Cure minor wounds trap thoughts

[No brains]

I had this neat-o idea that one or more temples my players would visit in my campaign setting would have a cure minor wounds trap at the altar or someplace to facilitate cheap, renewable hp for the common good. What I wonder is: how would this affect the game and the world?

World wise- if there was a way for people to get an unlimited font of even 1 hp of healing, they would probably spring for it. Its a clever, yet viable idea that can also explain what temples do with money, why healing is localized at temples, and also provide yet another a good reason why good, smart racists can beat evil, dumb racists.

In between- The rules for crafting traps aren't as carefully edited as the rules for other magic items, so theoretically the cost in gp and XP for the trap could be zero. Since that's BS, let's work that a 0-level spell equals .5 for cost modifiers. By the rules on page 75 of the DMG, the 'trap' should cost 250gp and 20XP to craft at minimum caster level. Nearly any settlement could muster the wealth for such an investment, and even a hamlet of just 90 people could scrape up the cash for such a security. Not only that, but absolutely any community has the potential to have a third level cleric or druid who has the craft wondrous item feat! Check DMG 137 for community wealth and population.

So it makes mechanical and intuitive sense that these things exist. Then again, we have Player Characters mucking around.

Game wise- A psychotic and cheap (i.e. any) group of PCs could afford to make one trap of their very own at first goddamn level if they wanted it bad enough. They could even pay off one of the casters who serviced the first trap to bypass the feat requirements. Here's where it gets tricky. Using these 'traps' in communities already gives the PCs a sense that they have a 'base' where they can fight at full strength to deter any mobs who might want to pursue them. How far does a DM let this go?

Traps are assumed to be stuck in static 5' squares, but they don't actually require any real mass to exist. A wise player might want to install a wagon or cart (or even a carpet!) with one of these traps. Is this acceptable? Does the DM want to run a world where getting out of the dungeon, or back to any cleared room of a dungeon ensures safety for the group? It might or might not be appropriate given a certain game.

Of course there exists an arsenal of tricks to rip away this security blanket if the DM wants the group to humanoid-up and face the dangerous world. The tricks include stealing the cart, smashing the cart, bull-rushing the player off their cart, or any tactic that could be done to disarm any unwanted 'trap' such as disable device or dispel.

There is absolutely nothing that the DM could do to stop the PCs from making a Cure Minor Wounds Trap with automatic resets if they fairly invested their earned XP and gp to do so. They only need a day's time and a pittance to pop one up wherever they want. If this keeps happening to the DM's dislike it is up to the DM to show that the enemies the PCs face have adapted to compensate for this predictable tactic if the DM feels it is abused.

I am CERTAIN this has been thought of before, but I would like to know what people think of this idea. Please tell me how you would plan to implement this or have handled it in the past. I'm always curious to see how the workings of game mechanics can be used in a world inhabited by people who live by them every day, and ideas for cultures or organizations to use this would also be appreciated.

TANKZ!

[Big Fau]

I am CERTAIN this has been thought of before, but I would like to know what people think of this idea. Please tell me how you would plan to implement this or have handled it in the past. I'm always curious to see how the workings of game mechanics can be used in a world inhabited by people who live by them every day, and ideas for cultures or organizations to use this would also be appreciated.


You're right, it has been done. Several times over. It's actually an ok tactic too, since it turns HP into an Encounter-based resource instead of a Daily resource (which means the tanks are more relevant throughout the day).

But some DMs hate the idea of infinite healing, viewing it as trivializing encounters (Fact: Casters can do that anyway, this just lets noncasters continue contributing in every encounter) and ruining the game (which makes no sense).

[Almagesto]

World-wise

If any hamlet can muster up the resources to do this kind of trap, then so can the PCS. By the same token, however, so can the bad guys. Think about it, no group of low-level thugs would hesitate to spend a little of the earned loot to create such a trap.
Maybe creating "healing traps" requieres the sanction of a temple, thus restricting its availability to only some temples in some big cities. Maybe giving the chance for rogue clerics to shine as illegal creators of traps as an act of benevolence.


Gaming-wise

DON'T DO THIS. Why? Even if RAW you could do this, PCs' sense of danger would be greatly impered by such action. Why do you want them to feel this way? Imagine if Frodo and Sam just had to walk through a grassy meadow to get to the well where they needed to drop the ring. Not as cool as through dreadful swamps and a raging volcano at the end, right?
If you do go with this idea - DON'T make them mobile.

[Almagesto]

But some DMs hate the idea of infinite healing, viewing it as trivializing encounters (...).

Exactly my point.

[Big Fau]

DON'T DO THIS. Why? Even if RAW you could do this, PCs' sense of danger would be greatly impered by such action. Why do you want them to feel this way? Imagine if Frodo and Sam just had to walk through a grassy meadow to get to the well where they needed to drop the ring. Not as cool as through dreadful swamps and a raging volcano at the end, right?

To be honest, LotR was a story about a bunch of guys walking. Oh, and a war.

Comparing infinite healing to LotR doesn't exactly work, especially the way you did it. The PCs still have the threat of death, but it's not a Death By A Thousand Cuts the way it usually is (now it's just rocket tag).



The classes that benefit the most from infinite healing are the ones with the job to stand in front and take damage. There is no reason to deny them the ability to continue to do so.

[Rhaegar14]

Honestly, it depends on how you use them. If they're all over the place, then it does all the bad stuff Almagesto was saying. But if they're only available in the middle of big cities... that's a bit different.

[Tvtyrant]

Exactly my point.

That it would trivialize encounters by giving tanks a chance to shine instead of just casters?

Look at it this way: An encounter is supposed to take up 25%-50% of your daily resources. If HP is no longer one of those resources you can boost the difficulty of each encounter without upsetting the games balance; the danger comes from swing fights with more equal forces rather than encounters you know they are going to win but are designed to lower their health.

[Big Fau]

That it would trivialize encounters by giving tanks a chance to shine instead of just casters?

Look at it this way: An encounter is supposed to take up 25%-50% of your daily resources. If HP is no longer one of those resources you can boost the difficulty of each encounter without upsetting the games balance; the danger comes from swing fights with more equal forces rather than encounters you know they are going to win but are designed to lower their health.

Thank you. No need for healing means you can run more encounters/day to provide a challenge to classes with limited resources (casters) while ensuring the ones with infinite resources get a chance to shine (the noncasters).

[The Random NPC]

I believe the general concensus on this board is that allowing those traps begins to lead to the Tippyverse. Remember that you can also make resetting traps of Create Food and Water, as well ast Prestidigitation. A lot of utility spells are great when they become available to the general populace, but doing so would change the world significantly.

