What Tier is Master of Many Forms?

[Lord_Gareth]

The question's right there in the thread title - what tier would a Druid 10/Master of Many Forms 10 end up as? I've got a lot of interest in the concept, so I want to figure out where exactly it sits so I can plan accordingly.

[Shadowknight12]

Tier 0.5.

Meaning, Tier 0 if you're easily startled or Tier 1 if you're not.

[Lord_Gareth]

Tier 0.5.

Meaning, Tier 0 if you're easily startled or Tier 1 if you're not.

MoMF does not advance spellcasting, meaning that at most they've got 5th level spells.

[Techsmart]

If memory serves, the master of many forms is a tier -1 PRC, meaning it would bring druid from a tier 1 to a tier 2. MoMF is a solid prc for wildshape-focused characters, but offers no spellcasting progression, which can be a big problem.

[Godskook]

Zeal has it listed as +1 for Rangers, -1 for Druids.

[Talya]

If memory serves, the master of many forms is a tier -1 PRC, meaning it would bring druid from a tier 1 to a tier 2. MoMF is a solid prc for wildshape-focused characters, but offers no spellcasting progression, which can be a big problem.

It does bump a wildshape ranger up a fair bit, though.

[Yuki Akuma]

Master of Many Forms is Tier -1 when entered with a Druid.

So it'd end up a solid Tier 2, which isn't bad.

Entered with a wildshape Ranger, it's Tier +1.

[Shadowknight12]

MoMF does not advance spellcasting, meaning that at most they've got 5th level spells.

No, but you get the (Ex) abilities of whatever you turn into, and your wildshape options expand immensely. A spell does not solve a problem because it is a spell, it solves a problem because it has the right effect. You are not getting spells, but you're getting effects all the same. You just have to go book-delving to find the right creature for any given encounter.

[Yuki Akuma]

No, but you get the (Ex) abilities of whatever you turn into, and your wildshape options expand immensely. A spell does not solve a problem because it is a spell, it solves a problem because it has the right effect. You are not getting spells, but you're getting effects all the same. You just have to go book-delving to find the right creature for any given encounter.

It's still -1 for a Druid and +1 for a Ranger. Druid spells are just that good.

[Lord_Gareth]

No, but you get the (Ex) abilities of whatever you turn into, and your wildshape options expand immensely. A spell does not solve a problem because it is a spell, it solves a problem because it has the right effect. You are not getting spells, but you're getting effects all the same. You just have to go book-delving to find the right creature for any given encounter.

This solution is not viable at my table, because we've only got access to a small number of books. Granted, I've got plenty of options in those books, but I'd like to point you to the fact that printed (Ex) abilities are always strictly less versatile and useful than printed (Su) and (Sp) abilities, especially outside of combat.

That being said, I do have MM1, 2, and 5 to draw from, so it's not like I'm starved for ideas.

[Shadowknight12]

It's still -1 for a Druid and +1 for a Ranger. Druid spells are just that good.

Hmmm. If only because they've stopped publishing monsters.


This solution is not viable at my table, because we've only got access to a small number of books. Granted, I've got plenty of options in those books, but I'd like to point you to the fact that printed (Ex) abilities are always strictly less versatile and useful than printed (Su) and (Sp) abilities, especially outside of combat.

That being said, I do have MM1, 2, and 5 to draw from, so it's not like I'm starved for ideas.

Oh, then they're most definitely right. Tier 2.

EDIT: It doesn't matter if a (Su) or (Sp) ability is more useful or versatile. If (Ex) gets the job done, it still counts as solving the problem.

[Yuki Akuma]

Hmmm. If only because they've stopped publishing monsters.

No, really. If they kept publishing more and more monsters, they'd still also be publishing more and more Druid spells, expanding their options significantly more than a few new monsters.

[Lord_Gareth]

EDIT: It doesn't matter if a (Su) or (Sp) ability is more useful or versatile. If (Ex) gets the job done, it still counts as solving the problem.

My point is that an (Ex) ability will almost never solve the problem at hand, dude.

[Talya]

No, really. If they kept publishing more and more monsters, they'd still also be publishing more and more Druid spells, expanding their options significantly more than a few new monsters.

Yeah. While MoMF does boost wildshape, wildshape is a druid's second most powerful ability. Spellcasting is first, and wildshape never ever ever passes it.

They also lose progression with their animal companion, which isn't exactly weak either.


Let's face it, a druid 17 get Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm), which makes them a far more powerful shapeshifter than MoMF ever becomes.

