Explain to me the Binder

[Yora]

I think binders sound really cool, their chapter in ToM seems really interesting, and lots of people seem to regard them as a really good class.

But I don't get what they are supposed to do. Are they like more versatile warlocks, are they a kind of psychic warriors, usable monks, or what? How do you make use of two spell-like abilities at will?

[Big Fau]

Ever play Magic the Gathering within the past 5 years?


If so, think of Vestiges as Legendary Equipment. It isn't quite the same, but it's fairly close in concept. Unlike in Magic, a Binder can only "equip" one to four vestiges at most.

Each Vestige serves a different purpose. Some are melee-combat-oriented, others are psudeo-spellcasters, and others are social-related (the infamous Nabeirus is one of the latter).

Edit: And their abilities are almost always SU. Because of this, most of their use-activated abilities require a Standard action to use, and can't be used together.

[Veyr]

They tend to get a lot of passive benefits from Vestiges, though.

A Binder is very much "whatever you want it to be" (aside from Healer or Primary Arcanist; it's not too good at those roles); your daily selection of Vestiges really influences your abilities. They can be good skill monkeys, decent front-line warriors, etc. etc. There's a pretty good Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871830/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook) on them.

[Psyren]

Are they like more versatile warlocks

More this than the other two, though they can actually do those as well if built properly.


How do you make use of two spell-like abilities at will?

With two different standard actions? :smalltongue: Not sure what this question means.

[Yora]

Apart from some minor bonuses, the granted abilities of vestiges are the binders only class features. And at least for the low level vestiges, most of the benefits are passive abilities as well.
Let's say I bind Eurynome. Now animals are friendly, I can walk on water, and enemies who bite me take damage. And I have a huge hammer. Am I supposed to make one standard attack every round with my medium BAB?
Or I bind Savnok and can now wear a full plate armor with DR 1/piercing. I can also swap position with any ally, if I see any reason to spend an action on it. Again, I have no other idea but to make a standard attack every round with my regular morningstar.
I'm sure I'm not getting the real potential of the class, but right now it appears as if a fighter is far more versatile and effective. He got bonus feats and high BAB.

[Big Fau]

Apart from some minor bonuses, the granted abilities of vestiges are the binders only class features. And at least for the low level vestiges, most of the benefits are passive abilities as well.
Let's say I bind Eurynome. Now animals are friendly, I can walk on water, and enemies who bite me take damage. And I have a huge hammer. Am I supposed to make one standard attack every round with my medium BAB?
Or I bind Savnok and can now wear a full plate armor with DR 1/piercing. I can also swap position with any ally, if I see any reason to spend an action on it. Again, I have no other idea but to make a standard attack every round with my regular morningstar.
I'm sure I'm not getting the real potential of the class, but right now it appears as if a fighter is far more versatile and effective. He got bonus feats and high BAB.

Medium BAB actually makes very little difference in combat (with the exception of Power Attack). The Binder actually makes up for it's medium BAB with Pact Augmentations (up to a +5 on attack rolls).

Even better, you can dump Cha because it only determines if you can't hide the Pact Sign or not. So you can pump your Con up nicely, making you durable in combat.

As for your attacks/round, you have 3 with Medium BAB, and can get more. The class isn't exactly the best at combat, but it's good enough to cover for a while.





And the Fighter is not a flexible class by comparison.

[sreservoir]

the fighter can't switch what it's doing the next day.

[Big Fau]

the fighter can't switch what it's doing the next day.

Or the day after. Or the next one. Or the next year, etc etc.

The Fighter can only change himself (that sounds very wrong for some reason) if one of three options are allowed: Retraining (1/level, on level up, and very restrictive), Psychic Reformation (very expensive and drains XP), or the DCFS (INCREDIBLY BROKEN).

[sreservoir]

Or the day after. Or the next one. Or the next year, etc etc.

The Fighter can only change himself (that sounds very wrong for some reason) if one of three options are allowed: Retraining (1/level, on level up, and very restrictive), Psychic Reformation (very expensive and drains XP), or the DCFS (INCREDIBLY BROKEN).

DCFS is generally more expensive than psyref because of the xp costs.

