Magic & Guns, Oh Dear

[pegase]

(There's already a thread on another forum, the official Wizards one, discussing this. However, it's such a cool idea that I feel like bringing it up here. If one has already been made here, my apologies, I must have failed my computer use check.)

So here's the idea with a little more exposition by me. The city of Sharn in Eberron comes under the rule of some evil wizard 30. Immediately, before taking any other political action, the said wizard 30 mobilizes his newly gained army to prepare for an invasion. Why? He's planning to open a portal to our modern world and conquer it.

None of the previous really matters, because here's the important part. Let's say one of the fictional extant empires in D&D lore discovers our modern world and decides to conquer it. Here are the rules.

i. It really is our modern world, not the d20 modern world. That is, in our plane of existence there is no actual magic or psionics; we only have the science and technology we know today. However, we will use d20's stats for things that do actually exist in our world, with the exception of a few items that really should be re-statted.

ii. The D&D fantasy empire can still use their magic, both arcane and divine, within our world.

iii. No chain-gating solars. Everyone within this little mental game will be like published epic level NPCs--stupidly unoptimized. They are, however, smart in-character.

iv. The magical empire's goal is world domination (our world, naturally). Our modern world's goal is more or less how we'd react to this threat.

v. Yeah, yeah, "science is the empirical study of the world, so if magic exists, it is technically a science". I get it. But to avoid confusion, I'm going to label the two terms separately.

vi. Oh, I'm going to add this one to avoid conflict. Neither our modern world nor the magical invasion force has done any scouting. Our modern world is completely unaware of this threat--completely. The magical world knows only that the modern world exists, nothing more, and hastily opens their permanent invasion portal in the middle of New York city (in the middle of Grand Central for the Hollywood effect).

Now, for my input. I think it's pretty much guaranteed that modern weaponry, artillery, air superiority, and naval superiority will crush an invasion force based on swords and shields, so obviously spellcasters will be the focus for our magical invasion force. However, what's the likelihood of there being any significantly powerful spellcasters in every regiment?

[big teej]

it's all going to come down to the casters, op or not.

the strongest soldier in the heaviest armor can be decimated by standard issue ammunition.

full plate fell out of favor due to the invention of The Lead Ball.

we have... surpassed, that technology, perhaps by a thousandfold.

so leaving the idea of every last soldier having magic armor aside. the average troopers will simply lose en masse.

in a more humerous take on it. as far as pop culture is concerned, the amount if incoming fire generated by the streets of New york alone would make a nice speed bump.

moving back onto the serious side of things. once you factor in tanks, artillery, etc. you've essentially nullified the 'mundane' part of the invasion.

bringing us back around to the casters, as I originally stated.

how many high level casters can one really expect?

how would Wish interact with the world on such a scale?

if the Modern world's capability to make war were to unite as a single fighting entity. I feel the invasion would be crushed.

EDIT:
in all honesty though, for a true discussion to be held, I believe we need far more precise parameters for the occaision

[Big Fau]

There's just a few problems: Knowledge. That 30th level Wizard is nigh invulnerable; even nuclear warheads wouldn't be able to kill him. He's a super-genius by our standards, and is a walking army.



We physically have no means of killing an Epic-level Wizard.

[Andmcmuffin2]

I half-wonder how Warforged would deal with the invasion. They don't have vitals identical to humans, and the Juggernaut PrC is hardly alive at all. While yes, plate armor fell out of favor with the advent of the longbow, there were still sacks of flesh that the armor had to protect. Constructs, animated objects, and other nonstandard combatants would be another way to bolster the mages' side.

[Turion]

I half-wonder how Warforged would deal with the invasion. They don't have vitals identical to humans, and the Juggernaut PrC is hardly alive at all. While yes, plate armor fell out of favor with the advent of the longbow, there were still sacks of flesh that the armor had to protect. Constructs, animated objects, and other nonstandard combatants would be another way to bolster the mages' side.

Yeah... I just can't see a Warforged standing up to a tank.

[oball]

The invaders from the D&D world have one major advantage: until their hit points drop to zero, they are still fully functional. A soldier from Earth who gets scorched by a fireball but not outright killed is still going to have major burns, but if a wizard gets a round of 5.56mm in the gut that doesn't kill him, he can still run, cast, whatever. Also, he can just drink a healing potion and be right as rain, whereas our burned soldier is going to need months in hospital and physical rehab.

[pegase]

how many high level casters can one really expect?

I believe in the D&D world, the average spellcaster has like 3 class levels, a moderately high officer has like 6-7, a legendary war hero would have like 12-15, and like only one or two per city is 17 or above (much less that level 30 wizard). For this reason, I'm just going to restat our hypothetical wizard 30 as a wizard 17.

However, in the modern d20 world, the average Joe has like, what, 2 class levels, and a professional will have like 5. Someone legendary will have 7 or above. To make up for this, though, most of our weapons should go right through the warrior's AC.

Because of things like this, I'm going to rule that common sense trumps stats where d20 modern is concerned.

[Godskook]

Yeah... I just can't see a Warforged standing up to a tank.

Can you see a warforged sticking the landing as he drops from an Airplane, getting up to terminal velocity? Cause with class levels, he can(he can even make the fort save from Massive damage too).

The question really comes down to what the casters have as resources and how quickly they adapt to a sniper-filled battlefield versus how quickly the modern world adapts to a wizard filled command post. The more spells like cloudkill, greater invisibility, wish(oh gawd), shapechange, timestop, teleport, dimension step, summon x, and similar are available, the worse and worse things get for the modern world. Let alone the horrible stuff like mind jar and astral projection.

[Big Fau]

Yeah... I just can't see a Warforged standing up to a tank.

Have you ever watched Iron Man? Or Robocop? Not quite the same as a Warforged (you know, what with being human or partially human), but a Warforged character can stand up to a tank.


Or just watch Mythbusters.

[Zonugal]

I think regarding our more modern world it might be useful to set benchmarks for our citizens and troops.

Average Joe: 1st level
Expert Citizen (Doctors for example): 2nd level
Standard Do-Gooders (Detectives for example): 3rd level
World Experts/Action Heroes (Characters like House, Sherlock or John McClane): 4th level
Superb Individuals (Special Forces operatives): 6th level

[RaggedAngel]

Hm. Would Protection from Arrows stop a bullet? Because we almost entirely rely on bullets and other small ranged projectiles when dealing with individuals, and if a single low-level spell could stop a swarm of them it would be a big boost to the DnD side of things.

That said, missiles would still be viable; Resist Energy wouldn't block the shrapnel, and wizards have low reflex saves. Stoneskin can get expensive if every single wizard has to cast it every time they enter combat, and if they're using all of the aformentioned protective buffs they'll have little left behind for real combat.

And then there's the big factor: Us. If that archmage did indeed open up a rift to our world, it would mean that magic is now possible in our world. Tell me, which of us has not dreamed and hoped and, perhaps, even attempted to cast a spell? What would you do if you learned that it was now a real, viable possiblity? Even if we didn't have the know-how to become wizards, sorcerer's would begin popping up all over the place.

[Big Fau]

Hm. Would Protection from Arrows stop a bullet? Because we almost entirely rely on bullets and other small ranged projectiles when dealing with individuals, and if a single low-level spell could stop a swarm of them it would be a big boost to the DnD side of things.

That said, missiles would still be viable; Resist Energy wouldn't block the shrapnel, and wizards have low reflex saves. Stoneskin can get expensive if every single wizard has to cast it every time they enter combat, and if they're using all of the aformentioned protective buffs they'll have little left behind for real combat.

Those are low-level spells (and there's a free version of Stoneskin in CM anyway), not the game-breaking mid-level or high-level spells the Wizard in question is capable of. And a 30th level Wizard doesn't run out of spells anywhere near as fast as WotC would like you to think.

For the record, a 30th level Wizard is capable of casting Familicide several times per day. That spell is the tip of the iceberg by comparison to what other spells he is capable of. We are talking being capable of stopping time, leveling cities (or creating a Wight Apocalypse), or mentally dominating entire squadrons of soldiers.

PS: There is a reason I'm focusing on the head wizard here. HE DOESN'T NEED AN ARMY TO DO THIS.

[pegase]

PS: There is a reason I'm focusing on the head wizard here. HE DOESN'T NEED AN ARMY TO DO THIS.


I believe in the D&D world, the average spellcaster has like 3 class levels, a moderately high officer has like 6-7, a legendary war hero would have like 12-15, and like only one or two per city is 17 or above (much less that level 30 wizard). For this reason, I'm just going to restat our hypothetical wizard 30 as a wizard 17.

I realized you had a point earlier on, so I reset our nigh-invincible wizard. :3

[SlashRunner]

The question is, exactly how much damage does a bullet do?
Here's my extremely rough and likely flawed reasoning.
Let's assume that the average human is 1st level, has a d8 hit dice (the average human being today has AT LEAST the standard of living of a D&D aristocrat (assuming that the human in question is from a developed country)), and has 10 CON. This would mean that the average human has 8 HP.
We all know that being shot often results in death. You don't need a particularly lucky shot to kill someone. Therefore, a gun should be able to deal at least 18 points of damage on an ordinary hit. Assuming that this kind of insta-kill happens anywhere between 50%-75% of the time when being shot (my numbers might be ridiculously off, I'm not much of a gun enthusiast at all, and I certainly have no experience in being shot), a gunshot should be dealing, on average, 6d6-12d6 (inform me of any math fails pl0x, I'm sort of tired and bad at this kind of arithmetic) damage.
This means that, for a level 17 Wizard, assuming a CON if 10 and no health-boosting magic items or other crap, it should take 1-2 hits on average to kill him.
I am aware that I probably just made myself look really stupid, but I'm tired, so bear with me.