[peacenlove]

This idea would fly in my table because wands of vigor exist for 750 gp and are infinitely harder to locate and be destroyed rather than a 5' surface (until bags of holding kick in anyway but by then you would find many other out of combat healing tricks).
Also while your idea has merit, it is not uncommon for DM's not to have starting characters pooling their resources for a party item during character creation. So this healing carpet would be feasible after 2nd level, or for DMs who follow the WBL guidelines, after 3rd level.

[Ravens_cry]

I think it could be interesting if you explore the implications of having infinite healing for almost any wound in the broader world rather than simply be a dungeon mechanic.

[Almagesto]

The classes that benefit the most from infinite healing are the ones with the job to stand in front and take damage. There is no reason to deny them the ability to continue to do so.

Uh... yeah, there is: GAME BALANCE. Unless you find a way to offset the advantage with escalating encounters, like Tvtyrant or Rhaegar14 said, you can expect tanks to be unbalanced in-game.

A way to balance everything could be a "refresh" trap instead of just a heal trap. That means not only hp but spells are fully restored. That can be interesting.

[Veyr]

Traps designed with beneficial spells is one of the main founding elements of the Tippyverse.

[Jack_Simth]

Uh... yeah, there is: GAME BALANCE. Unless you find a way to offset the advantage with escalating encounters, like Tvtyrant or Rhaegar14 said, you can expect tanks to be unbalanced in-game.

They become stronger, but not unbalanced. In any one encounter, starting every encounter at full HP... doesn't do much. The party can't wear away the opponent(s) any faster for it. Besides, as it stands already, healing is rather cheap in D&D - Clerics get it as part of their daily allotment, and a Wand of Lesser Vigor is 750 gp, and heals up to 550 hp (50 blocks of 11 hp); about 1.36 gp per HP. It's fairly rare for someone to go into a fight without full HP in D&D. The infinite widget of Cure Minor Wounds just makes it less expensive in the long run.

It makes skillmonkies and meatshields slightly more useful, in that they'll be at full health without drawing any resources from the band-aid box or their wealth. It means that the skillmonkies and meatshields can do grind-fests a little better if they get the occasional break. That's it. The Wizard will still control battles with a single spell. The Cleric still has the option of buffing himself to high-heaven and going CoDzilla. It makes the Fighter and Rogue slightly stronger classes... but they're still not at the level of the Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, or Druid.

Uncapped Cure Minor Wounds does not the game break.

Mind you, other spells can break the game's economy into little itty-bitty pieces, but Cure Minor Wounds at will doesn't break the game.


A way to balance everything could be a "refresh" trap instead of just a heal trap. That means not only hp but spells are fully restored. That can be interesting.
No... then "Nova" builds (most easily done by casters) would reign supreme. By a lot. That *would* break the game.

[Runestar]

There's precedent though, some modules have undead activate traps of energy drain to heal themselves. Not very effective, since the amount healed is quite little.

I guess this is one of those things which is okay when used by the enemy in the context of a 5-round encounter (eg: repeating traps of energy drain), but kinda gets perverted when used outside of its intended purpose (as a renewable source of healing).

Then again, there are quite a few sources of free healing in dnd already (touch of healing/dragon shaman aura, ghaele PC/cohort, binder, true necro+tomb tainted soul), so I don't think it is really that game breaking. Healing is already cheap enough as is (wand of vigor), the PCs aren't really saving that much with said traps.

[Big Fau]

Uh... yeah, there is: GAME BALANCE. Unless you find a way to offset the advantage with escalating encounters, like Tvtyrant or Rhaegar14 said, you can expect tanks to be unbalanced in-game.

A way to balance everything could be a "refresh" trap instead of just a heal trap. That means not only hp but spells are fully restored. That can be interesting.

News Flash: The developers have all ready "broken" the game. Many many many times over.


And another thing: Check out page 136 of Dungeonscape. For once, someone (either Jason or Burlew himself) had the same idea as the OP.

Edit: And you clearly have no sense of game balance if you think a trap to refresh spells/day is balanced.

[No brains]

OKAY! This think-tank has fired its mighty mortar and rolled its swift treads.

So the cure minor wounds trap, particularly the magic carpet variant benefits the mundanes? Excellent. I'm always trying to find stuff that lets fighters be the 'safe and consistent' classes and casters the 'risky but worthy' classes.

I don't think this makes the world too safe because fairly intelligent enemies will employ this and plot against it as well. Like I said, a bull rush can turn the safety cart into an osmium albatross for the group who has an enemy hogging the good seat.

Another reason to love this idea is that it keeps pace with 4e's healing surges. You can only be fresh for battle six times a day? We stay fresh better than Tupperware in 3x. U Jelly?

While this won't break the game one thing to think for the future is escalation. If infinity spell X is a good idea, infinity spell Y might be great. Would making unlimited fixtures of any out of combat spell destroy the game? Infinity food from a 5th level cleric might endanger the rationality of serf farmers. But that also opens avenues for whether one would hoard or distribute the food (plot hook?) and what might be done with all the space that would have been cleared for farming.

Another point, this isn't taking Mordor and the Ring out of LotR, it's just eliminating kingsfoil. Mobile traps are a little cheesy since traps are normally supposed to be fixed, so limiting traps to a fixed point in space rather than a movable surface might be a good compromise.

Again, TANKZ!


This idea would fly in my table because wands of vigor exist for 750 gp and are infinitely harder to locate and be destroyed rather than a 5' surface (until bags of holding kick in anyway but by then you would find many other out of combat healing tricks).
Also while your idea has merit, it is not uncommon for DM's not to have starting characters pooling their resources for a party item during character creation. So this healing carpet would be feasible after 2nd level, or for DMs who follow the WBL guidelines, after 3rd level.

Actually, since the cost to craft the trap is about 200gp, the cost to buy one from a third level NPC who could make one would generally be double at 400gp, making this an option for a WBL first level group who's willing to pool and has the proper connections, unless each player gets all of their 900gp exactly when they get to second level.

[Jack_Simth]

While this won't break the game one thing to think for the future is escalation. If infinity spell X is a good idea, infinity spell Y might be great. Would making unlimited fixtures of any out of combat spell destroy the game? Infinity food from a 5th level cleric might endanger the rationality of serf farmers. But that also opens avenues for whether one would hoard or distribute the food (plot hook?) and what might be done with all the space that would have been cleared for farming. Yep. Traps are generally the basis of a Tippyverse.

For the core, you make a line of a few traps:
Cure X wounds.
Endure Elements
Remove Disease
Create Food and Water
Prestidigitation

So everyone is healthy (no injuries or diseases), everyone stays at a comfortable temperature, all diseases are eradicated, and everyone is fed tasty food. That's all the basic necessities covered - and no spells over 3rd level.

Now you put these in a line, and charge admission - say, 5 cp. An untrained laborer makes twice that in a day. You make a profit, as all of your expenses amount to one-time startup costs and collecting payment (which can be done by an untrained laborer - it doesn't matter if some people skip in without paying, as long as most pay up).

