[3.5] Lillend Template (Review and PEACH)

[Hawkflight]

Okay, so a friend of mine wants to play a lillend in a campaign, and i'm finding myself intrigued by the idea of playing one myself. So here's my attempt at homebrewing a lillend template. I based it off the half-dragon template, and replaced and moved many of the abilities to fit the lillend instead.

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{table=head]Level|Features

1st|Lillend Body, Str +2, Cha +2, resistance (lesser), natural armor +2, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision

2nd|Str +2, Con +2, natural armor +1, improved grab, constrict, wings

3rd|Str +4, Cha +2, resistance (greater), natural armor +1, growth, outsider type
[/table]

Lillend Body: The lillend loses all other racial bonuses, and gains Outsider traits and the extraplanar subtype. A lillend's legs fuse into a long snake tail, rendering her unable to use boots made for a humanoid. However, she can a tail ring made specifically for serpentine creatures, with a typical boot's bonuses enchanted into it. In addition, she gains a tail slap attack for 1d10 damage, 30 base speed, and is medium sized. The lillend has a pair of feathered wings, but they're too weak to do anything for now.

Ability Score Changes: The indicated ability score increases or decreases by the amount noted.

Resistances (Ex): A half-dragon has energy resistance 5 to fire. At 2nd level, this resistance increases to 10.

Natural Armor Improvements: At every level of the prestige class, the lillend's natural armor bonus increases by the indicated amount.

Darkvision (Ex): At 1st level the half-dragon gains darkvision to a 60-foot range.

Low-Light Vision (Ex): At 1st level, the half-dragon gains low-light vision.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a lillend must hit with its tail slap attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Constrict (Ex): A lillend deals 2d6 points of damage plus her strength bonus with a successful grapple check. Constricting uses the entire lower portion of her body, so she cannot take any move actions when constricting, though she can still attack with a wielded weapon.

Wings (Ex): At 2nd level, a lillend grows a pair of feathered wings and may use them to fly at up to twice her base land speed with average maneuverability.

Growth: At 3rd level, the lillend grows to large size. Adjust its stats, including natural attacks and damage, appropriately.

Outsider Type: At 3rd level, the lillend's type changes to outsider. She becomes vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but is immune to effects that target her original type.

[Almagesto]

I think just three levels is way wrong. According to Savage Species, in order to make a balanced monster class you should add the level adjustment (+6) with the creature's HD (+7) to get the amount of levels needed to advance in said class. Hence, you would have a Lillend class consisting of 13 levels. And, in Savage Species you already have a clearly made Lillend Monster Class that spans those 13 levels and gives a more balance progression.

[LOTRfan]

If the DM is willing to break RAW, I think a lower LA would be acceptable as well.

[Hawkflight]

Well, it's really meant to function as a reflavored half-dragon template, you see....

[Tanuki Tales]

Monster classes are built so that their total levels equal the CR of the monster; just fyi.

[Almagesto]

Monster classes are built so that their total levels equal the CR of the monster; just fyi.

You couldn't be more wrong. According to Savage Species, page 25:


Monster Classes and Level Adjustments
Unlike other classes, a monster class has a maximum number of levels equal to the creature's starting ECL. For example, a minotaur's starting ECL is 8 (6 HD and +2 Lvl. Adj.), so the minotaur monster class has 8 levels.

And, CR has nothing to do with making a monster class. As stated in Savage Species, page 6:


Challenge Rating Versus Effective Character Level
Challenge Rating and effective character level measure two different things. CR measures the threat level of a monster, and ECL measures its relative effectiveness compared to a character of one of the standard races, as given in the Player's Handbook. The factors that go into making a good challenge and a good character are so different that CR is no help in the latter case.

[Tanuki Tales]

You couldn't be more wrong. According to Savage Species, page 25:



And, CR has nothing to do with making a monster class. As stated in Savage Species, page 6:

I didn't say Savage Species Savage Progressions.

Monster classes are a tradition here on the homebrew forum and are based on the original concept of the Savage Progression. Except they have total levels equal to the Monster's CR and don't tend to always suck like Savage Progressions tend to do. :smallwink:

[begooler]

I think this is comparable to the half-dragon template, which is what you say you're going for. What I don't get though, is how you acquire this template. A half dragon would just be a half dragon at character creation, and would be ECL 4 with one class level. There wouldn't be any level progression, they would just progress by class from there.

If you're doing some sort of prc or monstrous level progression, then you need to list what hd they get and when, and how many skillpoints they get and when. If this is the case, then there should be a total of 4 levels, and you should only get a hit die on the first level. (So once you complete the progression, you have something ECL 4 with 1HD)

[Almagesto]

I didn't say Savage Species Savage Progressions.

