New to 4.0... Need general tips/suggestions!

[busterswd]

My friend has announced to me he is running a 4.0 group, and has invited me. I've never touched 4.0 before and have essentially no idea how it works; have a good deal of experience with 3.0 and 3.5, and learned the basics of AD&D from Baldur's Gate, but yeah. Now it's crunch time. Any resources I should be looking at? If I'm starting from scratch, what do I need to get? Any really horrible pitfalls I should be avoiding (ie: fighter going greater weapon spec in an optimized group, etc.)?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

[Eldest]

It is very, very hard to mess up a build in 4e, they made it for balance. Just play one of the simpler classes (fighter is actualy a good choice) to get used to it, and play as part of the group. So if you're a defender, defend, striker, strike, etc.
Now that I think about it this probably wasn't what you were asking for, though.

[Fox Box Socks]

The biggest hurdle to get over is the concept of "powers".

A power is a trick you're character is capable of, whether it be a type of attack, a spell, what have you. Powers are divided into three categories: at-will, encounter, daily. At-wills you can use as often as you like. Encounters recharge after a short rest (read: five minutes of sitting around doing nothing, so they're probably going to be used once per fight). Daily powers recharge after an extended rest (read: 6 hours, so they're good once per day).

Here is the point of contention: all classes gain powers at the same rate. A 9th level Wizard will have two at-wills, three encounters, and three dailies, which is the exact same number of powers a 9th level Fighter will have. While at a first glance this may seem like all classes are the same, differing class features and the sheer diversity of the powers themselves means that different classes play very, very differently.

Classes themselves are divided into roles: defender, striker, leader, controller. Individual classes themselves are necessary as much as roles are: while a party can survive without a Cleric, it will have a much harder time surviving without a leader.

The first Player's Hand Book is so riddled with errata at this point that I can't really suggest picking it up. Heroes of the Fallen Lands should provide you with a number of simple, introductory classes like the Mage and the Knight that are very good for people new to the system.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

[Vknight]

Well first figure out what each other player is bringing to the group as any edition.

Lets say your the 6th person to the group.
Now the others have decided on the following
A Defender, A Striker, 2Leaders, and a Controller.

Now no matter what one roll will be filled twice don't pick that. (Note using above example with you as the sixth player)
If striker of controller are open area I'd suggest one of those the added damage or ability to pin enemies is greatly appreciated.
Now figure out what other want and discuss if other people have already finished there characters build around that.
Not all of any class just why or why not. Also did not include psionics or dragon

As a Controller
Invoker- Hit enemies in bursts, blasts, or multi target abilites all with special effects.

Druid- Keep enemies moving or stall them as a guardian. Hit hard as a predator with secondary effects. Create zones as a swarm

Wizard- Blasts to hit groups and take out minions. Summons keep enemies busy and give you a second attack generally. Illusions hit the weakest defense on almost any enemy

Seeker- Archer Seeker, why? You win more powers and feats for them and they get the 'wintertouched' combo in paragon tier without a frost weapon.
Did I mention they get an encounter like elven accuracy which recharges so as an elf they hurt

As a Leader
Bard- Extra healing between encounters and great with skill challenges. Brings either benefits to the party via bonuses and can be a secondary tank. Be an archer gives rerolls and provides benefits on hits. Cunning bards cause side effects hitting an enemy and giving them a mark which is applied to a ally

Artificer- Good healing and can be ranged or melee. Several temp hp powers and provides defense buffs

Cleric- You are a god of healing go pacifist healear feat. Your allies at lvl1 regain (Healing Surge+2d6+Cha Mod) that is good I mean really good, especailly since your Charisma should be 14.

Warlord- Gives bonus attacks shifts is more about battlefield advantage good to combo off other leaders

Shaman- Good healing gives a spirit which acts as a wall, scout, and weapon. Has tactic options along with better healing then the warlord still no cleric

As a Defender
Fighter- You mark any enemies you attack hit or miss. You can have bursts and multi attacks to get groups marked. They have high attack bonus and there mark hurts. two handed for damage, sword and board for walling, brawler to keep a target pinned, two weapon to spread the love.

Paladin- Divine challenge works at range but you have to waste a minor and attack the next turn or it goes away.

Warden- Only mark those adjacent but marks all of them, more saves, huge hp, alternate forms. Really nasty and can slow enemies down with there tanking

Swordmage- Mark at range then bring the enemy to you or go to him or just make his attack hurt less. As a swordmage you fight one guy well your mark target is stuck fighting others and taking the effects


As a Striker
Rouge- 2d6 before feats with CA. Go brutal scoundrel for more damage on that. Melee builds combined with riposte strike gives more attacks and works great with the defender. Also plenty of feats to get a rouge with a longsword or axe etc

Ranger- Archer build.. Thats about it seriously thats it there nasty nothing more needs ack......

