Help explain Psionics

[Major]

So, I'm making a character for a future game and I decided to finally sit down and try out psionics. Now, I know I need to learn the system before I try anything completely. But due to the time it will take to read all of it I was hoping the playground could give me a summary of the various Psionic classes so I could try and pick what I want to do.


My stats aren't distributed yet, but my rolls are: 11, 13, 14, 16, 16, 17
And I get a +2 dex, -2str

I'm playing a Tibbit and want to be in cat form most the time if that helps.

In general I would like to request a summary of each class and what might go good with a kitty. I MIGHT do thrallheard or whatever it called for the lolz in the future, but not sure because I don't know Psionics.

[Godskook]

-Thrallherd is generally considered leadership+ and treated with the same OP labels.
-You can't manifest past your manifester level(or your adjusted ML, see specific feats like overchannel)


Psion - Wizard replacement, but they aren't really as similar as you'd expect. Admittedly, disciplines play a key part in defining who you are, but its not as strict as wizard, and the 'universal' powers are the majority, not the discipline ones.

Wilder - Sorcerer replacement. Will frequently be casting powers with more augmentation than he's paying for, but makes up for it with a borked list. Build like a sorcerer(selecting highly versatile powers), and you'll be fine.

Ardent - Build your own psionicist, in a class. If you can get the online ACF approved, it gets even worse, but there's nothing new here. Multiclass friendlier than the others cause practiced manifester allows you to lose up to 4 levels without losing a ML, and an additional 3 if you want access to 9th level powers before epic(so you can play with up to 7 class levels elsewhere and still get 9ths). Your DM should enforce a certain level of themes when customizing mantles, if nothing else. Notable for gish and dips primarily(otherwise, why aren't you playing one of the above?).

Erudite - I've heard nothing but bad things about this class, and if I were you, I'd stay away, cause its poorly worded and likely OP(depending on DM rulings). CPsi's attempt to get a more wizardly psionicist.

Psychic Warrior - The original king of smack was built on this chasis, and with fighter bonus feats plus tons of combat powers(including the rare expansion), he just rocks the house.

Soulknife - Bad, but in a bad way. If you want a cheap weapon as part of your build, take Ancestral Relic from BoED. The only good builds I hear about dip so they can dip soulbow.

Psychic Rogue - Upgrades the rogue to psionics, and it *IS* an upgrade. Not tier 1 material, so I guess it depends on your DM.

Everything else - I honestly don't hear much about things like Lurk or Divine Mind, except that the latter offends somebody due to fluff. Nothing horribly unbalancing I guess, so they might be viable, might not.

[Zaq]

The Divine Mind is so bad it was an Iron Chef ingredient. (Having entered that one . . . yeah, it's bad.) Just sayin'.

The Lurk, I have never seen in play . . . but just from reading them, they seem like a lowish T4. They're kind of like Scouts in that their nifty tricks (the Augments) only work on one swing per round (and, unlike Scouts, to my knowledge there's no way to get an Augment on a full attack), so they lose a lot of their punch once multiple swings become commonplace . . . and their Augments often pull from multiple resource pools (you have a certain number of Augments per day, and some of them pull from your PP reserve), so they can drain themselves dry a lot faster than they really should, much more easily than they really should. They also make disappointing skill users . . . they're INT-based and get 4 + INT, but they have a rather limited list. Not terrible, but not a replacement for a Rogue/Factotum/Incarnate/whatever.

That said, they do get a decent power list (and like all psionic classes, Expanded Knowledge is awesome), so I wouldn't kick them down to T5. They're just . . . not very high on T4. And of course, the Psychic Rogue really fills their particular niche much better.

I do reiterate that all of this is based just on reading the class, not from play experience.

[Major]

Right now I'm leaning towards an Ardent Tibbet, not sure if that's good though. Still reading the system.

[Asheram]

So, I'm making a character for a future game and I decided to finally sit down and try out psionics. Now, I know I need to learn the system before I try anything completely. But due to the time it will take to read all of it I was hoping the playground could give me a summary of the various Psionic classes so I could try and pick what I want to do.


So, you need only the general thoughts on the classes, or do you need the whole psionic(magic)-system rules?




Psion - Wizard replacement, but they aren't really as similar as you'd expect. Admittedly, disciplines play a key part in defining who you are, but its not as strict as wizard, and the 'universal' powers are the majority, not the discipline ones.


Really? I've always seen the Psion more as a Sorcerer with refluffed spellslots.

[Psyren]

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10635999) (the one by Peregrine from my sig) should sum up what you need to know.

[Zaq]

Eh, basically it depends on what you want to do. Are you happy being a pretty much full-time caster? Do you like the whole "Psychic Rogue" (honestly, just what it says on the tin) angle? Do you want to be a kitty who manages to somehow buff himself into a killing machine with just the power of his mind? If you want to be a caster, what flavor of effects do you like to produce?