[Big Fau]

DCFS is generally more expensive than psyref because of the xp costs.

True, but DCFS can trade out proficiencies you don't need for actual feats.

[sreservoir]

True, but DCFS can trade out proficiencies you don't need for actual feats.

only armor proficiencies and proficiencies given as bonus feats, though. weapon proficiencies from class aren't actually feats, you just don't need to select them.

[Big Fau]

only armor proficiencies and proficiencies given as bonus feats, though. weapon proficiencies from class aren't actually feats, you just don't need to select them.

You say that like I don't know that. It's still stupidly broken.

[Alleran]

weapon proficiencies from class aren't actually feats, you just don't need to select them.
Play an elf.

Revel in the bonus feats.

[Amnestic]

Even better, you can dump Cha because it only determines if you can't hide the Pact Sign or not. So you can pump your Con up nicely, making you durable in combat.

Bad Pacts also put you at risk of vestige influences, which can be a little crippling if your DM makes you stay on top of them.

[shadow_archmagi]

Bad Pacts also put you at risk of vestige influences, which can be a little crippling if your DM makes you stay on top of them.

That's what makes the binder the BEST class, though! It's so hilarious when you're obliged to steal and only tell the truth

[cagemarrow]

The Binder's Role is largely dependent on what your party needs that day, and how much investment the player wants to put into optimizing as well. They make excellent Party Faces if given a good CHA and you'll want that to avoid failing the binding check as well as to improve the DC's of their offensive abilities.

1-6 level - I've found that at low levels the Binder makes for an excellent tank. Starting with Savnok to get the free Full Plate and DR at very low levels, then once you can afford your own armor binding Dhalver-Nar for the shield self ability for DR 50% + 50% damage to an enemy that you cast this on. Dhalver-Nar is especially good when facing single damage dealing monsters as they will become hesitant to attack you after one or two big strikes. I've used this with a bluff check to stave off TPK's multiple times now with a lie of "Our souls have been bound together, if I die you're coming with me!"

6-10 level - With the Expel Vestige and Rapid Pact making feats you can start the fights with a ranged damage vestige, such as Astaroth the Diabolis which gives you 3/day fireball of your EBL (effective binder level) that does half fire and half vile damage. The Vile damage is important as they enemy cannot heal that without first finding consecrated ground and doing a CL check with healing magic. Then after dropping the evil nukes take a full round action to switch back into tank mode and prepare for the counter attack.

10-20 level - No you've gained access to Zceryll and multiple binds at a time. Out of combat healing is never going to be a problem again and you're defensive abilities have skyrocketed with DR / magic, SR, and the big one Telepathy and Mindsight out to 100ft. Offensively the ranged daze is super effective against flying targets with less than perfect manueverability, such as dragons that have to take a move action each round to stay airborne, and Summon Monster as a sorcerer of your EBL every 5 rounds is god-like for damage and spell like ability usage. You start out with Summon Monster V which means you can summon any of the mephits from SM IV for their abilities, and gain access to more and more powerful elementals and creatures as you continue. At 14th level when you can cast SM VII at will you get access to Deva's and Djinni's that will that give you Raise Dead, Divinations, Holy Smites, and the important one for wealth building Major Creation with permanent Plant materials all as spell like abilities, which means no material components required. Your other binds can be used to grant additional combat/skill usage abilities.

Now with Bloodlines and other ways to increase your EBL you can get to these much quicker. My current character is currently 13th level, but has an EBL of 15 for regular binds, and 16 for Zceryll, because of his moderate bloodline and favored vestige. Next level by also binding Ipos I'll push Zceryll up to 18th EBL and have summon monster IX at will, which gives him spell casting from the Coatl effectively at will. Only downside is longterm spells end when the summon does, but this only applies to summons that actually cast spells, not spell-likes.

Prc's can make things even better.

The Knight of the Sacred Seal is great for any binder who has a favorite vestige, granting you full armor and martial weapon proficiencies, extra defensive abilities, and finally a once per day option to immediately reuse an ability you would normally have to wait 5 rounds to use again. To top it off the 5th level makes you an outsider. Let me repeat that it makes you an outsider so now you can use Alterself to change into any of the outsider forms that grant amazing special abilities.