Sorcerer- Blasts, bursts, and ranged powers. You focus on getting groups to take damage and lots of it by adding your dex or str mods to it.

Warlock- Keep applying your curse adding it up and let the effect keep activating because that your power dealing extra damage to a target well also benefitting when it drops.

Barbarian- Meet the death dealer. Bugbear + Execution Axe proficiency. Your at-wills deal 2d6(brutal2You reroll damage that is 2or below on the dice
Heck even without that your going to bring the hurt to enemies sadly your going to suck defensively

Monk- Hit someone hard then flurry him for more or flurry a different target to cause additional effects. Several feats which increase flurry damage range. Your going to be giving love and there going to take it

[Hidden Sanity]

From a mechanical starting point, It's generally strongly reccomended that you end up with a fairly high 'attack stat'(Str for fighters, Dex for rogues, Cha for bards, ect) a lot of people suggest 18 after racials, and very few people will argue that anything lower than a 16 is a good thing in the vast majority of cases(exceptions are things like the Lazylord, who never makes attacks).

Major Pitfalls:
-Ruthless Ruffian Rogue, (Chooseable rogue feature).. take brutal scoundral instead.
-Ensnaring swordmage,
Assault and Sheilding swordmages are far better with the exception of a few specific corrner cases(ensnaring swordmage Hybriding to get dire radiance, for example.)
-Beast ranger attack powers after heroic.
Beastmasters beasts have weak scaling, the beast is still useful for an bow ranger as a meatsheild and a Quarry beacon(And a tactical peice to help clog up the front line) But your beast companion stops being a useful source of damage the more the game progressess, retrain any beast attacks as you level.
-Binder class, Vampire class, Shade race.... they can work if you really like the flavour or feel... but they're weak options.

Besides that, just about anything can work well, although bear in mind that the runepriest and seeker classes are a little undersupported(The seeker notably has a few weak levels for power selection) until WotC gets around to releasing content for these otherwise solid classes. There's a few feats and powers here and there that are just plain old-fashioned bad, but you'll need to learn to pick those out on their own.

[Kurald Galain]

Any resources I should be looking at? If I'm starting from scratch, what do I need to get?
The PHB1. Do not assume that any rule from 3E is still in effect in 4E.


Any really horrible pitfalls I should be avoiding (ie: fighter going greater weapon spec in an optimized group, etc.)?
One common mistake is attempting to use the wrong class for the job. For example, suppose you want to play a dual wielding thief? A common complaint about 4E is that this isn't really possible within the rogue class: but this misses the point that it is entirely possible within the ranger class. Just grab Stealth and Thievery and call yourself a thief, and you can dual wield all you like.

Another common mistake is trying to balance all of your defenses. If you look at it mathematically, then a character with defenses 16/16/16 is going to get hit exactly as often as a character who has 12/18/18 - but the latter is going to be better at attacks, damage, and his primary skills. What I'm saying is that it's not a problem to have one "low" defense. I recommend the so-called specialist array for almost all characters, i.e. 18, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8 before racial bonuses.

The third common mistake is trying to put a lot of effort into a marginal bonus. Yes, getting a +1 is nice, but ultimately it's not that big a deal to not get a +1. In other words, especially during combat, doing 20 damage now is better than thinking for a minute and then doing 23 damage. Related: some people will argue that picking a race that doesn't boost your class's primary attribute is not worth playing. These people are vastly exaggerating.

Finally, there are a few options that are traps. Common examples include the Str-based cleric, the fighter power Sure Strike, the paladin if using only the PHB1, and the wizard feat Expanded Spellbook.

HTH!

[Sipex]

I'll go a route no one has touched yet. The major slip ups when going from 3/3.5 to 4e.

1) AoO are now called OAs (Opportunity Attacks). OAs are ONLY provoked in two situations.
- The target leaves a threatened square without shifting (5 foot step).
- The target uses a Range or Area attack while within threatened range.

NOTHING else provokes OAs. Standing, using potions, etc etc etc. NOTHING.

2) 5 foot step is now called 'shifting' and is the same idea when you do it. You move 1 square (5 feet) and don't provoke OAs when doing so. Powers and the like can allow you to shift several squares giving you more movement which does not provoke OAs.

