Spell Suggestions for a Tier 3 Transmuter and Tier 3 Conjurer

[wayfare]

Hey all:

I'm working on a Tier 3 versions of the Conjurer and Transmuter for a game taht is only going to run 10 levels. These classes will be designed to be competitive with the Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, and Warmage. But before I make with the designing, I was wondering if anybody could give me some insight on the spell list I should grant for these classes. Conjuration and Transmutation are the most easily abused schools, so any input would help as to what I should allow and deny in the spell list.

Many Thanks

--Wayfare

[Shadowknight12]

The decisions I'd make in your situation:

Conjuration doesn't get to Call anything (outside some very specific rituals, if you feel like being generous. Use the UA format for them). Conjuration doesn't get any spells that deal damage. Move those to Evocation. Summoning can stay, Teleportation can stay, I'd move Healing to Necromancy but that's personal taste. Creation spells are turned into very specific rituals. Every spell allows SR and a save. If it doesn't offer a save, pick one of the three (usually Reflex) and go with it. Bottom line: Conjuration should not be inescapable. A creature with a high enough SR and high enough saves should be unaffected by the spell. If the creature saves or it can't bypass SR, the creature can act as though the spell wasn't there.

Transmutation doesn't get alter self, polymorph effects or shapechange outside specific rituals (again, from UA). Transmutation also doesn't get to deal damage. Move those to Evocation. Casting times are increased judging on the duration of the spell (Rounds/level remains as it is, 1 minute/level takes a minute to cast, 10 minutes/level takes 10 minutes to cast, 1 hour/level takes 1 hour to cast, etc). The same "must allow SR/saves" applies here as well. Also, I would make magic less reliable in a fight. In old folklore, running water was said to wash away magic. A creature submerged in running water would be affected by a Dispel Magic effect, with a caster level depending on the size of the body of water. This can be good (if you've been affected by a Slow or Flesh to Stone effect) or bad (if you've been affected by Haste or Fly). I would also make some materials (such as cold iron and silver) make a weak dispelling check on every hit, if they're weapons, or offer a bonus on SR/saves, if they're armour or shields.

[The Glyphstone]

That's more like a total reworking of the magic system, on top of crippling the theoretical transmuter class - 1-minute casting time on Bull's Strength, really?


OP:
Give the Conjuration-caster Summoning spells (I'd say Monster+Nature's Ally both), Wall and Fog spells, Teleports, and some Advanced Learning to pick up bonuses.

The Transmuter should get anything that buffs, debuffs, or SoD's without dealing HP damage - whether you include the Polymorphs or not is taste, though they are overpowered.

[Shadowknight12]

That's more like a total reworking of the magic system, on top of crippling the theoretical transmuter class - 1-minute casting time on Bull's Strength, really?

Yeah, and one full hour to cast Mage Armour. I really, really dislike the idea of the wizard who only needs a few seconds to cakewalk through an encounter. If he wants to be an unstoppable bastion, he should spend quite a long time preparing. I'm not saying that he shouldn't, only that it should cost him greatly.

And besides, there are plenty of transmutations that last only rounds/level (and no, they do not become 1-round-actions, they remain as they are). Plus, remember that there are plenty of magical items that make those spells redundant, because they do not stack.

[wayfare]

Thanks for the input so far.

One quick question. I'm thinking of delaying access to Fly until spell level 5 and eliminating overland flight all together (the game only goes up to level 10, so it doesn't matter anyway).

Is this too much of a nerf?

[FMArthur]

Keep in mind that the schools need to cover what goes missing after you cut wizards out of your games to still be able to accommodate its playstyles (in less overpowering form, obviously), and be prepared to trim down the abilities of other casters/monsters/races if you do decide to cut something entirely that was previously well-integrated into the game.

For example, Conjuration needs to be able to summon, needs to have some battlefield control, and they need to have teleportation. That does not mean that you should include Planar Binding, Evard's Black Tentacles and the actual Teleport spell to cover these things.

To start, I would include all Summon Monsters. Then include fog based spells that are not Stinking Cloud or Solid Fog (or derivative of them), and some form of physical, terrain-altering BFC, like Grease or walls (I'd aim for at least 2 of those per spell level). Dimension Door and its Greater cousin as well as the Benign/Baleful Transposition spells (Spell Compendium) are pretty much all you need to cover teleportation if you don't want to include the campaign-altering long range Teleport. Does that pretty well cover a Conjurer class? Just the SM line would be enough to be T4. Even the less awesome BFC spells are good enough that you'd slip into T3 easily.

[dextercorvia]

Don't forget that Beguiler, etc. have a few spells that are outside their specialty. Conjurers should probably get a couple of abjurations -- magic circle seems thematic. They should be able to dismiss or banish things. Transmuters should probably get some enchantment or illusion ability. (Think of it as changing their minds.) Not a lot, but maybe invisibility or confusion.

[wayfare]

Don't forget that Beguiler, etc. have a few spells that are outside their specialty. Conjurers should probably get a couple of abjurations -- magic circle seems thematic. They should be able to dismiss or banish things. Transmuters should probably get some enchantment or illusion ability. (Think of it as changing their minds.) Not a lot, but maybe invisibility or confusion.

My Tier 3 (hopefully) abjurer got some conjuration, so the tier 3 conjurer will get some abjuration as you suggested.

I was actually thinking Necromancy for Transmutation crossover.

BTW: I'm thinking of calling the Transmuter "The Patterner," and the Conjurer "The Convoker"

[dextercorvia]

What I would do for the Patterner is give them Alter Self as a 4th level spell, just raising the HD cap to 15. Leave out the rest of the Polymorph line except for Trollshape, etc. Having the alternate modes of movement, and the NA bonus aren't game breaking then.

Edit: Let them keep Baleful Polymorph as well.