Now funny stuff happens: Without interference, you're a money sink. You have essentially 0 expenses, but can get a very large income. Cash slowly drains out of the economy, causing a depression (people can't pay their laborers, their rent, et cetera, as they simply can't get money - you have it all). Eventually, you hire people to do stuff for you, at slightly below normal wages (they'll do so, simply because: 1) you can demonstrate it's a livable wage, and 2) sooner or later, nobody else is hiring). This solves the depression, but leaves you paying everyone (or near enough), and effectively in charge...... with everyone doing work that you don't actually need, so the city ends up looking like whatever you want it to look like.

Traps of higher-level spells - such as Wall of Iron & Fabricate - get you into mass-manufacture.

[Almagesto]

C'mon, the game is about ADVENTURING ! If I wanted to rule a city I would just buy SimCity X. I think a wise DM should ban that kind of behavior.

[Big Fau]

C'mon, the game is about ADVENTURING ! If I wanted to rule a city I would just buy SimCity X. I think a wise DM should ban that kind of behavior.

Running a city (or a plane of existence) can be an adventure in it's own right, especially if you build a big enough sewer/catacomb (or follow Sheogorath's advice and build dungeons to punish criminals). Taking note of Fable 3, it's really just up to the DM to make a city into an adventure.

I can easily see someone running the RHoD with the PCs in charge of the towns involved.

[Johel]

Jack_Simth summed it up right.
If you can provide material wealth in large quantity with little to no labor or raw material, you basically erase a whole sector of the economy.
Or rather you got monopoly on that sector because you are truly the best.
Enjoy your profits and use them in the way you like.

You will do so until somebody decide to use violence to take over your magical traps and your gold.
If you can't defend yourself, you have to find a protector and pay him.
And said protector will eventually decide how HE wants to spend HIS gold.

That's how all nations started :
The good old "I-Don't-Stab-You-In-The-Face" service.
A group of people offered protection in exchange for material wealth.
You agreed ? They would protect you... or sometime not.
You disagree ? They kill you and loot your stuff.

So now such a group hear of a weak spellcaster and his band of misfits running a business around a magic item.
They hear that said item is both easy to use and maintenance-free.
Well... They will just storm in, take over and cut the intermediaries.

And this is why you don't want to have magical traps in every single village.
It would attract bandits and other opportunistic threats.
Or it would span skirmishes as rival owners try to destroy competition so they can increase the price.

Remember : it's the middle age.
News travel slowly, centralized government is inexistent.

[navar100]

It is not a crime for the PCs to be at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day. The bad guys already are.

[MeeposFire]

C'mon, the game is about ADVENTURING ! If I wanted to rule a city I would just buy SimCity X. I think a wise DM should ban that kind of behavior.

Having max HP at the start of every combat is not unbalancing in fact it makes balance easier to obtain since you know that every encounter is going to start with max hp. This means you have a better idea on how the PCs are doing (so you can better design an encounter) and you can make the fight more dangerous and fun since you also know they start with full HP.

By the way you can already do this by RAW just play binders, crusaders, or heck even a truenamer can get it done.

If you haven't noticed many computer RPGs are going this way. For instance dragon age origins has your health and mana/stamina quickly go up after a fight so that every encounter you should start with full resources. This allows the challenge to be from within the encounter.

Even in stock D&D with no effort constant small healing is not powerful in an encounter. The only healing that matters during an actual adventuring part of an adventure (you know the fighting and stuff) are the big heals like say the heal spell.

[Jack_Simth]

Remember : it's the middle age.
News travel slowly, centralized government is inexistent.
Well... parts of D&D are that way.

Be warned, though: With the DMG's city-generation for classed people, once you're at 5th level (the absolute minimum for starting the city-takeover stuffs ... unless you're an artificer, in which case, it's 3rd), you're already higher-level than 75% of the PC class-leveled populace (and 99.9+%, if you include NPC classes) ... and the "lots of money" applies to very nearly all PC classed characters if wealth-by-level suggestions are followed. If they are, that 5th level PC has is expected to have 9,000 gp worth of loot on him.

If there's large numbers of strong organizations of people who specifically track people down and murder them for their loot, then the PC's should be commonly attacked by these people anyway, trap-trick or no.

But yes, PC's trying this should be challenged occasionally by some means or another.

[faceroll]

DON'T DO THIS. Why? Even if RAW you could do this, PCs' sense of danger would be greatly impered by such action. Why do you want them to feel this way? Imagine if Frodo and Sam just had to walk through a grassy meadow to get to the well where they needed to drop the ring. Not as cool as through dreadful swamps and a raging volcano at the end, right?
If you do go with this idea - DON'T make them mobile.


This isn't true at all.
Disregarding the plethora of ways to cheaply and efficiently full heal already in the game, the real threat of combat is dying because you got hit in the face for 40 damage or failed a save vs. being turned into a statue. Being able to replenish 1hp per turn isn't going to make you feel any safer from that hill giant's full attack or a trio of kobold sorcerers spamming fireball.


Honestly, it depends on how you use them. If they're all over the place, then it does all the bad stuff Almagesto was saying. But if they're only available in the middle of big cities... that's a bit different.

No it doesn't, unless you only like to play games with level 1 characters who almost die fighting rats, then have to rest for a full day. As soon as you hit level 3, healing to full outside of combat is extremely trivial, and doesn't trivialize encounters in the least.

I suggest actually PLAYING a game when you actually optimize healing. You'll find that even a persisted mass lesser vigor doesn't make a fight any easier, and things stay dangerous.


I think it could be interesting if you explore the implications of having infinite healing for almost any wound in the broader world rather than simply be a dungeon mechanic.

Mechanically, it wouldn't really matter. You can survive your entire life with 1 out of 100 hp just fine. The big game changers would be traps that healed disease or produced food and water, as those things mechanically kill people/impair them. HP loss only matters when you have less than 1; otherwise, there is no need to be healed after a bar fight and getting stabbed in the stomach, mechanically speaking.

By the time you're bleeding out, a DC15 heal check stabilizes you (which is trivial, even for a level 1 NPC). Healing beds would get you out of a hospital in 5 turns instead of 5 days, but that's it. HP mechanics are quite abstract from things that would actually kill a commoner.

[Gavinfoxx]

You can do a LOT more than making everyone healthy all the time. You can make, you know, Star Trek type tech level, or higher.