[Lord_Gareth]

Yeah. While MoMF does boost wildshape, wildshape is a druid's second most powerful ability. Spellcasting is first, and wildshape never ever ever passes it.

They also lose progression with their animal companion, which isn't exactly weak either.

Damn, you're right. Is there any way to keep the animal companion up to par?

[Calintares]

Why would you take more than 7 levels of MoMF? you'd be better off taking some levels in Warshaper.

Of course, if you pick up Draconic Wild Shape you get a nice boost in power, and if you get Assume Supernatural Ability you can break the game because you can do just about anything, including pulling a Pun-Pun.


My point is that an (Ex) ability will almost never solve the problem at hand, dude.

don't be so sure about that. You'd be surprised at how many situations you can solve by turning into a Will-o'-wisp. And becomming a Tendricious is extremely usefull defensively. Mimics of course are incredibly versatile for utility and that's only using MM1.

[Lord_Gareth]

Why would you take more than 7 levels of MoMF? you'd be better off taking some levels in Warshaper.

Of course, if you pick up Draconic Wild Shape you get a nice boost in power, and if you get Assume Supernatural Ability you can break the game because you can pull a Pun-Pun.

What and the who now? Must be in books I don't own.

I'm taking all ten levels for thematic reasons and because it'll be easier to fly past the DM that way.

[Shadowknight12]

No, really. If they kept publishing more and more monsters, they'd still also be publishing more and more Druid spells, expanding their options significantly more than a few new monsters.

Point taken.

[Akal Saris]

MM 1, 2, and 5 have most of the monsters that you'd probably want to turn into anyhow :smalltongue:

[Calintares]

What and the who now? Must be in books I don't own.

I'm taking all ten levels for thematic reasons and because it'll be easier to fly past the DM that way.

Draconic Wild Shape is from the Draconomicon and allows you to use [su] abilities of dragons, try it with shadow dragons in order to do some serious level draining.

Assume Supernatural Ability is from Savage Species and if your DM allows you to take it than the campaign-world is doomed. It's stupidly powerfull.

[Talya]

A level 17 druid can wildshape, at will, as many times a day as they feel like in a three hour time frame, into any creature, of any size, type or subtype, up to 17 HD. (climbing to 20HD at 20, and pretty much at will, all day.) These forms will get all Ex and Su abilities. This wildshape is a free action, and the action also heals the target as if they had rested for 8 hours.

The single spell Shapechange is more powerful at shapeshifting than the entire MoMF class put together, and druids can cast it starting at level 17. Ultimately, a druid gains nothing from MoMF, but loses a whole lot.

[Lord_Gareth]

I know this, Talya. I know. There's no real reason to take MoMF from that standpoint. But I'm taking it anyway, so I'd like to reiterate my latest question: how can I keep my animal companion up to par?

[Shadowknight12]

I know this, Talya. I know. There's no real reason to take MoMF from that standpoint. But I'm taking it anyway, so I'd like to reiterate my latest question: how can I keep my animal companion up to par?

There are feats out there (aimed at rangers) who give your druid levels a boost with regards to your animal companion. Not sure how effective they are in the long run. BoED has Exalted Companion, IIRC, too, for a little extra boost (and immunity to the [Affect] Animal line of spells).

[Talya]

Natural bond will give you +3 to your druid level for animal companion purposes.

[Aron Times]

Obligatory link for druid threads:

Foolish girl! I am a druid. I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)

[Morph Bark]

Damn, you're right. Is there any way to keep the animal companion up to par?

Complete Adventurer has Natural Bond for a feat that, IIRC, increases effective Druid level by 3 for Animal Companion purposes.

Alternatively, get a Wild Cohort. Now you have one that is up to par but gets no spellsharing and one that is as strong as a Ranger's pet.

[Talya]

Complete Adventurer has Natural Bond for a feat that, IIRC, increases effective Druid level by 3 for Animal Companion purposes.

Alternatively, get a Wild Cohort. Now you have one that is up to par but gets no spellsharing and one that is as strong as a Ranger's pet.

well, if you went druid 13/MOMF 7, and took natural bond...you'd end up with 7th level spells and an animal companion equal to a standard 16th level druid's. And Wild Cohort, too! It's not terrible, by any means.

[Lord_Gareth]

Curiosity: why stop at level seven of MoMF?

[Calintares]

Curiosity: why stop at level seven of MoMF?