[kardar233]

Mmmm, that sounds right. However, I think you're slightly overestimating; getting shot unless it's in an immediately vital organ (heart, brain) will probably just incapacitate you and make you prone to bleeding out. You just need to put them into negatives, not straight-out kill.

[Godskook]

You're overestimating the needed damage to be potential lethal in 1 shot. Without more effort(and effectively, either a called shot, Coup de grace, or a SA), a single shot from a gun isn't likely to kill outright, but is probably lethal without attention. This means that on average, bullets do somewhere between 8 and 18 damage. Obviously, some people survive gunshot wounds without requiring medical assistance(though it helps) while others are instantly killed. This means our min and max are actually at least 7/19 with an average of <18. 3d8 provides a suitable range, and the average is 13.5, which is right in that bleeding out stage that we'd expect from taking a bullet. I'd expect that guns deal about 3d8 damage. An average high level wizard still couldn't tank many of them directly, but he could take a couple of stray shots without dying.

[Coidzor]

Divination Spells tell the properly paranoid wizard everything he needs to know, access to the internet and libraries fills in the rest of the gaps.

Owns every major world leader in a fortnight.

Problem invasion plans?

We've already done this thread here like twice before, I believe, before the forum split off into the 3.X/d20 subforum.

Trying to remember the name of the last incarnation of the thread....


There's just a few problems: Knowledge. That 30th level Wizard is nigh invulnerable; even nuclear warheads wouldn't be able to kill him. He's a super-genius by our standards, and is a walking army.



We physically have no means of killing an Epic-level Wizard.

Of course not, he's Astrally Projecting, the best we could do would be make him go away for a little while if he was feeling lazy.

[pegase]

Well, let's start from the beginning. At 12:00PM in New York City, a giant portal opens up underground in Grand Central. The initial invasion force, a battalion of 500 under the command of a figher4/wizard6 (in true style of D&D NPC unoptimized classing) pops out of the initial gate before it closes (because our restatted wizard 17 only has one 9th level spell slot to cast gate with), allowing a maximum of at most 500 soldiers to march through (if done quickly).

Most soldiers are fighter 2-3s. The group has 50 tier 1-2 classes at levels 5-6, 150 tier 3-4 classes at levels 5-6, and the rest (300) are tier 3-6s at level 2-3. They rampage through Grand Central methodically with ease, keeping in mind that they'll have to wait a whole day before backup (so their spellcasters conserve a few spells).

Man, New York must be reeling in shock. First, how quickly can this army wipe out the civilians in Grand Central and how can they secure it? How will NYC and the U.S. react, and how quickly can they win back (if possible) Grand Central?

[SlashRunner]

Also, remember that said 17th level wizard, not factoring in intelligence bonuses, can only cast 1 9th level spell per day. Knowing how terribly optimized most D&D NPC's are, the said spell would probably be Meteor Swarm or something like that. Even if we assume they use something good like Shapechange, they'll only be able to rampage around in shapechanged form for 2 hours and 50 minutes.

[Kantolin]

moving back onto the serious side of things. once you factor in tanks, artillery, etc. you've essentially nullified the 'mundane' part of the invasion.\

Why does everyone always assume this? Sufficiently high level characters can soak dragons or demiplanes or castles falling on them while naked. The epic level fighter can wade through an army pretty well if he wants to. None of the enemies will hit him on anything other than a natural 20. He could have adamantine or some other damage-reduction causing armour/ability.

Epic-wizard is clearly better yes, but I don't see why one must auto-assume that meteor swarm is dramatically weaker than a rifle.

And this excludes anyone-with-a-starmantle-cloak who is immune to tanks ramming them, or things like that.

[Hida Reju]

Divination Spells tell the properly paranoid wizard everything he needs to know, access to the internet and libraries fills in the rest of the gaps.

Owns every major world leader in a fortnight.

Problem invasion plans?

We've already done this thread here like twice before, I believe, before the forum split off into the 3.X/d20 subforum.

Trying to remember the name of the last incarnation of the thread....



Of course not, he's Astrally Projecting, the best we could do would be make him go away for a little while if he was feeling lazy.

Wizards do not die they just become metaphysically inconvenienced.

[Zonugal]

You're overestimating the needed damage to be potential lethal in 1 shot. Without more effort(and effectively, either a called shot, Coup de grace, or a SA), a single shot from a gun isn't likely to kill outright, but is probably lethal without attention. This means that on average, bullets do somewhere between 8 and 18 damage. Obviously, some people survive gunshot wounds without requiring medical assistance(though it helps) while others are instantly killed. This means our min and max are actually at least 7/19 with an average of <18. 3d8 provides a suitable range, and the average is 13.5, which is right in that bleeding out stage that we'd expect from taking a bullet. I'd expect that guns deal about 3d8 damage. An average high level wizard still couldn't tank many of them directly, but he could take a couple of stray shots without dying.

We could always look towards the Dungeon Masters Guide for it's approximation of modern weaponry. It places most firearms around 2d4 to 2d6 and actually the laser rifle from the future section comes in at a whopping 3d6.

But with that said I like your model much more as I feel a gun shot should carry some significant weight within D&D.


Well, let's start from the beginning. At 12:00PM in New York City, a giant portal opens up underground in Grand Central. The initial invasion force, a battalion of 500 under the command of a figher4/wizard6 (in true style of D&D NPC unoptimized classing) pops out of the initial gate before it closes (because our restatted wizard 17 only has one 9th level spell slot to cast gate with), allowing a maximum of at most 500 soldiers to march through (if done quickly).

Most soldiers are fighter 2-3s. The group has 50 tier 1-2 classes at levels 5-6, 150 tier 3-4 classes at levels 5-6, and the rest (300) are tier 3-6s at level 2-3. They rampage through Grand Central methodically with ease, keeping in mind that they'll have to wait a whole day before backup (so their spellcasters conserve a few spells).

Man, New York must be reeling in shock. First, how quickly can this army wipe out the civilians in Grand Central and how can they secure it? How will NYC and the U.S. react, and how quickly can they win back (if possible) Grand Central?

Well, this is New York so we have to play to the city's strengths. Lets see what that 500 would have to go up against.


There are approximately 35,000 (thirty five thousand) New York City police officers. According to Wikipedia, the exact count as of 2009 was 35,284 (thirty five thousand, two hundred and eighty-four). The approximate count according to the NYPD's official website is 34,500 (thirty four thousand, five hundred).

There are around 15,870 (as of 12/31/10) firemen within New York City

And those numbers aren't even factoring in the dedicated New York National Guard. I mean if we want to continue getting crazy with numbers we have to look towards members from the Arm (Buffalo New York's dedicated mafia family) and it gets really bad if we factor in the Five Families (New York's five dedicated mafia families).

This isn't even contemplating other martial-based occupations like the local US Marshals, FBI or even how many ordinary citizens carry firearms on their person.

I'd say the 500 are really outmatched...

[pegase]

Or, a more detailed take on what I described earlier.

New York City, New York, United States - Time July 12, 2011

12:00 PM - In the underground terminals of Grand Central, the air begins to shake. Citizens look around in concern and fright, and the police are suddenly wary, concerned about a possible terrorist attack. Instead, light surges through the air, and jets of fire streak through the terminals, exploding, and killing everything immediately. After having completed their first volley, the preliminary magical invasion force drops out of this conjured gate, lead by their commander, a fighter4/wizard6.

12:15 PM - Having heard the explosions and commotion from within the underground terminal, the authorities at Grand Central initiate emergency procedure (assuming a terrorist action) by electronically closing all the gates within the building. Simultaneously, all arriving subways are redirected. I think this reaction can happen fairly quickly, since most of it is automated.

12:20 PM - The magical invasion force marvels at the weird underground structure for a short while, before several electronically-controlled gates suddenly slide shut. With a mighty heave, their warriors bash right through these gates, and the force of 500 is split into many squads to scour the underground corridors. They all have the sending spell and various magic rods to facilitate distant communication. They quickly execute anyone caught in their path. Police officers and the like scamper at the sight of large group. It takes half an hour to conduct these actions, because of the planning required for such a large group, and also because of the unfamiliarity with everything.

12:50 PM - The entire underground section of Grand Central is under the invasion force's control, but the entrance pathways to the main floor and up have been sealed off by the quickly responding SWAT team stationed nearby (with a warning time of half-an-hour, they would definitely be there by then; however, they don't know what they're dealing with). But the SWAT can't really do **** against a few well-placed fireballs, and the entire frontal squad is decimated. However, the magical invasion force gets their first taste of guns, as several of their warriors attempted to charge the gun-toting SWAT officers. They are mowed down, before the spellcasters intervene and rape the SWAT.

01:20 PM - The police are getting sketchy reports of Grand Central. They know there's some kind of terrorist holdout going down inside of it, and whoever is in control now commands the main floor, the second and third floors, and are working their way up the building. They know that the hostile forces have explosives on their side (fireballs, AoE spells, and etc.), but don't actually know much else, since the SWAT teams they send in die in seconds (far too quickly to send back a coherent situation report). Having lost a good fifty officers, and a ton more civilians, NYC responds harshly. They cordon off Grand Central and surround it with police roadblocks, SWAT tents and cars, and hundreds of heavily armed law-enforcement officers. Helicopters begin to take off to surround the building. They're trying to mobilize the heavier forces--i.e., the National Guard--and are sending in a covert ops team through the subway tunnels to get some coherent idea of what's going on in the station.

Lol, I'm enjoying this. But yeah, it's not like the modern world is completely screwed or anything (not now that I set the wizards level to be 17, more in-line with canon).

[Terazul]

...Nah I'd safely say the modern world is pretty screwed.

Sit around and Commune/Scry/What Have You for awhile to get a feel/information you need. Alternatively make some Knowledge (Local) checks. Find out who's in charge!