[Urpriest]

Really? I've always seen the Psion more as a Sorcerer with refluffed spellslots.

Int-based, school specialization, themes of study and contemplation...plus, if the Psion is the Sorceror, who is the Wilder? And don't say Truenamer!

[The Glyphstone]

Int-based, school specialization, themes of study and contemplation...plus, if the Psion is the Sorceror, who is the Wilder? And don't say Truenamer!

Honestly, the Wilder is closer to the Adept. Still a potential threat, but it's crippled by its absurdly low powers known and the fact that it's the only class in the game other than Truenamer whos primary class feature gets worse as it levels up. Most caster classes reward you for PrCing early; Wilder punishes you for not PrCing early. (And that one PrC in CPsi that makes Psions better Wilders than Wilders are).

[Zaq]

Honestly, the Wilder is closer to the Adept. Still a potential threat, but it's crippled by its absurdly low powers known and the fact that it's the only class in the game other than Truenamer whos primary class feature gets worse as it levels up. Most caster classes reward you for PrCing early; Wilder punishes you for not PrCing early. (And that one PrC in CPsi that makes Psions better Wilders than Wilders are).

The problem with Wilders PrCing is that by doing so, they give up the only advantage they had over Psions. If you're not making Wild Surge better, you're basically just a Psion with no discipline powers and a tiny fraction of the powers known. The existence of Overchannel just rubs salt in the wound, because it's relatively easy for a Psion to ape your big trick if you just get a few points and PrC out. (And since you're PrCing, you won't even get the small advantages of higher BAB and a better skill list.)

I like Wilders. I think they're perfectly respectable characters (even if they do tend to be rather unforgiving to build). But I'm fully aware that Psions are better in pretty much every way except one . . . and the prospect of giving that one advantage up just doesn't seem wise.

Yes, I know that Wild Surge gets riskier and costlier. I'm well aware of this. That said, it's still all you've got.

[sonofzeal]

If Psions are Sorcerers, Wilders are Battle Sorcerers.

Better HD, 3/4 BAB, better armor proficiencies, technically a full-casting class with an awesome list but crippled by spells-known. Function vaguely as a sort of pseudo-gish; they're not blending melee and magic the way PsiWars and Duskblades are, but they also do still get 9th level powers which neither PsiWars nor Duskblades can match.

All in all, I'd say the Wilder is reasonable. Tough to play, but they have enough advantages to balance out their disadvantages. Battle Sorcs aren't as good as regular sorcs, and Wilders aren't as good as Psions, but they'll both make sense for some builds at least. Especially with Metamorphosis.

[Psyren]

If you like Wilders, give the Pathfinder version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder) a try. It's still behind the Psion but they can do some fun things; they also get an at-will similar to Eldritch Blast and they have various flavors of Surge to choose from with different drawbacks. The capstone is impractical, yet awesome. Plus, Psionics Expanded is supposed to have more surge options for them.


The problem with Wilders PrCing is that by doing so, they give up the only advantage they had over Psions. If you're not making Wild Surge better, you're basically just a Psion with no discipline powers and a tiny fraction of the powers known.

In 3.5, they absolutely should PrC. You never really want more than a +3 surge, because your chances of Enervation go up as well. And since they don't get much else from their class beyond that, there's no point in staying.

In Pathfinder, the Enervation rate is fixed, so maxing out your surge becomes a much more attractive prospect. (Plus, the right Surge makes enervation less onerous.)

[Major]

I ended up deciding to go Ardent for various reasons. However, I do have another psionic question.

Astral Construct and how it mixes with the feat Ectopic . Normally an astral construct gets an ability based on its level. Does the feat replace it with new forms or can you give the new forms powers also?

Just curious because I could get it free as a mantle (if I pick creation) and unsure if I should take the spider form and then toss on fly or something. Maybe cleave?

Edit: Honestly mantle help in general would be nice...

I might be filling a blaster role, not entirely sure what I should try and do as an Ardent tibbet. I don't want to be useless in kitty form (thus why I thinking blaster). But with no strength it means I don't want to be doing physical attacks. (I have 3 strength and a tiny creature)

So unless someone has a better idea on what I can do in a war campaign to not be useless as an Ardent I'm thinking a blaster build with one mantle and a mind controlling type in another (thrallherd)

Edit2: Also unless someone thinks of a better idea, I was thinking of going Knowledge Devotion route, but is that at all useful for an ardent?

Edit3: Our party is mostly evil (Definitely Chaotic) and we work with Drow as a side note.

[The Glyphstone]

The problem with Wilders PrCing is that by doing so, they give up the only advantage they had over Psions. If you're not making Wild Surge better, you're basically just a Psion with no discipline powers and a tiny fraction of the powers known. The existence of Overchannel just rubs salt in the wound, because it's relatively easy for a Psion to ape your big trick if you just get a few points and PrC out. (And since you're PrCing, you won't even get the small advantages of higher BAB and a better skill list.)

I like Wilders. I think they're perfectly respectable characters (even if they do tend to be rather unforgiving to build). But I'm fully aware that Psions are better in pretty much every way except one . . . and the prospect of giving that one advantage up just doesn't seem wise.

Yes, I know that Wild Surge gets riskier and costlier. I'm well aware of this. That said, it's still all you've got.

That's sort of the point - Wilders are so awful that a pure-classed Wilder is inferior in every way, shape, and form to a Psion with levels in Anarchic Initiate (in addition to it being easier for said Psion to qualify for).

Now that it's pointed out, the Sorcerer/Battle Sorcerer analogy is a better one that Sorcerer/Adept.

[Psyren]

I ended up deciding to go Ardent for various reasons. However, I do have another psionic question.

Astral Construct and how it mixes with the feat Ectopic . Normally an astral construct gets an ability based on its level. Does the feat replace it with new forms or can you give the new forms powers also?

>_<

If your DM hasn't seen the part about "Ectopic Form" and such, don't show him. Use the Astral Construct from the XPH/SRD, and ignore Complete Psionic's change.

Mantle help to follow, have something on the stove.

EDIT: Before anything, are you allowed to use the Ardent ACFs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), specifically Mantle Substitution and/ord Dominant Ideal? These will affect my recommendations significantly.

[Major]

Why are those forms bad? I noticed that the Creation mantle gave it to me, thus why I asked.

On a side note while reading I got confused about when I can take a power.

Example: The Mental Mantle.

"5 Psychic Crush A: Brutally crush target's mental essence, reducing subject to 1 hit points."

Is the 1 an error in my book? Cause the normal is -1. Is it supposed to be -1 or is that why the 5 vs 9 difference?

What is the 5 and the A? I thought the 5 was powerpoints, but then I looked at the power "Psychic crush" and its 9 power points? Is it different for the Ardent vs the Psion?

Or is that 5 something else? Can I take that power at 5 or 9?

And the "A" I got no idea...

[The Glyphstone]

5 is the level of the power - you gain that power when you are high level enough to manifest powers of that level.

A means it can be Augmented, improved by spending more power points on it than the minimum.

[Major]

As an Ardent though I don't have a max powers list though...

[Psyren]

Why are those forms bad? I noticed that the Creation mantle gave it to me, thus why I asked.

Ectopic Form was one of various stealth nerfs added in CPsi. The Astral Construct from the XPH doesn't need Ectopic Forms - you can freely pick and choose abilities to add to it from these menus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm) (depending on its level) instead of being forced into the various preset packages introduced in CPsi. Better yet, getting different shapes didn't cost you valuable feats.


On a side note while reading I got confused about when I can take a power.

Example: The Mental Mantle.

"5 Psychic Crush A: Brutally crush target's mental essence, reducing subject to 1 hit points."

What is the 5 and the A? I thought the 5 was powerpoints, but then I looked at the power "Psychic crush" and its 9 power points? Is it different for the Ardent vs the Psion?

Or is that 5 something else? Can I take that power at 5 or 9?

The 5 is the power's level. This is not the same as your character's level. Psychic Crush is a 5th-level power, and just like a Wizard getting a 5th-level spell, the earliest you would get access to it is character level 9.


And the "A" I got no idea...

The "A" denotes powers that can be Augmented.

Partially ninja'ed.


As an Ardent though I don't have a max powers list though...

Not sure I understand you. Your Powers Known as an Ardent (maximum 21) is given on the class table, CPsi pg. 6.

[Major]

No I mean, the whole "5th level powers" when I can take those. You said earliest 9th, but where does that come from?

I've seen Psions have a "Max level power" but Ardent's don't

[Zaq]

No I mean, the whole "5th level powers" when I can take those. You said earliest 9th, but where does that come from?

I've seen Psions have a "Max level power" but Ardent's don't

{{scrubbed}}
2) The number one most important rule in all of psionics is (say it with me, everyone!) you can never spend more power points on any given power than your manifester level. Since the Ardent can learn "any power they can manifest," and the number of PP you can spend on a power is limited by your manifester level, an Ardent can only learn a power if their manifester level is high enough to pay for the PP cost.

[wuwuwu]

No I mean, the whole "5th level powers" when I can take those. You said earliest 9th, but where does that come from?

I've seen Psions have a "Max level power" but Ardent's don't

An Ardent can learn any power it can manifest. You can manifest a power when you can pay the amount of powerpoints needed to manifest it (nonaugmented). You can pay a number of powerpoints equal to your manifester level.

So an Ardent can learn a 5th level power at level 9, because a 5th level power costs 9pp to manifest (unaugmented), and you need to be ML 9 to pay 9 power points.

Hope that helped!

[Major]

1) Please stop using apostrophes to pluralize. Also, periods and other forms of sentence-final punctuation are pretty awesome. You should use them more.

Usually please stop doing X requires a person to have made more than one mistake (aka a typo)...

2) The number one most important rule in all of psionics is (say it with me, everyone!) you can never spend more power points on any given power than your manifester level. Since the Ardent can learn "any power they can manifest," and the number of PP you can spend on a power is limited by your manifester level, an Ardent can only learn a power if their manifester level is high enough to pay for the PP cost.

Gotcha, so I have to look at the powers specific point cost to determine when I get it. Since the power has 9 power points, not till level 9. Thank you, that's what I was curious about. It isn't so much a max power level, it is a max points that I can spend.

Edit: So all 5th level powers are 9 points?

[Psyren]

No I mean, the whole "5th level powers" when I can take those. You said earliest 9th, but where does that come from?

Here you go:


At each additional level, an ardent learns one new power from her available mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however.

For example, an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost.

As the example illustrates, you must be 5th-level to learn a 5PP power. Similarly, you must be 9th-level to learn Psychic Crush, a 9PP power.



Edit: So all 5th level powers are 9 points?

Yes. To get a power's level, divide its base PP cost by 2 and round up.

[Major]

Alright, I'm reading various handbooks, but for those that know a good amount and such, what mantles would you suggest? Should I picked based on powers, mantle abilities, etc?

[The Glyphstone]

Gotcha, so I have to look at the powers specific point cost to determine when I get it. Since the power has 9 power points, not till level 9. Thank you, that's what I was curious about. It isn't so much a max power level, it is a max points that I can spend.

Edit: So all 5th level powers are 9 points?

it's a fairly easy formula: (Level * 2) -1, minimum 1.
1st level costs 1
2nd costs 3
3rd costs 5
4th costs 7
5th costs 9

Etc.

Anything with an Augment can have more points spent on it if your level is high enough, allowing additional effects for damage. For example, Crystal Shard is a 1st level power that deals 1d6 Damage. It has an Augment of +1 power point = +1d6 extra damage on the attack.

[Psyren]

Alright, I'm reading various handbooks, but for those that know a good amount and such, what mantles would you suggest? Should I picked based on powers, mantle abilities, etc?

Again, I need to know if you get Dominant Ideal and Mantle Substitution first. For instance, you could substitute almost any blasty powers you wanted into Mental Power, and it has a way better granted ability than Energy.

[Major]

I asked him over Skype and he planned to read this thread so I assume he'll ask questions and post.

[Psyren]

I'll assume that he disallows them both and you're stuck with the Mantles as written (your worst-case scenario.)

Your best mantle for blasting is Energy; the granted power isn't great but it isn't terrible either. Creation is good no matter what - even if your DM goes with the nerf (AC really, really didn't need to be nerfed, it's still far behind what wizards and clerics can summon), Astral Construct is too good to pass up.

Deception is a fantastic, primarily defense-oriented mantle with a great granted ability and powers, including Bend Reality (Limited Wish.) Finally, Freedom is perhaps the best mantle in the game, and gives you more defense, plus utility.

That is 4 of your possible 6 mantles - at this point, you should probably be Prestige Classing.

[Major]

I looked at the prestige classes and what would you recommend? I didn't have much time since I was leaving, but the quick skim didn't seem that great.

So...

Energy: Great for blasting
Creation: Good for summons
Deception: Utility
freedom: Utility and +10ft speed.

If he allows the two what would you recommend? (Like Mantles is obviously all custom so easy to do, but what about the other one?)

Honestly I know energy seems good as a primary, but what else should be my main? Creation? Cause Deception seems only useful for wish (unless I missing something), and freedom...well, actually freedom is pretty cool.

[Psyren]

Assuming he allows Dominant Ideal, you want that on either Energy or Creation. This will let you stack your metapsionics, which is normally a pain for manifesters to do. Add in some ML boosters like (Overchannel or an orange ioun stone) and PP reducers (like a Torc of Power Preservation) and you'll be able to pull off some truly painful combinations, like Enlarged Twinned Energy Push linked to Dimension Door to keep monsters far away.

For Mantle Substitution, the most obvious benefit is dropping turkey or iffy powers from a mantle. The slightly less obvious benefit is filling every mantle out up to 10 powers, for instance throwing some of the crystal shard line into Creation to give you more blasting options and getting it up to 9 powers; or adding Reality Revision to Deception to fit with Bend Reality.