Incantatrix

[SlashRunner]

I may seem like an idiot for asking this, but why is the Incantatrix lauded as being so broken? The only thing that seems really worthwhile in it to me is the metamagic reducer ability.

[Arundel]

Long story short, one of the potential interpretations of that ability allows it to reduce metamagic in such a way that it adds negative levels allowing for you to reduce a spell by applying low grade/no grade metamagic to it.

Someone will be along to explain properly.

[iDesu]

Long story short, one of the potential interpretations of that ability allows it to reduce metamagic in such a way that it adds negative levels allowing for you to reduce a spell by applying low grade/no grade metamagic to it.

Someone will be along to explain properly.

Actually that's Arcane Thesis, Incantatrix doesn't let the metamagic applications go under a +1 modifier.

Incantatrix is seen as overpowered because you can apply metamagics like persistent to spells for free without increasing the spell level. Sure, it requires a decently high spellcraft check, but that's not too hard to optimize.

[Big Fau]

IIRC, the highest DC you need to make for the Spellcraft check is around 50-ish, which is early trivial with a good sense of optimization. Which means free metamagic for the whole party, which gets out of hand really fast with stuff like Persistent Spell.

[SlashRunner]

Oh, I see. Using Metamagic Effect and uberboosting your Spellcraft, I presume.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I believe the highest Spellcraft check you need to make is 45 (18 + [3x9]).

Incantatrix gets you a few awesome abilities:
1) four metamagic abilities (the most for its level investment)
2) the ability to apply metamagic to lingering effects already in place (usually, this manifests itself in the form of extending or persisting something like Shapechange, or some ridiculous buff that is only tempered by its 1 rd/level time)
3) the ability to steal existing spell effects and buffs from another source (effectively allowing you to steal buffs you like from enemies)
4) the capstone ability allows you to reduce the metamagic cost of each metamagic feat by 1 (it's been noted before that it doesn't reduce the feat's spell level adjustment by less than +1, but you can still combine it with Arcane Thesis, which just makes the more broken, higher-cost metamagics even better; with Arcane Thesis and Incantatrix 10, Maximize is +1 SLA, and Twinned, Split Ray, Empowered, Maximized, Fell Drained Enervation can be made a 4th-level spell with Invisible Spell, Miser With Magic, City Spell, and others).

The thing I never quite got is how Incantatrix 10 and Arcane Thesis interacted with +2 metamagics, like Empower Spell and Split Ray. Incantatrix's capstone has a +1 limit, but Arcane Thesis does not; does this mean that you can regard the Incantatrix capstone as reducing the level to +1 and Arcane Thesis reducing it below that, or does either one happen, and then the other can't happen because it would reduce the level beyond +1? In other words, which takes precedent?

[Kylarra]

You apply modifiers in the most beneficial order, so apply incantatrix's first and then thesis.

[Jude_H]

It might be worth noting that it's the Player's Guide to Faerun version that normally sees the complaints. The earlier printing in Magic of Faerun is still a strong class, but its costs and benefits come much closer to even.

[Pyro_Azer]

I believe the highest Spellcraft check you need to make is 45 (18 + [3x9]).


Incorrect. There is nothing stopping you from having an effective level over nine. E.G. persistent shapechange would be 18+(3*15)=63.

[Endarire]

Actually, the highest Spellcraft DC you need to reach, assuming you can use Ocular Spell, Chain Spell, Persistent Spell, and Extend Spell on a spell is this:

18 base + 9 x3 (base spell level) + 12 x3 (additional spell slot levels with metamagic applied) = 81

Difficult but doable pre-level 15, especially if you can use guidance of the avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) and divine insight (Spell Compendium) from at-will items.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Incorrect. There is nothing stopping you from having an effective level over nine. E.G. persistent shapechange would be 18+(3*15)=63.

Erk... Yeah, I wasn't thinking about that at all. Silly me!

Another reason I forgot to list, then, that Incantatrix is a stupid good class; you can apply metamagics to spells that you couldn't otherwise (because the spell level adjustment pushes it into epic-level spellcasting).

[Eldariel]

A bunch of things, actually:
- Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Casting = 6+2xInt spells worth of free metamagic daily (e.g. Persistent)
- Improved Metamagic = Effectively at least 6-7 feats worth of benefit with the bonus feats and prerequisites (alternatively, Epic Feat on level 15), turbocharges all the ridiculous metamagic stacking on any offense or buffs.
- Instant Metamagic = some more random free metamagic.
- Metamagic Spell Trigger, Seize Concentration, Snatch Spell = These can actually have a few uses, and the higher the game's power level, the more like those are to come up. And Metamagic Spell Trigger does stupid stuff with all the Metamagic you know, though it's expensive. Still, if you somehow are stuck without spells and need to kill someone, you can relax knowing you can whip out a Wand and blast someone for 400 with a Searing Orb of Fire with 1 Standard Action.

Then you get bonus Metamagic Feats and stuff. The class is just too much, man. Either of the first two would be more or less worth a class by themselves. Hell, both Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic would be stupid good on a chassis with literally nothing else. It gets much more for much less than it should. And seriously, persisting 30ish spells daily for free? That's pretty good. You need quite a few Nightsticks to pull that off with DMM and DMM is pretty high up there in power too. And hell, the class's own abilities decrease the DC of applying said metamagic. Heh.

[JohnDaBarr]

ok just to add that Incantatrix is immune to death effects and energy drain, plus it can drain charges from magic items to gain life.

srsly its like your playing a wizard and you get more epic last 10 lvl of it

good optimized wizard is really powerful BUT with incantatrix its just, just.... a bit over the top.

btw....


The thing I never quite got is how Incantatrix 10 and Arcane Thesis interacted with +2 metamagics, like Empower Spell and Split Ray. Incantatrix's capstone has a +1 limit, but Arcane Thesis does not; does this mean that you can regard the Incantatrix capstone as reducing the level to +1 and Arcane Thesis reducing it below that, or does either one happen, and then the other can't happen because it would reduce the level beyond +1? In other words, which takes precedent?

In one campaign I used Split Ray (metamagic feat +2) and metamagic reducer Easy Metamagic (it reduces lvl adjustment by 1 but it cant go lower of +1, basically the same story) with Arcane Thesis and my DM ruled 0 lvl adjustment is OK.... but this is still highly controversial and still causes many debates.

[sreservoir]

ok just to add that Incantatrix is immune to death effects and energy drain, plus it can drain charges from magic items to gain life.

srsly its like your playing a wizard and you get more epic last 10 lvl of it

good optimized wizard is really powerful BUT with incantatrix its just, just.... a bit over the top.

that's the MoF one, which is powerful, but not terribly so.