Tips for a Warlock Necromancer

[Kefkafreak]

We're about to finish our campaign (something like 4 sessions left), so I need to start thinking up a new character.

The DM has said that the next campaign will be challenging and he expects some degree of optimization on our part (no cheese though).

The other players have already decided what they're going to play:

-Barbarian / Champion of Gwynharwyf - He'll tank and use Shield Other to protect the weakest members of the party.

-Incantatrix - I'll have to talk to him so we don't have any redundancies.

-Assassin - He'll assassinate stuff (?) I guess he'll abuse Sneak Attack.

-Monk (yeah)

I felt like playing a Warlock, so I figured an Eldritch Disciple would be the best way to do it, since there's no Cleric in the party. I'll be using the Hellfire Ur-lock build, with a Binder level and no Mindbender. I want a ranged Warlock, not a melee one.

I want this Warlock to be as focused on controlling Undead (permanently) as he can (I know there are better classes for a Necromancer, I don't care).

This is the preliminary build:

Race: Human
Alignment: LE

1 Warlock 1 Iron Will, Spell Focus(Evil)
2 Warlock 2
3 Warlock 3 Corpsecrafter
4 Warlock 4
5 Binder 1
6 Ur-Priest 1 Craft Wondrous Item
7 Ur-Priest 2
8 Eldritch Disciple 1
9 Eldritch Disciple 2 Nimble Bones
10 HFW 1
11 HFW 2
12 HFW 3 Deadly Chill
13 Eldritch Disciple 3
14 Eldritch Disciple 4
15 Eldritch Disciple 5 Destruction Retribution
16 Eldritch Disciple 6
17 Eldritch Disciple 7
18 Eldritch Disciple 8 FEAT
19 Eldritch Disciple 9
20 Eldritch Disciple 10


The DM allows every book and Dragon Magazine.


I've never played a character like this, so I'd appreciate some advice from more experienced players. These are my main concerns:

1) Feats. Are the Corpsecrafter feats worth it? I left Hardened Flesh and Bolster Resistance out since I felt they were inferior. I also need suggestions for the last feat. Are there any other good undead-centric feats? I won't change Craft Wondrous Item.

2) Abilities. We'll be using Point Buy 32 with a houserule. We can choose a "primary" stat, which allows us to raise it to 20 and lowers the point cost like this:

8-16 - 1 point
17-18 - 2 points
19-20 - 3 points

I have something like this, with Wisdom as the "primary" stat.

10/12/14/14/16/14

Does that sound good?


3) What am I supposed to do in battle? The Eldritch Blast won't even come close to the Barbarian's damage and the Ur-Priest spell slots will only go so far. My undead should be able to help with this, but I don't know if that'll be enough. Any suggestions for my Invocations?


4) Undead. Animate Dead and The Dead Walk have separate limits of undead I can control permanently. I can also control some more using Rebuke Undead. Is there any other way for my character to control undead permanently? Is there a way to make something other than Skeletons or Zombies (or Necrosis Carnex) and control them permanently?


Thanks for the help.:smallsmile:

[Fouredged Sword]

Wands and scrolls grant you lots of spell access, becuse you don't need to know the spell to scribe it as a warlock.

I would suggest you look at crafting a wand of control undead useing your warlock abilities. It causes a mindless undead creature to be controled for caster level days with no save, and not HD considerations. Use this to control your high HD zombie/skeletal dragons after you raise them. (use the specific template and go kill some fang and silver dragons for skeletons / zombies respectivly)

Another method is to make a spellstiched undead creature with a high enough wisdom and low HD to have the control undead spell castable a number of times per day as a SLA. Now you control that creature with your high HD minions.

This trick can also grant you an expensive up front, but eternal way to raise undead. Also there is fell animate metamagic. It's great for useing a multi hit targeted attack to finish off a bunch of monsters and raise them all as zombies for free.

[fryplink]

I'm pretty sure you can use rebuke undead to control intelligent undead long term, though where you are going to get it and keep it powerful enough to use well is beyond my mastery of the game.