Anima Mage combined with the Legacy Champion Prc following it can be used to gain full Arcane and Binding abilities, with only a loss of 3 CL total. Now imagine your wizard being able to have his full array of spells, plus summon monster at will, as well as the ability to 3/day cast a spell with any metamagic feat without raising its true spell level. I'm a great fan of persisted Earth Mastery, or whatever the name of the 9th level spell that gives you all the earth moving/creating/destroying spells at will is. On top of that even the other Astaroth bind can give you a Floating Item creation feat, choose any you meet the prerequisites for at the beginning of the day, to use to make whatever you need. Now you don't have to invest your personal feats into being able to make anything except constructs or the other feats that require more than one item creation feat as prereqs.

[Coidzor]

How quickly can one learn a Binder, you think?

[blazingshadow]

Apart from some minor bonuses, the granted abilities of vestiges are the binders only class features.exactly. mechanically they are a good class but fluffwise the binder's main power is to be possesed by washed out has-beens and use a fraction of the power they worked to obtain for your purposes. this could be good or bad depending on how you view this

[cagemarrow]

If you want to learn about binder's the best place I've found is to start here. There's a lot to cover and lots of different ways to play them.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11235.0



exactly. mechanically they are a good class but fluffwise the binder's main power is to be possesed by washed out has-beens and use a fraction of the power they worked to obtain for your purposes. this could be good or bad depending on how you view this

Another way to look at it is borrowing/taking power from creatures so powerful that even the gods couldn't completely destroy them.

[Undercroft]

How quickly can one learn a Binder, you think?
Really doesn't take too long if you start at the lower levels since you're not having to read up everything at once. Then as you reach newer vestige levels you just read up on what your new group of guys can do.


and for a question of my own. What is the source on Astaroth? He sounds like a pretty useful vestige, as i've got a changling binder villain pretending to be a sorcerer (karsus + staff of fire ftw, with focolor for lightning strikes for the rule of cool feel) and it'll likely mesh with with my ideas for that character.

[Person_Man]

The Binder is fairly complicated. The key points:

The Binder gets a string of passive mental defenses and modest buffs just for taking levels of Binder. Immunity to Fear, Slippery Mind, Immunity to Energy Drain and Negative Levels, Mind Blank, and a scaled Pact Augmentation that you can change every day (Initiative, hit points, attack, saves, or whatever). While it's not amazing, Mind Blank, a +10 bonus to Initiative is actually a fairly good reason to stay in the class and not go into a PrC. Binder 20 is a perfectly playable Tier 3 build.

But the main event is vestiges. Each vestige gives a suite of 4 or 5 powers. Of those, 2-3 tend to be passive buffs, and the remaining 1-2 are a special power or attack that you can use once every 5 rounds. This is the Binder's unique niche in 3.5 D&D.

Vestiges can do a huge variety of things. Basically any role you can think of. Melee, battlefield control, sneak, diplomancy, summoner, blaster, etc. But you only get 1 vestige at 1st level, 2 at 8th, 3 at 4th, and 4 at 20th. (Assuming that you go strait Binder and don't multiclass for better armor or Skills or go Binder/Sorcerer/Anima Mage for spells). So realistically you're going to fill one or two roles.

You can change vestiges every morning. You are not saddled with 1st level spells that you will never use. Every 2-3 levels you gain access to new and more powerful vestiges, and so it's fairly common to change roles as you gain levels, or as the campaign demands it.

In general, it's just an awesome class. You just have to know what to look for.

[cagemarrow]

There are two versions of Astaroth, they even make a joke about there being multiple creatures out there that have claimed that name.

Astaroth the unjustly fallen is from the Cityscape web enhancement

Astaroth the Diablous is from Dragon 357


Here's a download link to a PDF with the complete list of additional 3.5 legal vestiges. http://www.multiupload.com/EI7G1POIUD

It's very useful to keep alongside the Tome of Magic while you play.

[Undercroft]

Sweet, thanks for the pdf link. Gonna be so handy (especially since i'm planning to play a binder when it's not my turn to DM anymore)

[MeeposFire]

They tend to get a lot of passive benefits from Vestiges, though.