Aaaaaand Mindrape.

Alternatively they manage to kill the wizard but it's actually a Simulacrum of his Astral Projected Clone's Astral Projected Clone.

[Big Fau]

Lol, I'm enjoying this. But yeah, it's not like the modern world is completely screwed or anything (not now that I set the wizards level to be 17, more in-line with canon).

FYI: A 10th level Wizard can conquer Khorvaire, with one or two exceptions (Thrane being the biggest one, seeing as they have the Lolipope).

A 17th level Wizard can conquer Earth. Not a DnD setting, the real effing world. And there's nothing we can do to stop him until someone in our world learns how to cast spells to challenge him.

[Zonugal]

I honestly see no way the magical forces (not the high-level wizard) wins, ever in this type of situation. I also feel to a degree that in the example you displayed a some-what base level incompetence from the police/national guard in their response to the situation.

[pegase]

A few notes.

Arcane lock most definitely would've been applied to every entry and exit portal to Grand Central, baffling the law enforcement as to why they can't enter. (Not that they are planning to before their covert ops team tells them what's going on inside, though, since it seems extremely dangerous.) The covert ops team is still mobilizing, and there's no way in hell the national guard is even prepared yet, since only an hour has elapsed since the original attack.

Magic missiles and fireballs streak from the windows, killing the officers and destroying the tents set too close to the building. As a result, the ground forces move back really far from Grand Central's base. Return fire from marksmen and whatnot probably nailed a few spellcasters and archers. The magical invasion force is familiarizing themselves with the gun, given that they have so many from their victims; however, NYC still has no goddamn clue what's going on.

Making an intelligence check of 15 (for each wizard in the group) could probably identify the function of the gun after a few trials in testing while in Grand Central. So now the magical invasion force has some idea of what they're dealing with, although the snipers still catch them off-guard. Eventually, enough people die at the windows that they also order people to stay away from them.

[Zonugal]

Making an intelligence check of 15 (for each wizard in the group) could probably identify the function of the gun after a few trials in testing while in Grand Central. So now the magical invasion force has some idea of what they're dealing with, although the snipers still catch them off-guard. Eventually, enough people die at the windows that they also order people to stay away from them.

They don't need to make the intelligence check of 15, they just need a handy 2nd-level spell... (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20001101a)

[Feriority]

Or, a more detailed take on what I described earlier.

<snipped timeline>

I disagree with the idea that our wizard attacker is going to charge in with an army without scouting first. Assuming they have the ability to replicate crossing between the worlds, rather than the gate being a one-time thing, the wizard would come through and spend a while learning how our world works. It wouldn't take very much illusion and enchantment to get access to basically anything a wizard that high level wants; once prepared accordingly, the wizard will be able to lead a much more effective attack than just dropping their entire force into New York City.

[pegase]

also feel to a degree that in the example you displayed a some-what base level incompetence from the police/national guard in their response to the situation.

Well, let's see what the police would do. Hear explosion in Grand Central? SWAT, surround, try to verify situations. Limit terrorist movement as much as possible. That is, the officers could easily secure an immediate handle on the main floor assuming that the invasion force is still underground.

Usually, this standoff leads to a stalemate, as well-protected corridors and SWAT-blocked entrances usually end up with the losing side as the one who jumps into gun sights first. In our modern world, we're not okay with the idea of losing people, and assume that our enemies are too (not even Al-Qaeda throws their lives away with the degree of regularity afforded by medieval armies). So SWAT feels secure blocking these entrances.

Instead, fighters as meatshields charge at the SWAT, and eventually the SWAT open fire mowing down the fighters. But out of the midst of bullets comes multiple fireballs, each dealing ~3d6 damage AoE. Since most SWAT have 2 HD (probably d8s or d10s), this kills them almost instantly. Suddenly, it's not secure for the SWAT to hold-off corridors anymore, since the enemy doesn't mind using themselves as meatshields. Also, there are a lot of enemies--around 500 or so, yes? And within a day, there'll be another 500 since gate works 1/8 hours.

However, they don't quite grasp this, since it deviates so far from what they normally do, and only assume that the enemies are in command of explosives. Because of this, while many fighters died, I guarantee that the army has no trouble mowing down indoor resistance before any of them could return sitreps.


----EDIT----


I disagree with the idea that our wizard attacker is going to charge in with an army without scouting first. Assuming they have the ability to replicate crossing between the worlds, rather than the gate being a one-time thing, the wizard would come through and spend a while learning how our world works. It wouldn't take very much illusion and enchantment to get access to basically anything a wizard that high level wants; once prepared accordingly, the wizard will be able to lead a much more effective attack than just dropping their entire force into New York City.

Agreed, but I had initially decided to assume that the wizard doesn't scout, since this raises the question of why he doesn't just scry & fry every single world leader before assuming their positions instead of opening their attack in a Hollywood-esque scene.

I just want to see modern military vs. magical military, that's all.

[The Random NPC]

I would say the sneakier the magical forces are, the less chance the science forces have. Imagine a wizard or sorcerer with nothing more then Dominate Person, he gets "captured" and slowly takes over key people in the defense. Any irregular behaviours would most likely be brushed off as PTSD, until the big betrayal. Paranoia would wreak havoc with any future teams, until the symptoms of Dominate Person are identified. But then they start pulling out the big guns, i.e. Mind Rape.

[Talentless]

Interesting. Overall however, I personally believe this more revolves around the debate with the really overpowered Wizard spells that are available than anything else.

At what range does celerity or other divination spells actually cease to consider a combatant, I'm assuming that it is plane wide due to sufficiently paranoid Wizards.

However, moving beyond the ability to detect a Sniper as they are firing their shot, we get into relative face offs between which arrives first, a supersonic bullet traveling faster than the speed of sound, or an immediate action? I know that by Dungeons and Dragons rules, immediate actions are just that, immediate. However, by the RAW a round is a 6 second block where all the actions are happening semi-simultaneously, with the lower initiatives representing those with weaker reaction times.

Does an immediate spell cast count as right this moment? Assuming it does, we have to see which spells might be prepared in such a situation.

Time Stop: Nothing can be done, the Wizard can step out of the bullet's path and perform other actions during this time period.

Greater Teleport: Get out of jail free card, also avoids the bullet.

Any shielding spell(I know, unlikely, but it's there): Then we get into how effective said spells would be against supersonic armorpiercing rounds built to punch holes in tanks.


Even accounting for all the other interpretations, we still have to consider how the detection spells work. Would they work the same if the Wizard had no clue that said sniper was even a threat? Or that he was capable of attacking from a half-mile away? RAW they do, however, this is where interpretation comes in, by the time a Wizard gets those spells, they can reasonably infer all threats they could come across due to their breadth of experience and access to a Library.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that, no matter how paranoid, no Wizard would prepare for threats that seem outlandish/impossible to them? How could you prepare for something you have no idea about? Being paranoid can't cover what you don't know is possible beyond a certain point.

You can be paranoid as all hell, but if you don't know about a weapon capable of flinging chunks of metal at supersonic speeds with great accuracy from distances of up to a half-mile away, could you prepare for a contingency that you would never face in normal Dungeons and Dragons universe?

I'm sure there are plenty here who would argue based upon the spells as written that yes, a sufficiently high leveled Wizard would be able to walk through all of the Modern World's tech, but I personally think it isn't meant to be quite so easy.

Also, as a final note, there should be clarification upon this point. Since we haven't had Magic in our universe before, and went with the Science route instead, why is it A)suddenly possible now, is it because of the breach into the other dimension? and B) How does Magic and Science interact? Do they screw with each other?

Because if Magic fields worked over radar/other tech devices, and Science based weapons punched holes in magic defenses, this entire fight just got blown wide open.

TLDR: RAW vs RAI. With a clarification question. God... this is a long rant:smalleek:

[Zonugal]

Instead, fighters as meatshields charge at the SWAT, and eventually the SWAT open fire mowing down the fighters. But out of the midst of bullets comes multiple fireballs, each dealing ~3d6 damage AoE. Since most SWAT have 2 HD (probably d8s or d10s), this kills them almost instantly. Suddenly, it's not secure for the SWAT to hold-off corridors anymore, since the enemy doesn't mind using themselves as meatshields. Also, there are a lot of enemies--around 500 or so, yes? And within a day, there'll be another 500 since gate works 1/8 hours.

Wouldn't a fireball spell be doing around 6d6 damage to everyone in the 20ft radius?

But beyond the terror that is a barrage of fireballs, what do you think the impact of grenades would have on the magical forces?

[marcielle]

Once the wizards realise that we don't HAVE any significant magic (a horde of level 1 sorcs who don't even understand their own powers yet don't count) they will win.
10 wizards in a secluded location summoning and then letting loose( no need to control them once they are out of range) incorporeal creatures.WE HAVE NO WAY TO HIT THEM. Consider that a NUKE will do 0 damage to a ghost because it is simply NOT a magical weapon. Not to mention undead aren't even affected by the radiation that would ensue

Locate city bomb. Level 30 wiz can take entire cities themselves. Average human today is equivalent to a level 1 commoner. Proof:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198752
Hell, considering our cushy lifestyle vs their 'everyday is a fight for survival, we might as well all be level 0.

Greater invis and flight. 1 wizard flies across battlefield (below airplanes and above ground explosions) and cast chain lightning/fireballs at command centre. Our military is completely lacking in heroes. Once the chain of comand is gone a whole army is suddenly milling around doing nothing but holding position till they find out who get to take over.

The thing is their armies WILL just be a distraction to keep our fire off their wizards and even sorcs. Who will essentially be the ones who win the war.

