Mark of Cania borken?

[ben-zayb]

Hi guys, this is my first time to post a thread so please be gentle. :smallbiggrin:

I'd also appreciate any and all tips/suggestions/corrections. :smallsmile:

So here's the deal. I was reading Fiendish Codex II, supposedly checking out the Divine Defiance* feat, when I happened to come across the Mark of Cania (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1848-mark-of-cania.html) feat instead.

Description:
Mark of Cania [General]

Prerequisite: Brand of the Nine Hells, allegiance to Mephistopheles

Benefit: The passionate anger for which Mephistopheles is famed burns brightly in you. Each round when you miss on an attack roll or a target successfully saves against a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability you have cast or used, you gain a cumulative +1 bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks. This bonus lasts until you successfully hit a target or until a target fails a saving throw against one of your spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural effects. For every +1 bonus you gain, you also take a -1 penalty to Armor Class. This penalty disappears when the bonus no longer applies.

Does this mean that as long as I don't attack anyone or use abilities with saves, then my bonuses (sp. boni?) can pile ad infinitum?

I mean, c'mon. Even without the attack and damage roll bonuses, the +WTH? to saves and the +RUSRSBRO? to checks means saves are 95% success, while opposed checks (e.g. grapple), skill checks (e.g. bluff), and ability checks(e.g. initiative) are auto-success (or did I miss something out?) And of course, EPIC skill checks.

And what about the casters then? Especially the factotums/wizards/archivists, who have lots of skill points to take all "trained-only" skill, and all possibilities of playstyle that avoids hits and saves? (at lvl 1 with the right feats or class selection)

Of course nobody will allow it with that ruling, but from a purely mental-exercise-perspective I think it's gold. What are your thoughts?

*BTW I find Divine Defiance pretty neat too, but not broken. Although I thinks it's for the more dedicated counter-ers only (which probably are only few if not non-existent.)

EDIT: Might I add that you need to be lawful evil and a devil to use this prerequisite feat (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-265-brand-of-the-nine-hells.html). But that's something no cheese-bent wizard cannot accomplish, and no self-respecting DM will allow on an average-powered campaign. :smallbiggrin:

[Worira]

Hmm? If you don't attack or use abilities with saves, you don't get any bonus at all. I guess if you really wanted to, you could cast spells on someone who has both a feat and high enough saves to make saves on a 1, but that seems like an awful lot of work.

[Zaq]

Huh. I like it. It's good for skill use, mostly, but hey, still nifty.

That cumulative penalty to AC is tricky, but nothing we can't handle. I mean, the Shock Trooper does it all the time. Admittedly, a good Shock Trooper kills everything in at least a 10' radius around him, but still.

I wouldn't call it broken, but it's a very nifty find.

[ben-zayb]

Hmm? If you don't attack or use abilities with saves, you don't get any bonus at all. I guess if you really wanted to, you could cast spells on someone who has both a feat and high enough saves to make saves on a 1, but that seems like an awful lot of work.

I think as long as you have renewable sources of abilities (reserve feat, invocations, binder su) you can temporarily buff yourself initially so that you save for at least the first 10 activations, because each time you do you also raise your save bonus (to a +10 to saves on the 10th Su activation)

I also think that luck feats and some spells can take care of the eventual 5% to succeed in saves.

There're plenty of ways to raise you AC or save temporarily, and you get increasing returns because of the bonus on this feat. So I think the fact that it stacks indefinitely and almost permanently if you know how to is the main concern. Definitely gamebreaking IMO.

[faceroll]

That's actually from Fiendish Codex II, I believe, and the marks only work for devils. They're actually quite powerful, but they are for powering up Bone Devils and the like.

I think. I am sure there's a way around that requirement. AFB; would anyone mind checking for me?

[Big Fau]

Unless you are intentionally missing (or spamming low-level spells with multiple save DCs), the bonus will be +1 or +2 at most.

Considering the average encounter lasts 3-5 rounds at the mid levels (and only 2 rounds in the early and high levels), that feat isn't that good.

[ben-zayb]

That's actually from Fiendish Codex II, I believe, and the marks only work for devils. They're actually quite powerful, but they are for powering up Bone Devils and the like.

I think. I am sure there's a way around that requirement. AFB; would anyone mind checking for me?

Outsider type Races using PAO twice methinks. Or gating/planar binding a devil, then True Mind Switch (not sure about this one.)