Because that's the level you gain Extraordinary Wild Shape, the ability with the most versitality by far. Besides, Oozes don't really have all that much to offer, neither does elementals. Dragons are also a bit underwhelming for their HD and you can get the benefit by picking up Draconic wild shape. Also, Diminuitive and Gargantuan wild shape are not all that usefull. In short, you don't gain enough to justify not taking levels in something else. A good class if you want to get the most out of wild-shaping would be warshaper

[MeeposFire]

Shadow elementals I could see being considered good what with their natural incorperealness.

[Lord_Gareth]

Because that's the level you gain Extraordinary Wild Shape, the ability with the most versitality by far. Besides, Oozes don't really have all that much to offer, neither does elementals. Dragons are also a bit underwhelming for their HD and you can get the benefit by picking up Draconic wild shape. Also, Diminuitive and Gargantuan wild shape are not all that usefull. In short, you don't gain enough to justify not taking levels in something else. A good class if you want to get the most out of wild-shaping would be warshaper

Can't take Draconic Wild Shape, remember? Plus there's some oozes we've got access to that would be highly interesting....

[Calintares]

Dragons at the very least are not very interresting without their (su) abilities. Without their breath attacks and spell-like abilities the only distinguishing feature about dragons are their speed. But it's nothing compared to the sheer utility offered by e.g. a will-o'-wisp

[Talya]

Dragons at the very least are not very interresting without their (su) abilities. Without their breath attacks and spell-like abilities the only distinguishing feature about dragons are their speed. But it's nothing compared to the sheer utility offered by e.g. a will-o'-wisp
The Exalted Wildshape feat (BoED) allows you to keep the (su) abilities of your wildshape. If you're playing a heroic type, it's probably worthwhile in a case like this.

[Gnaeus]

No, but you get the (Ex) abilities of whatever you turn into, and your wildshape options expand immensely. A spell does not solve a problem because it is a spell, it solves a problem because it has the right effect. You are not getting spells, but you're getting effects all the same. You just have to go book-delving to find the right creature for any given encounter.


Because that's the level you gain Extraordinary Wild Shape, the ability with the most versitality by far.


Druids already get the extraordinary abilities of what they shift into. Enhance Wildshape, a 4th level druid spell in the SPC gives that ability. A 7th level druid can do it, compared with a 12 ECL MoMF. A 12th level druid could fill all his 4th level spell slots with it and cast it between combats, thereby gaining virtually all the joy of the MoMF class, while retaining 5th and 6th level spells (and full progression AC).

[Calintares]

Druids already get the extraordinary abilities of what they shift into. Enhance Wildshape, a 4th level druid spell in the SPC gives that ability. A 7th level druid can do it, compared with a 12 ECL MoMF. A 12th level druid could fill all his 4th level spell slots with it and cast it between combats, thereby gaining virtually all the joy of the MoMF class, while retaining 5th and 6th level spells (and full progression AC).

Except that such a Druid would only be able to change into animals, and those don't have all that many interresting [ex] abilities in the first place, so without investing further feats he wouldn't get all that much out of wildshaping.

The most interresting [ex] abilities of animal are blindsense, sprint and other minor things.

Conversely, MoMFs get immunity to magic that allows SR, natural undispellable invisibility, perfect flight, the ability to disguise themselves as furniture, fast healing, regeneration, rust, several immunities, and of course the ability to disguise themselves perfectly by turning into a humanoid, just so long as it's not like their original form.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Just got to say if you got access to the MM which has the War-troll, you must have at least level 7 in MotMF, a save or be dazed based on STR.... when you get access to a lot of str? Sign me up.

Though I have to say I would prefer a Wildshape Ranger 10/MotMF 10 over Druid entry; better BAB that way.

[MeeposFire]

If I recall the war troll starts with a decent sized str and if you combo that with your items (wild clasps and the like) you can get some nice DCs especially since you can get a lot of attacks if you build for it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If the OP goes druid, I believe bite of the were-tiger is a 5th level spell, so he could wildshape into a Wartroll and then cast BotWT (War trolls have hand and vocal cords, so they should be able to cast even without natural spell)

[Lord_Gareth]

Okay, before any further advice is given, these are the only books I can use. Do not suggest anything outside of these books.

MM 1, 2, and V, Libris Mortis, BoED, ComArc, CompAdv, CompWar, PGtF, FRCS, Races of Dragon, ToB, BoVD, and ELH.

Those are it. That's the end-all, be all of my book availability.

However, I did figure out that if I take all ten levels of MoMF, I can turn into a Bone Ooze.

Can you say self-propelled carpet bombing?

[Gnaeus]

Except that such a Druid would only be able to change into animals, and those don't have all that many interresting [ex] abilities in the first place, so without investing further feats he wouldn't get all that much out of wildshaping..

Investing further feats? Seriously? You set 2 feats on fire just to enter Master of Many Forms. Lets replace Endurance and Alertness with Frozen Wild Shape and Draconic Wild shape. Or Aberrant wild shape if you prefer. Then you have plenty of available [ex] abilities. Druids can also wildshape into plants and Elementals. And lots of other things via spells.


The most interresting [ex] abilities of animal are blindsense, sprint and other minor things.

Desmodu Bats with their good flight, great stats, and 120 blindsight is one of the best scouting forms in the game. Fleshraker + venomfire does absurd damage. Dire Tortoise is absurdly broken.


Conversely, MoMFs get immunity to magic that allows SR, natural undispellable invisibility, perfect flight, the ability to disguise themselves as furniture, fast healing, regeneration, rust, several immunities, and of course the ability to disguise themselves perfectly by turning into a humanoid, just so long as it's not like their original form.

Immunity to magic and undispellable invisibility would be better if you could actually contribute meaningfully while you had those properties. Perfect flight and fast healing are easy for a druid. Immunities are easier for a druid than a MoMF. Wild shape humanoid is usually worse than a hat of disguise. That is a terrible list for giving up 7 levels of druid. Disguise yourself as furniture? seriously? Why would you need to disguise yourself as furniture when you can already turn into a mouse and hide, or meld with the wall, or hide yourself with magic?

The only good reason to play MoMF is if druid is too powerful for your game and you are self nerfing. Pretending that it is equivalent to druid levels in versatility or power is ludicrous.

[Calintares]

Investing further feats? Seriously? You set 2 feats on fire just to enter Master of Many Forms. Lets replace Endurance and Alertness with Frozen Wild Shape and Draconic Wild shape. Or Aberrant wild shape if you prefer. Then you have plenty of available [ex] abilities. Druids can also wildshape into plants and Elementals. And lots of other things via spells.


I don't believe OP has any of those feats availible.


The only good reason to play MoMF is if druid is too powerful for your game and you are self nerfing. Pretending that it is equivalent to druid levels in versatility or power is ludicrous.

If you realy want to go nuts on a pure power-scale with all feats allowed than just give me a minute to pick up Assume Supernatural ability, change into a Sarrukh (which AFAIK is impossible for a druid to without shapechange) and change my name to Pun-Pun, then we can talk about pure power.

Other than that, saying that there's no good reason to not play pure druid is silly, and it reeks of tier superiority. It sounds as if that same reasoning would be used to tell anyone that plays something other than T1 classes are doing it wrong. What if someone actually enjoys the flavor of being able to wild-shape into almost anything?

Even if it's not on the level of druid without Assume supernatural ability it's not like MoMF would ever be underpowered. Even the worst MoMF would probably be high tier 3 if not higher, and would be able to help solve just about any possible situation.

[Gnaeus]

I don't believe OP has any of those feats availible.

Your argument was "druids need extra feats to do this". I disproved it by pointing out the feats you burned. Druids are still more versatile, even with OP's list.



Other than that, saying that there's no good reason to not play pure druid is silly, and it reeks of tier superiority. It sounds as if that same reasoning would be used to tell anyone that plays something other than T1 classes are doing it wrong. What if someone actually enjoys the flavor of being able to wild-shape into almost anything? .

Fair enough. If they want to do it for purely fluff reasons, thats fine also.

If, however, they choose MoMF for added versatility, they have chosen very poorly. If they do so based on your advice, they have been misled. A druid wildshaped into an animal, with natural spell and his spells, is more versatile and more powerful than a MoMF at every point along the power curve.

[Calintares]

Actualy, the OP can't get the [ex] abilities of anything until shapechange because he don't have the SPC. So if he wants to use any of those abilities before level 17 then MoMF is the only way.

Besides that, the feats used to enter MoMF are early level feats that can be taken as early as level 1. the Feats you pointed out compete with other higher-level feats such as Natural Spell, Aberrant Wild Shape even takes up two feats to get. (though it'd probably be worth it. Aberrations are stupidly good.)

[Gnaeus]

Actualy, the OP can't get the [ex] abilities of anything until shapechange because he don't have the SPC. So if he wants to use any of those abilities before level 17 then MoMF is the only way.

And MoMF doesn't get them until 12. So it is 5 levels of [ex] availability, compared with 5 levels of 6-8th level spells. Are you still trying to defend that MoMF has an advantage in this comparison?


Besides that, the feats used to enter MoMF are early level feats that can be taken as early as level 1. the Feats you pointed out compete with other higher-level feats such as Natural Spell, Aberrant Wild Shape even takes up two feats to get. (though it'd probably be worth it. Aberrations are stupidly good.)

Thats ok, There are plenty of other awesome feats I can take. Metamagic feats. Item Creation feats. Combat feats like improved trip, grapple, or improved natural attack that will help me while wildshaped. Companion spellbond, because I will actually have a meaningful AC all the way through level range. Then Natural Spell at 6, Frozen WS at 9, Draconic at 12. I still have the same number of feats as you. A better AC. And much stronger/more varied abilities.

[Yuki Akuma]

Improved Grapple isn't an awesome feat. Improved Trip is, sure - more attacks at your full BaB are always good. But how often do you actually grapple?

[Gnaeus]

Improved Grapple isn't an awesome feat. Improved Trip is, sure - more attacks at your full BaB are always good. But how often do you actually grapple?

If I am a bear or a great cat (something with good size and str and imp natural grab), pretty darn often. Its fun for locking down enemies while your pet eats their face.

In any event, more often than I will use Endurance.

[Yuki Akuma]

If I am a bear or a great cat (something with good size and str and imp natural grab), pretty darn often. Its fun for locking down enemies while your pet eats their face.

In any event, more often than I will use Endurance.

For a start, it requires Improved Unarmed Strike - if you're in wildshape most of the time, you don't have any use for that feat.

Secondly, Improved Grab obviates half the effects of the feat - allowing you to make touch attacks to initiate a grapple without provoking an Attack of Opportunity. So all it boils down to is spending two feats on a +4 to grapple checks - when you're already getting more than that simply from your increased size and Strength.

[Gnaeus]

For a start, it requires Improved Unarmed Strike - if you're in wildshape most of the time, you don't have any use for that feat.

That one is entirely debatable. But I will admit that many DMs do not allow the kung fu bear. Personally, I think it is RAW legal, but I wouldn't try it in most groups.


Secondly, Improved Grab obviates half the effects of the feat - allowing you to make touch attacks to initiate a grapple without provoking an Attack of Opportunity. So all it boils down to is spending two feats on a +4 to grapple checks - when you're already getting more than that simply from your increased size and Strength.

20% difference can be significant if you plan on being a melee druid. It's listed in the druid's handbook, so it isn't like I'm the only person who thinks so. I will admit that it probably isn't the top of the optimization ladder, (That would be Craft Wondrous Item). Also, don't forget that there are times when your opponent has a really high AC, so you are more likely to land the grapple than the claw that would initiate it for free.



Improved Unarmed Strike - Some GMs will allow you to make all of your iterative attacks as unarmed attacks and then make all your natural attacks as secondary attacks. If you can do that, super, but don't expect to be allowed to have a karate-chopping bear in most games. In general this is just a prerequisite feat.

Improved Grapple - If you do a lot of grappling, you'll want this. A dire bear-shaped druid with Improved Grapple will win grapples with anything his size, and many things larger.

[Calintares]

And MoMF doesn't get them until 12. So it is 5 levels of [ex] availability, compared with 5 levels of 6-8th level spells. Are you still trying to defend that MoMF has an advantage in this comparison?

I never claimed that a MoMF would have any direct advantage compared to straight druid (without pulling off Pun-Pun.) because not a whole lot of things can. But MoMF does have a niche that's not easily emulated by druids. There's also far more games that reaches level 12 than level 17, so that difference is not insignificant.

[Cog]

For a start, it requires Improved Unarmed Strike - if you're in wildshape most of the time, you don't have any use for that feat.
Unless you have a Mouthpick weapon or the like, I doubt you're doing much else with your iterative attacks.

[stainboy]

Because that's the level you gain Extraordinary Wild Shape, the ability with the most versitality by far. Besides, Oozes don't really have all that much to offer, neither does elementals. Dragons are also a bit underwhelming for their HD and you can get the benefit by picking up Draconic wild shape. Also, Diminuitive and Gargantuan wild shape are not all that usefull. In short, you don't gain enough to justify not taking levels in something else. A good class if you want to get the most out of wild-shaping would be warshaper

Thanks to the half-troll template, a MoMF can turn into dragons from level 2. Turns out a half-troll anything is a giant. Half-Troll can also be applied to outsiders. Management is not responsible for injuries from thrown DMGs.