[dextercorvia]

Wands and scrolls grant you lots of spell access, becuse you don't need to know the spell to scribe it as a warlock.

He won't be able to do this, as he isn't making it to Warlock12.


Another method is to make a spellstiched undead creature with a high enough wisdom and low HD to have the control undead spell castable a number of times per day as a SLA. Now you control that creature with your high HD minions.

This trick can also grant you an expensive up front, but eternal way to raise undead. Also there is fell animate metamagic. It's great for useing a multi hit targeted attack to finish off a bunch of monsters and raise them all as zombies for free.

I got my assumption handed to me the other day on this one. He'd need to be a Sorcerer or Wizard to stitch (possibly anything but himself).


I'm pretty sure you can use rebuke undead to control intelligent undead long term, though where you are going to get it and keep it powerful enough to use well is beyond my mastery of the game.

He'll get it from Ur-Priest 2, but that will only allow him to control up to 2HD. His best bet will be to use his Invocation, and Animate Dead, since his Ur-Priest CL won't be too bad.

[Kefkafreak]

Eldritch Disciple increases the Rebuke too, but yeah, not the best option.

[dextercorvia]

Eldritch Disciple increases the Rebuke too, but yeah, not the best option.

It does? That's unusual. I'm AFB, but if so, that is pretty cool.

[Silva Stormrage]

Normally I don't try to change other peoples builds but is your DM okay with homebrew? Because this homebrew is an awesome necromancy based warlock.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163297

[Kefkafreak]

No homebrew, sorry, but thanks :P

I wouldn't mind changing the build a little though, I'm not sure HFW is worth it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Then I would sneak in a level of sorrcerer for spellstiched undead, and then just buy a wand of control undead or two. Drop binder and hellfire warlock for a single level of sorrcerer and more straight warlock.

[Kefkafreak]

Then I would sneak in a level of sorrcerer for spellstiched undead, and then just buy a wand of control undead or two. Drop binder and hellfire warlock for a single level of sorrcerer and more straight warlock.

So how does this work? I just create a little undead guy like a familiar and he controls the big ones?

[Fouredged Sword]

Control undead is a sor/wiz (necromancy) spell that allows you to force mindless undead to obey you. No save, not HD problems, and it lasts a day per caster level.

Spell stiched lets an undead creature be able to cast a number of sor/wiz spells per day as a SLA, based on the wisdom of the undead. It is expensive, but allows you to basicly make an undead that can cast spells in a limited capacity. You are resticted to evocation and encromancy, but no problem.

Now you create a spellstiched undead with enough wisdom to cast a 2nd level spell as a SLA. Make the spell it can cast control undead. Now control it with your control pool. Now it uses it's one per day casting to control an number of mindless undead you create, but do not control. This allows you to use 4 or 5 hd of control pool to control 40-50 hd of undead. On top of this your undead are organised in squads with an smart undead in charge of a bunch of mindless bruisers.

You get around control restrictions by controling things that control other things, granting indirect control.

Now look for the zombie and skeletal dragon template...

Now look back at control undead...

Now laugh and remember that if you abuse it you will get it taken away, but still it can't be that wronge to use a undead minion and a zombie dragon to fly the party around.

Also note, you can cast desicrate. Never rise dead without it.

[dextercorvia]

Spellstitched creatures aren't magic items (despite needing the feat). How are you getting around the "must know the spell to be stitched" part?

[Fouredged Sword]

I for got that part. Maybe take 3 levels of sorcerer. That would get you the second level spell known you need for that.

Just thought of something!

I wonder of you could take a runestaff and versitile spellcaster. It would grant you the ability to cast a second level spell and knowledge of that spell. A rune staff with a first and second level spell wouldn't be hard to find or very expensive.

[Kefkafreak]

I guess you mean Command Undead. Any suggestions for the spellstitched one? Since I'm going to spend 6000 EXP to make it and it gets to keep all of its special qualities, I want it to be useful on its own.