Noted, I added the race type and alignment prereq at the OP. :smallbiggrin:


Unless you are intentionally missing (or spamming low-level spells with multiple save DCs), the bonus will be +1 or +2 at most.

Considering the average encounter lasts 3-5 rounds at the mid levels (and only 2 rounds in the early and high levels), that feat isn't that good.

Was it encounter only? That would certainly clear things up.

I was under the impression that you can use it at downtime since the duration seems to be until you hit or someone fails save from you.

[JaronK]

If you use it as a downtime trick it's awesome... I could absolutely see a skillmonkey character using untrained unarmed strikes to try and hit a friendly tank character while blindfolded (50% miss chance in addition to the basic low chance to hit). Keep going for a while until you've got a +10 or so, then enjoy your new +10 to all skill checks. Totally worth the AC hit.

Likewise, casters could use this in a similar fashion, using no save attack spells that don't roll to hit and steadily building up a huge bonus to saves and checks (it really just says checks! Because that'll blow through SR too... and initiative is a check as well!).

Note that you HAVE to be a devil to take this feat... it specifically says the feat is allowed for non devils, but only NPC non devils. Considering using the savage species ritual to give yourself an appropriate devil subtype, perhaps on a Tiefling.

JaronK

[Big Fau]

If you use it as a downtime trick it's awesome... I could absolutely see a skillmonkey character using untrained unarmed strikes to try and hit a friendly tank character while blindfolded (50% miss chance in addition to the basic low chance to hit). Keep going for a while until you've got a +10 or so, then enjoy your new +10 to all skill checks. Totally worth the AC hit.

Likewise, casters could use this in a similar fashion, using no save attack spells that don't roll to hit and steadily building up a huge bonus to saves and checks (it really just says checks! Because that'll blow through SR too... and initiative is a check as well!).

Note that you HAVE to be a devil to take this feat... it specifically says the feat is allowed for non devils, but only NPC non devils. Considering using the savage species ritual to give yourself an appropriate devil subtype, perhaps on a Tiefling.

JaronK

Against that creature only. That's the limitation. Doesn't matter if you've got a +1 or a +50, it only applies against the creature you've been attacking/targeting to accumulate the bonus.

[ben-zayb]

Against that creature only. That's the limitation. Doesn't matter if you've got a +1 or a +50, it only applies against the creature you've been attacking/targeting to accumulate the bonus.

Where does it say that the bonuses only apply against the creature you're targeting?

[Tyger]

Against that creature only. That's the limitation. Doesn't matter if you've got a +1 or a +50, it only applies against the creature you've been attacking/targeting to accumulate the bonus.


Where does it say that?

[Big Fau]

I am mistaken. I kept readin "a target" as "the target" for some reason.

[Worira]

If you use it as a downtime trick it's awesome... I could absolutely see a skillmonkey character using untrained unarmed strikes to try and hit a friendly tank character while blindfolded (50% miss chance in addition to the basic low chance to hit). Keep going for a while until you've got a +10 or so, then enjoy your new +10 to all skill checks. Totally worth the AC hit.

Likewise, casters could use this in a similar fashion, using no save attack spells that don't roll to hit and steadily building up a huge bonus to saves and checks (it really just says checks! Because that'll blow through SR too... and initiative is a check as well!).

Note that you HAVE to be a devil to take this feat... it specifically says the feat is allowed for non devils, but only NPC non devils. Considering using the savage species ritual to give yourself an appropriate devil subtype, perhaps on a Tiefling.

JaronK

Note that while casters can use no-save, no-attack spells without risking losing the bonus, they can't actually build up the bonus by doing so.

[FMArthur]

You can power yourself up to infinite levels with reserve feats. With the Moment of Perfect Mind maneuver for example, you could just repeatedly use the Shadow Veil reserve feat on yourself and eventually it becomes impossible to fail the save. At around 7th level (depending on your constitution) it can be impossible to even fail on the first save.

[Akal Saris]

As long as we're forced to play devils, this feat is perfect for a fiend of possession.

[Warlawk]

...Each round when you miss on an attack roll or a target successfully saves against a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability you have cast or used...

Quoted for clarification


If you use it as a downtime trick it's awesome... I could absolutely see a skillmonkey character using untrained unarmed strikes to try and hit a friendly tank character while blindfolded (50% miss chance in addition to the basic low chance to hit).