(E: apparently this trick is not a RAW exploit, it's just regular old cheating. Nevermind.)

[Calintares]

Thanks to the half-troll template, a MoMF can turn into dragons from level 2. Turns out a half-troll anything is a giant. Half-Troll can also be applied to outsiders. Management is not responsible for injuries from thrown DMGs.

you can't wild-shape into anything with a template.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Thanks to the half-troll template, a MoMF can turn into dragons from level 2. Turns out a half-troll anything is a giant. Half-Troll can also be applied to outsiders. Management is not responsible for injuries from thrown DMGs.

Wasn't there a rule against polymorphing/wildshaping/alternate form-ing into templated creatures?

[stainboy]

you can't wild-shape into anything with a template.

Really? Aww.

E: Yeah, I missed that in the Alternate Form text.

[Calintares]

Really? Aww.

(Well, actually, I'm happy that rule exists. Where is it?)

Wild-shape is based on polymorph which is based on alter self, and in the description for alter self it says that



You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that emplate doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

[sonofzeal]

Wild-shape is based on polymorph which is based on alter self, and in the description for alter self it says that
Because that's not confusing at all. =P

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Wild-shape is based on polymorph which is based on alter self, and in the description for alter self it says that

this is debatable, you go to the trouble of finding a rare creature with/out a template and study it you should be able to turn into it.

and wildshape is not polymorph, its alternate form and it dont mention anything about templates. Since a template would change the base form to something the user is resricted against, but MOMF gets around that.

[MeeposFire]

Alternate Form

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

Quote form the SRD you can't utilize templates with anything built on alternate form.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

yes that because a template would move the form to a restricted list, when you add a template to a animal it becomes a magical beast.

[MeeposFire]

yes that because a template would move the form to a restricted list, when you add a template to a animal it becomes a magical beast.

Nothing in that quote mentions anything you are saying. It says flat out alternate form does not allow you to change into anything with a template. Now specific feats or whatnot might make exceptions but alternate form does not allow it and it has nothing to do with changing type.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Nothing in that quote mentions anything you are saying. It says flat out alternate form does not allow you to change into anything with a template. Now specific feats or whatnot might make exceptions but alternate form does not allow it and it has nothing to do with changing type.

take this view a template changes the base form a creature, since most things that have alternate form have a strict set of forms they can turn into, a template would make a creature restricted to them


and what happens if a common creature in the area, you see alot. you decided to transform into to hide. then the DM goes sorry no can do see they have templates.

[Veyr]

crazyhedgewizard, I'm sorry, but you are wrong. I mean, it straight-up says "you cannot be a templated creature". What more do you want it to say?

[MeeposFire]

take this view a template changes the base form a creature, since most things that have alternate form have a strict set of forms they can turn into, a template would make a creature restricted to them


and what happens if a common creature in the area, you see alot. you decided to transform into to hide. then the DM goes sorry no can do see they have templates.

It specifically says you cannot take the form of a creature with a template. Unless you use something that specifically gives an exception to the rule you can't do it.

[TehLivingDeath]

Whatever you do TS, just make sure to have a compilation of all forms you think are useful, with all abilities listed and your adjusted combats stats. Might take a while to get it all done, but it seriously beats the alternative of disrupting gameplay to read the MM. Speaking from experience, doing the latter sucks.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

i dont think you understand what im saying, creatures or characters that have alternate forms are limited in what they choose, ie a lvl 6 druid can only transform into ordinary animals, but if a template is add to that animal it is no longer ordinary, do u see that? that is why im saying that the rule about no templates should not be included under alternate forms rule.

[Divide by Zero]

i dont think you understand what im saying, creatures or characters that have alternate forms are limited in what they choose, ie a lvl 6 druid can only transform into ordinary animals, but if a template is add to that animal it is no longer ordinary, do u see that? that is why im saying that the rule about no templates should not be included under alternate forms rule.

Whether it should be included is irrelevant. The fact is that it explicitly says "no templates," so doing otherwise would be a significant house rule and therefore is beyond the scope of this discussion.

[Yuki Akuma]

i dont think you understand what im saying, creatures or characters that have alternate forms are limited in what they choose, ie a lvl 6 druid can only transform into ordinary animals, but if a template is add to that animal it is no longer ordinary, do u see that? that is why im saying that the rule about no templates should not be included under alternate forms rule.

You cannot use alternate form to assume the form of a creature with a template.

This is the explicit rule for alternate form.

It doesn't matter how you think it should work, you cannot use it to assume the form of creatures with templates. At all. Ever. No, not even then.