A Binder is very much "whatever you want it to be" (aside from Healer or Primary Arcanist; it's not too good at those roles); your daily selection of Vestiges really influences your abilities. They can be good skill monkeys, decent front-line warriors, etc. etc. There's a pretty good Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871830/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook) on them.

Actually you can make a decent healer but you wont do it as an in combat healer (which most of us do not advise us to do anywya). Using Buer or tenebrous with a divine feat you have at will healing to bring your whole party to full HP after every combat. If you are the only healer then I reccomend going halfing and pciking up dragonmark feats of healing. Using these you can eliminate status conditions, get access to heal spells for in combat healing, and the ability to use revivafy.

[Zaq]

You ever play an Incarnate? They're kinda similar. Because of your feats and your equipment, whatever that may be, you'll probably have one or two chosen roles you specialize in . . . but if you need something else? By god, you can do it.

And I would strongly disagree with the assertion that the Binder can dump CHA if you don't care about making good pacts. I will remind you that all of a Binder's save DCs are based on CHA, and unlike certain classes, a Binder has enough good effects that offer a save that they should probably care about that. I guess you can choose to ignore them, but really, why would you want to?

[Asheram]

If you want to learn about binder's the best place I've found is to start here. There's a lot to cover and lots of different ways to play them.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11235.0




Another way to look at it is borrowing/taking power from creatures so powerful that even the gods couldn't completely destroy them.

Now, a little question about the legitimacy about the new vestiges. Are they well executed or are some just overpowered for the level they are?

... I don't trust dragon/dungeon/pazio that much.

[Psyren]

And I would strongly disagree with the assertion that the Binder can dump CHA if you don't care about making good pacts.

But you can dump Cha. The point isn't that there are many good effects that rely on Cha - the point is that there are many that don't, and if you have bad rolls or low point buy, you can still go with a gish build (Str/Con) and be highly effective and survivable.

Besides, the DM will have so much fun screwing with you through bad pacts, he'll want you to be a Binder in every campaign :smalltongue:

[Big Fau]

... I don't trust dragon/dungeon/pazio that much.

Wise instinct, they aren't known for being good at balancing class features/feats/items.

[sreservoir]

although wotc isn't all that great at it either.

[cagemarrow]

I've found them all to be equally balanced, except for Zceryll which is really the best vestige before epic. Zceryll however is from an official Wotc web enhancement rather than the paizo, dungeon, or dragon sources. While no errata was released for it the creator has publicly stated that the Summon Monster ability is supposed to take 1 round to cast, instead of a standard most SN abilities get, and can only be used for one creature at a time. Instead of summoning multiple lower level ones at once. With this change my group has found that it doesn't overshadow other Tier 2 classes within combat.

With Zceryll the binder is brought up to a tier 2, without it is a solid tier 3 class.

With downtime it gets a little more useful as the summons can be used to produce a whole slew of useful items and unlimited healing. Of course this is limited by the sources of Summon Monster you have available.

With Core at SM IX you have access to the Leonal to get Heal every 5 rounds, as well as a Coatl which casts as a 9th level sorcerer with access to sorcerer and cleric spell lists.

Book of Exalted Deeds has the most good aligned summons with useful spell like abilities, one at SM IX that casts spells like a 12th level cleric, one as a 12th level wizard, one that gets reincarnate, and multiple with raise dead and divination.

Fiend Folio has a number of useful ones as well particularly the Devas which as previously mentioned get healing, raise dead, and divination as spell likes

[Essence_of_War]

Aside on the binder handbook,

At BG, it is in need of some editing and some cleaning up. Would it be considered acceptable to RP, with ample credit of course, at gitp with appropriate editing? Are there rules about this sort of thing?

[MeeposFire]

I've found them all to be equally balanced, except for Zceryll which is really the best vestige before epic. Zceryll however is from an official Wotc web enhancement rather than the paizo, dungeon, or dragon sources. While no errata was released for it the creator has publicly stated that the Summon Monster ability is supposed to take 1 round to cast, instead of a standard most SN abilities get, and can only be used for one creature at a time. Instead of summoning multiple lower level ones at once. With this change my group has found that it doesn't overshadow other Tier 2 classes within combat.