Miss chance does not qualify as 'miss on an attack roll' so it would not trigger the bonus.



Likewise, casters could use this in a similar fashion, using no save attack spells that don't roll to hit

No roll to hit, no activation. No save roll, no activation.

[ben-zayb]

No roll to hit, no activation. No save roll, no activation.
My take on that is if the caster does a "no roll to hit" spell, that means it auto-hits the target and ends the bonus.

However, if I already have +20 bonus and resorted to using no-save/no-attack-roll spells (summons, reverse gravity, etc) whenever I'm in combat, i believe that means the bonus will never be "expended".

Assume the following scenario:
An unoptimized 17th level wizard has a +12+Int to Ref Save via Insighful Reflexes, Nightstalker's Transformation (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=5687)(CAdv) and Cloak of Resistance +5.

Fiery Burst (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1123-fiery-burst.html) (Reserve Feat) DC is 10 + 2(spell level of prepared spell) + Int = 12 + Int, which means the wiz will fail only on a 1 (5%).

Assuming caster level is 17 so, the transformation will last for 17 rounds = +17 to saves, after which the reflex save will become +22+Int (cloak +5, mark of cania +17, insightful reflexes)

I'm sure there are far easier ways to temporarily pump reflex saves on earlier levels, but even for unoptimized builds the trick is still easy to accomplish.

[JaronK]

No roll to hit, no activation. No save roll, no activation.

I meant you charge up the normal way (missing a lot), then only use no save no attack roll spells in real fights so the bonus never goes away.

JaronK

[Warlawk]

Likewise, casters could use this in a similar fashion, using no save attack spells that don't roll to hit and steadily building up a huge bonus to saves and checks


I meant you charge up the normal way (missing a lot), then only use no save no attack roll spells in real fights so the bonus never goes away.

JaronK

Ah, that's just not how it really seemed in your original post.

Really though, of all the RAW ways to break the game, this seems like a lot of effort for not much return. Neat little trick to know I guess, could be fun to use against your players on a devil that is tasked with spying and harassment instead of fighting the group.

[ben-zayb]

Ah, that's just not how it really seemed in your original post.

Really though, of all the RAW ways to break the game, this seems like a lot of effort for not much return. Neat little trick to know I guess, could be fun to use against your players on a devil that is tasked with spying and harassment instead of fighting the group.

Well, it makes Truenamers suck a whole lot less, for one.
Others that i can think of include:
Insta-uber-Diplomancer
Appraise (epic-haggling; mundane detect magic on items)
Knowledge(any)/Spot/Listen/Search/Sense Motive/Gather Info/Decipher Script/Spellcraft/Martial Lore (mundane partial/pseudo-omniscience)
Concentration (mundane still spell when grappled)
Bluff/Disguise/Forgery/Sleight of Hand (fool anyone, make them belief carp)
Hide/Move Silently (mundane invisibility/inaudibility)
Jump/Tumble/Bal/Climb/Esc/Swim (mundane travel to any (x,y,z) surface, even leaves, hair, string, or CLOUDS; squeeze through force cages/wall)
Handle Animal / Ride ("train Arceus")
Craft(any) (pseudo-insta-craft stuff)
Prof(any)/Perform(any)/Use Rope/UMD/Open Lock/Autohypnosis/Disable Device (do other cool stuff)

Oh, and you only have 5% to fail saves and almost always go first in combat. All possible with only 2 feats and a PAO abuse or two. Slap on a bard/summoner/factotum/etc. and you're good to go.

Barely neat few tricks, no?

[mootoall]

Heh, add it to a Factotum chassis for extra skill fun. Pretty good for a skill based character, overall. Maybe I'd use it on a Chameleon, so I don't have to waste two of my precious feats on it ...

[Lateral]

All possible with only 2 feats and a PAO abuse or two. Slap on a bard/summoner/factotum/etc. and you're good to go.

Barely neat few tricks, no?

Does anyone else see a problem with this? If you have to abuse PAO to do this, you might as well just PAO the party fighter into a Gray Render and the party rogue into a Cauchemar.

...Or into a Blackball and a Gloom, for that matter.

[mootoall]

Well this is hardly the most abusive use of PAO. If this is the trick you wanna pull off with it, I don't see why there should be a problem with it. And I think Tieflings have the outsider type anyway, no? It's nothing worse than what you could do with Alter Self, just permanent.