Think of repeating traps of these things:

Unseen Servant
Unseen Crafter
Mount
Stone Shape
Fabricate
Magecraft
Wall of Iron
Wall of Stone
Greater Stone Metamorphoses
Endure Elements
Prestidigitation
Create Food and Water
Purify Food and Drink
Good Hope
Make Whole
Lesser Restoration
Panacea
Superior Darkvision
Floating Disk

What does this mean? All items of stone and iron cost nothing because labor involving those is free. All unskilled crafting is free and done by magical summoned crafters. Everyone can do skilled crafting, everyone has invisible helpers following them around, no one needs to sleep, horsepower / work is inifinite, everyone is always healthy all the time, food is infinite and requires no work to be made and tastes great, everyone has perfect hygeine all the time, everyone's equipment is in perfect condition all the time, all infrastructure is made magically in minutes or days bu legions of magically summoned crafters, everyone can haul anything they want with a magic horse or floating disk, if you can get raw materials of anything near anyone with any moderate amount of skill can make any final goods that can made from those raw materials, no matter what stage of processing those materials are in, everyone is in a good mood all the time, and you are no longer living in a medieval stasis world with peasants but in a post scarcity economy where no one has to do any work ever for anything if they don't want to.

Are you SURE you want to open that door by placing it in the player's minds that you can do beneficial repeating traps? Cause they may very well do all of this to your setting... or start asking questions like, 'why isn't there a repeating trap of Mount? That would totally be useful... or heck, Endure Elements!'

[Johel]

{Great stuff}
Are you SURE you want to open that door by placing it in the player's minds that you can do beneficial repeating traps? Cause they may very well do all of this to your setting... or start asking questions like, 'why isn't there a repeating trap of Mount? That would totally be useful... or heck, Endure Elements!'

That's when you are supposed to smile in a suspicious way and say :
"-Good question. I have no idea. Why don't you try ?"

Let the story move along 2 months forward.

The town is now very rich and prosperous.
All that wealth attract an orc invasion, a black dragon raid or anything else.
The traps get destroyed because their components got destroyed in the chaos.
Also, the town is sacked.

And that's when you say, smiling broadly :
"-And that is why the INTELLIGENT and WISE spellcasters don't create such traps... It attracts problems."

[CTrees]

Hrm... I'm not *that* familiar with the rules on making resetting traps, but...

I've seen trapped suits of armor used before. Sigils/runes in the helmet is an old favorite, for instance. Give the tanks magic, resetting traps of cure X wounds inside their breastplates. That's actually an entertaining and cheap way to get a nice regeneration effect, by the looks of it.

[Ravens_cry]

Mechanically, it wouldn't really matter. You can survive your entire life with 1 out of 100 hp just fine. The big game changers would be traps that healed disease or produced food and water, as those things mechanically kill people/impair them. HP loss only matters when you have less than 1; otherwise, there is no need to be healed after a bar fight and getting stabbed in the stomach, mechanically speaking.
By the time you're bleeding out, a DC15 heal check stabilizes you (which is trivial, even for a level 1 NPC). Healing beds would get you out of a hospital in 5 turns instead of 5 days, but that's it. HP mechanics are quite abstract from things that would actually kill a commoner.

The rules are an abstraction that allows us to play a game without rulebooks the size of the universe. Unless, of course, you're playing Tippyverse where RAW is physics, in whichever everyone would keep a bucket of water to drown someone who goes into shock. But for most worlds, getting stabbed in the gut would still want to be treated, fast.
Heal disease "traps" would be very useful I agree.

[LordBlades]

From the PCs perspective such a trap won't make much of a difference. As other's have said, wands of Lesser Vigor are so cheap that they are practically infinite healing.

[Gavinfoxx]

That's when you are supposed to smile in a suspicious way and say :
"-Good question. I have no idea. Why don't you try ?"

Let the story move along 2 months forward.

The town is now very rich and prosperous.
All that wealth attract an orc invasion, a black dragon raid or anything else.
The traps get destroyed because their components got destroyed in the chaos.
Also, the town is sacked.

And that's when you say, smiling broadly :
"-And that is why the INTELLIGENT and WISE spellcasters don't create such traps... It attracts problems."

Yea, but the invasion doesn't work, because the town has the most elaborate system of stone and iron fortifications that anyone has ever seen, and they can't be, you know, starved out in a siege...

[Johel]

Yea, but the invasion doesn't work, because the town has the most elaborate system of stone and iron fortifications that anyone has ever seen, and they can't be, you know, starved out in a siege...

After 2 months, with characters who start at level 1 ?
I seriously doubt it.

The whole point is to show your PC that creating such traps will attract problems as fast as it will attract wealth.
And nothing say "Game Over" like a Black Dragon coming down on the town because he heard rumors of it having recently been flown in gold.

You *can* create magical traps but then you *have* to be able to defend them from other people wanting to seize them OR the wealth they generate.

[Gavinfoxx]

The thing is... it takes a mid level Wizard, Artificer, or something like a Cloistered Cleric with some obscure domains or an Archivist to make most of these traps... For some of them, you need a Wizard AND a Cleric at least...

Any place with these has or had, at least some point, some relatively powerful, benevolent spellcasters aiding the town or village. These powerful people probably had multiple reasons for doing it, such as something like, 'I want everyone in this area to be able to attend my monastery, train the way I say, do what I say, and follow me as High Priest' or something like that.

And not EVERY place is part of an Iron Age, 'always on the brink of being annihilated' situation. This would bring prosperity, sure, as the economy goes from 95% food production to 95% finished goods, but as a DM you aren't OBLIGATED to manufacture reasons why it isn't done. Maybe it's perfectly viable and will bring about the Tippyverse, but it wasn't done because culturally no one thought of the idea?

[Ravens_cry]

Prosperity eventually. But for a generation, at least, you got a lot of out of work farmers. You still need some to make novelty foods for the richer folks, food from Create Food and Drink traps is legendarily insipid. "Wet cardboard" are the words used.

[Slipperychicken]

[Wars fought over trivially inexpensive traps]

Try to remember your history, people. What do nations and civilizations do when someone else finds an easier, cheaper, more effective way of doing things? Do they get a little peeved? Maybe. Do they immediately go to war with these people? Not over an easily replicable <1000gp technology they don't.

They either learn to use/steal/copycat the technology/magic, or be outclassed (and often replaced) by those who do.

Also, if no more resources need to be spent on food production, economic capacity can be used for improving the standard of living rather than basic survival. And all that excess farmland can be used for other things, like residence, wildlife preservation (get all those Druids on your side to help fuel the Tippyverse), and research.

[and Jack, your business model *would* drain the economy... exactly until someone else decides to shell out the startup dough and undercuts your price. Or until a charity or government realizes the value of the traps and starts offering it for free]


EDIT: Need to defend your wealth? All those ex-farmers would be delighted to pick up arms and fight the greenskins (they're usually the first to enlist anyway :smallamused:).

[Jack_Simth]

The whole point is to show your PC that creating such traps will attract problems as fast as it will attract wealth.
And nothing say "Game Over" like a Black Dragon coming down on the town because he heard rumors of it having recently been flown in gold.