I'll drop the last ED level instead of HFW (it doesn't advance Ur-Priest anymore and we'll get into early epic levels anyway) and get the Sorc level right after the first ED level (level 9) along with Versatile Spellcaster.

[Undercroft]

A vampire or similar hard to kill undead would be a good choice. Reduce it to 0hp and it goes gaseous and flees back to the coffin. Also it can create spawn of its own allowing for those funky spawn control chains to get around control limits. Plus depending on the class of the vampire you could have it fill whatever role you need.
Main problem is the whole sunlight thing (and perhaps runnign water but aquatic races can be made into vampires too and don't have that weakness).

I'm not 100% sure what your effective cleric level for rebuking is, but i'm pretty sure you'd be able to control a 5 HD vampire with no problems (and thats all it takes for a nice control chain snagging up bigger and bigger vampires).

[Kefkafreak]

A vampire (and maybe a mohrg) would be perfect if I needed a squad of undead protecting my lair, but I believe the whole campaign I'm going to be travelling around, so I need something to take with me.

[Psyren]

My first suggestion is to either get your Monk player to reroll or add some psionics to his build. The rest of you have pretty damn powerful builds and he will end up left in the dust very quickly.

My second suggestion; since Wis is your primary stat, try to get Zen Archery into the build so you can zap with that instead of your 12 dex. You don't want a monster with deflection AC or high dex to ruin your aim.

[Undercroft]

Hmm, what about a Bleakborn (Libris Mortis page 86). 8 hit dice with +2 turn resist, so using rebuke to command may be out of the picture till higher levels. Got 14 wisdom too so you can stitch a couple spells onto it. It has a heat-draining aura which also can heal it back from 0 or negative hit points if stuff is still in the aura range. Also heals from fire damage too and creatures killed by it are animated as zombies under its control.

You'd need cold immunity to not be affected by it's aura. Also perhaps storing it and it's zombies inside a portal hole when not needed would be a good option too.

Otherwise i'd maybe suggest a deathlock or a slaymate. Both are pretty useful and have low enough HD to be rebuked fine. You'd need to maybe get some contingencies crafted onto them to up survivability a little, but if you're gonna splash out on spellstitching then you may as well add contingencies.

[Kefkafreak]

I think I'll settle for a Slaymate, it should help break the Incantatrix even more and a zombie baby will make the rest of the party freak out.

Also:


My first suggestion is to either get your Monk player to reroll or add some psionics to his build. The rest of you have pretty damn powerful builds and he will end up left in the dust very quickly.

We already told him but he doesn't want to change it. I think he doesn't know how badly outclassed he will be. I'll try to convince him to at least play an Unarmed Swordsage.

[Undercroft]

Hmm, if he's dead set on monk maybe have him look at that Tashlatora (or whatever it's called) feat that lets you still progress onk abilities while leveling in a psionic class (i think "monk 2 / psi warrior X" is standard). I think it's in the secrets of sarlona eberron book, but i really can't remember offhand.
It means he still has a monk feel but gets some psionics to toy with.

[Kefkafreak]

By the way, how does the Slaymate aura work for classes who prepare their spells in advance?

[NineThePuma]

I assume Legacy champion is out?

Based on your build, I'd drop HFW and binder completely. You aren't looking to be the DPS of the party. I'd drop deadly chill and find a way to get Tomb Tainted Soul. Destructive Retribution is so much sexier when it's healing you.

[Kefkafreak]

I'll become a Lich by the end of the campaign. Hellfire could be useful for a Healing Blast (and Hellfire Shield and Hellfire Infusion are cool too), that's why I don't replace it, but feel free to suggest something better.

[Psyren]

How are you getting Healing Blast with that build? HB requires you to be non-evil, but Ur-Priest requires you to be evil.

[Kefkafreak]

It requires a non-evil deity, which I have (not a real deity though, I wouldn't be able to be Ur-Priest then)

[blazingshadow]

hellfire can't be used as a lich but then again it probably won't matter by then

[Psyren]

It requires a non-evil deity, which I have (not a real deity though, I wouldn't be able to be Ur-Priest then)

If you don't have a "real deity," what do you have? Eldritch Disciple needs one, Ur-Priest disallows it.