[JaronK]

Eh, I'd like to see this done without PAO abuse. So what's the lowest LA you could do this with? There might be a few decent low LA Devils to work with, and I do wonder if a Tiefling with the right subtype would count...

JaronK

[Ranos]

Nice trick. If you need to be an actual devil though, not just an evil outsider, the earliest I can think of is the Legion devil, at ECL8.

Oh. Or you could use the Succubus monster class from savage species. Can you multiclass out of those ?

Edit : Nope, looks like you can't. Still, at ECL4, you can have a succubus with enough feats to get the mark.

[FMArthur]

If it's doable at any pre-epic ECL it's flat out broken. With a limitless bonus so easily obtainable you could be Sudden Leaping to anywhere in the plane and autosucceed any rushed Diplomacy check to win any person over. That's an easy abuse. I'm sure there's much worse that you would only find out about if you gave this to someone in a game.

[Urpriest]

Nice trick. If you need to be an actual devil though, not just an evil outsider, the earliest I can think of is the Legion devil, at ECL8.

Oh. Or you could use the Succubus monster class from savage species. Can you multiclass out of those ?

Edit : Nope, looks like you can't. Still, at ECL4, you can have a succubus with enough feats to get the mark.

Succubi aren't devils. But I think a few devils do have monster classes.


Does anyone else see a problem with this? If you have to abuse PAO to do this, you might as well just PAO the party fighter into a Gray Render and the party rogue into a Cauchemar.

...Or into a Blackball and a Gloom, for that matter.

Why would a rogue want to be a Cauchemar? ****s and giggles?

[Quietus]

Well, by the SRD definition of Devil ...


Devils are fiends from lawful evil-aligned planes.

So, could you take a base race, make it a Fiendish creature, say it's from Cania, and be done with it?

[Warlawk]

Well, it makes Truenamers suck a whole lot less, for one.
Others that i can think of include:
Insta-uber-Diplomancer
Appraise (epic-haggling; mundane detect magic on items)
Knowledge(any)/Spot/Listen/Search/Sense Motive/Gather Info/Decipher Script/Spellcraft/Martial Lore (mundane partial/pseudo-omniscience)
Concentration (mundane still spell when grappled)
Bluff/Disguise/Forgery/Sleight of Hand (fool anyone, make them belief carp)
Hide/Move Silently (mundane invisibility/inaudibility)
Jump/Tumble/Bal/Climb/Esc/Swim (mundane travel to any (x,y,z) surface, even leaves, hair, string, or CLOUDS; squeeze through force cages/wall)
Handle Animal / Ride ("train Arceus")
Craft(any) (pseudo-insta-craft stuff)
Prof(any)/Perform(any)/Use Rope/UMD/Open Lock/Autohypnosis/Disable Device (do other cool stuff)

Oh, and you only have 5% to fail saves and almost always go first in combat. All possible with only 2 feats and a PAO abuse or two. Slap on a bard/summoner/factotum/etc. and you're good to go.

Barely neat few tricks, no?

Sorry, I tend to forget that in our game no one bothers to try and game the system by using RAW readings of the skills that make little sense in terms of 'reality'. Not saying it's wrong, just that most of the issues that come from skills abuse would never occur at our table.

Above and beyond this, any roll of a natural 20 is an automatic hit and will ruin your bonus stack. While it's possible to get a high ac target with ways to make you reroll or have rerolls of your own to fix the problem.

However, as to my original point... I never said it was useless and no one should do it. I never said there weren't some neat tricks to be pulled with it. What I was saying is that any DM who would allow this cheese in actual play is likely open to so many other game abuses of substantially higher power that the effort to reward ratio for this combo is likely not worth it. That's all I was the point I was trying to make.

[JaronK]

If it's doable at any pre-epic ECL it's flat out broken. With a limitless bonus so easily obtainable you could be Sudden Leaping to anywhere in the plane and autosucceed any rushed Diplomacy check to win any person over. That's an easy abuse. I'm sure there's much worse that you would only find out about if you gave this to someone in a game.

It's not limitless... as soon as you hit, you lose the entire bonus, and you keep getting bonuses to hit. Though you could use any at will ability that requires a save vs a party member with very high saves and the ability to reroll one failed save per X time, and just stop for a while when they have to use that ability...