Doesn't happen. See, gold does not come from nowhere. After six months of this, there is not more gold in the town than there was initially (except, perhaps, for a fairly small amount from passing travelers who purchase your cheaper-than-normal goods).

What you've got is more and better architecture, trade goods, and things of that nature - not gold.

Prosperity eventually. But for a generation, at least, you got a lot of out of work farmers.
Nah, you hire them to do other stuff, at slightly below prevailing wage, so that only people who are actually out of work will fill the jobs (and those people will take the work, as you can demonstrate that it's a livable wage). The main reason for this is to prevent riots, but as a side effect, it eventually leaves you as pretty much the only employer in town, with everyone doing what you pay them to. Make ranged simple weapons, patrol the wall carrying them... build the city a wall if it doesn't have one already...

You still need some to make novelty foods for the richer folks, food from Create Food and Drink traps is legendarily insipid. "Wet cardboard" are the words used.
Two things:
1) That's part of what the Prestidigitation trap is for.
2) Yes, you're correct in that you'll be keeping some farmers on for novelty foods ... until you've got the Heroes' Feast trap going, anyway.

[Ravens_cry]

Nah, you hire them to do other stuff, at slightly below prevailing wage, so that only people who are actually out of work will fill the jobs (and those people will take the work, as you can demonstrate that it's a livable wage). The main reason for this is to prevent riots, but as a side effect, it eventually leaves you as pretty much the only employer in town, with everyone doing what you pay them to. Make ranged simple weapons, patrol the wall carrying them... build the city a wall if it doesn't have one already...
Just where is this money coming from? You can't get it back from taxes and at 4 million peasants (High Medieval Englands population was 5-7 million, so I am low balling) paid one copper less then the going rate for unskilled labour (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/profession.htm), you got 360,000 gp a DAY to pay these peasants. A. Day.


Two things:
1) That's part of what the Prestidigitation trap is for.
2) Yes, you're correct in that you'll be keeping some farmers on for novelty foods ... until you've got the Heroes' Feast trap going, anyway.
Prestidigitation doesn't change the texture of food, unless your DM OK's it. All you are doing is changing the colour and flavour. Yea, now you got green mint flavoured wet cardboard and red cherry flavoured wet cardboard. Festive!
And heroes feast would get boring after a while. Nothing about it says you can change what the food is or even what it tastes like except the drink.

[Johel]

Doesn't happen. See, gold does not come from nowhere. After six months of this, there is not more gold in the town than there was initially (except, perhaps, for a fairly small amount from passing travelers who purchase your cheaper-than-normal goods).

I said "gold" but also "wealth".
Whether the wealth is gold coins waiting to be used to buy something or any other kind of goods purchased by the locals, it's up to the DM and the players.

Also, you assume cash circulates as fluently as today.
This not the case when traveling from one city to another can take several days or when actual goods are not available in large excess.
So people will hoard their gold until they got the opportunity to spend it.

Let's take the creation of a trap of Remove Disease.
Over two months after the trap's creation, you can bet that every cripple 50 miles around will be flocking to the town, hoping for the "miracle".
Much like pilgrims in middle-age Europe (and even today...)
These people will need food, shelter, entertainment.
Doesn't matter who pay for it :
As long as *somebody* pays, more people will follow the move and settle in town to provide the necessary goods and services.
This means MASSIVE amount of wealth gathered in a single place.

Now, you can't build fortification overnight.
Not without powerful magic.
Wall of Stone is a 5th level spell.
The Lyre of Building requires a 5th level spell to be created.

This means that all these people and there wealth will be inadequately protected until :
A) The trap generates enough wealth to start building the fortifications.
B) The fortifications are constructed.

The point A) is trivial if the healing is not free.
But point B) will take several months.

It's during that laps of time that this very tempting target is attacked.
And that's all you need for an answer to your players, really :
A dragon can fly and cover such distances that any rich and unprotected settlement is doomed.

[Jack_Simth]

Just where is this money coming from? You can't get it back from taxes and at 4 million peasants (High Medieval Englands population was 5-7 million, so I am low balling) paid one copper less then the going rate for unskilled labour (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/profession.htm), you got 360,000 gp a DAY to pay these peasants. A. Day.

You get it from the money that they (and everyone else, just about) is paying you to go through your traps, because you charge admission. As far as coin is concerned, for the long-haul, you must run the business at break even, because there is a relatively fixed amount of the minerals used to make the coins. Really, it's the same as any other major industry. When it comes down to it, cash in = cash out. Business profit by way of building stuff with the motion. Money is the blood of the economy - it only works when it's moving, and using that motion to cause other things to happen.

Take, as a greatly simplified example, a small village that produces everything it needs. There's... oh, let's go with three people in the village, and six coins.

Person 1 makes item A. He can make four units of item A a day.
Person 2 makes item B. He can make four units of item B a day.
Person 3 makes item C. He can make four units of item C a day.

Every person in the village needs one unit of item A, one unit of item B, and one unit of Item C every day.

At the start, everyone has two coins.

Person 1 charges one coin for a unit of item A.
Person 2 charges one coin for a unit of item B.
Person 3 charges one coin for a unit of item C.

On day 1
Person 1 makes four units of item A.
Person 2 makes four units of item B.
Person 3 makes four units of item C.
Item counts post-production: 4, 4, 4
Person 1 spends 1 coin to buy a unit of Item B from Person 2, and 1 coin to buy a unit of Item C from Person 3 (Coin counts: 0, 3, 3)
Person 2 spends 1 coin to buy a unit of Item A from Person 1, and 1 coin to buy a unit of Item C from Person 2 (Coin counts: 1, 1, 4)
Person 3 spends 1 coin to buy a unit of Item A from Person 1, and 1 coin to buy a unit of Item B from Person 2 (Coin counts: 2, 2, 2)
Everyone eats their daily units of A, B, and C.
There is a remainder - each shopkeeper has one unit of their respective product remaining. Nobody has saved any money (and if anyone tries, they've got problems....) but there is a net gain of wealth. If needed, they could support a 4th person until someone gets sick. If needed, they can save up goods for a day when one of them is ill and can't produce.

Now we throw a monkeywrench into the works: Person 4 comes along, with a method to produce four units each of A, B, and C all on the same day. He doesn't bring any coins with him, but that's OK, as he can provide for himself, no problems.

Person 4 (having lots of excess A, B, and C), holds a sale. He gives out a full day's supply (one unit each of A, B, and C) for 1 coin. Person 1, 2, and 3 decide this is a good deal, and each spends a coin on buying stuff from Person 4. Person 4 doesn't spend anything.