With Zceryll the binder is brought up to a tier 2, without it is a solid tier 3 class.

With downtime it gets a little more useful as the summons can be used to produce a whole slew of useful items and unlimited healing. Of course this is limited by the sources of Summon Monster you have available.

With Core at SM IX you have access to the Leonal to get Heal every 5 rounds, as well as a Coatl which casts as a 9th level sorcerer with access to sorcerer and cleric spell lists.

Book of Exalted Deeds has the most good aligned summons with useful spell like abilities, one at SM IX that casts spells like a 12th level cleric, one as a 12th level wizard, one that gets reincarnate, and multiple with raise dead and divination.

Fiend Folio has a number of useful ones as well particularly the Devas which as previously mentioned get healing, raise dead, and divination as spell likes

Funny that most people back in the day considered the online stuff more official than the Dragon and dungeons stuff.

[Asheram]

although wotc isn't all that great at it either.

I like to believe that WotC has atleast a minimum of discussion with "qualified" personel to approve material before it gets published.
I don't have the same faith about the others.

[cagemarrow]

Personally I don't think it would be a problem to copy and build upon the existing handbooks as long as credit is given. We're all in this to play the game and anything that makes it easier is a good thing. :)

Besides the handbook there was built on previous handbooks anyway.

[Psyren]

I like to believe that WotC has atleast a minimum of discussion with "qualified" personel to approve material before it gets published.

They must have been out sick for the Truenamer, Shadowcaster, Soulknife, Soulborn, Divine Mind, Healer...

[HappyBlanket]

I'd also support updating the handbook :D I mean, not that it wasn't helpful, but it's pretty difficult to navigate through the awry spoiler tags. Plus, not all of those combinations are really helpful.

[Essence_of_War]

I'd also support updating the handbook :D I mean, not that it wasn't helpful, but it's pretty difficult to navigate through the awry spoiler tags. Plus, not all of those combinations are really helpful.

I know right! There is a lot of great stuff, but I think it could really do with a touch-up with respect to formatting/editing.

[Yora]

I think you could just rewrite any online texts you like. And when you mention the author and source of the original text, it also follows the standards of proper manners. However, it might be a good idea also to check with one of the mods if they are cool with it.

[Big Fau]

Aside on the binder handbook,

At BG, it is in need of some editing and some cleaning up. Would it be considered acceptable to RP, with ample credit of course, at gitp with appropriate editing? Are there rules about this sort of thing?

As far as I know (and since I've never written a handbook in my life), there are only if the person is still actively contributing to the handbook (seems to be the status quo for BG to WotC). From the looks of it, the author of that handbook hasn't been online in 5 months, so it should be free game.

[Yora]

And I think even that was an attempt to make a rewrite of the original handbook.

[Essence_of_War]

I think I'll go ahead and pm Glyphstone about it to check on if that is ok or not.

[Asheram]

They must have been out sick for the Truenamer, Shadowcaster, Soulknife, Soulborn, Divine Mind, Healer...

*coughs* Mistakes were ofcourse made. On both scales on the power level. I'm not going to make excuses for them just for liking them a little better.
But I still do trust them a little more.

[Yora]

When an ability says "you can not use this ability again for 5 rounds" and I use an ability in round 1, can I use it again in round 6 or round 7?
Case 1 would be "once in every 5 rounds", while case 2 would be "can not be used in the 5 rounds following your turn".

[Big Fau]

*coughs* Mistakes were ofcourse made. On both scales on the power level. I'm not going to make excuses for them just for liking them a little better.
But I still do trust them a little more.

No, they just overvalued abilities that are actually very underpowered. Full BAB is a common such overestimation.

[cagemarrow]

I'll have to remember to send along my compiled list of Vestiges and summons. If you want to PM me I can email copies of what I have to you. They're currently in Open Office format.

The Vestiges is a simplified stat block of the Vestige, bind dc, influence and sign, plus the granted powers. All of them consolidated down to a 2 page document.

The summon list is a write up of all legally summon-able monsters with the pseudonatural template pre-applied. This one is in progress and doesn't have everything completed yet. I'm up to 49 pages of stats for monsters in it so far.