JaronK

[FMArthur]

It's not limitless... as soon as you hit, you lose the entire bonus, and you keep getting bonuses to hit. Though you could use any at will ability that requires a save vs a party member with very high saves and the ability to reroll one failed save per X time, and just stop for a while when they have to use that ability...

JaronK

There are abilities you can use over and over that give a save, and there are abilities you can use to make sure you can't fail a save. I've already mentioned one reserve feat + save maneuver combination that can let you do this for as long as you want. Getting +NI to basically everything can hardly get more broken, and that's even if you decide to blow it on something in the first round of a combat. You can also just not use attacks and abilities with saves to preserve it forever if you like.

[ben-zayb]

Well this is hardly the most abusive use of PAO. If this is the trick you wanna pull off with it, I don't see why there should be a problem with it.
While I agree that it's waaay less efficient than the Beholder Triple-9s, it's pretty abusive nontheless. I don't see why you can't see any problem with something that at least grants auto-Diplomancy (and that's the tip of the iceberg).


... might as well just PAO the party fighter into a Gray Render and the party rogue into a Cauchemar.
...Or into a Blackball and a Gloom, for that matter.
Well, I'd prefer an uberskillmonkey than either a BSF who excels only at BSF-ing or a nightmare skill monkey with less excellence in skillmonkey-ing or combatting. Dunno what Blackball and Gloom is, but if they're just another one-trick ponies...


With a limitless bonus so easily obtainable you could be Sudden Leaping to anywhere in the plane and autosucceed any rushed Diplomacy check to win any person over. That's an easy abuse.
This. And as I'm not very well-versed with CO, for what I know that just may be scratching the surface.


What I was saying is that any DM who would allow this cheese in actual play is likely open to so many other game abuses of substantially higher power that the effort to reward ratio for this combo is likely not worth it. That's all I was the point I was trying to make.
But the premise from the start is that all this discourse is merely theorycrafting. I don't think any DM I know would allow this thing anyway.

[Urpriest]

Well, I'd prefer an uberskillmonkey than either a BSF who excels only at BSF-ing or a nightmare skill monkey with less excellence in skillmonkey-ing or combatting. Dunno what Blackball and Gloom is, but if they're just another one-trick ponies...


FYI, Gloom is basically the epic level uber-rogue, so the rogue would be better at everything it liked to do. Blackball, IIRC, is a living Sphere of Annihilation, so a one-trick pony, but one that's a good deal more useful than a fighter.

[Aharon]

It's one of the ways to make a non-fail Truenamer.

Described in detail here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10330.msg349251#msg349251).

[Veyr]

Until you get Truenamer 20 and Gate, even making every Truespeak check ever is not going to break the Truenamer. The effects he has access to and the impossibility of getting around the Law of Sequence ensure that.

Making the Truenamer's stupidly-high DCs is the cost of entry. What you get there still isn't that good.

[mootoall]

While I agree that it's waaay less efficient than the Beholder Triple-9s, it's pretty abusive nontheless. I don't see why you can't see any problem with something that at least grants auto-Diplomancy (and that's the tip of the iceberg).


Well Diplomacy is iffy anyway. Where I to DM this type of encounter, there would be a fairly hefty circumstance penalty for you being a slavering devil with a burning red mark spitting fire all over the place. The rules do allow for such penalties, after all.

[JaronK]

Well Diplomacy is iffy anyway. Where I to DM this type of encounter, there would be a fairly hefty circumstance penalty for you being a slavering devil with a burning red mark spitting fire all over the place. The rules do allow for such penalties, after all.

When we're talking about getting a +1000 to Diplomacy, such penalties matter little.

Besides, why be a slavering devil when you could be a succubus or similar?

JaronK

[Veyr]

In that case I think it would need to be an Erinyes, but the effect is the same.

[mootoall]

When we're talking about getting a +1000 to Diplomacy, such penalties matter little.

Besides, why be a slavering devil when you could be a succubus or similar?

JaronK

Then your brand is really burning, you're really terrifying, and you're getting a -980 penalty. Intimidate would get double the bonus though :smalltongue:

The Succubus is a good idea, but at the same time I'd have to say that, since the fluff is about rage, etc., you'd prolly be foaming at the mouth. Not very sexy, if you ask me.


In that case I think it would need to be an Erinyes, but the effect is the same.

True. But see above.