Now Persons 1, 2, and 3 try to continue on their merry way... but now person 1 has to wait until person 2 or 3 purchases a unit of item A from him before person 1 can buy his full allotment of B and C from persons 2 and 3. Person 2 has to wait until person 1 or 3 purchases a unit of item B from him before person 2 can buy his full allotment of A and C from persons 1 and 3. Person 3 has to wait until person 1 or 2 purchases a unit of item C from him before person 3 can buy his full allotment of A and B from persons 1 and 2. This is workable, but it's slightly annoying for everyone involved. Things are stable if Person 4 stops here.

Person 4 doesn't stop there. He holds a sale again. He gives out a full day's supply (one unit each of A, B, and C) for 1 coin. Person 1, 2, and 3 decide this is a good deal, and each spends a coin on buying stuff from Person 4. Person 4 doesn't spend anything.

The next day, there's a problem:
Person 1 has no coins to buy anything from 2 or 3.
Person 2 has no coins to buy anything from 1 or 3.
Person 3 has no coins to buy anything from 1 or 2.
Person 4 supports himself entirely, and doesn't need to spend anything.

Assuming *something* prevents person 1, 2, and 3 from reverting to a barter system, and Person 4 doesn't do charity, what happens?

The coins must flow. A buildup of *goods* is fine. If you also produce coins, then a buildup of coins is OK provided it doesn't exceed the production of coins. But whatever form the coins take, they must flow.

This is how the production traps take over a city. They pull the coins out until nobody else can pay employees due to lack of coinage, and then hire everyone who went out of work.

Yes, it's an oversimplified example (for a reason). But it's essentially how it would go ... unless something intervenes.



Prestidigitation doesn't change the texture of food, unless your DM OK's it. All you are doing is changing the colour and flavour. Yea, now you got green mint flavoured wet cardboard and red cherry flavoured wet cardboard. Festive!
And heroes feast would get boring after a while. Nothing about it says you can change what the food is or even what it tastes like except the drink.
It's described as "Ambrosial" - and actually, there *is* something that says you can change what the food is ... it'll take me a while to dig it up, though; it's not in the spot you'd expect, it's about customizing spell effects in general for flavor....



[and Jack, your business model *would* drain the economy... exactly until someone else decides to shell out the startup dough and undercuts your price. Or until a charity or government realizes the value of the traps and starts offering it for free]
Hence adding "without interruption" all over the place when displaying how things will go, and pointing out that the person who's doing this needs to hire people.

But then, business competition just starts up a Tippyverse faster... *who* eventually ends up on top may be indeterminate, but that there will be a head honcho in any given area is very predictable.

[Ravens_cry]

You get it from the money that they (and everyone else, just about) is paying you to go through your traps, because you charge admission. As far as coin is concerned, for the long-haul, you must run the business at break even, because there is a relatively fixed amount of the minerals used to make the coins. Really, it's the same as any other major industry. When it comes down to it, cash in = cash out. Business profit by way of building stuff with the motion. Money is the blood of the economy - it only works when it's moving, and using that motion to cause other things to happen.

Take, as a greatly simplified example, a small village that produces everything it needs. There's... oh, let's go with three people in the village, and six coins.

Person 1 makes item A. He can make four units of item A a day.
Person 2 makes item B. He can make four units of item B a day.
Person 3 makes item C. He can make four units of item C a day.

Every person in the village needs one unit of item A, one unit of item B, and one unit of Item C every day.

At the start, everyone has two coins.

Person 1 charges one coin for a unit of item A.
Person 2 charges one coin for a unit of item B.
Person 3 charges one coin for a unit of item C.

On day 1
Person 1 makes four units of item A.
Person 2 makes four units of item B.
Person 3 makes four units of item C.
Item counts post-production: 4, 4, 4
Person 1 spends 1 coin to buy a unit of Item B from Person 2, and 1 coin to buy a unit of Item C from Person 3 (Coin counts: 0, 3, 3)
Person 2 spends 1 coin to buy a unit of Item A from Person 1, and 1 coin to buy a unit of Item C from Person 2 (Coin counts: 1, 1, 4)
Person 3 spends 1 coin to buy a unit of Item A from Person 1, and 1 coin to buy a unit of Item B from Person 2 (Coin counts: 2, 2, 2)
Everyone eats their daily units of A, B, and C.
There is a remainder - each shopkeeper has one unit of their respective product remaining. Nobody has saved any money (and if anyone tries, they've got problems....) but there is a net gain of wealth. If needed, they could support a 4th person until someone gets sick. If needed, they can save up goods for a day when one of them is ill and can't produce.

Now we throw a monkeywrench into the works: Person 4 comes along, with a method to produce four units each of A, B, and C all on the same day. He doesn't bring any coins with him, but that's OK, as he can provide for himself, no problems.

Person 4 (having lots of excess A, B, and C), holds a sale. He gives out a full day's supply (one unit each of A, B, and C) for 1 coin. Person 1, 2, and 3 decide this is a good deal, and each spends a coin on buying stuff from Person 4. Person 4 doesn't spend anything.

Now Persons 1, 2, and 3 try to continue on their merry way... but now person 1 has to wait until person 2 or 3 purchases a unit of item A from him before person 1 can buy his full allotment of B and C from persons 2 and 3. Person 2 has to wait until person 1 or 3 purchases a unit of item B from him before person 2 can buy his full allotment of A and C from persons 1 and 3. Person 3 has to wait until person 1 or 2 purchases a unit of item C from him before person 3 can buy his full allotment of A and B from persons 1 and 2. This is workable, but it's slightly annoying for everyone involved. Things are stable if Person 4 stops here.

Person 4 doesn't stop there. He holds a sale again. He gives out a full day's supply (one unit each of A, B, and C) for 1 coin. Person 1, 2, and 3 decide this is a good deal, and each spends a coin on buying stuff from Person 4. Person 4 doesn't spend anything.

The next day, there's a problem:
Person 1 has no coins to buy anything from 2 or 3.
Person 2 has no coins to buy anything from 1 or 3.
Person 3 has no coins to buy anything from 1 or 2.
Person 4 supports himself entirely, and doesn't need to spend anything.

Assuming *something* prevents person 1, 2, and 3 from reverting to a barter system, and Person 4 doesn't do charity, what happens?

The coins must flow. A buildup of *goods* is fine. If you also produce coins, then a buildup of coins is OK provided it doesn't exceed the production of coins. But whatever form the coins take, they must flow.

This is how the production traps take over a city. They pull the coins out until nobody else can pay employees due to lack of coinage, and then hire everyone who went out of work.

Yes, it's an oversimplified example (for a reason). But it's essentially how it would go ... unless something intervenes.
:smalleek::eek:
Too many words, read later.



It's described as "Ambrosial" - and actually, there *is* something that says you can change what the food is ... it'll take me a while to dig it up, though; it's not in the spot you'd expect, it's about customizing spell effects in general for flavor....
One word: Habituation. Even the best food tastes boring if that's all you eat.

