Rebuilding a Character, help requested

[Caliphbubba]

Hello Playground!

I have the oppertunity to rebuild a character that I've been playing for quite awhile. When the game started it was supposed to be "Core Only", but as time progressed the group evolved away from that quite a lot. So a lot of the choices I made reflected that, and recently I've convinced the Co-DMs that we ought to all have the oppertunity to re-build our characters from the ground up.

Some details cannot be changed, such as race, equipment(that can be done in game however) and general theme of the character, but even then I think I can do better than a Dwarven Barbarian 5/Fighter2/Stonelord 2. lol

Pretty much any source is available.

so without further ado:
Dagnal Stoneguts

Dwarf CG

Str 16
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 13
Cha 11

She is a run away Dwarven Princess with anger issues, underwent the "Ritual of the Stonelord" to become an adult in the eyes of the dwarven nation and her father. She is typically the only front line fighter-type in her little group of adventurers, but gets outshown pretty often by her gnomish druid companion in that regard.

The levels of Stone Lord were completely roleplaying in nature, and don't need to stay on the build, a thematic replacement of some sort would probably be good.

She typically fights with a Dwarven Waraxe and Sheild (horrible I know), or a Greataxe.

Current feats are: Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Endurance.

I was granted Pounce by a demon.

At the moment I'm considering a few different builds, but they all have Warblade levels with Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw maneuvers to one degree or another. I'm having trouble deciding whether or not to delay going into Warblade for 2 or for 4 levels. And exactly what my feats/maneuvers ought to be.

Right now I'm leaning between Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 5

or Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 7

I've also considered Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Feat Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric of Hanseath 1 (with travel devotion, and War Domain for WF Greataxe) /Warblade 3
but I'll only do that if fractional BAB flies

[Keld Denar]

Hmmm, dwarfy dwarf is martially inclined...

If you can "adjust" Stonelord to fit the Deepwarden fluff (Races of Stone), it meshes pretty well with you theme. Unlike Stonelord, Deepwarden is particularly awesome. The easiest way in is:

Ranger1/Barbarian2/Fighter2/Deepwarden2

Alternatively, Ranger3/Barbarian2 gives a bit more skills, but also a wasted feat in TWF or Rapid Shot which probably won't be used. The Fighter levels at least let you pick your bonus feat.

This gets you +Con to AC instead of +Dex. As a dwarf meleer, you should have more Con than Dex anyway, so this is a boon of a handful of AC points.

From there, one fun thing I like to do is grab an Urgrosh. Sure, its kinda a dumb looking weapon, but take a look at it. Its two weapons you can switch between at will, between piercing and slashing. Not bad. You don't have to waste proficiency on it either, since you are a Dwarf. Now open Complete Warrior and check out Exotic Weapon Master. The ability you are looking for is Flurry of Strikes. This is your bread and butter. The thing to note is that it DOESN'T STATE YOU HAVE TO USE THE WEAPON AS A DOUBLE WEAPON to gain the benefit, mearly use a double weapon. Urgrosh is a double weapon. If you only use one head at a time, you can 2:1 Power Attack with it and get all of the other awesome benefits that make THF the damage monster he is. Extra attacks increase damage geometrically, even if you take a minor penalty.

Other things to focus on to solidify your Str/Con focus would be Steadfast Determination (PHBII), and possibly Extra Rage if you want to be able to rage more than 1/day.

From that point on, two of my favorite PrCs to head into are Occult Slayer and Pious Templar (although you could do both, OC is only 5 levels long). OC gives you the AMAZING Mind Blank ability, which is handy, even if the rest of the abilities are meh. Pious Templar gives Mettle at level 1, which with your strong Fort and Will saves is pretty nice. It also gives bonus feats and some fast progression Paladin casting. Normally, Paladin casting is trashy, especially at that level, but if you dig through the Spell Compendium, you can find some real gems like Righeous Fury, Rhino's Rush, and Knight's Move.

[Caliphbubba]

Thanks Keld for the input, I hadn't even considered Deepwarden as an option. It would be easy to refluff the Stonelord Ritual stuff to Deepwarden, however the big draw is the Con to AC thing, and right now my Con and Dex are both the same, so it's less of a concern for me. In fact I was considering taking the Whirling Frenzy ACF for even more Dex.