[Asheram]

No, they just overvalued abilities that are actually very underpowered. Full BAB is a common such overestimation.

I was thinking of examples like Truenamer and Soulknife vs Prestigeclasses like Planar Shepherd and initiate of the sevenfold veil..

But my apologies, I had no intention of derailing the discussion, my initial words about the new vestiges were about their balance when compared to the original in Tome of Magic. The comments on that I don't trust the publishers for dragon and pazio was merely an afterthought.

[HappyBlanket]

Oh, Thurbane gave me a nice list of compiled vestiges just yesterday.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11208775&postcount=5

[MeeposFire]

There are also epic vestiges. Those are really sweet.

[Veyr]

For updating the handbook... I don't know what the general ettiquette was at Wizards', but personally I think that unless the author has given you express permission to do so, you should not, credit or no. I mean, by definition, anyone who has created something has copyright to that material. No, posting it online does not make it public domain. That means the author has the right to dictate when, where, how, etc. the material is reproduced or redistributed.

And while he probably wouldn't mind, you can't assume he wouldn't. That, to me, is exceptionally rude. It basically says that the effort he put into writing it "doesn't count" (because you are not according him the copyright he deserves by dint of having created something).

So while I'd love to see an updated handbook, I would only want to see it with the original author's blessing. If he cannot be reached... I think it's best to just let it lie, or create a new one from scratch and link his. It's really not fair to take his work without his permission.

[MeeposFire]

Well technically that material is not copyrighted since nobody actually went and did that. The biggest issue is a respect one such as how does the community perceive it and how does the board's rules feel about it.

Oddly though the author does not own that handbook, WotC does. technically anything posted on the WotC message boards is owned by WotC as per their policy and user agreement.

[Zaq]

Well technically that material is not copyrighted since nobody actually went and did that.

IP law + Internet = tar pit, as far as clarity is concerned, but I've been led to believe that if you make something, you own the copyright on it. Period. It's much harder to enforce it if you don't go down and officially register it, but it's still your copyright.

No comment how this interacts with user agreements or any of that, of course.

[MeeposFire]

IP law + Internet = tar pit, as far as clarity is concerned, but I've been led to believe that if you make something, you own the copyright on it. Period. It's much harder to enforce it if you don't go down and officially register it, but it's still your copyright.

No comment how this interacts with user agreements or any of that, of course.

Clarity is certainly lacking and considering how much is "stolen" on the internet I would not think that such a "copyright" would be upheld often. But on the case of WotC boards they definitely at least make you sign something saying they get what you write and may use it which is why some are squeemish about writing stuff there. Whether it would hold in court I don't know I am not a legal expert.

Regardless you should be able to use the handbook though if you want to do it the "correct and legal" way you would cite the information and provide a works cited-bibliography at the end (depending on what kind of manual of style you prefer).

[Optimator]

The first time I made a Binder it was a goblin with lowish Dex and Str and maxed Cha. Kind of a mistake. Luckily I went into Anima mage after a Sorceror level or two. If I were to make a binder now I would put 14 in Str, Dex, Con, and Cha. Neglecting physical fighting isn't a great option since sooo many vestiges boost combat abilities.

[Psyren]

The first time I made a Binder it was a goblin with lowish Dex and Str and maxed Cha. Kind of a mistake. Luckily I went into Anima mage after a Sorceror level or two. If I were to make a binder now I would put 14 in Str, Dex, Con, and Cha. Neglecting physical fighting isn't a great option since sooo many vestiges boost combat abilities.

Indeed - while it is possible to make a "caster Binder," relying on Cha, vestiges with magical attacks, and Karsus/Astaroth to craft staves and such - pure Binder is not suited to such a tactic. You will do best on this route if you have some magic to fall back on, which pushes you into either Anima Mage, Tenebrous Apostate or both.

[HappyBlanket]

The first time I made a Binder it was a goblin with lowish Dex and Str and maxed Cha. Kind of a mistake. Luckily I went into Anima mage after a Sorceror level or two. If I were to make a binder now I would put 14 in Str, Dex, Con, and Cha. Neglecting physical fighting isn't a great option since sooo many vestiges boost combat abilities.

