our "unoptimized" Wizard 24/Archmage 5 with an optimal spell/item selection be beaten by a 20th level wizard with optimal choices of prestige classes? Because the questions of "how this character was able to survive to 35th level" seem rather amusing.

If his (Elminster's) spell selection were optimized? There's nothing short of Craft Contingent Spell cheese that can save the Level 20 Wizard.

Spell selection is the key. Elminster doesn't strike me as the kind of character who selected Sleep, Color Spray, and Grease for his 1st level spell slots. The fact that he even has Shapechange as an Archmage SLA seems like a stroke of luck on the developer's part (seeing as he was created way back when the FR fluff first started getting printed, way before CharOps would have been aware of Shapechange).

And, to reiterate a phrase I once heard: An Epic Level Character without Epic Spellcasting is either WotC's work or a Noncaster. Elminster, with proper spell selection, would have cast multiple Simulacrums to start mitigating Epic Spells into his range of possible spell selections, which means he'd be literally unbeatable by anything other than PlotHax.


Possibly because Elminster is a NPC from Faerun and Artificer is a class from Ebberon?

Artificers are not campaign-specific last I checked, despite being introduced in Eberron (and IIRC, at least one Infusion has been specifically printed in an FR splat).

[Alleran]

Check the Boccob's Blessed Books he has. Those should be more than enough for him to have access to whatever spell he needs in the 0-9 range.

However, Elminster is laughably unoptimised. The biggest problem with him isn't just him (though he is a decent threat in his own right, albeit not to a character of similar level), it's all his flunkies. He can call in favours from at least eight or nine other epic-level wizards (if not many more), one of whom does have Epic Spellcasting, dozens and dozens of Harpers, and at least two gods.

He could cast a Gate spell and call Mystra herself through it. And she'd come, too. At which point, the 20th level wizard is screwed. Hell, a 60th level wizard would be screwed. Deny Weave = no spellcasting for you.

If I were going to fix his build, though, I'd go for something like:

Fighter 1 / Rogue 2 / Cleric 3 / Wizard 4 / Mystic Theurge 12 / Archmage 5 / Arcane Lord 8

And, of course, the +4 CR that comes with the Chosen of Mystra template (which isn't actually all that good at epic levels - you could probably limit it to +2 or +3 CR without much trouble, and I don't even know if it's worth +4 CR at pre-epic). The end result comes out at 15th level Cleric casting, 29th level Wizard casting (using one of his feat slots on Practised Spellcaster: Wizard bumps that up to caster level 33, plus Spell Power for CL 34 if you pick that particular High Arcana, and any wizard worth his salt carries around at least one Ring of Arcane Might or Orange Ioun Stone for another +1 CL for a CL 35 total). Not only does it avoid some of the "dead levels" that Cleric would otherwise be providing, the cleric list itself is quite useful for self-buffing without impinging on his ability to memorise enough arcane magic to break Faerun in half. Giving him Epic Spellcasting as well helps power him up further, provided that rules for it aren't abused relentlessly (which it's hard not to do, I know...).

Anyway, that adjusted Elminster build makes him more potent, and brings him close to Telamont Tanthul (who, with his "Wizard 20 / Shadow Adept 10 / Netherese Arcanist 5" build - even though they don't give him an actual statblock - is one of the stronger casters in the game unless you go out of your way to make it worthless) in power. Which is where I think he should be, personally.

[Flame of Anor]

The idea that these NPCs are the major faces of FR is one of the reasons I loathe the setting: They have no logic behind their builds, and they are almost 90% Mary Sue.

Aww...but I like Drizzt and Bruenor and Cadderly. :smallfrown:

(Also Harkle and those pirate hunter guys, but I don't think they count as major faces of FR.)

[Alleran]

Aww...but I like Drizzt and Bruenor and Cadderly. :smallfrown:

(Also Harkle and those pirate hunter guys, but I don't think they count as major faces of FR.)
They're support characters at best. One of the irritating things about the setting is that WotC refuses to publish novels or the like that don't just involve a very small subset of the characters in the setting, though. It's a damn shame.