I was primarly going to try and cover that Fluff with the Stone Dragon stuff from the Warblade levels.

I guess I was laboring under the impression that ToB is kind of the Gold Standard for melee these days and was pretty set on including it, in some fashion, but you've shown me another path to consider. Thanks!

I'm definatly going to look at the Urgosh, as an option and the Exotic Weapon Master does look pretty cool.

I'll have to look at the OC and PT a little closer too.

Do you think I ought to try and keep the Shock Trooper line?

[myancey]

Thanks Keld for the input, I hadn't even considered Deepwarden as an option. It would be easy to refluff the Stonelord Ritual stuff to Deepwarden, however the big draw is the Con to AC thing, and right now my Con and Dex are both the same, so it's less of a concern for me. I was primarly going to try and cover that Fluff with the Stone Dragon stuff from the Warblade levels.


I agree with Keld.

You should try and drop the dex for more Con. Dwarves get some awesome armor in Races of Stone, easily making up for dexterity benefits. Plus, I found in another thread that if you're a dwarf you can tumble in heavy armor--which is just dandy, frankly.

Having a higher con will also go a long way in optimizing you for the melee combat role--taking the hits others can't.

[Caliphbubba]

I agree with Keld.

You should try and drop the dex for more Con. Dwarves get some awesome armor in Races of Stone, easily making up for dexterity benefits. Plus, I found in another thread that if you're a dwarf you can tumble in heavy armor--which is just dandy, frankly.

Having a higher con will also go a long way in optimizing you for the melee combat role--taking the hits others can't.

That's a fair statement. I guess I was hell bent on preserving the movement speed buff from Fast Movement by trying to stay away from super heavy armor. I don't need to trade it away because I have Pounce from another source. I've got Boots of Striding and Springing and the DM ruled that my Barbarian Fast Movement and the Boots stacked, so having a 40' foot move as a dwarf in a Mithril Breastplate was pretty nice.

[Keld Denar]

Your DM ruled correctly. BoS&S is an enhancement bonus to speed. Barbarian's Fast Movement is untyped. Untyped and Enhancement bonuses always stack with each other, since they are of different types.

And yea, if you can go Warblade, that's probably a better idea. I figured Warblade was off the table from your "nearly core only" statement. EWM is really only a neat trick if you'll be full attacking a lot. Stone Dragon has nearly exclusively standard action strikes, so the two don't synergize.

If you DO go Dwarf Warblade, look into Deepstone Sentinal. Its a 5 level long PrC accessable from level 10+ (due to BAB), and gives you some cool Stonelord+ style mastery over stone elements. Raising pilars of stone is handy for blocking doors and passages, creating choke points if you do a lot of dungeoneering. Not as handy if you are flying, though, but then again, the whole Stone Dragon school is pretty much worthless if you are flying. Check with your DM to see if he/she'll aleviate that restriction, since it is one of the main reasons why Stone Dragon is considered one of the weaker schools.

[Heatwizard]

I guess I was laboring under the impression that ToB is kind of the Gold Standard for melee these days and was pretty set on including it, in some fashion, but you've shown me another path to consider. Thanks!

It's not the only game in town, but it's hard to go wrong with. If nothing else, you'd probably benefit from a dip. If you take Warblade as your ninth level, you can skip straight to third level maneuvers; Punishing Stance lets you qualify for Iron Heart Surge, and Battle Leader's Charge does the same for White Raven Tactics.

I think you can do that, anyway. I might have missed something.

[Caliphbubba]

Your DM ruled correctly. BoS&S is an enhancement bonus to speed. Barbarian's Fast Movement is untyped. Untyped and Enhancement bonuses always stack with each other, since they are of different types.

And yea, if you can go Warblade, that's probably a better idea. I figured Warblade was off the table from your "nearly core only" statement. EWM is really only a neat trick if you'll be full attacking a lot. Stone Dragon has nearly exclusively standard action strikes, so the two don't synergize.