Yeah, I've heard lots of nightmares about first time Binders dumping their combat attributes. But it's INT and WIS that ought to be dumped; the Binder doesn't consult them for any of it's abilities, so at worse it loses out on a few skill points, or gets a penalty to Will Saves... But when you have Vestiges that grant +16 to skill checks, and a class that boosts Will Saves, who cares?

Speaking of stats. I humbly ask for advice :3
I have a Binder with 14/14/16/10/08/18. What should I prioritize; CON or CHA?

[MeeposFire]

Yeah, I've heard lots of nightmares about first time Binders dumping their combat attributes. But it's INT and WIS that ought to be dumped; the Binder doesn't consult them for any of it's abilities, so at worse it loses out on a few skill points, or gets a penalty to Will Saves... But when you have Vestiges that grant +16 to skill checks, and a class that boosts Will Saves, who cares?

Speaking of stats. I humbly ask for advice :3
I have a Binder with 14/14/16/10/08/18. What should I prioritize; CON or CHA?

Depends on what vestiges you want to specialize in. The more time you spend using abilities with saving throws as your main attacks the more cha you want. I tend towards more martial endeavors so I tend towards boosting con as extra HP is always good.

[FMArthur]

Point buy supports lots of mediocre scores much better than a few high ones, anyway. In 32 point buy you can run a 14 14 16 12 8 14 Binder, no problem. You can dump Int to 8 to bump something else up to 16, but going from 3 to 1 skill point per level hurts when you're trying to be the guy who can do any job. Wisdom and Dexterity are the only stats I would ever feel secure in dumping as a Binder, and I'd still rather keep my Dex than get a measly +1 somewhere else.

[JaronK]

I've found them all to be equally balanced, except for Zceryll which is really the best vestige before epic. Zceryll however is from an official Wotc web enhancement rather than the paizo, dungeon, or dragon sources. While no errata was released for it the creator has publicly stated that the Summon Monster ability is supposed to take 1 round to cast, instead of a standard most SN abilities get, and can only be used for one creature at a time. Instead of summoning multiple lower level ones at once. With this change my group has found that it doesn't overshadow other Tier 2 classes within combat.

Where did the creator say that? I've never seen it.

JaronK

[Undercroft]

odd thing is i've always interpretted Zcyerl as needing a full round to summon since it's emulating the spell, and even with those changes she's still the best of the vestiges (pre-epic ofc).

Anyways, thought i'd throw in an especially fun/cheesy trick i found when i toying around with ideas for one of my villains. The Mind Leech symbiont from the fiend folio.

IIRC it gives a mind blast and a variety of mind control powers (dominate monster, suggestion, etc) at will be causing int damage when used (which balances out the at will nature of these abilities to some degree). Add in naberius and his ability healing and you've essentially got all the pros with none of the cons.
TLDR, grab a mind leech and use naberius for the same reasons a hellfire warlock takes a 1 level dip into binder.

I'd like to warn you though that your DM may end up hurling books at you for breaking his game though. I stuck it on a villain since i needed a reliable way to justify his mind controlled minions (and i love symbionts).

[Zaq]

odd thing is i've always interpretted Zcyerl as needing a full round to summon since it's emulating the spell, and even with those changes she's still the best of the vestiges (pre-epic ofc).

Anyways, thought i'd throw in an especially fun/cheesy trick i found when i toying around with ideas for one of my villains. The Mind Leech symbiont from the fiend folio.

IIRC it gives a mind blast and a variety of mind control powers (dominate monster, suggestion, etc) at will be causing int damage when used (which balances out the at will nature of these abilities to some degree). Add in naberius and his ability healing and you've essentially got all the pros with none of the cons.
TLDR, grab a mind leech and use naberius for the same reasons a hellfire warlock takes a 1 level dip into binder.

I'd like to warn you though that your DM may end up hurling books at you for breaking his game though. I stuck it on a villain since i needed a reliable way to justify his mind controlled minions (and i love symbionts).

Zceryll may be the most easily abused vestige, but Naberius is definitely the one with the farthest-reaching unintended consequences. For several reasons.