3) Each turn of yours is separated into THREE basic actions.
STANDARD ACTION - Use this to attack usually, the PHB explains what else you can do with it. Can be traded down for an additional MOVE or MINOR action.
MOVE ACTION - Use this to move your speed (usually 6 squares, check your race), shift 1 square or stand up from prone.
MINOR ACTION - Use this to do many minor things. Draw items (and weapons), reload certain bows, drink potions and use minor powers.

[Sipex]

More tips I forgot.

4) FORT/REF/WILL are no longer saves which you roll but instead called Natural Defenses and function a lot like AC (ie: You have a static number you increase with racial, feat and item bonuses)

5) Saving Throw now refers to the simple action of just rolling a D20. Roll a D20 and score a 10 or higher and that usually means you saved (unless the effect specifically states it needs an X to save).

[Doug Lampert]

I'll go a route no one has touched yet. The major slip ups when going from 3/3.5 to 4e.

1) AoO are now called OAs (Opportunity Attacks). OAs are ONLY provoked in two situations.
- The target leaves a threatened square without shifting (5 foot step).
- The target uses a Range or Area attack while within threatened range.


This is wrong in that it misses that you don't get OAs at reach, you get them against adjacent foes:

Moving Provokes: If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide.

Ranged and Area Powers Provoke: If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy.

One per Combatant’s Turn: You can take only one opportunity action during another combatant’s turn, but you can take any number during a round.

Able to Attack: You can’t make an opportunity attack unless you are able to make a melee basic attack and you can see your enemy.

Also notice that you get one for EVERY opponent's turn. If 57 minions try to run past you, you may well kill 54 of them in a single round.

This is why Kurald Galain said:

The PHB1. Do not assume that any rule from 3E is still in effect in 4E.

There are lots of changes.

The basic changes are easy to remember, everyone has powers, everyone has three actions every turn, full round actions are dead. But there's lots of small stuff too. One of the Heroe's of the <whatever> books or the PHB1 are intended to introduce the system. You want one of those. You do not know this system.

DougL

[tcrudisi]

This is wrong in that it misses that you don't get OAs at reach, you get them against adjacent foes:

Sipex was correct. While you (the player) will rarely get to threaten more than adjacent squares (it is possible to do), some monsters can treat threatened squares as more than 1 square away. It tends to be larger creatures and most larger creatures can do it, but not all.

[Eldest]

However, that needs reach and threatening reach, specifically. Generaly, you only threaten squares right next to you.

[Sinon]

As mentioned, the important thing is that you can’t go with any assumptions about how rules work based on your knowledge of earlier editions. A rule might have the same name as a 3rd edition rule, but work very, very differently is 4th.

Other than that, it isn’t rocket science. If you managed to learn 3rd edition, you’ll be able to grasp most of 4th’s mechanics within a session.

Pick a class/race that you liked in 3rd a take it out for a spin.

[chaotoroboto]

One common mistake is attempting to use the wrong class for the job. For example, suppose you want to play a dual wielding thief? A common complaint about 4E is that this isn't really possible within the rogue class: but this misses the point that it is entirely possible within the ranger class. Just grab Stealth and Thievery and call yourself a thief, and you can dual wield all you like.

+1

I'd say this is the single biggest thing that 3.5 gamers have trouble accepting about 4E - in 4E Class =/= Profession. All a 4E class is is the mechanics of how you engage in combat, and which skill checks you can pass.

To expand on Kurald's point, you can play a good thief with all of the following classes:
- Ranger
- Warlock
- Swordmage
- Assassin
- Hexblade
- Rogue
- Monk
- Vampire

I you're willing to burn a feat or two, or use a race with some thievery built in, you can expand this to every class in the game by level 4.

On the flipside, each of these classes is going to play completely different in combat - so when considering what kind of class to use, look at how they fight and whether that style of fighting sounds fun to you, then tweak it to match a character that sound fun to pretend to be.

As for what you need to get? I'd buy a copy of the PHB 1 as a must. Then, with any spare cash I wanted to spend on DnD, I'd get a 1-month sub to DDI for the Character Builder, and a good-looking mini. Bring your PHB to the game and look up rules as they come up in play. There's too many rules to learn them all at once, and most of the time they don't matter until someone tries to use them. I'd strongly recommend bookmarking the page for conditions, however.

[Hidden Sanity]

+1
To expand on Kurald's point, you can play a good thief with all of the following classes:
- Ranger
- Warlock
- Swordmage
- Assassin
- Hexblade
- Rogue
- Monk
- Vampire

You forgot bard :P But then Bards make decent just about anything.