If you DO go Dwarf Warblade, look into Deepstone Sentinal. Its a 5 level long PrC accessable from level 10+ (due to BAB), and gives you some cool Stonelord+ style mastery over stone elements. Raising pilars of stone is handy for blocking doors and passages, creating choke points if you do a lot of dungeoneering. Not as handy if you are flying, though, but then again, the whole Stone Dragon school is pretty much worthless if you are flying. Check with your DM to see if he/she'll aleviate that restriction, since it is one of the main reasons why Stone Dragon is considered one of the weaker schools.

That was my thought on the BoS&S and Fast Movement too, but some of the other people in the group didn't agree.

It started off as "nearly Core" but, it's diverged a great deal since then. That's basically why he's letting us rebuild the characters. I probably would have been a Warblade type character from the get-go if was an option at first. It is an option now.

I did look at the Deepstone Sentinal, but it was sort of underwhelming to me. Although the stone pillar thing would be pretty neat if I went Dungeoncrasher Fighter I guess. It seems odd that a class would require +10 BAB and then not be a full BAB class too.

We don't end up flying most of the time or fighting a lot of flying creatures that actually fly, our group is very sort of "Old School" in mentality where we have a healy-type, a blaster, a skill monkey, a fighty type... it just so happens that they're starting to see that our Druid buddy can do all of those things, and better then the rest of us, often all at the same time.

SOOOO we're trying to have better builds all around, apart from the Druid who is already good by virtue of begin a druid.


It's not the only game in town, but it's hard to go wrong with. If nothing else, you'd probably benefit from a dip. If you take Warblade as your ninth level, you can skip straight to third level maneuvers; Punishing Stance lets you qualify for Iron Heart Surge, and Battle Leader's Charge does the same for White Raven Tactics.

I think you can do that, anyway. I might have missed something.

I think that is right. It was one of the things I was trying to decied about, whether Warblade should be a dip later on or a primary class, and if it is a primary class how late should I wait to grab it...that kind of thing.

[Caliphbubba]

In the vein of focusing more on Con/Str and less on dex, and trying to retain the "stonelord" and the Ritual of the Stonelord being an event that took place in game, would it be an OK compromise to change from being a "normal" Dwarf to a Earth Dwarf from Unearthed Arcana?

That would bump her Str to 18, and dump her Dex to a 16 and Fit thematically I think...

[Essence_of_War]

Your original plan of Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 5 is pretty solid if you're planning on doing some tripping. In fact, if you want to be a tripper, I'd take the WB as a 2 level dip (getting at least 2 of the DM save->skill check maneuvers and then maybe sudden leap + prerequisite also), and then get into Crusader. You'll pick up Thicket of Blades at 2nd level (8th character level) which you'll be in good position to derive ridiculous benefits from.

As you mentioned, you could consider going into Deepstone Sentinel at 11th level if you keep up the full BAB. Although I think that class is pretty meh, it does give you a "Bulwark of Defense" style class feature which can be helpful to control the battlefield if you're a frontline fighter. Getting that only requires a 1-2 level committement as well. Personally, I think you're probably better off getting it from a Knight dip or a Cleric dip (for Earth Devotion) if you think it's a saucy enough class feature.

One more thought, if it interests you and you picked your WB maneuvers carefully, you could even qualify for Master of 9 later if you'd like.

[Keld Denar]

Knight's Bulwark of Defense ability only works if your foe begins their turn in your threatened area. Thus, it doesn't work if they start from outside of your reach and tumble through you. Of course, Thicket handles that situation nicely.

If you do go that route, I'd suggest getting Standstill. Things that are too big and/or strong to trip often have lowish Ref saves. That allows you to control pretty much everything that actually moves using movement speed.

[Caliphbubba]

Your original plan of Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 5 is pretty solid if you're planning on doing some tripping. In fact, if you want to be a tripper, I'd take the WB as a 2 level dip (getting at least 2 of the DM save->skill check maneuvers and then maybe sudden leap + prerequisite also), and then get into Crusader. You'll pick up Thicket of Blades at 2nd level (8th character level) which you'll be in good position to derive ridiculous benefits

well that is certainly another thing I hadn't thought of. I was planning on grabbing the Wolf Totem for the tripping, simply to have another option in combat and still retain the Shock Trooper goodness with the increased movement and my Boots of Striding and Springing. I could switch to focusing on Tripping more, for sure. hmmmmm so many good options.