[Zale]

Aww...but I like Drizzt and Bruenor and Cadderly. :smallfrown:

(Also Harkle and those pirate hunter guys, but I don't think they count as major faces of FR.)

Oh the Harpells. The most unintentionally dangerous wizards to ever grace the universe.

[Killer Angel]

The 3.5 update switches Temporal Stasis for Time Stop. And what about his Shapechange SLA?

Unless Elminster's build is used by an optimizer, I'm pretty sure that he'll shapechange in something suboptimal, like the rest of its build and spells' selection.

[pegase]

Well, suboptimal shapechange != dumb shapechange. We only call it suboptimal because we thought of something gimmicky that WoTC didn't. However, if abiding by common sense and removing all these gimmicks, as WoTC intended, we could interpret Elminster's suboptimal shapechange into an adult dragon as a "smart" shapechange, since dragons are known for combat prowess in-canon.

But I digress, since this topic is mostly focused on gimmicks.

[Sporge]

Now hold on here, when you start spellcasting at such high levels, both ends really end up just a likely to win. Is he suboptimal, yes, but really like much of epic level casting much of it comes down to luck.

All this dissing of Elminster left a sour taste in my mouth. I mean really does story not count for anything to some of you? Why is it that some munchkins can't see how wotc can choose some of his gear and abilities to represent his personality? I try to do that with my characters all the time, because it adds fun to what is a game. Where's the fun in being an untouchable immortal? Don't dis a pipe that lets you ddoor a bunch a day among other things. gimmicky and not all that useful sure, but it still has some use and in the mean time the man loves his smoking.

heck my latest build is a war wild mage fate spinner, but damn am I having a blast with it. I plan to planar travel via prismatic wall as both my exit of the campaign and entrance to an epic level one my dm is going to run after this one. It just seems an awesome plot tool to me :-p

Point is as much power as you can gain through optimized builds, actually having character is normally a better experience for everyone at the table. not to mention the fact that really any character can get really lucky sometimes, and or unlucky sometimes when left to the random number generators to decide, when you deal with a character having story backing things up though, that's when you realize you walked right into an elaborate trap.

[Big Fau]

Now hold on here, when you start spellcasting at such high levels, both ends really end up just a likely to win. Is he suboptimal, yes, but really like much of epic level casting much of it comes down to luck.

All this dissing of Elminster left a sour taste in my mouth. I mean really does story not count for anything to some of you? Why is it that some munchkins can't see how wotc can choose some of his gear and abilities to represent his personality? I try to do that with my characters all the time, because it adds fun to what is a game. Where's the fun in being an untouchable immortal? Don't dis a pipe that lets you ddoor a bunch a day among other things. gimmicky and not all that useful sure, but it still has some use and in the mean time the man loves his smoking.

heck my latest build is a war wild mage fate spinner, but damn am I having a blast with it. I plan to planar travel via prismatic wall as both my exit of the campaign and entrance to an epic level one my dm is going to run after this one. It just seems an awesome plot tool to me :-p

Point is as much power as you can gain through optimized builds, actually having character is normally a better experience for everyone at the table. not to mention the fact that really any character can get really lucky sometimes, and or unlucky sometimes when left to the random number generators to decide, when you deal with a character having story backing things up though, that's when you realize you walked right into an elaborate trap.

Sub-optimal characters simply do not stand a chance against an optimized build. Fluff and story be damned, Elminster would not be capable of fighting a Shadowcraft Mage, Incanatrix, or Iot7FV. He'd be dead on his own turn.

[Alleran]

Sub-optimal characters simply do not stand a chance against an optimized build. Fluff and story be damned, Elminster would not be capable of fighting a Shadowcraft Mage, Incanatrix, or Iot7FV. He'd be dead on his own turn.
Moment of Prescience (for Initiative) + Celerity (since the other guy will undoubtedly try it) + Gate (Call Unique Being: Mystra).

Rocket tag lasts only as long as it takes for somebody to pull out the biggest gun they've got and get a shot off.

[NNescio]

Now hold on here, when you start spellcasting at such high levels, both ends really end up just a likely to win. Is he suboptimal, yes, but really like much of epic level casting much of it comes down to luck.

All this dissing of Elminster left a sour taste in my mouth. I mean really does story not count for anything to some of you? Why is it that some munchkins can't see how wotc can choose some of his gear and abilities to represent his personality? I try to do that with my characters all the time, because it adds fun to what is a game. Where's the fun in being an untouchable immortal? Don't dis a pipe that lets you ddoor a bunch a day among other things. gimmicky and not all that useful sure, but it still has some use and in the mean time the man loves his smoking.

heck my latest build is a war wild mage fate spinner, but damn am I having a blast with it. I plan to planar travel via prismatic wall as both my exit of the campaign and entrance to an epic level one my dm is going to run after this one. It just seems an awesome plot tool to me :-p

Point is as much power as you can gain through optimized builds, actually having character is normally a better experience for everyone at the table. not to mention the fact that really any character can get really lucky sometimes, and or unlucky sometimes when left to the random number generators to decide, when you deal with a character having story backing things up though, that's when you realize you walked right into an elaborate trap.

It's mostly because he's a rather transparent Mary Sue. Of the God Mode (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodModeSue) variety, and he turns out not to be that "God Mode" after all.

There's a reason why he's known as the "munchkin to end all munchkins". As it turns out though, he (or whoever statted him out) has very poor system knowledge ('though to be fair, some of the poorer choices are holdovers from earlier editions).

[Big Fau]

Moment of Prescience (for Initiative) + Celerity (since the other guy will undoubtedly try it) + Gate (Call Unique Being: Mystra).

Rocket tag lasts only as long as it takes for somebody to pull out the biggest gun they've got and get a shot off.

You assume Elminster has MoP and Celerity. The Gate thing I'd give him, but that trick was designed long after he was stated out, and they've never modified him beyond the 3.5 update.

I reiterate: He's underpar for a 29th level Wizard, or a CR 39.

[PersonMan]

All this dissing of Elminster left a sour taste in my mouth. I mean really does story not count for anything to some of you? Why is it that some munchkins can't see how wotc can choose some of his gear and abilities to represent his personality? I try to do that with my characters all the time, because it adds fun to what is a game. Where's the fun in being an untouchable immortal? Don't dis a pipe that lets you ddoor a bunch a day among other things. gimmicky and not all that useful sure, but it still has some use and in the mean time the man loves his smoking.

Point is as much power as you can gain through optimized builds, actually having character is normally a better experience for everyone at the table. not to mention the fact that really any character can get really lucky sometimes, and or unlucky sometimes when left to the random number generators to decide, when you deal with a character having story backing things up though, that's when you realize you walked right into an elaborate trap.

I don't really know who the Elminster is, but from what I've read it seems like the problem is that he's, supposedly, incredibly powerful...but doesn't actually have anywhere nearly as much power as he's said to have. As for choosing abilities that fit the character, there are a lot of options. If you, say, have a mage you envision as being a bit tougher than other mages, it's like the difference between taking Toughness and Improved Toughness-they both fit your concept, but one is just flat-out better(at level 4 and above).

Also, optimizing a character does not mean that they're a bad character(or not one at all). In my opinion, it actually makes for better characters because you don't have to go through the "wait, this guy can barely contribute to a fight...how the heck did he survive to get to level X?" phase if the character doesn't perform adequately.

[Alleran]

You assume Elminster has MoP and Celerity. The Gate thing I'd give him, but that trick was designed long after he was stated out, and they've never modified him beyond the 3.5 update.

I reiterate: He's underpar for a 29th level Wizard, or a CR 39.
I'm well aware of how unoptimised he is, and pointed that out myself in previous posts.

However, given that just his common equipment includes four Blessed Books (which can easily contain hundreds of spells), I don't think it's at all unreasonable to presume that he would know the three spells in question. To say nothing of what happens if he's allowed time to prepare and review the rest of the spell library he undoubtedly has stashed either in his tower or in his Safehold.

Now, if we were talking spells that are specific to Eberron or the like (and he even has an excuse to know spells from Greyhawk or Krynn as a result of the Wizards Three articles), then I'd be a bit more wary of saying "he knows them" and being done with it. But we're not talking about Eberron-specific material.