Awakened Zombie Hydra - Breath and Head Regrowth?

[Talya]

Awaken Undead gives zombies back their (Ex) abilities. In the case of a Hydra, this would include Fast Healing.

The ability of a hydra to grow back heads is not typed anywhere in the creature entry, however? Does a zombie hydra even lose this ability? If they do, do they get it back when they are awakened and regain fast healing?

With Pyrohydras and cryohydras - their breath weapon is untyped. Do zombies keep it? Do awakened zombies regain it?

Lastly, a zombie has a cap of 20 hit dice, equal to a 10 headed zombie hydra. If a zombie hydra does grow back heads, do they cap at 10? (since an 11 or 12 headed hydra has 24 hit dice as a zombie, which is not legal for the template.)

[Coidzor]

Do hydras gain HD when they grow heads after having their old heads cut off? I didn't think they did, and that the new heads fell off if they exceeded the hydra's limit after a week.

[Talya]

Do hydras gain HD when they grow heads after having their old heads cut off? I didn't think they did, and that the new heads fell off if they exceeded the hydra's limit after a week.

Ah, you're right there. So the question is, does that whole ability work on a zombie hydra? What about their breath attacks (Which aren't typed...Not Su, Ex, nothing.)

[Coidzor]

Ah, you're right there. So the question is, does that whole ability work on a zombie hydra? What about their breath attacks (Which aren't typed...Not Su, Ex, nothing.)

Unfortunately I'm clueless as to the actual RAW of the situation or where to look to find any kind of clarification of the RAW or extra-RAW clarification from the creators.

I'm inclined to say that an Awakened cryo-or-pyro-hydra zombie would probably get the breath weapon back at least, just off of my gut instinct... The heads growing back thing seems a bit off to me for undead...

How does Awaken deal with things like the regeneration of a Troll zombie and re-attaching limbs and having them work? That seems like it might be the one of the better places to look for inspiration.

[Talya]

How does Awaken deal with things like the regeneration of a Troll zombie and re-attaching limbs and having them work? That seems like it might be the one of the better places to look for inspiration.

Being able to reattach limbs is a function of the troll's Regeneration (Ex) ability. A zombie troll would retain this ability once awakened.

[PollyOliver]

As for what types of abilities (from the special abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) page--


Breath weapons are supernatural abilities except where noted.

Assuming head regrowing is a function of a regeneration-like ability:

Creatures with this extraordinary ability recover from wounds quickly and can even regrow or reattach severed body parts.

But if you don't want to consider it regen, if it's untyped, you might also run into:

Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
Which is complicated by the fact that this is mostly referring to the abilities listed beneath it; there's no real word on how to handle completely untyped (in monster entry) abilities, though I'd say it makes sense that this applies.

So RAW they wouldn't get back the breath weapon (though I'd expect them to) and they might get back the head regrowth, depending on whether or not you consider it to be regen.

Edit: Though, if it's not regeneration and is instead a natural ability, the zombie might not lose it in the first place, since the template only specifies losing special abilities. So it looks like it probably keeps head regrowth one way or the other.

[Thurbane]

In the case of an Awakened Zombie Troll, I think the clause about not being able to have Regeneration without a CON score would kick in...

[Amphetryon]

In the case of an Awakened Zombie Troll, I think the clause about not being able to have Regeneration without a CON score would kick in...

In many (but not all) cases, Undead creatures use their CHA score to determine abilities previously set by CON.

[Fouredged Sword]

In this case it is declared specificly that you cannot have regeration without a con score. Cha can't be used to substitute it. It does not use Con to ditermine anything, but a lack of a con score means you can't have regneration.

I am not aware that fast healing has that restriction though.

[PollyOliver]

The hydra's head regrowth ability is not explicitly regeneration, though. I'd probably rule it that way, but it doesn't say it anywhere.

[Talya]

While Regeneration requires a con score, Hydras do not have regeneration. They have "Fast Healing." Fast Healing does not require a con score.

[WinWin]

hydra abilities are poorly detailed.

Awakening them should return all (ex) abilities lost by adding the Zombie template.

Scent and fast healing.

Regrowing heads is not defined as an (ex) ability. Neither are the breath weapons (they are not even defined as 'breath weapons', per se).

Should they regrow heads? Yeah, I think so, but I can't back that up with any rules.

[PollyOliver]

hydra abilities are poorly detailed.

Awakening them should return all (ex) abilities lost by adding the Zombie template.

Scent and fast healing.

Regrowing heads is not defined as an (ex) ability. Neither are the breath weapons (they are not even defined as 'breath weapons', per se).

Should they regrow heads? Yeah, I think so, but I can't back that up with any rules.

You can kind of back it up, ish, but it's slightly open to interpretation. Since the hydra head regrowth ability is not specified as regeneration, it's up to interpretation whether to call it regeneration, lump it under its fast healing ability (which does something completely different), or default to it being a "natural ability" because it is not specified as a special ability in the text or listed under the special abilities section of the table. I think the latter is probably the closest to RAW, but who knows?

If it's a natural ability, the zombie probably did not lose it in the first place. If it's fast healing, it lost it and got it back when awakened. If it's regen, it lost it when it lost it's CON score and doesn't get it back when awakened, because it still doesn't have a CON score and specific trumps general. I think the first is the most RAW, but even if not--2 of 3? I dunno.

However, it doesn't get back its breath weapon, because breath weapons are explicitly a supernatural ability unless otherwise specified. Since the hydra's entry doesn't specify it, it's Su. Zombies lose special qualities except those specified. Since it's Su and not Ex, it doesn't get it back.