[busterswd]

Thanks for the feedback. Will probably be playing a controller with a secondary focus on DPS. Have just gotten my grimy mitts on the PHB, so time to start reading!

Yeah, really leaning towards Wizard and quibbling on race; how important are the bonus human traits this time around vs. the extra stats eladrin provide?

[gurban]

Well that is a debate for the ages. First off, either would make a fine wizard. 4e is good like that. Any x race can be a fine y class, but some line up a little better. Eladrin Wizard is one of these cases. However, there are two things to consider that aren't in the PHB, as they are more recent rule changes. Eladrin get +2 to INT and a +2 to DEX or CHA. Humans now aren't stuck with third at will power. They can have the third at-will or Heroic Effort, which many consider to be the best racial power in the game. Once per encounter, they can add a +4 to any d20 roll, and they can do it after the fact.

[MeeposFire]

I would take human as a wizard. That extra feat can be used to take leather armor, expertise feats (assuming you have access to those), superior implements, implement focus, or some other awesome feat.

If I was playing and I just had the PHB only I would probably go leather armor proficiency and a feat of choice (if you want you could even do toughness its not bad in a PHB only game).

Do you only have access to the PHB?

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah, really leaning towards Wizard and quibbling on race; how important are the bonus human traits this time around vs. the extra stats eladrin provide?
Particularly, Fey Step will be useful in almost every single encounter for your entire adventuring career; whereas a third at-will is unlikely to see much play after you hit level 3 or so. This is because Fey Step (and most other racial powers) can be used in addition to all your other attacks, whereas the third at-will is used instead of another attack, and is most likely the weakest attack on your list.

Likewise: at level 1, having two feats instead of one is nice. Once you get to level 4 or thereabouts, having 4 feats intead of 3 is not that big a deal. (edit) and, if you only use the PHB, then there aren't many good heroic feats for a wizard anyway.

So at very low level, human is good, but they get overtaken quickly. Heroic Effort is powerful, but note that a wizard can do the same with Wand of Accuracy. Don't underestimate the versatility of teleporting yourself (e.g. it gets you out of grabs, onto rooftops, and across chasms; plus it's very stylish for a wiz).

[TheEmerged]

Late to the party and some of this has been said, so consider any duplication the seconding of existing statements.

Needed to play: PHB1 and a good look at the online errata (the Stealth skill and the skill challenge rules have had significant changes). No really, the game is playable right there.

Strongly recommended: Rules Compendium, Monster Vault, and a DDI subscription. The DDI subscription in particular covers a LOT of territory.

Talking Points
1> Completely throw any impressions from 3.x out the window. You're better off learning from scratch than trying to learn what's changed.
2> Don't be too closely wed to the classes. The example previously stated about play a "thief" as a number of other classes is a good example of this (although I have to chime in that Bards do not get Stealth & Thievery as class skills, there is a known "Bard Thief" build).
3> Be sure to look into the Background rules (PHB2 or the new character generator). In practice, what these mean is that characters choose between a +2 bonus to a particular skill or having any skill as one of their chosen skills. This is the answer to the complaint some people had about how they couldn't play a fighter that studied religion without burning a feat.
4> On that note... feats aren't quite as intensive as they were before. They've done a better job of keeping feats from being essentially required. Notice I said 'better' job not a 'good' job, but it has improved. There's usually at least one feat for your build you're essentially required to take.
5> One thing they have done a good job of is keeping the "crunch" and "fluff" element seperate. You're perfectly free to say your character was a farm boy without having to put resources that could have gone into combat capability instead, as an (oversimplified) example.
6> One thing they didn't do a good job of early on was the skill challenge mechanic. They've improved quite a bit since PHB1, but they still take a bit of practice to get right. Here's what I've found, your mileage may vary and all that.
6a> They work better in "branching" scenarios or "stacking" scenarios than "pass/fail" scenarios. That is, they work better for determining which method characters use or how hard an upcoming encounter is than as a straight up "did this work or not". For example, one I ran before a major boss fight started with 10 minions. For every successful check, a minion was removed; for every failure, one was added. After 6 dice rolls, the fight began no matter what.
6b> No matter what people may tell you, don't let players get away with using a knowledge skill like History or Religion for everything. A lot of times, such a check should provide a bonus for a 'real' skill. For example, I may allow a character to take a Dungeoneering skill check to get a bonus to a Thievery check to disarm a trap but you're not disarming a trap with just a Dungeoneering roll.
6c> The most enjoyable skill challenge is the one the player's don't realize is a skill challenge. As DM I *never* use this term in play. I describe the obstacle ("A mob of angry drow are coming at you. A male drow appears to be egging the crowd into killing you.") and then have them make skill checks per their descriptions of their actions ("Wait, aren't male drow second-class citizens?" Roll Religion to confirm that.)