[Psyren]

odd thing is i've always interpretted Zcyerl as needing a full round to summon since it's emulating the spell, and even with those changes she's still the best of the vestiges (pre-epic ofc).

Zceryll gives you a binder ability called "Summon Alien" that draws from the Summon Monster lists - however, it never actually includes the necessary phrase "as the spell." Without that, by RAW it defaults to the standard ruling regarding Binder abilities - standard action (and supernatural) unless otherwise noted.

It's reasonable to make it take a full-round action as the spell does, but that would be a DM ruling.

Not that it really matters even if you do make it a full-round action - Binder abilities never provoke and never require concentration checks, so even focus-firing him won't stop the monster from showing up.

[Veyr]

Well technically that material is not copyrighted since nobody actually went and did that.
This is very false. The act of creating something gives you copyright to it, period. You don't need to register it, you don't need to claim it, you don't need to do anything beyond having created your own, original work.

Proving your copyright in a court of law makes it prudent to register it, so there's no ambiguity there, but I'm guessing no one here is claiming to have actually written that handbook first?


Oddly though the author does not own that handbook, WotC does. technically anything posted on the WotC message boards is owned by WotC as per their policy and user agreement.
OK, that is something, but in reality: the concept of an End User License Agreement is, from what I understand, on extremely thin ice, legally (as in, it's never been tested in a court of law, and many lawyers think it would be thrown out if it ever was), especially when it involves people signing away their rights (i.e. it is extremely unlikely that any court is going to accept "having checked the 'I agree' box" as a true, legal waiver of your copyright; that sort of thing normally requires a notarized and signed contract).

This is what I've heard, anyway; I'm not a lawyer and I'm not trying to give anyone actual legal advice. Just conversation. But I think in any case we're veering rather close to the board's rules against giving legal advice.

[cagemarrow]

Zceryll's Summon Alien ability was supposed to mimic the Summon Monster spell in all ways except for the ability to get multiple lower-level creatures (not a Cust-Serv answer, but from the designer himself):
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13128772&postcount=121

The link there leads to the forum post from the creator where he explains his intentions. As far as I know this is the only place it ever came up and was never released officially.


I'm personally a huge fan of both Naberius and Zceryll. I use both extensively with my current character and fully believe his current versatility and power are due solely to these two vestiges.

[Asheram]

Thinking about the binder. Malphas "Bird’s Eye Viewing" how do you interpret that ability? Is the bird able to move and fly?

[HappyBlanket]

Thinking about the binder. Malphas "Bird’s Eye Viewing" how do you interpret that ability? Is the bird able to move and fly?

Well, yeah. Why wouldn't it?

This is actually the first time I've heard of the bird potentially being flightless. It's a pretty big nerf... Turning a rangeless scrying tool into a skill bonus. Then again, with Malphas being accessible in your first few levels of Binder...

Eh. I'd keep it a scrying tool.

edit: First has an r, Happy.

[Asheram]

Well, yeah. Why wouldn't it?

This is actually the first time I've heard of the bird potentially being flightless. It's a pretty big nerf... Turning a rangeless scrying tool into a skill bonus. Then again, with Malphas being accessible in your fist few levels of Binder...

Eh. I'd keep it a scrying tool.

It just felt a bit odd when it appears so early with an apparent unlimited range (within 24 hours of travel)...
So it felt a bit like the range should be 0 for some reason. Especially with how you can interpret the words "The bird appears perched on your shoulder."
And flight/mobility is never actually mentioned in the text

[FMArthur]

You summon a raven, with raven statistics, and control its actions. That's flight. A low level Binder has no other class features but his vestige for the day. With Malphas, all you have is scouting. Nothing wrong with being good at it.

[Arbane]

Why play a Binder?

You get to be a character from the Persona games. Which is cool. :smallbiggrin:

[HappyBlanket]

Why play a Binder?

You get to be a character from the Persona games. Which is cool. :smallbiggrin:
<33333333

I knew it! I knew I wasn't the only one! Ha ha ha! And everyone at school said I was crazy!

[thompur]

<33333333

I knew it! I knew I wasn't the only one! Ha ha ha! And everyone at school said I was crazy!

Doesn't mean you're not. :smallwink: