Build suggestions. VOP + Monk + ??? [3.5e]

[Dusto]

I looked at a few of the VOP threads and they get off track pretty quick it seems. I am looking for some build suggestions for a Vow of Poverty Monk build, but it definitely doesn't need to focus on Monk. I am thinking of a mix of Swordsage, possibly more classes. I know there is a feat similiar to weapon finese that uses Wisdom instead, not sure if that would be better to use.

30pt Build, no flaws, Human, level 9. Character would be based a little bit off Ken from Street Fighter II.

Thanks in advance!

[Seerow]

Tashalatora + Psion or Psiwar.

[Avalon2099]

Tashalatora + Psion or Psiwar.

I've hear of this but never seen it? What's this all about?

[Dusto]

Thanks, but I should have added something. A lot of our combats are indoors or in confined areas, so size increasing isn't really an option. Well, it could be, but more often than not, it would be a disadvantage to me :)

[Jude_H]

There's more than one psionic power. The psychic warrior power list has teleports, self-buffs, swift movement/pounce options, healing, bonus damage and utility options; basically everything the Monk needs to tie itself together as a class.

[Avalon2099]

Tashalatora + Psion or Psiwar.

I've hear of this but never seen it? What's this all about?

[mootoall]

Also, unless you're in five foot corridors, small spaces are excellent for expansion. Block the entire corridor, and have fun whaling on people who can't escape your reach.

[Zonugal]

Tashalatora + Psion or Psiwar.

Ardent is another option, but psionics is the appropriate option here.

But if psionics rubs you the wrong way there is always Sacred Fist.

[Big Fau]

I've hear of this but never seen it? What's this all about?

You know those Monk PrCs that advance Monk abilities like Unarmed Strike and AC Bonus? Tash is a feat that does the same, but to a single Psionic class (chosen when you take the feat).

Thus a Monk 1/Ardent 19 with Tash has most of the important abilities of Monk 20 (Unarmed Damage, AC bonus, Speed Bonus) while never needing more than 1 level in Monk.

[Dusto]

Ardent is another option, but psionics is the appropriate option here.

But if psionics rubs you the wrong way there is always Sacred Fist.

Sacred Fist looks intersting... Hmm... I'm looking at a couple of options I think.

Cleric1/Monk2/Swordsage1/Sacred Fist5

or

Cleric1/Monk2/Sacred Fist6

Is the one level dip into Swordsage going to be worth it? I really like the ignore difficult terrain stance, and getting unarmed strike for free.

[MeeposFire]

You know those Monk PrCs that advance Monk abilities like Unarmed Strike and AC Bonus? Tash is a feat that does the same, but to a single Psionic class (chosen when you take the feat).

Thus a Monk 1/Ardent 19 with Tash has most of the important abilities of Monk 20 (Unarmed Damage, AC bonus, Speed Bonus) while never needing more than 1 level in Monk.

I think it also improves flurry.

[Zaq]

Strictly speaking, you don't actually have to take Monk levels for Tashalatora to work. It just requires that you have taken the feat Monastic Training . . . which doesn't actually have any prereqs. Your levels in Monk and your levels in (let's say) Ardent stack just the same. So Ardent 20 + Monk 0 = effective Monk 20.

One level dip in Monk isn't awful, of course, but whether getting IUS and one other bonus feat (note that Tash doesn't advance Stunning Fist uses as a Monk does) for free is . . . very group-dependent. I'd rather burn the feat and keep my power progression at max, thanks, but you may think otherwise.

Huh. Now I'm a little sad that no one in the first Iron Chef Appetizer contest took Tash for Divine Mind. I thought I was being gutsy by mixing Divine Mind with Truenamer, but mixing Divine Mind with Monk might have been just as good, if not better.

[NeoSeraphi]

Sacred Fist looks intersting... Hmm... I'm looking at a couple of options I think.

Cleric1/Monk2/Swordsage1/Sacred Fist5

or

Cleric1/Monk2/Sacred Fist6

Is the one level dip into Swordsage going to be worth it? I really like the ignore difficult terrain stance, and getting unarmed strike for free.

You can't cast cleric spells with Vow of Poverty. Your holy symbol is too expensive.

[Dusto]

Holy crap, even a wooden symbol? Wow, ugh... right when I was really starting to like the character idea... :(

[Big Fau]

You can't cast cleric spells with Vow of Poverty. Your holy symbol is too expensive.

An Eberron Cleric can spend another feat to bypass this.


Who's idea was it for the Wooden Symbol to cost cash anyway?

[NeoSeraphi]

There was an interesting idea someone had on a forum once that a cleric with Vow of Poverty could get his holy symbol tattooed into his skin, but I don't support it, as a tattoo is still a possession that costs money, even if it becomes a part of you.

[mootoall]

I think "Items necessary to perform one's duties" includes a cleric's holy symbol. In addition, I'd like to recommend throwing a few levels in Kensai to the Ardent build with Practiced Manifestor. Lose a bit of Monk to be able to give your fists the Throwing and Returning properties? Golden.

[HalfDragonCube]

An Eberron Cleric can spend another feat to bypass this.


Who's idea was it for the Wooden Symbol to cost cash anyway?

Isn't there an orison that summons you a holy symbol?

[Dusto]

An Eberron Cleric can spend another feat to bypass this.


Who's idea was it for the Wooden Symbol to cost cash anyway?

Where can I find that feat? I may have a feat available to spend on it. Actually looking at the feat requirements so far, I might not be able to pull this off.

[Big Fau]

Where can I find that feat? I may have a feat available to spend on it. Actually looking at the feat requirements so far, I might not be able to pull this off.

Worldly Focus, Faiths of Eberron. You must worship the Sovereign Host, but they have a wonderful PrC to make up for that.

[OracleofWuffing]

Isn't there an orison that summons you a holy symbol?
Hm... I'm seeing Summon Holy Symbol in Complete Champion, however, it does say that the summoned symbol is made of wood, so if a DM says that a wooden holy symbol is too expensive, casting the spell would probably violate your vow. Granted, it doesn't explicitly say it's a "Wooden Holy Symbol" that "Costs as much as a wooden holy symbol," and it even goes on to say that it's not particularly valuable, but it's ground where you need to step lightly.

[NeoSeraphi]

Incidentally, Dusto, the feat you mentioned in your first post with Wis to attack rolls is called Intuitive Attack, and it is an exalted feat. So you actually could choose it as one of the bonus feats (11 in total) granted to you by the Vow of Poverty feat.

Edit: Exalted feats in general aren't very good, but while I'm on it, I might as well suggest some others for you. Touch of Golden Ice is fantastic for bare-handed fighters (gives you a Dex-killing poison that only affects evil creatures, but works on undead, on all your unarmed strikes). Additionally, if Vow of Nonviolence works for your campaign (It rarely does, but still), it's a great way to get your Stunning Fist DC up. Whenever you nonlethal Stunning Fist a humanoid or monstrous humanoid, it'll give you a +4 bonus to the DC. Then you can tie them up while they're Stunned. Problem solved.

[Gavinfoxx]

You reaaalllly don't want Vow of Poverty. Just take a vow (with NO mechanical effects) that all of your possessions happen to belong to the church, IE, they equip you to do your job, but everything you get, it is THEIR dispensation on what sort of equipment you get. So you bring treasure to them, talk to your higher up about what sorts of things you will be fighting in their name and what sorts of things you will need to be able to do in order to be effective, and they obtain equipment which they then loan to you, their champion, or give you a small stipend to purchase equipment which they own.

Near identical flavor, no rigid Exalted, no crappy feat involved, you get equipment to maintain parity, all of your stuff and treasure still goes to the church, even if only after you stop adventuring.

And I second 'no monk levels, be an Ardent, take Tashalatora'.

Ardent is in Complete Psionic, Tashalatora is in Secrets of Sarlona.

[Zonugal]

Sacred Fist looks intersting... Hmm... I'm looking at a couple of options I think.

Cleric1/Monk2/Swordsage1/Sacred Fist5

or

Cleric1/Monk2/Sacred Fist6

Is the one level dip into Swordsage going to be worth it? I really like the ignore difficult terrain stance, and getting unarmed strike for free.

Well you are already going to be nabbing unarmed strike for free from Monk so Swordsage is simple redundant in that task.

Also you need a BaB of +4 to enter Sacred Fist so both of your builds are illegal.

But regarding a build I think a simple approach of Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 3 gets the job done. BaB +7, CL 7, Unarmed Damage of 1d8 (which can be easily bumped with divine magic). Overall a simple build serves a nice point.

[NeoSeraphi]

Hm... I'm seeing Summon Holy Symbol in Complete Champion, however, it does say that the summoned symbol is made of wood, so if a DM says that a wooden holy symbol is too expensive, casting the spell would probably violate your vow. Granted, it doesn't explicitly say it's a "Wooden Holy Symbol" that "Costs as much as a wooden holy symbol," and it even goes on to say that it's not particularly valuable, but it's ground where you need to step lightly.

Even if there is a Summon Holy Symbol spell, you can't cast it without a holy symbol

[prufock]

In addition to Tashalatora and Psychic Warrior (or Cleric/Sacred Fist), add the Saint template.

It's +2 LA, you get Wisdom to AC as an insight bonus (so you're now getting Wis to AC twice), +2 to Con and Wis, +4 to Charisma. You're immune to Acid, Cold, Sonic, Petrification, and you get Fire Resistance 10. You also get +2 to all saves for your special abilities and spells - assume that includes psionic powers. Extra damage to evil creatures, a double-strength magic circle vs evil, and a few more goodies. Oh yeah, and fast healing equal to half your HD. It requires 3 exalted feats - you already have Sacred Vow and VoP, and you get bonus exalted feats from VoP. You also have to be 6th level.

It's a great template for a sacred character.


Even if there is a Summon Holy Symbol spell, you can't cast it without a holy symbol

I'm assuming the spell wouldn't have a Divine Focus component. Not all cleric spells require DF.

[OracleofWuffing]

I'm assuming the spell wouldn't have a Divine Focus component. Not all cleric spells require DF.
That is indeed the case, it is Verbal and Somatic only, no Divine Focus required.

[Dusto]

Even if there is a Summon Holy Symbol spell, you can't cast it without a holy symbol

I had to look this up since what you are saying doesn't make sense.

SUMMON HOLY
SYMBOL
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Cleric 0, paladin 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard
action
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Small wooden
holy symbol
Duration: 1 round/level
(D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:
No
You whisper a prayer to
your deity, and his symbol
appears in your hand.
You conjure a small holy symbol, which
you can then use to turn undead, or as a
divine focus for spells, or for any other
purpose that you would normally use one.
The conjured holy symbol is made of wood and is neither
magical nor particularly valuable.

The point of this spell is to summon a symbol when you don't have one.

[NeoSeraphi]

I had to look this up since what you are saying doesn't make sense.

SUMMON HOLY
SYMBOL
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Cleric 0, paladin 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard
action
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Small wooden
holy symbol
Duration: 1 round/level
(D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:
No
You whisper a prayer to
your deity, and his symbol
appears in your hand.
You conjure a small holy symbol, which
you can then use to turn undead, or as a
divine focus for spells, or for any other
purpose that you would normally use one.
The conjured holy symbol is made of wood and is neither
magical nor particularly valuable.

The point of this spell is to summon a symbol when you don't have one.

That last line, "not particularly valuable" makes me think it would work. Check with your DM though.

[Dusto]

In addition to Tashalatora and Psychic Warrior (or Cleric/Sacred Fist), add the Saint template.

It's +2 LA, you get Wisdom to AC as an insight bonus (so you're now getting Wis to AC twice), +2 to Con and Wis, +4 to Charisma. You're immune to Acid, Cold, Sonic, Petrification, and you get Fire Resistance 10. You also get +2 to all saves for your special abilities and spells - assume that includes psionic powers. Extra damage to evil creatures, a double-strength magic circle vs evil, and a few more goodies. Oh yeah, and fast healing equal to half your HD. It requires 3 exalted feats - you already have Sacred Vow and VoP, and you get bonus exalted feats from VoP. You also have to be 6th level.

It's a great template for a sacred character.



I'm assuming the spell wouldn't have a Divine Focus component. Not all cleric spells require DF.

This would drop me down to level 7, but wow, the bonuses look like they might just be worth it. Any chance you could post up a build of this?

[Greenish]

One level dip in Monk isn't awful, of course, but whether getting IUS and one other bonus feat (note that Tash doesn't advance Stunning Fist uses as a Monk does)Stunning Fist? You'd take Imp. Grapple (to be able to use it even when expansion tanks your Dex) or Monastic Training, I should think.


I think "Items necessary to perform one's duties" includes a cleric's holy symbol.Or, say, a Holy Avenger for a paladin, obviously. :smallamused:


Isn't there an orison that summons you a holy symbol?Standard action for rounds/level to be able to use most of your class features is a bummer.


Worldly Focus, Faiths of Eberron. You must worship the Sovereign Host, but they have a wonderful PrC to make up for that.Well, Sovereign Host also has a long list of domains (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060911a&page=2) to choose from.

[mootoall]

Well a Paladin might actually need a Holy Avenger to be useful :smalltongue: Seriously though, a fighter's allowed his sword, a wizard is (depending on who you asked) allowed his spellbook, why wouldn't a cleric be allowed his holy symbol under that stipulation?

[NeoSeraphi]

Well a Paladin might actually need a Holy Avenger to be useful :smalltongue: Seriously though, a fighter's allowed his sword, a wizard is (depending on who you asked) allowed his spellbook, why wouldn't a cleric be allowed his holy symbol under that stipulation?

A wizard isn't allowed to have his spellbook. If you're going to take a Vow, you have to obey it. A character who relies on expensive possessions shouldn't take a Vow to give them up when he doesn't intend to. You gain power from a higher source because you showed your loyalty by giving up earthly possessions. You can't keep your spellbook or your holy symbol because they tie you down. If the character feels all his power comes from an expensive item, he is bound to that item, and he is not devoted to poverty. Therefore, he shouldn't gain any power from it.

A fighter gets to keep a simple weapon. So a club or a quarterstaff, but not a greatsword or a greataxe. A walking stick or a branch of a tree is not the same as a book containing the secrets to destroying your enemies with a flick of your wrist.

[Hirax]

Or we could assume his DM isn't a jerk. I'd wager his DM would allow him to play either of those classes with an appropriate modification that doesn't require burning more feats, IE not needing a holy symbol, or free eidetic (no spellbook, you memorize your spells) spellcasting.

[mootoall]

A wizard isn't allowed to have his spellbook. If you're going to take a Vow, you have to obey it. A character who relies on expensive possessions shouldn't take a Vow to give them up when he doesn't intend to. You gain power from a higher source because you showed your loyalty by giving up earthly possessions. You can't keep your spellbook or your holy symbol because they tie you down. If the character feels all his power comes from an expensive item, he is bound to that item, and he is not devoted to poverty. Therefore, he shouldn't gain any power from it.

A fighter gets to keep a simple weapon. So a club or a quarterstaff, but not a greatsword or a greataxe. A walking stick or a branch of a tree is not the same as a book containing the secrets to destroying your enemies with a flick of your wrist.

This is not how the feat works by RAW. If it specifically allows a thief to keep his tools, not to mention that it specifically says a fighter can keep his sword* and generalizes from there, it's safe to say that a cleric can keep his holy symbol and the wizard his spellbook. The argument against the spellbook isn't even its expense. It's that it might count as magic.

*Note, AFB so working off memory here

[NeoSeraphi]

This is not how the feat works by RAW. If it specifically allows a thief to keep his tools, not to mention that it specifically says a fighter can keep his sword* and generalizes from there, it's safe to say that a cleric can keep his holy symbol and the wizard his spellbook. The argument against the spellbook isn't even its expense. It's that it might count as magic.

*Note, AFB so working off memory here

I respectfully disagree (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-3081-vow-of-poverty.html)

Also, the cost is indeed an issue. A wizard's spellbook with 100 pages costs 1 gp. That is too expensive for the feat.

[Zaq]

Stunning Fist? You'd take Imp. Grapple (to be able to use it even when expansion tanks your Dex) or Monastic Training, I should think.

That's the implication. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. Sorry.

I do like the trick of getting Improved Grapple from a Monk dip to keep it after size shenanigans. I'll have to remember that one. Not that I'm planning on making a grappler anytime soon, but hey, nifty trick is nifty.

[Hirax]

2 levels isn't bad. You get evasion and combat reflexes or deflect arrows, +1 to BAB and all saves. Definitely hit eject at that point though, if you take any monk levels at all.

[Dusto]

If you can keep a pouch for spell components, you sure as hell should be able to keep a simple wooden holy symbol :) I will check with the DM, but hopefully that looks right.

For my build with Swordsage, I was confused thinking unarmed strike and improved unarmed strike were two different things.

The +4 BAB requirement changes things quite a bit, with the poor BAB from Monk and Cleric. At best I wouldn't be going into Sacred Fist until level 7.

I'm thinking something like Cleric1/Monk2/Fighter1/Warblade1/Crusader1/Sacred Fist3. Or to be more focused I could do Cleric4/Monk2/Sacred Fist3. But the extra HP, feat and manuevers the first way might work out better.

[NeoSeraphi]

If you can keep a pouch for spell components, you sure as hell should be able to keep a simple wooden holy symbol :) I will check with the DM, but hopefully that looks right.

For my build with Swordsage, I was confused thinking unarmed strike and improved unarmed strike were two different things.

The +4 BAB requirement changes things quite a bit, with the poor BAB from Monk and Cleric. At best I wouldn't be going into Sacred Fist until level 7.

I'm thinking something like Cleric1/Monk2/Fighter1/Warblade1/Crusader1/Sacred Fist3. Or to be more focused I could do Cleric4/Monk2/Sacred Fist3. But the extra HP, feat and manuevers the first way might work out better.

The Swordsage receives Improved Unarmed Strike, and if you choose, Weapon Focus in the Shadow Hand discipline, which will grant Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) for you. Additionally, the Children of Night stance is very useful for unarmed combat (20% concealment whenever you move at least 10 feet on one round).

Conversely, the monk receives Improved Unarmed Strike, and a bonus feat, which must be chosen from a wide variety, though you would probably narrow it down to Combat Expertise, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, or Monastic Training (If you were going to choose Tashlatora)

My suggestion is to go Cleric 4/Swordsage 2/Sacred Fist

If your DM rules that you can't have your holy symbol (which is what RAW states. The spell pouch is so sorcerers can have VoP but Wizards can't) then you can always be a monk/druid instead. Entering Sacred Fist with druid is more difficult iirc, (Away from Book at the moment) but it's doable. And druids don't need a holy symbol.

Edit: Remembered that the prereqs require Stunning Fist. Right, Monk 2/Cleric 4 or Druid 4 it is then.

[Dusto]

Good call, I'm not sure why I wasn't considering Druid as well. It fits the build fine. Let me see what I can come up with.

[Tenebris]

What is the big deal with "cannot-have-a-holy-symbol-because-it-is-too-costly"? IIRC Ilmater's holy symbol is nothing but a red cord tied around your wrists. I think there are plenty more similar. At worst you can have your holy symbol tattooed on your body.

Which leads to Monk 2/ Ardent 5/ Apostle of Peace 2/ Psychic Theurge 10 (Tashalatora here)/ Ardent 1. Terrible BAB, but 9th level spellcasting/full manifesting (with Practiced Manifester)/ 12th lvl monk. Try to compensate BAB with spells/powers (conflict mantle is helpful). Or just solve every problem with your diplomacy (communication mantle).

[Flickerdart]

To become a Saint you have to perform an especially saintly deed, though. Maybe saving the entire world from some demon princes would qualify.

Also, Apostle of Peace has to take the Vow of Peace, which means that "compensating for BAB" doesn't matter cause you're not gonna be attacking anything. Ever.

[Tenebris]

Also, Apostle of Peace has to take the Vow of Peace, which means that "compensating for BAB" doesn't matter cause you're not gonna be attacking anything. Ever.
Nonlethal damage. One thing that monk actually can do right.

[NeoSeraphi]

What is the big deal with "cannot-have-a-holy-symbol-because-it-is-too-costly"? IIRC Ilmater's holy symbol is nothing but a red cord tied around your wrists. I think there are plenty more similar. At worst you can have your holy symbol tattooed on your body.

Which leads to Monk 2/ Ardent 5/ Apostle of Peace 2/ Psychic Theurge 10 (Tashalatora here)/ Ardent 1. Terrible BAB, but 9th level spellcasting/full manifesting (with Practiced Manifester)/ 12th lvl monk. Try to compensate BAB with spells/powers (conflict mantle is helpful). Or just solve every problem with your diplomacy (communication mantle).

Yes, but Vow of Peace also means you project an aura of calm emotions that affects your allies and that you cannot suppress. It really screws...well..your entire party. The aura DC (of course) scales with your level, as it should, but if any of your party gets too close to you and doesn't manage to save against your aura, they can't attack until provoked. Which screws the wizard hard (yes, he has a high Will save. But how many wizards do YOU know with more than 12 Wisdom? Unless they're taking Arcane Disciple)

[prufock]

This would drop me down to level 7, but wow, the bonuses look like they might just be worth it. Any chance you could post up a build of this?

I hate offering specific builds, but I will offer suggestions:
Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 8
Wis is your go-to for AC (twice!), powers, Stunning Fist, and attacks. Dex is not too important – your AC is all from wis and you’re melee more than ranged. You could drop Int to 8 (since you get extra skill points for being human and from Nymph’s Kiss) and put the extra points wherever.

Human Saint Monk 1/Psychic Warrior 6 OR Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 5.
Monk 2/Psywar 5 grants an extra bonus feat, but Monk 1/Psywar 6 lets you use Expansion to increase size TWO categories with Overchannel. Make sure you get 5 ranks in Concentration and Autohypnosis (required for Tashalatora). Put the rest in Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Notice, or whatever.

Feats (assuming Monk 1/Psywar 6)
1st – Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty (human bonus), Monastic Training (monk bonus)
2nd – Nymph’s Kiss (VoP bonus), Stunning Fist (Psywar bonus)
3rd – Tashalatora, Overchannel (Psywar bonus)
4th – Intuitive Attack (VoP bonus)
6th – Improved Natural Attack, Touch of Golden Ice (VoP bonus), Weapon Focus unarmed/Psionic Fist/Psionic Talent/whatever (Psywar bonus)

If you do Monk 2/Psywar 5, make your monk bonus feats Stunning Fist at 1st and Monastic Training at 2nd. That saves you a psywar feat that you can use for Weapon Focus/Psionic Fist/Psionic Talent/whatever. You could also replace Overchannel (but if you’re planning to go beyond ECL 9, take it for future use).

Improve your Wisdom at Lvl 4. At level 7, your VoP enhancement goes to Wis as well, making it 20. Saint makes it 22.

AC should be 29 (10+6monkwis+6saintwis+6vop+1deflect), or 30 if you put more points in dex. Saint’s Holy Power increases the save DCs of your powers and abilities by 2, including Stunning Fist and Touch of Golden Ice. Your damage dice is 2d6, 3d6 when Large, 4d6 when Huge. Saint’s Holy Touch grants +1d6/+1d8 vs evil creatures/evil outsiders, and VoP makes it +1 (magic), plus your str bonus. If you have Psionic Fist and expend focus it’s +2d6. Your attack bonus is +12 if you took Weapon Focus. Each time you hit you can provoke a save vs stun (dc 21) and a save vs Golden Ice (dc 16, also works when they hit you).

Oh, and you have Guidance, Resistance, Virtue, and Bless at will, DR 5/magic, Fast Healing 3, immunity to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Petrification, Fire Resistance 10, low-light and darkvision, double strength magic circle against evil + lesser globe of invulnerability at will as a free action (CL 3), +4 vs poison, and Tongues all the time. And +2 Con and +4 Cha.

Suggested Powers (* top choices, you only get 6): 1st – Expansion*, Inertial Armor, Offensive Precognition*, Offensive Prescience*, Chameleon, Biofeedback, Force Screen, Grip of Iron; 2nd –Psionic Lion’s Charge*, Psionic Levitate* (your only way to get airborne at this point), Concealing Amorpha, Prowess* (instant AoO – good with your Expansion reach), Strength of My Enemy.
Your defense is already pretty tight, so it might be advisable to focus on offensive stuff.

[Talya]

Another possibility, look at the Sun Soul Ninja PrC in tome of battle. It specifically advances several aspects of monklyness. Makes a very good VOP Monk/Unarmed Swordsage PrC. (I'd take no more than two levels of monk with it.)

[Seatbelt]

I'm really proud of you guys that only one post tells him not to take VOP. You make me happy. :)

[Talya]

I'm really proud of you guys that only one post tells him not to take VOP. You make me happy. :)

I love VOP.

It sucks, and needed a hell of a lot more tweaking for it to work, but I love it, and have played a few VOP characters. I'm certainly not going to advise against it.

The hard part isn't to avoid saying "Don't take VOP." The hard part is to avoid saying, "don't take monk!" Fortunately he covered that by saying he was fine with a short monk dip.

[ImperatorK]

Fortunately he covered that by saying he was fine with a short monk dip.
You mean Gavinfoxx?

[Talya]

You mean Gavinfoxx?

Well, he's the one person who said don't take it at all.

No, I mean the original post, where he said:


I am looking for some build suggestions for a Vow of Poverty Monk build, but it definitely doesn't need to focus on Monk. I am thinking of a mix of Swordsage, possibly more classes.

Monk 2/swordsage x/Shadow Sun Ninja x works very well with VOP.

[NeoSeraphi]

I hate offering specific builds, but I will offer suggestions:
Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 8
Wis is your go-to for AC (twice!), powers, Stunning Fist, and attacks. Dex is not too important – your AC is all from wis and you’re melee more than ranged. You could drop Int to 8 (since you get extra skill points for being human and from Nymph’s Kiss) and put the extra points wherever.

Human Saint Monk 1/Psychic Warrior 6 OR Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 5.
Monk 2/Psywar 5 grants an extra bonus feat, but Monk 1/Psywar 6 lets you use Expansion to increase size TWO categories with Overchannel. Make sure you get 5 ranks in Concentration and Autohypnosis (required for Tashalatora). Put the rest in Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Notice, or whatever.

Feats (assuming Monk 1/Psywar 6)
1st – Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty (human bonus), Monastic Training (monk bonus)
2nd – Nymph’s Kiss (VoP bonus), Stunning Fist (Psywar bonus)
3rd – Tashalatora, Overchannel (Psywar bonus)
4th – Intuitive Attack (VoP bonus)
6th – Improved Natural Attack, Touch of Golden Ice (VoP bonus), Weapon Focus unarmed/Psionic Fist/Psionic Talent/whatever (Psywar bonus)

If you do Monk 2/Psywar 5, make your monk bonus feats Stunning Fist at 1st and Monastic Training at 2nd. That saves you a psywar feat that you can use for Weapon Focus/Psionic Fist/Psionic Talent/whatever. You could also replace Overchannel (but if you’re planning to go beyond ECL 9, take it for future use).

The first build is impossible. Stunning Fist requires +8 BAB if you don't take it as a monk bonus feat.

[Dusto]

Wow, thanks for all the continued feedback. Lots of good information.

I checked with the DM and he is ok with a simple holy symbol for VoP. But Tash is a no-go as he isn't doing anything with ebberon books.

The Psiwarrior is interesting, but size in our game seems to be a hindrance as much as a bonus sometimes. Though it would be a nice trick to bust out once in awhile.

[MeeposFire]

One thing you might try to run by your DM is to allow you to take feats from the magic of incarnum book. You will probably run out of interesting and useful exalted feats quickly and being able to take shape soulmeld and the chakra bind feats will allow you to get some item like effects so that the lack of item disparity won't be so bad. For instance using your new bonus feats you could take shape soulmeld (pegasus wings) and open chakra shoulder and you can now fly and have angelic looking wings on your VoP character.

It is a nice and easy way to throw VoP a bone.

[PollyOliver]

Yeah, I would ask your DM if he'd be willing to expand the VoP bonus feat list to include other thematically appropriate feats (such as other feats in BoED that aren't explicitly exalted feats, or some incarnum feats, or something). That would help a lot, because unless you're a druid with 15 charisma you run out of feats to take really, really quickly.

Have you decided if you're going with the monkish build or the clericish build or the druidish build?

Shadow sun ninja sounds very cool, and I have always wanted to play one. Druid or cleric of course works fine almost no matter what.

[Talya]

Shadow sun ninja sounds very cool, and I have always wanted to play one. Druid or cleric of course works fine almost no matter what.

Well, the big advantage of SSN, if I remember correctly (I don't have the book in front of me now), is that it advances flurry of blows. Since SSN is 10 levels, 1 level of monk gets you greater flurry, with no penalty to attack. If you can make full attack actions, it's actually decent, especially with a couple nice swordsage boosts. With Unarmed Swordsage and Improved Natural Attack, by 20 those attacks are at 4d8 damage, all in a nice martial adept package.

[Keld Denar]

I see a lot of people advocate the Monk-less Ardent Tash build...it doesn't really work. Monk1-2 just has too many bonus feats that you need to get your game online. You don't get Imp UAS for free, so thats a feat. Tash requires 2 feats (Monastic Training + Tash). Then you have all of the toys you want to add on like Link Power, Superior UAS, Snap Kick, Imp Nat Attack, etc.

If you don't go Human with flaws, you won't even have your Tash combo until 6. Ardents don't get bonus feats like PsyWars do, and there are a LOT of feats you'll want to take.

Imp Grapple at 1st level is great if you are doing Expansion shananananananananigans, and while niether Snatch Arrows or Combat Reflexes are that useful for Tash builds (which tend to sacrifice dex, since dex goes down with Expansion anyway), you can trade that bonus feat away for Monastic Training just in time to take Tash at level 3 with your first non-Monk level.

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay, so if Tash isn't available, yea, you do need at least one level of monk.

What was the other feat that wasn't quite Tash, but was close, and where was it again??

[Chess435]

I'd reccommend dropping a feat on Travel Devotion. It lets you move AND flurry in the same round for 1 minute per day, more with a bigger feat investment or a cleric dip.

[Flickerdart]

Okay, so if Tash isn't available, yea, you do need at least one level of monk.

What was the other feat that wasn't quite Tash, but was close, and where was it again??
The Ascetic line of feats, that let Monk stack with a handful of crappy classes and Sorcerer? They're mostly not worth it.

[Gavinfoxx]

No no, there was another, psionic specific feat, one that combines monk and psychic warrior...

[Dusto]

Yeah, I would ask your DM if he'd be willing to expand the VoP bonus feat list to include other thematically appropriate feats (such as other feats in BoED that aren't explicitly exalted feats, or some incarnum feats, or something). That would help a lot, because unless you're a druid with 15 charisma you run out of feats to take really, really quickly.

Have you decided if you're going with the monkish build or the clericish build or the druidish build?

Shadow sun ninja sounds very cool, and I have always wanted to play one. Druid or cleric of course works fine almost no matter what.

The extra feats I am almost positive would be a no-go.

Originally I was looking pure 'Monkish', but some of the build ideas with the cleric/druid are good too. I'm just wondering if the dip into them is going to be worth the loss of progression. But being able to hit myself with buffs is a nice idea. Also I wouldn't mind having a few heal spells for myself, but I do not want to make him into an actual healer, he would be more damage focus.

[Big Fau]

No no, there was another, psionic specific feat, one that combines monk and psychic warrior...

Carmandine Monk. No clue as to the source though.

[Gavinfoxx]

No, Carmandine is USEFUL for this character, but I don't think it's the basis, ack..

I'll find it eventually... or maybe I'm just mad..

[prufock]

The first build is impossible. Stunning Fist requires +8 BAB if you don't take it as a monk bonus feat.

Ah, right you are. So you either lose Stunning Fist in favour of something else OR move SF to bonus monk feat at 1st, push Monastic Training to 3rd level feat, and Tashalatora to 6th level feat, dropping Improved Natural Attack. This pushes INA to 9th level (2 levels away).

Monk 2/Psywar 5 will push 2xExpansion just 1 level away, so if there is going to be level progression, it's your better bet.

That is, unless flaws are allowed. If you can take 1 flaw, you can get Monastic Training as your flaw feat, SF as monk1 bonus, something in place of Psywar1 bonus, and everything else stays the same.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ah, right you are. So you either lose Stunning Fist in favour of something else OR move SF to bonus monk feat at 1st, push Monastic Training to 3rd level feat, and Tashalatora to 6th level feat, dropping Improved Natural Attack. This pushes INA to 9th level (2 levels away).

Monk 2/Psywar 5 will push 2xExpansion just 1 level away, so if there is going to be level progression, it's your better bet.

That is, unless flaws are allowed. If you can take 1 flaw, you can get Monastic Training as your flaw feat, SF as monk1 bonus, something in place of Psywar1 bonus, and everything else stays the same.

But he WANTS Sacred Fist. He doesn't want to take Tashlatora to begin with. And Stunning Fist is required for Sacred Fist.

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay, if you combine Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius, an Ascetic Psion variant feat based off of Ascetic Knight or something. Hell, just show the DM the Ascetic feats in Complete Scoundrel and Complete Adventurer, and work with him to make a variant Ascetic Psion that is slightly weaker than Tashalatora.

Or you could just play a pure Psychic Warrior, get a Monk's Belt, use Claws of the Beast, Improved Natural Attack (Claws), and Expansion, and you're fine.

[prufock]

But he WANTS Sacred Fist. He doesn't want to take Tashlatora to begin with. And Stunning Fist is required for Sacred Fist.

He asked me for a sample build, he didn't specify which. But in that case it makes the decisions a bit different, and easier.

[Dusto]

Another possibility, look at the Sun Soul Ninja PrC in tome of battle. It specifically advances several aspects of monklyness. Makes a very good VOP Monk/Unarmed Swordsage PrC. (I'd take no more than two levels of monk with it.)

Took a good look at SSN, and the main issue is the 'dark' powers, which if I end up doing the Saint template, I almost guarantee my DM wouldn't allow them together. Are there any other good Monk-ish PrCs that I may be overlooking?

[Dusto]

Let me see how this adds up.

Human - Saint Template

1st - Feat - Sacred Vow
1st - Human - Vow of Poverty
1st - Monk - Stunning Fist
2nd - Monk - Deflect Arrows
2nd - VoP - Nymph's Kiss
3rd - Cleric -
3rd - Feat - Superior Unarmed Strike
4th - Cleric -
4th - VoP - Intuitive Attack
5th - Cleric -
6th - Cleric -
6th - Feat - Improved Natural Attack
6th - VoP - Touch of Golden Ice
7th - Sacred Fist -

I should end up with 7 levels of monk attack thanks to superior unarmed strike and 5 levels of caster progression. Both of which would continue to increase each level into Sacred Fist.

Is there any compelling reason I should considering druid instead of cleric for this build?

Also Improved Natural attack might not fly since we don't currently use Ebberon, if so is there a different feat that I should take advantage of? Maybe start working towards persistant spell and pick up extend?

[ImperatorK]

Also Improved Natural attack might not fly since we don't currently use Ebberon, if so is there a different feat that I should take advantage of? Maybe start working towards persistant spell and pick up extend?
Improved Natural Attack is in Monster Manual and MM3 and also in SRD under monster feats.

[Dusto]

That should work then, thanks!

[PollyOliver]

Is there any compelling reason I should considering druid instead of cleric for this build?

Not really, unless you want wild shape or intend to acquire natural weapons other than your unarmed strike somehow (and thus would benefit from being able to cast superior magic fang later). Otherwise, cleric buffs should be more than sufficient for you (since sacred fist won't advance your other druid features anyway).