Let us not forget our respective WORLDS. Consider that their leaders are there because of force of personality or personal power as opposed to ours who are in power only beacuse corruption, bribing/ bullying their own armies or democracy. Their leaders ARE likely to be smarter and stronger than most while ours are common people whose only virtues are they are good at politics(sometimes not even that). With few wars(compared to the number a DnD general would theoretically have fought) and tons of paperwork. Our generals would be ineffective to the point they might as well have put any old soldier up there whereas thiers would have to be cunning and incredibly flexible to even SURVIVE.

Also, magic missile vs jets. What will happen?

[Zombimode]

I think, all those considerations about how D&D armies would fare against modern armies, or how certain spells would work in those situations. There is really no contest. If humanity has one thing perfected by the 21st century its the art of destroying and killing. It would take a huge amount of magic to enable a D&D army to stand up against the smallest modern state. So much magic infact, that one has to aks if those spell slots couldnt put into service better than this.

I would even dare to say, that this level 30 wizard could take over the world all by himself. Not through chaingating things or other munchkinisms. He just has the one kind of force readily at his disposal that no one on earth (modern or historic) has any kind of defense against: magic.

Nothing can protect against echantments (suggestions, charms, dominations etc.), illusions, teleportation, or even gaseous form.
It boils down to what he actually wants from the world.

Depending on if D&D was invented in this modern world (which could lead to an awkward scene like in the first The Gamers movie), he could even Goa'Uld the world.

What he needs is not an army, but other spellcasters, and maybe some small but strong task forces (adventures or something).

[Ravens_cry]

It's common to put guns in the hands of dwarves or humans in fantasy settings that have them, but what about halflings? They are smaller and physically weaker then other races, a weapon that plays to their strengths, like a gun, would be perfect for them.

[Halae]

I think many of us are forgetting something about this whole deal - Converts. Assuming this invasion takes a while, people from our world are going to be absolutely flocking to the magic side to join them, if nothing else than for the chance to learn magic. We can bring knowledge about how to work technology, and in many cases information about all the research we've done into the universe and the world around us, including human beings. While that might not be a big help to the war-effort, that's a whole lot of people that want to become level 1 wizards or sorcerers or warlocks or whatever, and that means that, if the people are willing to fight to become magical, the mundanes lose the advantage of numbers.

How do I know this? It's what I'd do. I'm a smart person - I think I could understand a few first level spells if given some time and instruction, maybe even all the way up to fifth level if I get that high in level (At which point, of course, I'll be dumping more stats into intelligence). So why shouldn't I go for magic? Why shouldn't I try to get something I've wanted my entire life? And so many people are going to feel that.

[Doug Lampert]

While yes, plate armor fell out of favor with the advent of the longbow,

That's odd. The longbow PREDATES plate armor, it was a common weapon when chain was the best available. War of the Roses era tapestries show longbowmen as WEARING plate armor, and the longbow fell out of favor within a generation of that time. Meanwhile the no longer longbow armed English pirates attacking Spanish shipping and towns had a signigicant advantage in their superior plate armor they were still using after the longbow was abandoned.

In other words, it would be more accurate to say that the longbow fell out of favor with the advent of good plate armor cheap enough for soldiers to actually afford it.

English Civil war cavalry carried four or five guns each, and wore plate and the shock charge was their standard tactic because they couldn't kill each other reliably even with all those guns.

Plate armor for cavalry didn't go out till after the Napolionic Wars. And modern balistic protection (which is back in for the military this decade) isn't actually all that much better at stopping bullets than plates of metal (it is lighter, which is a significant military advantage when your OTHER gear weighs 50 or so pounds).

DougL

[Doug Lampert]

The question is, exactly how much damage does a bullet do?
Here's my extremely rough and likely flawed reasoning.
Let's assume that the average human is 1st level, has a d8 hit dice (the average human being today has AT LEAST the standard of living of a D&D aristocrat (assuming that the human in question is from a developed country)), and has 10 CON. This would mean that the average human has 8 HP.

4, average people are not elite and don't get max at level 1.

Nor is a typical bullet from a handgun fatal or even immediately disabling.

1d6 is adequate damage if we assume level 1 aristocrat targets.

DougL

[Talya]

If the wizard has half-a-brain (and come on, he's a wizard), he wins this without anyone ever firing a shot.

Ironically, one of the weakest possible specialist wizards would have the easiest time dealing with a world-takeover: The Focused Specialist Enchanter.


Enchantment spells would be the end of us. We have no defenses, and no way to even know they are being used. Combat? Combat is dumb. Force against force - we may not get magic, but we understand when things go boom. No, mind affecting spells win this war.

[Almagesto]

This is how I see it:


10:00 a giant rift between the two dimensions opens in Central Park.
10:01 you already have 800 pictures of the portal, courtesy of NYC's oblivious citizens and visitors, roaming the internet and - pending on the size of the gate - you can have as much as 10,000 infantrymen already marching through the portal into our dimension.
10:05 after the first decade of murders occur thousands of calls to 911 have been made and the police are arriving at the scene in their squad cars.
10:15 the casualties inflicted by the police on the army now roaming through center Manhattan are naught compared to the size of the invasion force, that has now been reinforced with another division of infantrymen and one of cavalry. President Williams is notified of an attack on US soil on behalf of foreign forces - suspicion is immediately drawn to Russia.
10:17 in Russia, President Chernienko mobilizes his troops in response to the attack on American soil, fearing the same faith for his country.
10:18 informs of Russian forces mobilizing are delivered to president Williams. The National Security Council is convened to an emergency meeting at the White House. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff proposes the hypothesis that the whole invasion is really an attack by Russian forces and expresses his desires to retaliate using nuclear warheads on strategic locations to President Williams. Many in the cabinet are doubtful but some support this idea.
10:27 Special Forces are arriving at the scene, and the air force has already scrambled jets that are awaiting orders whilst flying over Manhattan - what they are describing to command seems insane. Jack Ryan, working at the CIA, discovers a way to decode the language of the foreign invaders using Shor's algorithm on the stream of vocal sounds recorded by some of the bystanders. Meanwhile, a shock team composed of mid-level clerics and dread necromancers has arrived at the scene and is raising both side's casualties that join the wizard's army and immediately scare the bejesus out of the remaining citizens in the area.
10:35 President Chernienko's staff finds no information regarding the attack on America. Senior member of the party, Dimitri Akemaiev, suggests this is the moment to strike on Russia's strongest enemy. Presidential advisor Harkov counsels President Chernienko to be patient and to deny any involving in the attack.
10:40 after a long deliberation, and realizing - through high-level moles in the White House - that the United States plan on attacking Russia, President Chernienko cuts all forms of communication with America and gives instructions to initiate the procedures to launch nuclear missiles to key cities in the USS.
10:45 the Army has barricaded the roads to and from the Manhattan and the Coast Guard has a blockade in position. Scenes from the mayhem are viewed all around the world via fast streaming video on the web. A third wave of infantrymen crosses the portal along with two more divisions of cavalry. High-level casters arrive in low numbers flying on dragons and start attacking the F-22s.
10:50 Jack realizes the wizard didn't really wanted to attack and that it was all part of a secret neo-nazi plot to make both our worlds fight to the death, allowing a group of German business men to control the world. Jack discovers the neo-nazis have a secret base in Orenburg, Russia. Jack alerts his buddy John MacTavish, who immediately – and without questioning – gets Task Force 141 on the move towards Orenburg. Denton Van Zan asks his boss at Kentucky to allow him and a small number of Special Forces guys to go to NYC to fight the dragons. When he is denied permission to go he and his group rebuild a National Guard C-5A and fly it 653 miles on two engines to NYC.
11:00 the casualties inflicted on the wizard's army by the armored division and the special forces are numerous, but the speed at which the animated foes spawn is far too great and most of the rangers are quickly decimated. The clerics and dread necromancers now focus on awakening the green berets in order to allow them to fight using modern weaponry by their side.
11:12 the Joint Chief of Staff has convinced everyone on the National Security Council that a preemptive attack on Russia is the best course of action. Having Experience with zombies, Jill Valentine heads to NYC; on the way she phones her buddies Rick and Evy O’Connell.
11:23 the guy with the suitcase handcuffed to his arm opens it and starts reading the codes to a nondescript USSTRATCOM operator. Somehow, Jack knows time is running out. Upon arrival to NYC, Jill and Rick start decimating the undead population one headshot at a time, while Evy and her kid quickly make decipher script rolls to cast a Wish spell from one of the wizard’s henchmen’s spellbook.
11:34 a Russian nuclear ICBM missile is fired from a base in Orenburg, the estimated casualties number in the millions. President Chernienko angrily questions who gave the order for said missile to be fired, but no one seems to know. The Joint Chief of Staff considers this a proof for his theory. The Kentucky Irregulars, as Denton’s been calling his crew of rogue green berets arrive on the scene and start hacking dragons using high-tech sonar systems and axes.
11:46 Jack discovers that the missile fired from Orenburg was launched by the neo-nazi conspirators and that they are the only ones with the codes needed to abort them. The wizard finally appears in the flesh upon the streets of Manhattan, his personal guard includes ten 15th level blackguards in full plate, a lich, and a half-dragon troll.
12:06 The Russians try to contact the Americans, but after the missile is fired this is considered a ruse by the National Security Council. The Special Forces handle the ten blackguards whilst Jill and Rick fight the lich. On the other side of town, Denton is scouting the ruins for the best way to get near the half-dragon troll.
12:17 Jack calls the Pentagon and convinces a nondescript operator to “not be that guy” and he reroutes his call to the NSC where Jack – without so much as a single objection from any member in the NSC – explains his theory, which is immediately accepted prompting an abort to the launching sequences of the American nuclear ICBM missiles. After getting himself killed by the half-dragon troll, Denton’s sidekick – some guy who really started all the problem by reading the Necronomicon after reading having dreams of a strange thing calling him – kills the half-dragon troll in the lamest of ways.
12:38 Task Force 141 arrives at the neo-nazis secret base in Orenburg and firefight their way to the command post where the codes are kept – clearly labeled in English – and initiate the abort sequence that culminates in the Russian ICBM falling in the ocean without detonation. Everyone at NSC jumps in joy, papers are tossed in the air by a crowd of racially diverse NSC staff. The Russian President and his advisors laugh and hug each other cheerfully. Finally the lich runs out of spells and Jill and Ricky put so much lead in it that the magnetic field around the interplanar rift sucks the lich back into its home plane so hard that even his phylactery (which it was conveniently carrying with it) exploded).
12:40 Evy and the boy finally find out how to cast the wish spell and reverse all the negative effects caused by the wizard.
03:55 People around world sleeps calmly without realizing how much they owe to so few.


End of story.

[pegase]

This is how I see it:


10:00 a giant rift between the two dimensions opens in Central Park.
10:01 you already have 800 pictures of the portal, courtesy of NYC's oblivious citizens and visitors, roaming the internet and - pending on the size of the gate - you can have as much as 10,000 infantrymen already marching through the portal into our dimension.
10:05 after the first decade of murders occur thousands of calls to 911 have been made and the police are arriving at the scene in their squad cars.
10:15 the casualties inflicted by the police on the army now roaming through center Manhattan are naught compared to the size of the invasion force, that has now been reinforced with another division of infantrymen and one of cavalry. President Williams is notified of an attack on US soil on behalf of foreign forces - suspicion is immediately drawn to Russia.
10:17 in Russia, President Chernienko mobilizes his troops in response to the attack on American soil, fearing the same faith for his country.
10:18 informs of Russian forces mobilizing are delivered to president Williams. The National Security Council is convened to an emergency meeting at the White House. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff proposes the hypothesis that the whole invasion is really an attack by Russian forces and expresses his desires to retaliate using nuclear warheads on strategic locations to President Williams. Many in the cabinet are doubtful but some support this idea.
10:27 Special Forces are arriving at the scene, and the air force has already scrambled jets that are awaiting orders whilst flying over Manhattan - what they are describing to command seems insane. Jack Ryan, working at the CIA, discovers a way to decode the language of the foreign invaders using Shor's algorithm on the stream of vocal sounds recorded by some of the bystanders. Meanwhile, a shock team composed of mid-level clerics and dread necromancers has arrived at the scene and is raising both side's casualties that join the wizard's army and immediately scare the bejesus out of the remaining citizens in the area.
10:35 President Chernienko's staff finds no information regarding the attack on America. Senior member of the party, Dimitri Akemaiev, suggests this is the moment to strike on Russia's strongest enemy. Presidential advisor Harkov counsels President Chernienko to be patient and to deny any involving in the attack.
10:40 after a long deliberation, and realizing - through high-level moles in the White House - that the United States plan on attacking Russia, President Chernienko cuts all forms of communication with America and gives instructions to initiate the procedures to launch nuclear missiles to key cities in the USS.
10:45 the Army has barricaded the roads to and from the Manhattan and the Coast Guard has a blockade in position. Scenes from the mayhem are viewed all around the world via fast streaming video on the web. A third wave of infantrymen crosses the portal along with two more divisions of cavalry. High-level casters arrive in low numbers flying on dragons and start attacking the F-22s.
10:50 Jack realizes the wizard didn't really wanted to attack and that it was all part of a secret neo-nazi plot to make both our worlds fight to the death, allowing a group of German business men to control the world. Jack discovers the neo-nazis have a secret base in Orenburg, Russia. Jack alerts his buddy John MacTavish, who immediately – and without questioning – gets Task Force 141 on the move towards Orenburg. Denton Van Zan asks his boss at Kentucky to allow him and a small number of Special Forces guys to go to NYC to fight the dragons. When he is denied permission to go he and his group rebuild a National Guard C-5A and fly it 653 miles on two engines to NYC.
11:00 the casualties inflicted on the wizard's army by the armored division and the special forces are numerous, but the speed at which the animated foes spawn is far too great and most of the rangers are quickly decimated. The clerics and dread necromancers now focus on awakening the green berets in order to allow them to fight using modern weaponry by their side.
11:12 the Joint Chief of Staff has convinced everyone on the National Security Council that a preemptive attack on Russia is the best course of action. Having Experience with zombies, Jill Valentine heads to NYC; on the way she phones her buddies Rick and Evy O’Connell.
11:23 the guy with the suitcase handcuffed to his arm opens it and starts reading the codes to a nondescript USSTRATCOM operator. Somehow, Jack knows time is running out. Upon arrival to NYC, Jill and Rick start decimating the undead population one headshot at a time, while Evy and her kid quickly make decipher script rolls to cast a Wish spell from one of the wizard’s henchmen’s spellbook.
11:34 a Russian nuclear ICBM missile is fired from a base in Orenburg, the estimated casualties number in the millions. President Chernienko angrily questions who gave the order for said missile to be fired, but no one seems to know. The Joint Chief of Staff considers this a proof for his theory. The Kentucky Irregulars, as Denton’s been calling his crew of rogue green berets arrive on the scene and start hacking dragons using high-tech sonar systems and axes.
11:46 Jack discovers that the missile fired from Orenburg was launched by the neo-nazi conspirators and that they are the only ones with the codes needed to abort them. The wizard finally appears in the flesh upon the streets of Manhattan, his personal guard includes ten 15th level blackguards in full plate, a lich, and a half-dragon troll.
12:06 The Russians try to contact the Americans, but after the missile is fired this is considered a ruse by the National Security Council. The Special Forces handle the ten blackguards whilst Jill and Rick fight the lich. On the other side of town, Denton is scouting the ruins for the best way to get near the half-dragon troll.
12:17 Jack calls the Pentagon and convinces a nondescript operator to “not be that guy” and he reroutes his call to the NSC where Jack – without so much as a single objection from any member in the NSC – explains his theory, which is immediately accepted prompting an abort to the launching sequences of the American nuclear ICBM missiles. After getting himself killed by the half-dragon troll, Denton’s sidekick – some guy who really started all the problem by reading the Necronomicon after reading having dreams of a strange thing calling him – kills the half-dragon troll in the lamest of ways.
12:38 Task Force 141 arrives at the neo-nazis secret base in Orenburg and firefight their way to the command post where the codes are kept – clearly labeled in English – and initiate the abort sequence that culminates in the Russian ICBM falling in the ocean without detonation. Everyone at NSC jumps in joy, papers are tossed in the air by a crowd of racially diverse NSC staff. The Russian President and his advisors laugh and hug each other cheerfully. Finally the lich runs out of spells and Jill and Ricky put so much lead in it that the magnetic field around the interplanar rift sucks the lich back into its home plane so hard that even his phylactery (which it was conveniently carrying with it) exploded).
12:40 Evy and the boy finally find out how to cast the wish spell and reverse all the negative effects caused by the wizard.
03:55 People around world sleeps calmly without realizing how much they owe to so few.


End of story.

That's... that's... beautiful.

[Halae]

Almagetso, how could you do such a thing!? There's too much concentrated crazy in that post - You've killed the thread by awesome overdose!

[Hazzardevil]

I think it really depends, frankly it would take about half of all the casters in Faerun working together to just cast create water and flood the world.

[Big Fau]

I think it really depends, frankly it would take about half of all the casters in Faerun working together to just cast create water and flood the world.

Just one if you abuse some Circle Magic.

[Terazul]

I think opening horizontal gates to the Elemental Plane of Water would work better and faster. Or just equip everyone with Decanters of Endless Water. Those pump it out at 30 gallons/round. Create Water would create 34 at CL 17, but the decanter is continuous and doesn't require you to be a caster to boot. And cheap at a paltry 9000 gp!

[Halae]

Just one if you abuse some Circle Magic.

if you properly abuse circle magic, you can nuke a chunk of a country with a single spell. Not the greatest of examples, I think, since we're going for WotC style unoptimized

[Big Fau]

if you properly abuse circle magic, you can nuke a chunk of a country with a single spell. Not the greatest of examples, I think, since we're going for WotC style unoptimized

Well, you can do that with Locate City. Drowning the world just has more style to it. (http://www.zelda.com/gcn/)

[Zonugal]

I think things would get really bad if a Vampire Lord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) found his way through the portal. Control Weather at will would release hurricanes in cities. Telekinesis at will means we'd be something-akin to Magneto and with his ability to convert people into full vampires (not mere spawns) he'd be a particularly tough guy to stop from simple destroying everything in sight.

[Almagesto]

That's... that's... beautiful.


Almagetso, how could you do such a thing!? There's too much concentrated crazy in that post - You've killed the thread by awesome overdose!

Thank you, guys :smallredface: that's what I was aiming at. :smallcool:

[Fable Wright]

Hm... there's still one glaring fact that's missing here: It is the modern world that's being invaded. That means: D&D nerds do exist. Suddenly, we know the exact capabilities of their armies, and how to best combat them. The fantasy world sends trolls at us? D&Ders recognize them, and flamethrowers are soon used to control the threat. Dragons? We know what they can do and how to combat them. We know the elements they are weak to and what they are immune to, based on color alone. Undead? Get some real-world priests to the reservoirs, and suddenly sprinklers and water hoses become lethal to the zombies that invade us now. World leaders probably have one or more people on their payrole who played the game at one point or other, and would know how to break enchantment spells. Hopefully, anyways. And the sense motive check to tell if they're dominated isn't too tough for anyone who has any training, or is familiar with the dominated person. In short? The invasion force is doomed. We know more than the wizards do, and have an abundance of people with the knowledge and ways to communicate it instantly. We win.

[Halae]

The invasion force is doomed. We know more than the wizards do, and have an abundance of people with the knowledge and ways to communicate it instantly. We win.

There's two things you're overlooking here, though. First off, world leaders aren't going to contact a bunch of nerds who get together every week to play a game and discuss strategy with them. This is simple fact, and those higher-ups that do play the game will be going "This can't possibly be real" and will likely employ normal tactics. The second is fairly simple as well, and it comes from something the character in your avatar said - "Keep your finely turned watch, I'll take a sledgehammer to the face any day." We might have the potential know-how to beat them, but that still requires a whole lot of ability to just accomplish, which we don't have any of the ability to effectively utilize. On top of that, who's to say those converts that I mentioned earlier aren't going to be talking to the wizards they've joined up with about those same very weaknesses you're suggesting we take advantage of? The leader of the D&D army just brings in a troll, right? Then casts immunity to fire on him and sends him against the flamethrower users. And who's to say that priests from our world would even be capable of blessing water? they might be capable of it, but do they know how?

[Amnestic]

We know more than the wizards do, and have an abundance of people with the knowledge and ways to communicate it instantly. We win.

I'm not exactly sure knowledge is going to stop them, especially since you need the means to effectively act on said knowledge.

And the Wizard could just mindrape you and take all of your knowledge as his own, at which point he knows everything you did anyway. Then he's got knowledge and reality breaking at will powers

[Fable Wright]

There's two things you're overlooking here, though. First off, world leaders aren't going to contact a bunch of nerds who get together every week to play a game and discuss strategy with them. This is simple fact, and those higher-ups that do play the game will be going "This can't possibly be real" and will likely employ normal tactics. The second is fairly simple as well, and it comes from something the character in your avatar said - "Keep your finely turned watch, I'll take a sledgehammer to the face any day." We might have the potential know-how to beat them, but that still requires a whole lot of ability to just accomplish, which we don't have any of the ability to effectively utilize. On top of that, who's to say those converts that I mentioned earlier aren't going to be talking to the wizards they've joined up with about those same very weaknesses you're suggesting we take advantage of? The leader of the D&D army just brings in a troll, right? Then casts immunity to fire on him and sends him against the flamethrower users. And who's to say that priests from our world would even be capable of blessing water? they might be capable of it, but do they know how?

Yes, you have a point. However, if I may play devil's advocate: I never did say immediately. After several days when it has been consistently shown that the D&D rules apply to these characters, then we can begin mobilizing armies. Wizards of the Coast would be immediately contacted, and all D&D rules would be at the army's fingertips, as well as the people who play the games. There's also a chance of D&D players getting offered jobs with benefits as tactical commanders in the army, if such a thing were needed. Plus, if this is in New York, there are thousands of D&D players up there, which can begin to combat the armies coming in if they manage to ever leave the train station, even if it's just dropping bricks on people, or advising their relatives in the police force on what to do if/when they realize what's going on. Also, you're assuming that converts will be readily accepted and not just butchered the moment they enter the train station that is swarming with rank and file soldiers under orders to kill everyone they see, especially including the small, wimpy looking kid with a backpack full of odd-looking materials and several notebooks he brought with him, as they know what wizards are capable of. Assuming that some are even brought in, who says that the higher-ups will accept them or their advice? If they did, what stops other planted converts from joining up and making ikea tarrasques that they use against the wizards? Also, immunity to fire only prevents so much damage for a certain amount of time, there are limited numbers of wizards that can use it, and there's still a weakness to acid which might also be exploited. Finally, I would say that they do know how to make holy water, given that it is indeed made in this world.

@Amnestic: How would the wizard know who to mindrape, and if he has it, why is he wasting it on some random guy who might or might not play D&D, rather than a world leader somewhere? And how do we know it still exists in his world, as it's 3.0 material?

[Amnestic]

@Amnestic: How would the wizard know who to mindrape, and if he has it, why is he wasting it on some random guy who might or might not play D&D, rather than a world leader somewhere?

Because he's a Wizard who has access to an entire school centred around finding stuff out?

Even if Mindrape doesn't exist, there are alternatives aplenty. It's not as if he'll be stuck for methods to pry information out of people.

[Halae]

Because he's a Wizard who has access to an entire school centred around finding stuff out?

And he's even guaranteed to have it - You're not even allowed to ban divination

[Amnestic]

And he's even guaranteed to have it - You're not even allowed to ban divination

A rule I've always found a bit odd to be honest. What's the reasoning behind not being allowed to ban divination anyway? :smallconfused:

[Halae]

I think it's because WotC considered it both essential and useless, once again showing us exactly how much gaming savvy they actually have - a smart wizard will use it to find out what happens later so they can better prepre their spells. Another potential reason is pretty simple "All wizards can Cast Read Magic". they couldn't do this if divination was banned.

[Amnestic]

Another potential reason is pretty simple "All wizards can Cast Read Magic". they couldn't do this if divination was banned.

Not unless they did the gamebreaking thing of making Read Magic a Universal spell. :smalltongue:

[Halae]

oh pshah. Like WotC could ever be bothered to do the smart thing :smalltongue:

[Maquise]

The entire invasion would fail because our entire universe is a Magic Dead Zone.

There.

[Amnestic]

The entire invasion would fail because our entire universe is a Magic Dead Zone.


http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png

Afraid you're going to have to prove that one. Lack of magical talents does not a magical dead zone make.

[Terazul]

And even if it did, Invoke Magic.

[Big Fau]

And even if it did, Invoke Magic.

Which is a 9th level spell that costs 1000gp and only allows up to 3rd level spells. While useful in some situations, Global Conquest in a Dead Magic Zone is not one of them.

But Dead Magic Zones are a moot point, since the OP specified this:


The D&D fantasy empire can still use their magic, both arcane and divine, within our world.

[Ravens_cry]

Only if all "mundane" technology can be used in D&D land.Anyway, the smartest thing to do is to combine the two. Been able to heal someone at deaths door, or beyond, quickly? What army would not want that? How about the ability to transport an insertion team, or a bomb, into an enemy compound? As for non-military uses, imagine what NASA could do with Greater Teleport. Fabricate would be like how nanotechnology has been promised, but not yet delivered, turning junk (the spell never says the raw material has to be in a pure form) into finished goods.

[WhiteHarness]

While yes, plate armor fell out of favor with the advent of the longbow...
I can't let that slide.

It's a pop-culture myth. Plate armour had barely taken off at the time the English began to use massed longbow-wielding archers. Plate armour beat the longbow; not the other way around. That's why people continued to wear it for more than two centuries after the last great longbow victory in the Hundred Years War.

Since I encounter the claim that the longbow was some sort of quasi-magical armour-piercing weapon so very often on the internet, I long ago wrote a short essay that I like to post in response whenever I find myself confronting this regrettably common myth:

The English longbow was not as good at piercing plate armour as its fanboys frequently claim.

Remember that at Agincourt the French armoured men-at-arms did in fact reach the English line, and were defeated in hand-to-hand combat, not by archery. The high casualty figures for the men-at-arms are probably the result of Henry ordering all prisoners to be slaughtered after they were captured and bound.

Also, remember that Agincourt is the last of the great English longbow victories. It did not prove as effective against advancing armour technology. Plate armour won the conflict with the longbow. Sure, there was a back-and-forth, and at times the longbow even had the upper hand at a few points in the 14th century, but ultimately plate armour prevailed. It took the advent of effective firearms to drive armour from the battlefield. William Turner, writing hudreds of years later in the late 17th century argues that longbow use should be revived because, "...arrows would do more mischief than formerly they did: since neither men nor horses are so well armed now to resist them, as in former ages they used to be." Essentially, he believed that a force of longbowmen would be effective in battle since they can shoot more quickly than musketeers, but also because soldiers would be vulnerable to the arrows precisely because they no longer made a practice of wearing armour into battle. He acknowledges that armour defeated arrows and drove the longbow from its once-exalted position on the battlefield. A century later, none other than Benjamin Franklin would echo his words.

The longbow won at Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt simply because the English got to pick the battlefield and made the French fight on their terms, which included placing their longbowmen behind substantial field fortifications. What conclusion should we draw from the results of other battles in which English archers were ridden down by the very heavy cavalry whose bane they supposedly were? In the batle of Patay, that's just what happened. Where was the longbow's armour-piercing power then?

I submit the following passage from Dr. Michael Lacy's paper on the Effectiveness of Medieval Knightly Armour. This portion deals with the battle of Flodden (1513) wherein the Scots fielded a force clad in the latest plate infantry armours mass-produced on the Continent:

"...the longbow, so decisive in the wars of the last century, was defeated by the heavy German armour of the Scottish front ranks; a contemporary accounts describe them as "most assuredly harnesed" in armour, and that they "abode the most dangerous shot of arrows, which sore them annoyed but yet except it hit them in some bare place, did them no hurt." Bishop Ruthal, writing 10 days after the battle remarked "they were so well cased in armour that the arrows did them no harm, and were such large and stout men that one would not fall when four or five bills struck them."

That's right, contemporary English chroniclers reveal that the longbow did not pierce armour. Other accounts from Poitiers and Brouwershaven (1426) tell similar stories, to say nothing of reports of battles from the English dynastic struggle known as the Wars of the Roses in which both sides turned the longbow on each other, in which it is specially pointed out that Lords Clifford and Dacre were not vulnerable to arrows until they had lifted their visors to drink or shout or breathe.

More near the time of Agincourt, here is a passage from the biography of Don Pero Niño, a Spanish privateer, who raided the English coast a couple of years before Agincourt:

"...they (the Spanish) were so near them (the English) that they could easily tell the fair men from the dark...the standard and he who bore it were likewise riddled with arrows, and the standard bearer had as many round his body as a bull in the ring, but he was shielded by his good armour"

For what it's worth, that standard bearer was none other than the author of this account himself, Gutierre Diaz de Gamez. It is noteworthy that his plate armour enabled him to survive a close-range arrow onslaught and live to write this passage years later.

The longbow was not the "king of the battlefield," the magical nuclear armour-piercer that its fanboys want you to believe. It was only effective under certain controlled circumstances, and even then was mostly an anti-cavalry weapon. Don't buy the hype. Don't misunderstand me--the English were awesome during the early part of the Hundred Years War, but it was because of their strategic expertise, and canny use of combined arms tactics, not because they possessed some magical, battle-winning wonder weapon.

I do not say that most of the casualties at Agincourt are the result of Henry's slaughtering of prisoners, but it can't be denied that that action did indeed inflate the numbers of men of rank who perished there.

I think I do make mention of the fact that the English were caught out in the open as being a decisive factor in the French victory. Again, IMO the English longbow seems to prevail over armoured men only if the English get to choose the ground and have time to set up their stakes and such beforehand.

I have lately dug up another account in support of armour stopping arrows. This is from a letter written by one Jehan Baugey, and dated 16 September 1475:

"That Monday after supper the English (mercenary longbowmen) quarreled over a wench and wanted to kill each other. As soon as the duke (of Burgundy) heard of this, he went to them with a few people to appease them but they, not recognizing the duke, as they claimed, shot two or three times directly at him with their bows. (The arrows went) very near his head and it was extraordinarily lucky that he was not killed, for he had no armour on at all."

The Burgundians had been hiring English longbowmen as mercenaries for decades at this point, and would have been intimately familiar with the power of the longbow. Yet they still expected that plate armour would have saved a man if he were struck by one of those arrows. What conclusion should we draw from this?

Here is a passage from Vaughan's Philip the Good that deals with the battle of Brouwershaven:

"...they (The English) returned fire with their deadly long-bows and drove the Dutch back in disorder. However, arrows could make no impression on Philip and his heavily-armed knights, who now arrived on the scene. The chronicler points out that Andrieu de Valines was killed by an arrow in the eye because he was not wearing a helmet."

Here, not only do we again have the expectation that a helmet would have saved one man, but a direct statement that the arrows from those longbows made no impression on the (presumably plate-clad) knights.

So there you are: evidence from several primary sources attesting to the ineffectiveness of longbows against steel plate armour. I can't seem to find any sources stating that arrows killed men through plate armour.

I politely call on you to graciously reconsider your position on the subject.

[Talya]

I can't let that slide.

It's a pop-culture myth. Plate armour had barely taken off at the time the English began to use massed longbow-wielding archers. Plate armour beat the longbow; not the other way around. That's why people continued to wear it for more than two centuries after the last great longbow victory in the Hundred Years War.


In a rock-paper-scissors match, plate does beat longbow. I want to clarify that it did not "beat the longbow" in battle, however, simply because longbowmen were inexpensive, and plate armor was not. Plate was limited to an elite few in most battles. Economicly, the longbow still rode victorious over plate armor. You could not outfit an entire army in plate, and a lone noble knight surviving while arrows destroyed all his men was not going to be able to put up much of a fight by themselves.

[Stix]

just gotta throw this out there. the modern world still has a few very real advantages.

1. mundane explosives: doubtful that the city of new york would go this route without believing it the only choice, but a few teams with shaped charges and detailed blueprints could pull off a sloppy demolition on Grand central. all else fails airstrike brings down the house. everything not of an epic level (and unlucky ones of epic level) dies. (read also: rocks fall everyone dies) also now your portal is going to port you directly INTO a pile of rubble. if anyone has watched Stargate we know that alone could f--- up anything.

2. once it becomes a WAR. when the world starts to take the invading ren-fair freaks seriously. when they realize they can't fight this army in the usual way they would probably be willing to use tactical nuclear devices. It takes a well constructed optimized wizard to get anything close to the destructive power of a nuke assume on the high side they have 20 citynuke mages (shouldn't be that many in the D&D world) there are thousands of nukes in the US arsenal alone. eventually anyone fails a save.

3. and possibly the most reasonable counter for the wizard: Barret 50 cal snipers. at half a mile (M82 Effective range is over a mile) the bullet outruns it's sound. if a mage can't hear the bullet coming how does he cast a counter. Sure for the first months of the invasion he won't physically set foot in our world but what evil epic level NPC can resist really viewing his prize. 1 headshot from a bullet the size of your pointer finger that you can't see coming. Army Decapped.

[Almagesto]

In a rock-paper-scissors match, plate does beat longbow. I want to clarify that it did not "beat the longbow" in battle, however, simply because longbowmen were inexpensive, and plate armor was not. Plate was limited to an elite few in most battles. Economicly, the longbow still rode victorious over plate armor. You could not outfit an entire army in plate, and a lone noble knight surviving while arrows destroyed all his men was not going to be able to put up much of a fight by themselves.

It's true, when compounded, longbow does seem to be a better choice of weapon for an army. However I'm impressed with the essay provided by White Harness.



I can't let that slide.

It's a pop-culture myth. Plate armour had barely taken off at the time the English began to use massed longbow-wielding archers. Plate armour beat the longbow; not the other way around. That's why people continued to wear it for more than two centuries after the last great longbow victory in the Hundred Years War.

Since I encounter the claim that the longbow was some sort of quasi-magical armour-piercing weapon so very often on the internet, I long ago wrote a short essay that I like to post in response whenever I find myself confronting this regrettably common myth:

The English longbow was not as good at piercing plate armour as its fanboys frequently claim.

Remember that at Agincourt the French armoured men-at-arms did in fact reach the English line, and were defeated in hand-to-hand combat, not by archery. The high casualty figures for the men-at-arms are probably the result of Henry ordering all prisoners to be slaughtered after they were captured and bound.

Also, remember that Agincourt is the last of the great English longbow victories. It did not prove as effective against advancing armour technology. Plate armour won the conflict with the longbow. Sure, there was a back-and-forth, and at times the longbow even had the upper hand at a few points in the 14th century, but ultimately plate armour prevailed. It took the advent of effective firearms to drive armour from the battlefield. William Turner, writing hudreds of years later in the late 17th century argues that longbow use should be revived because, "...arrows would do more mischief than formerly they did: since neither men nor horses are so well armed now to resist them, as in former ages they used to be." Essentially, he believed that a force of longbowmen would be effective in battle since they can shoot more quickly than musketeers, but also because soldiers would be vulnerable to the arrows precisely because they no longer made a practice of wearing armour into battle. He acknowledges that armour defeated arrows and drove the longbow from its once-exalted position on the battlefield. A century later, none other than Benjamin Franklin would echo his words.

The longbow won at Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt simply because the English got to pick the battlefield and made the French fight on their terms, which included placing their longbowmen behind substantial field fortifications. What conclusion should we draw from the results of other battles in which English archers were ridden down by the very heavy cavalry whose bane they supposedly were? In the batle of Patay, that's just what happened. Where was the longbow's armour-piercing power then?

I submit the following passage from Dr. Michael Lacy's paper on the Effectiveness of Medieval Knightly Armour. This portion deals with the battle of Flodden (1513) wherein the Scots fielded a force clad in the latest plate infantry armours mass-produced on the Continent:

"...the longbow, so decisive in the wars of the last century, was defeated by the heavy German armour of the Scottish front ranks; a contemporary accounts describe them as "most assuredly harnesed" in armour, and that they "abode the most dangerous shot of arrows, which sore them annoyed but yet except it hit them in some bare place, did them no hurt." Bishop Ruthal, writing 10 days after the battle remarked "they were so well cased in armour that the arrows did them no harm, and were such large and stout men that one would not fall when four or five bills struck them."

That's right, contemporary English chroniclers reveal that the longbow did not pierce armour. Other accounts from Poitiers and Brouwershaven (1426) tell similar stories, to say nothing of reports of battles from the English dynastic struggle known as the Wars of the Roses in which both sides turned the longbow on each other, in which it is specially pointed out that Lords Clifford and Dacre were not vulnerable to arrows until they had lifted their visors to drink or shout or breathe.

More near the time of Agincourt, here is a passage from the biography of Don Pero Niño, a Spanish privateer, who raided the English coast a couple of years before Agincourt:

"...they (the Spanish) were so near them (the English) that they could easily tell the fair men from the dark...the standard and he who bore it were likewise riddled with arrows, and the standard bearer had as many round his body as a bull in the ring, but he was shielded by his good armour"

For what it's worth, that standard bearer was none other than the author of this account himself, Gutierre Diaz de Gamez. It is noteworthy that his plate armour enabled him to survive a close-range arrow onslaught and live to write this passage years later.

The longbow was not the "king of the battlefield," the magical nuclear armour-piercer that its fanboys want you to believe. It was only effective under certain controlled circumstances, and even then was mostly an anti-cavalry weapon. Don't buy the hype. Don't misunderstand me--the English were awesome during the early part of the Hundred Years War, but it was because of their strategic expertise, and canny use of combined arms tactics, not because they possessed some magical, battle-winning wonder weapon.

I do not say that most of the casualties at Agincourt are the result of Henry's slaughtering of prisoners, but it can't be denied that that action did indeed inflate the numbers of men of rank who perished there.

I think I do make mention of the fact that the English were caught out in the open as being a decisive factor in the French victory. Again, IMO the English longbow seems to prevail over armoured men only if the English get to choose the ground and have time to set up their stakes and such beforehand.

I have lately dug up another account in support of armour stopping arrows. This is from a letter written by one Jehan Baugey, and dated 16 September 1475:

"That Monday after supper the English (mercenary longbowmen) quarreled over a wench and wanted to kill each other. As soon as the duke (of Burgundy) heard of this, he went to them with a few people to appease them but they, not recognizing the duke, as they claimed, shot two or three times directly at him with their bows. (The arrows went) very near his head and it was extraordinarily lucky that he was not killed, for he had no armour on at all."

The Burgundians had been hiring English longbowmen as mercenaries for decades at this point, and would have been intimately familiar with the power of the longbow. Yet they still expected that plate armour would have saved a man if he were struck by one of those arrows. What conclusion should we draw from this?

Here is a passage from Vaughan's Philip the Good that deals with the battle of Brouwershaven:

"...they (The English) returned fire with their deadly long-bows and drove the Dutch back in disorder. However, arrows could make no impression on Philip and his heavily-armed knights, who now arrived on the scene. The chronicler points out that Andrieu de Valines was killed by an arrow in the eye because he was not wearing a helmet."

Here, not only do we again have the expectation that a helmet would have saved one man, but a direct statement that the arrows from those longbows made no impression on the (presumably plate-clad) knights.

So there you are: evidence from several primary sources attesting to the ineffectiveness of longbows against steel plate armour. I can't seem to find any sources stating that arrows killed men through plate armour.

I politely call on you to graciously reconsider your position on the subject.

[Doug Lampert]

In a rock-paper-scissors match, plate does beat longbow. I want to clarify that it did not "beat the longbow" in battle, however, simply because longbowmen were inexpensive, and plate armor was not. Plate was limited to an elite few in most battles. Economicly, the longbow still rode victorious over plate armor. You could not outfit an entire army in plate, and a lone noble knight surviving while arrows destroyed all his men was not going to be able to put up much of a fight by themselves.

Longbowmen in the hundred years war got paid half as much per man as fully armored men at arms, the English Kings considered the men at arms a better deal, but didn't have enough of them available so they had to settle for longbowmen.

An archer's ransom was also a substantial fraction of a knight's ransom. About a third IIRC.

By the Wars of the Roses the archers themselves were wearing plate, and plate was being mass produced in large factories. They in fact DID outfit entire armies with plate.

CROSSBOW armed archers were cheap, longbows were always the arm of an expensive elite, well fed and well conditioned to draw a bow with a 150lb+ draw.

Note: MODERN ARCHERS, athletes in excelent condition, with a good diet and conditioning, swore up and down for years that claims of even 100 lb draw bows were obvious nonsense, NO ONE could draw such a heavy bow in battle.

Then archiologists recovered a substantial number of actual longbows and, whoops EVERY SINGLE ONE had an "impossible" draw. The "light" ones were 120lb draw, the heavy ones were more like 180lb.

Those guys were well paid full time professionals wearing plate themselves, not cheap peasants.

[Radar]

Hm... there's still one glaring fact that's missing here: It is the modern world that's being invaded. That means: D&D nerds do exist. Suddenly, we know the exact capabilities of their armies, and how to best combat them. (...)
And some people (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/2/20/) have already foreseen it.

In direct combat modern army should be able to beat or at least stall indefinately low to mid level casters by sheer numbers, range of fire advantage and attrition. If they started using scry & die tactics or went Enchantment route, we would be in real trouble. Paranoid high-level wizards cannot be beaten with mundane means at all. Knowing is half the battle, but not more.

[QuidEst]

First of all, this sound very enjoyable. Secondly, I would love to see some bards thrown into the mix. XP

I think you can make this exactly as balanced as you want. We've established that the high-level casters are going to be the big game changer. In addition to limiting the level, you might give magic (divine and arcane) a certain chance for failure because of our world. You may also restrict what classes exist for the invasion force, or have certain types of magic work poorly.

Depending on the meta-level you're willing to tolerate, you may have nerds reverse-engineering the mechanics that the wizards work on. Not necessarily D&D nerds (that might be too far), but even without that, /somebody/ would have used the Vancian system.

I think that modern people would move on to unconventional methods pretty quickly- casters fail when you can get a high enough penalty on the concentration, right? Lasers, varied sonic attacks, toxic gasses, and so on would at least be able to burn through sundry spells to counter them.

The other option is that maybe they've already taken over. Instead of sending in an army, they sent in teams to supplant high-ranking officers and leaders, giving plenty of backup to make sure cover isn't blown. From there, they can influence things, work out what attack options are, and so on.

[Slipperychicken]

There's always the probability of Our World taking a page out of DND: a truly elite team of bad***es (consisting of some incongruous combination like a navy SEAL, a khmer mercenary, a member of the SAS, a KGB officer, an afghan demolitions expert...) gets called together to stop the invasion. They put their differences aside, run into grand central, gun down hordes of "DND" forces, learn about a million-to-one strategy to close the portal forever, and barely manage to close the portal while heroically battling the epic wizard and his minions...


Hey... it could happen, right?

[Talya]

There's always the probability of Our World taking a page out of DND: a truly elite team of bad***es (consisting of some incongruous combination like a navy SEAL, a khmer mercenary, a member of the SAS, a KGB officer, an afghan demolitions expert...) gets called together to stop the invasion. They put their differences aside, run into grand central, gun down hordes of "DND" forces, learn about a million-to-one strategy to close the portal forever, and barely manage to close the portal while heroically battling the epic wizard and his minions...


Hey... it could happen, right?

Hey, D&D is a set of fantasy tropes. If we're using it for the invaders, why not allow modern tropes? James Bond, Jack Bauer, Batman and Chuck Norris would need to be combating them.

[Amador]

I think that everyone is forgetting one thing about this invasion. It will NOT be headed by a wizard! A high level wizard has absolutely no reason to mass an invasion force, and no reason to invade. This invasion will be orchestrated by some lazy aristocrats back home who will send in as much as they can afford, but there will not be nearly as many casters as people seem to think. My typical DnD army is mostly mundane (commoner) people, possibly with a few magical weapons and armors, but mostly this army will be outfitted like any army that has ever been massed. The lowest bidder provides the equipment, troops, and support. And only the commanding officers will have class levels.

This means that since mages are expensive, they will be rare and mostly low-level, clerics will be heal-bots (no expensive material components). Most of the ground troops will be conscripts given a spear or sword, maybe a shield, and providing their own armor. Most of them will run in terror as soon as the guns start shooting, because the "mundane" forces will seem to be carrying magical weapons as standard issue. The greatest range that a damage inflicting spell can do, without custom spells is a little less than a quarter mile, and the best siege equipment the "magical" army has any experience with loses effectiveness at about the same distance.

So, assume that the magical force succeeds in gaining control of a building in NYC. They won't have any idea that the mundanes have mobile siege engines that are effective at more than mile, semi-mobile artillery with effective range of more than 50 miles. That's right, WWII artillery can fire further further than the horizon, all you need is a spotter who can see the target. This doesn't even get into high altitude bombers with smart bombs, air to ground missiles, and other precision weapons. If things get really horrible (as in no civilians in NYC), a wide area napalm attack, a small thermonuclear warhead, or dispersal bombing would easily take out ANY reasonable military force that a DnD world would be willing to send into ours.

[Hazzardevil]

There's always the probability of Our World taking a page out of DND: a truly elite team of bad***es (consisting of some incongruous combination like a navy SEAL, a khmer mercenary, a member of the SAS, a KGB officer, an afghan demolitions expert...) gets called together to stop the invasion. They put their differences aside, run into grand central, gun down hordes of "DND" forces, learn about a million-to-one strategy to close the portal forever, and barely manage to close the portal while heroically battling the epic wizard and his minions...


Hey... it could happen, right?

In fact it will happen due to the laws of Improbable adventuring.
Adventuring should kill most 1st level adventurers, yet in nearly every dnd game, they survive and pull of highly unlikely schemes to stop the villain, Because of this the msot unlikely thing possible always happens.

In other words, 10% chance? Never gonna happen.
1/1000000? Guranteed!

[Ravens_cry]

Or you could have them work together against a far greater threat. A badass commando team, backed by a wizard and a cleric.

[Coidzor]

In fact it will happen due to the laws of Improbable adventuring.
Adventuring should kill most 1st level adventurers, yet in nearly every dnd game, they survive and pull of highly unlikely schemes to stop the villain, Because of this the msot unlikely thing possible always happens.

In other words, 10% chance? Never gonna happen.
1/1000000? Guranteed!

So we need to blindfold the sniper while having him hop up and down on one foot while only having one arm to aim with, right?

[Arbane]

One other advantage resource Earth might have: Sheer weight of numbers. Your typical D&D world will have a MUCH lower human(oid) population than the modern world does.

Unfortunately, it's a resource for the invaders, too. Damn Mass Animate Dead...


1 headshot from a bullet the size of your pointer finger that you can't see coming. Army Decapped.

That's what Resurrection is for.

As gets pointed out every time this subject pops up, straightforward brute force is probably the DUMBEST way to stage this invasion. Sneaky infiltration (even if it's just a few dozen Invisible Rogues and Beguilers on the first trip through the portal to scout out is almost certainly a better tactic.

In a superhero game I'm in, part of the backstory was an Evil Wizard Overlord who did something like this - their forces carefully scouted out Earth, figured out the best places to capture first, made magic countermeasures to all our technology...and had it ALL go disastrously wrong when the main invasion force _somehow_ got redirected to "modern-day Earth...with SUPERHEROES." Bullet-deflection and engine-killing spells aren't much help against werewolf ninjas or psychic mutants... :smallsmile:

Apropos of very little, what's the DC on the Fort save for nerve gas?

As an exercise, if you know what's coming, what are the best third-level or lower spells for surviving a shootout with Earth troops?

[Hazzardevil]

So we need to blindfold the sniper while having him hop up and down on one foot while only having one arm to aim with, right?

In theory, but the improability idea has that annoying chance that it doesn't work on improbable occasions.

[The Random NPC]

I think that everyone is forgetting one thing about this invasion. It WILL NOT be headed by a wizard! Because that is what the OP said will happen.

Fixed that for you.