The adaptation to Ur-Priest gets you around this contradiction, by letting you worship a dead god instead.

[Zonugal]

If you are looking for a bit more versatility in this type of build might I offer that instead of picking up those two last levels of Eldritch Disciple you trade them in for two levels of Chameleon which opens up some small time arcane/divine spells for utility purposes as well as the coveted free, floating feat which can serve one day as Extra Invocation and on the next Craft Wondrous Item?

The build might end up looking like this:

Warlock 4/Binder 1/Ur-Priest 2/Chameleon 2/Eldritch Disciple 8/Hellfire Warlock 3

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, without Warlock12, you can't make magic items anyways, so there's no point to any of the crafting feats.

As far as Undead go, The Dead Walk + Corpsecrafter feats (and yes, they really *ARE* that much fun) is good for lulz. Basically, you get free temporary minions who explode when they die.

[Kefkafreak]

I need the feat to make my phylactery. I hadn't realized that undead can't use hellfire, I'll have to think about that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I need the feat to make my phylactery. I hadn't realized that undead can't use hellfire, I'll have to think about that.

You can't make your phylactery without Warlock 12 anyways. And yes, you can't use Hellfire while undead.

[Zonugal]

Yea, without Warlock12, you can't make magic items anyways, so there's no point to any of the crafting feats.

Ur-Priest still brings a whole slew of handy spells for crafting so don't throw out the whole idea on account of not reaching 12th level in Warlock.


As far as Undead go, The Dead Walk + Corpsecrafter feats (and yes, they really *ARE* that much fun) is good for lulz. Basically, you get free temporary minions who explode when they die.

You'll want to check with your DM if this work as the corpsecrafter feats specify they work on undead created by spells, not invocations.

[Kefkafreak]

You can't make your phylactery without Warlock 12 anyways. And yes, you can't use Hellfire while undead.

it's caster level that matters, and ED raises it to more than 11, which is the only requirement.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ur-Priest still brings a whole slew of handy spells for crafting so don't throw out the whole idea on account of not reaching 12th level in Warlock.



You'll want to check with your DM if this work as the corpsecrafter feats specify they work on undead created by spells, not invocations.

Invocations = Spell-Like Abilities, which are explicitly included in the Corpsecrafter feat description.

[Kefkafreak]

1 Warlock 1 Iron Will, Spell Focus(Evil) (Human Feat), Corpsecrafter (Flaw 1), Nimble Bones (Flaw 2)
2 Warlock 2
3 Warlock 3 Craft Wondrous Item
4 Warlock 4
5 Binder 1
6 Ur-Priest 1 Deadly Chill
7 Ur-Priest 2
8 Eldritch Disciple 1
9 Sorcerer 1 Versatile Spellcaster
10 Eldritch Disciple 2
11 HFW 1
12 HFW 2 Destruction Retribution
13 HFW 3
14 Eldritch Disciple 3
15 Eldritch Disciple 4 FEAT
16 Eldritch Disciple 5
17 Eldritch Disciple 6
18 Eldritch Disciple 7 FEAT
19 Eldritch Disciple 8
20 Eldritch Disciple 9

That's the updated build. I've asked my DM and he's OK with me carrying a small army of undead, so I'll definitely be using a spellstitched Slaymate.

I didn't like that all of my feats were ones I could take at level 1, so I'm going to be using flaws.

I won't become a Lich unless I can roleplay some way to keep the Hellfire, but Craft Wondrous Item is still useful (The rest of the party will be paying ME to make their items, instead of a NPC, and that's a lot of extra gold which can be used to equip my undead). If I don't have the required spell, I can just UMD a scroll of it.

I'm still open to suggestions.

[Undercroft]

Slaymate aura for casters that need to prepare spells (eg. wizards) need to be within the aura when they prepare the spell to get the effect and can cast it without needing the slaymate about.

[Kefkafreak]

That's what I thought, thanks.