[busterswd]

Alright, pretty much finalized my char and will be having the first session this weekend.

Deva Wizard (Arcanist)

Str: 8
Con: 11
Dex: 10
Int: 20
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

Orb of Imposition

At Will: Beguiling Strands, Phantasmal Assault
Encounter: Grasping Shadows
Daily: Sleep, Flaming Sphere

Feat: Orb Expertise

Character builder let me pick two dailies: does that mean I have both per day, or that they're both in my spellbook and I can swap them out?

[Vknight]

One in the spellbook, you choose each day which one you wish to have available that day. There are some abilities which let you change in the middle of the day which you have.

I had a player thought he had both and freaked out when he was told otherwise

[busterswd]

One in the spellbook, you choose each day which one you wish to have available that day. There are some abilities which let you change in the middle of the day which you have.

I had a player thought he had both and freaked out when he was told otherwise

Ah, that makes sense.

Also, additional question: a LOT of my spells are psychic damage and target will. Potential problem?

[Hidden Sanity]

yes and no, you can build on a theme with that, Psychic lock(Paragon feat) and the like... but yeah, it won't be a problem a lot of the time, but something with a high will and psychic resist will come along eventually...of course, that's when you rely more on your allies to exploit his low AC or whatever.

[Kurald Galain]

Deva Wizard (Arcanist)
Looks good.

Well, except that I'd replace Phantasmal Assault by an area effect spell. Also, I would strongly recommend getting Enlarge Spell as soon as possible; it's pretty much the best feat wizards get.


Also, additional question: a LOT of my spells are psychic damage and target will. Potential problem?
Not a problem: psychic resistance is extremely rare. If it worries you, make your second at-will Freezing Burst, so that you have a backup (it targets reflex, and deals cold damage; problem solved).

[tbarrie]

+1

I'd say this is the single biggest thing that 3.5 gamers have trouble accepting about 4E - in 4E Class =/= Profession.

"character class is your chosen vocation, the specific trade you follow." - 4E PHB, p 15
"Your class represents your character's vocation" - Heroes of the Fallen Lands, p 33

Why wouldn't people have trouble accepting an interpretation that some people on the internet insist on, when the books flat out say it isn't true?

[MLH]

All "class doesn't equal profession" means is that if you pick Rogue as your class you pick "a lightly armored agile fighter who knows how to hit where it hurts, to hide and to handle locks and traps", not "an untrustworthy thief." If you're a Paladin you're not automatically a strict law-and-order type, if you're a Wizard you're not automatically from a magic academy, and so on. Your class is without question your character's vocation, i.e. it defines what they do, but it doesn't define what kind of person they are.

So many times I've seen people complain that you can't make an effective lightly armored Fighter that focuses on dealing damage over protecting allies and be positively stunned with disbelief when they hear that of course you can, it's called a Rogue or a Ranger.

[Kurald Galain]

Why wouldn't people have trouble accepting an interpretation that some people on the internet insist on, when the books flat out say it isn't true?

It wouldn't be the first time that the designers made an incorrect assumption about their own game :smallamused:

[TheAbstruseOne]

The biggest misunderstanding with 4e is the idea that it's solely combat-focused. While the rulebooks spend most of their page count with combat and most of the powers are combat-oriented, that's because the portion of the game that requires the most rules. It really all comes down to the playstyle of you and your group.

One thing I would highly suggest is look at the powers for your chosen class, think about your character concept, then throw out everything but the crunchy bits (attack bonus, damage, conditions, keywords, etc.) and re-write them from scratch to fit your character. Playing an Eladrin wizard? Ask yourself why an Eladrin (who favors swordplay with longswords as a tradition) have a spell that's a bunch of daggers? Why would a Shifter's Magic Missile be silver if they're decedents of werecreatures who abhor silver? Reskin any or all of the powers you take to make sure they properly fit the idea of your character. Just make sure to talk to your DM about it just to make sure you're not screwing up his world or doing something he doesn't approve of (especially if your DM is more experienced with 4e since he/she'll know what can be changed and what can't without changing the underlying rules).

Also, you may be tempted to head over to the WotC forums and the Character Optimization threads. IGNORE THEM. Otherwise, every single character you make will end up looking exactly the same, taking the same powers with the same attributes and same skills. You can get some good advice there if you can't figure out what feat/power/etc. to take, but spend too much time there and you'll end up with one of exactly 3-5 different characters for every single class.