[Jack_Simth]

:smalleek::eek:
Too many words, read later.
You didn't think it would happen, so I had to stop and spell out why. That is the simple example. Kindly don't ask for a complex one.
One word: Habituation. Even the best food tastes boring if that's all you eat.Yes, but there's a section in either the DMG or PHB where it essentially states that the player is free to make up minor details of how things work - the example was of magic missile, I think... but I'm having trouble finding it....

Ah, there it is - DMG, page 34, 3rd paragraph under "Describing spell effects"

You can let players describe the spells that their characters cast.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think farmer types would be plenty happy to not have the threat of imminent starvation over their heads all the time. They can still farm food stuff, too; now they just have, you know, more incentive to farm for cash crops, and send one of their kids to pick up the day's food each day from the middle of the town.

[Ravens_cry]

You didn't think it would happen, so I had to stop and spell out why. That is the simple example. Kindly don't ask for a complex one.

OK, reading it again, there is no way you will break even though unless everything is bought and sold under your jurisdiction.


Yes, but there's a section in either the DMG or PHB where it essentially states that the player is free to make up minor details of how things work - the example was of magic missile, I think... but I'm having trouble finding it....

Ah, there it is - DMG, page 34, 3rd paragraph under "Describing spell effects"
The player, yes. But a trap is an object. It's not 'their' spell any more. It is not inconceivable that it would produce the same food every time.

[Jack_Simth]

OK, reading it again, there is no way you will break even though unless everything is bought and sold under your jurisdiction.
This is why you pay below standard wages. If most people do not work for you, you are a money sink, and everyone else slowly goes out of business - and you make a hefty profit that way, in actual coin. Once you've got enough of the coins that you're seeing severe economic effects (large scale unemployment) you hire people for below prevailing wage to do stuff for you. During the setup (money sink) period, you make a profit in actual cash. Afterwards, you break even in cash, but have a lot of loose labor for doing whatever you want - trade goods, luxury items, weapons, whatever suits your needs and your temperament. Initially, the profit is in money. Later, the profit is in stuff.


The player, yes. But a trap is an object. It's not 'their' spell any more. It is not inconceivable that it would produce the same food every time.
So you eventually make six or seven different flavors. Or you leave some farming in existence, mostly for spices and assorted organic materials (herding for leathers, cotton for clothing, hemp for rope, trees for wood, and so on). Of course, if the nobles are paying the farmers high prices for luxury foods, and the farmers are paying you for their food, tools, health, and general well-being, and you don't need to make a money route back to the nobles, the nobility will sooner or later lose their economic power base... which happened to much of the European nobility... there's a lot of empty manors in Europe....

[Randel]

Putting an immobile healing device in a temple (or other significant location) would make sense because it encourages people to go there and pay for the benefit of it. Or a temple could create such a device and use it to heal their flock and encourage people to come ("Temple of Pelor, come for the healing, stay for the surmon.").

This would work out great for adventures in the cities or surrounding area because there is the opportunity to get healed up to max if you make it to the spot. However, this assumes you can make it back to the healing spot after the fight.

1. If you get in a fight somewhere and you are at max health then your odds of survival could be pretty good, if you win then its just a matter of getting back to the healing spot to get back to max (or get healing 'in the field'). But there is still the chance you'll get killed while in a battle away from the healing trap.

2. If these things are cheap and easy to make then the bad guys (or anyone) could have them. So the players coming across a stronghold or lair could come across lots of enemies at full health. Keep in mind that a bandit gang with such a device could possibly have a whole bunch more recruits who signed up specifically for the Health Plan. Instead of having a bunch of small time bandit gangs in the area you could have one big bandit gang who all the bit players flock to.

3. If there are two or more groups with these things then these suddenly become resources. If group A is fighting group B then group B might sending some rogues to go disable the other groups healing traps. Or otherwise working to eliminate those. Keep in mind that if you are letting anyone with money walk up to your healing trap than there could be someone working undercover to take it out.

4. With healing traps realtively commonplace then people (or the DM) can adjust their stratagy accordingly. Groups with alot of combat units could field more people in a group and the wounded quickly move out and head back for healing only to return later. The PCs may come across a bunch of bad guys, get in a fight, and see the wounded run off back to camp. Those wounded warn the others, get healed to max, and now the PCs have to face a fully healed up band who are on the alert.

5. On the flipside of the above, people know that getting into a fight now involves dealing with people who are healthy and can just run off to get healed up later, so if they do get into a fight then they want an edge (namely more people in a group, better weapons, better tactics, etc). So encounters get tougher to make up for the improved healing.

6. Even if you eliminate disease and hunger and stuff from your society then someone will think of some reason to start a war. And with less disease and more food then you'll have alot of healthy people wanting something to do. You can either get those people to make art and be civilized and stuff (the pansy option) or you can turn them into an army (the jerk option). Keep in mind again that there's always going to be a jerk somewhere who makes an army and the local pansys will have to deal with it. Oh, and just because there can be high level heroes who can beat up armies doesn't mean that armies are totally useless... sure they can get killed by suitably destructive heroes but then the sutably destructive villains deal with the hereos while the army provides some extra stabbing power and/or slave labor for the villain.



In short, creating resetting utility traps provides infinite resources to whoever controls it. And the guy who controls it generally is whoever has the wealth, power, and ruthlessnes to take it and keep it. While at first the players could make one and get a steady income from it, it will only be a matter of time before someone else makes on and gets income from theirs. Its thus inevitable that a bad guy will get one and use it to further his own evil ends and the heroes will either feel the effects of his boosted minions, have him try to take out their traps, or they have to take out his traps.

Oh, and as for how laborers can pay for these things: Wealth and value come in many forms so they don't have to just pay in gold. Odds are the labhorers will be paying for their healing in chickens or lifestock (imagine people taking animals to the temple for 'sacrifice' or just to pay their healing bills) or by doing work, or attending the surmons of the guy in the temple, or being a part of the towns militia, or in worst case scenarios by doing unmentionable acts for the benefit of the guy in charge.

Defeated bandit: I'm sorry... its just that my wife if very ill and I couldn't afford the healing. They just said I'd have to help rob some travelers on this route and it would be taken care of.

[Jack_Simth]

Randel:
Most of this is perfectly fine, but....


2. If these things are cheap and easy to make then the bad guys (or anyone) could have them. So the players coming across a stronghold or lair could come across lots of enemies at full health.Doesn't the game pretty much assume your opponents will always start with all of their resources anyway?

[jguy]

In the game I am playing in, I have access to a homebrew maneuver from this very board, the Tome of Tactics. It is called Head on Straight and this first level maneuver has made the game sooooo much more fun for us all. It heals 1d6+level (max 10) and removes some very minor status effects. It means we can go for longer games, take on more challenges, and not have to worry about if we should rest or not. Being at full health also means the DM can throw tougher fights at us since he doesn't have to worry about us being low on HP every fight.