The latest thing I was looking at was doing what @Keld suggested and getting into Deepwarden, taking warblade for levels 8 & 9.

So the latest iteration, before considering your Crusader suggestion is

Ranger1/WTBarbarian2/Fighter2/Deepwarden2/Warblade2

trying to find an ACF for Ranger to drop tracking, cause I get it back with Deepwarden. and considering whether to get Dungeoncrasher Fighter instead of a feat.

[Essence_of_War]

One additional thing to keep in mind with ToB classes is the magic number '6'.

If you take more than 6 levels outside of classes that don't directly boost your initiator level you won't be able to initiate 9th level maneuvers. Moreover, every 2 dip levels slows down your progression to 9th level maneuvers by 1 level (a 2-level dip gets 9th at ecl 18, 4-level at ecl 19, 6-level at ecl 20).

If there is no explicit reason to take the fighter dip (you don't need the feat or the ACF), you might want to consider dropping it back to a 1-level dip or cutting it entirely so that you can get to 9th level maneuvers.

[Caliphbubba]

One additional thing to keep in mind with ToB classes is the magic number '6'.

If you take more than 6 levels outside of classes that don't directly boost your initiator level you won't be able to initiate 9th level maneuvers. Moreover, every 2 dip levels slows down your progression to 9th level maneuvers by 1 level (a 2-level dip gets 9th at ecl 18, 4-level at ecl 19, 6-level at ecl 20).

If there is no explicit reason to take the fighter dip (you don't need the feat or the ACF), you might want to consider dropping it back to a 1-level dip or cutting it entirely so that you can get to 9th level maneuvers.

So something more like Ranger1/WTBarbarian2/Fighter1/Warblade1/Deepwarden2/Warblade2

or

Rng1/WTBar2/Fight1/Warblade1/Deepwarden2/Warblade+1/Cruader1

would be better?

[Keld Denar]

Depends on how your DM reads the "starts play" section of stance aquisition. If he allows you first level of the class to get a higher level stance, then taking Crusader at that point is good because you'll have a Crusader IL of exactly 5, high enough to pick up Thicket of Blades stance, if that is your goal. If your DM dictates that your first stance for a class has to be 1st level, then you'll want to take a Crusader level at 8 and another at 9 to get Thicket then.

[Essence_of_War]

Basically it depends. If you think there is a shot at the game going to 20, strongly consider building in a way that 9th level maneuvers are a possibility. If you think it is highly unlikely, build for what's good now. I'm ever the optimist about getting to Time Stands Still or Strike of Perfect Clarity but whatevs :smallbiggrin:


Other than that both builds look better, and "What Keld said" re: the usual ambiguities :smallsmile:

[Caliphbubba]

Thanks guys for the help! I apperciate it very much. I think I'm going to hold off on the Crusader and the Tripping Focus stuff and mostly just keep the tripping as an option.

I think the Deepwarden + the stone dragon/tiger claw stuff (with possible earth dwarf conversion) will preserve the thematic elements of the character, while at the same time making her over all more effective and all so be able to contribute out of combat better as well.

I'll post the full build when it's done, if you'd be so kind to give it a look.

Thanks again :smallbiggrin:

[Caliphbubba]

OK Folks, here is the finished build as it stands now please let me know what you think.

Dagnal Stoneguts

Female Earth Dwarf

Ranger1/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/DeepWarden 2/Warblade 2

Str 18
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 13
Cha 11
Base Attack: +9

Skills: Concentration +16,Jump +18, Balance +14, Tumble +14,Climb +9, Heal +6, Know(dungeon) +7,Survival +8(+10 underground),
Search +6, Disable Device +6, Listen +6
Skill Tricks: Twisted Charge

Feats:Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Endurance, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Improved Trip

Manuevers Known: Momement of Perfect Mind, Mountain Hammer, Sudden Leap, Wall of Blades, Claw at the Moon
Stances Known: Punishing Stance

Class Features: Trapfinding(from ranger ACF), Wild Empathy, Favored Enemy: Humanoid(Orc), Fast Movement, Rage 1/day, Weapon Aptitude,
Battle Clarity, Track, Trap Sense +1, Stone Warden, Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor

Fort +17, Reflex +8, Will +5