[Person_Man]

From a purely mechanical point of view, having some sort of automatic or nearly automatic healing is generally a very good idea. If you know exactly how many hit points players will have, then you can more easily balance your encounters and make them more fun and interesting. It minimizes down time where players are forced to stand around and waiting to be healed, or resting in camp to heal and/or restore spells. It un-clutters inventory, removing the endless shuffle of healing potions/scrolls/wands/medi-gels of different intensities. And it means that no one has to waste character resources/abilities on the non-fun and/or non-combat ability of healing.

Compare the 2nd edition Cleric to the 3rd edition Crusader or the 4th edition Cleric. Or Mass Effect 2 to Mass Effect 1. Or modern game design in general (focused on fast paced combat with frequent auto-saves and/or easy resurrection) to older game design in general (Nintendo Hard (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard) and/or focused on "realism").

[Eric Tolle]

Prestidigitation doesn't change the texture of food, unless your DM OK's it. All you are doing is changing the colour and flavour. Yea, now you got green mint flavoured wet cardboard and red cherry flavoured wet cardboard. Festive!.

I suggest you look up the term "pottage". It was the standard fare of medieval peasants, and next to that, flavored cardboard would indeed be festive.

As for the economic effects, I think the main result of a steady base food supply would be that the peasantry would concentrate somewhat more on luxury and non-food crops and meat animals that can be bartered, in part, for the products created by the traps. There's also a limit to how much wealth can be transferred from the peasantry, because at least in the first couple years, the traps will act as a supplementary food source, not a replacement one. If the trap owners charge too much, then the peasants can go back to farming the next season. It's probably worth pointing out that peasants are likely to be reasonably cautious in adapting a new means of production.

[No brains]

Does anyone know if there is any entry in any supplement that explains the minimum amount of space needed for a magic trap? A trap on a door is feasible. A trap on a ship is feasible. Is there any instance where a magic trap is very small, like on an item carried in your hand?

[bloodtide]

I don't think that a Cure minor wounds trap would have any effect at all.

All it does is cure HP damage, and that would not effect the game very much. Sure, people within say 50 feet of the cure trap will have full hit points, but so what? People in D&D don't die from a loss of HP's, they only die if their HP's get to zero. A 'wounded' person in HP's does not matter. If warrior Joe with 5 HP's gets into a fight and loses 4 HP's, he is perfectly fine. After all, Joe could get them HP's back after just a full day of rest under the care of someone with the heal skill.

Normal folks, such as NPC's, would still die at the same rate as a 'regular' game. Anything that could kill them before, would still kill them.

For player characters, it might have more of an effect, but not much. After 5th level healing items and spells are very common in most games. So having a healing trap won't change that any. Sure the PC's might be at full health, but so will the bad guys. The players will even have it worse as they are traveling.

[Jack_Simth]

Does anyone know if there is any entry in any supplement that explains the minimum amount of space needed for a magic trap? A trap on a door is feasible. A trap on a ship is feasible. Is there any instance where a magic trap is very small, like on an item carried in your hand?

I'm reasonably sure there aren't. See, the trap rules, such as they are, are designed for DM use, not player use. For simulationist reasons, though, traps in 3.5 D&D aren't just hand-waved; there's rules for making them. As the rules for them were intended for DM use (they're in the DMG, not the PHB), they were left relatively rules-lite. When players get there hands on them, you end up with things like "Oh, hey - there's no minimum size listed" or "Oh, hey - there's no minimum time for an automatic reset trap" and things of that nature, and you end up with beneficial "traps" that give full healing to everyone in the party within range, that are both affordable and portable. That's not the intent behind the rules... but it's a consequence of the way they are written.

[ericgrau]

I believe as a magic item the unlimited use cure X wounds item is given as the classic example of an item that could perhaps be made with the custom magic item rules but should never exist.

True, it doesn't affect PCs much except at low levels but it breaks the commoner world in half.

[PirateLizard]

I don't allow them in my games. Healing...trap? What? Get out. :smallyuk:

[Jack_Simth]

I don't allow them in my games. Healing...trap? What? Get out. :smallyuk:
Suppose you were expecting a Commoner Zombie invasion soon, and were preparing for them to shamble down a particular tunnel. Would a trap of Cure Moderate Wounds make sense?

[ericgrau]

They're zombies. I'd have a permanent image of a person with his skull cracked open on the other side of a pit. Later I'd dump some oil in the pit, light, and call it a day. More to the point, the above example is a bit forced.

[Jack_Simth]

They're zombies. I'd have a permanent image of a person with his skull cracked open on the other side of a pit. Later I'd dump some oil in the pit, light, and call it a day. More to the point, the above example is a bit forced.
Only marginally. See, I've had a random map generator come up with such gems as an Inflict Moderate Wounds trap in the same room as a few undead, and a Chain Lightning trap in the same room as a few Flesh Golems.

Given that sort of thing, how far fetched, really, is it to put a Cure Moderate Wounds trap in a place where you welcome the living?

[Kantolin]

Let the story move along 2 months forward.

The town is now very rich and prosperous.
All that wealth attract an orc invasion, a black dragon raid or anything else.
The traps get destroyed because their components got destroyed in the chaos.
Also, the town is sacked.

Orcs: "...what?! Over there, far far away from the orc/human border, there is a city that is WEALTHY! Let us go DESTROY it! Also DESTROY the wealth! DAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

^_^ Actually that's amusing enough of a reason, but like... if they could just go to the city and destroy it, why haven't they already? Like, what happens if you take non-magical-trap methods of making the city wealthy, such as promoting trade, moving in useful artisans, helping build houses, setting up shop yourself... does that automatically spawn orcs to come a'nommin'?

I'm actually okay with infinite out of combat healing. It encourages spell conservation and means we can get back to killing equally as full HP drow bad guys. It also means I can prepare bosses expecting the party to be at full or near-full HP.

I'm entertained, however, by 'No helping townsfolk! Helping people makes them die by orcs and black dragons! You keep your wealth to yourself, MISTER!"

...wouldn't the dragons want the traps themselves and not wreck them? Or just make their own.

[panaikhan]

If my players were going to try any of this 'beneficial trap' nonsense, i'd make the following house-rules.

Beneficial traps effect a person, they do not 'create' anything. (healing traps heal the person, the 'food' traps satisfy the person's need for food for that day, etc etc).
They follow the same limitations as wands (spell level limit, number of charges, etc).
Basically, their only major benefit would be that non-spellcasters could 'set them off'.

[Acanous]

In refference to Moveable traps: There's rules for trapping Spellbooks in CA.
Spellbooks are assumed to be moved.
The traps on the spellbooks continue to work.

Trap books if you want moveable traps.