Monster classes are a tradition here on the homebrew forum and are based on the original concept of the Savage Progression. Except they have total levels equal to the Monster's CR and don't tend to always suck like Savage Progressions tend to do. :smallwink:

Savage species' monster classes are not that bad :smallsmile:. Also, they tend keep the balance in the game. If you get all those amazing powers in just 3 or 4 levels, then you are playing an unbalanced PC. And that could be a problem: (1) to the other PCs, because your character would shine so much on every encounter and (2) for the DM, since he would have an ever harder time setting the CR of the encounters.

[Tanuki Tales]

Savage species' monster classes are not that bad :smallsmile:. Also, they tend keep the balance in the game. If you get all those amazing powers in just 3 or 4 levels, then you are playing an unbalanced PC. And that could be a problem: (1) to the other PCs, because your character would shine so much on every encounter and (2) for the DM, since he would have an ever harder time setting the CR of the encounters.

CR 3 or 4 monsters aren't that amazing except for a few rare cases. Now, if you're talking about things like Solars or Pit Fiends or Phoenixes or what have you, they aren't 3 or 4 level classes. A Solar Monster class would be 20+ levels and may not even get exactly what a Solar gets or even end up as powerful (or might be more so).

And sorry, but Savage Progression do suck in the long run unless you can quick dip them to get something nice for non-spellcasters. It speaks volumes when the linear fighter is always better than you in a game with Quadratic Wizards. (A Troll Fighter 1 for example is nowhere near as good as a straight Fighter of equal ECL.)

[BillyBobJoe]

But this is not a Savage Species progression, nor does it have any relationship to a Savage Species progression. This is a template based on the Half-Dragon template class and is tweaked to replicate abilities like a Lillend's, like he has said. However, I believe it was based off of this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a) style of template class where you gain levels as you want. (i.e. you could take your first level in bard, and then take one level in the Lillend template, and you would be a second level character with one level of Bard, and on effective LA)

Of course, I could be completely wrong and it could be based on Savage Species monster classes, in which case, sorry.

[Tanuki Tales]

But this is not a Savage Species progression, nor does it have any relationship to a Savage Species progression. This is a template based on the Half-Dragon template class and is tweaked to replicate abilities like a Lillend's, like he has said. However, I believe it was based off of this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a) style of template class where you gain levels as you want. (i.e. you could take your first level in bard, and then take one level in the Lillend template, and you would be a second level character with one level of Bard, and on effective LA)

Of course, I could be completely wrong and it could be based on Savage Species monster classes, in which case, sorry.

The template class is a Savage Progression, so what Alma was talking about in that regard is correct.

But the player, as specified by the OP, wants to play an actual Lillend. That's not a template or a template savage progression class, that's an actual monster.

So my point still stands that the OP should be looking for the generally superior Monster classes created by this playground. In fact, I'm pretty sure someone did in fact do a Lillend monster class back before the project was shut down by the mods.

[Magicyop]

The template class is a Savage Progression, so what Alma was talking about in that regard is correct.

But the player, as specified by the OP, wants to play an actual Lillend. That's not a template or a template savage progression class, that's an actual monster.

So my point still stands that the OP should be looking for the generally superior Monster classes created by this playground. In fact, I'm pretty sure someone did in fact do a Lillend monster class back before the project was shut down by the mods.

Yup. It's right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8097854&postcount=208) Oslecamo made it in the original incarnation of the project. There are a lot of misspellings, but Oslecamo did have a fair bit of panache in terms of monster classes, for the most part.

I'd recommend using that, or something similar. Lillend is not a template, templates are for creatures that are something else too. (A.K.A., you don't see an Elf Lillend, or a Gnome Lillend, or a Goblin Lillend. Lillend is a creature all its own. On the other hand, there CAN be Half-Dragon Elves, Gnomes, and Goblins.)

Best of luck!

[Hawkflight]

But this is not a Savage Species progression, nor does it have any relationship to a Savage Species progression. This is a template based on the Half-Dragon template class and is tweaked to replicate abilities like a Lillend's, like he has said. However, I believe it was based off of this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a) style of template class where you gain levels as you want. (i.e. you could take your first level in bard, and then take one level in the Lillend template, and you would be a second level character with one level of Bard, and on effective LA)

Of course, I could be completely wrong and it could be based on Savage Species monster classes, in which case, sorry.

No, you hit the nail on the head.

Basically, my friend wanted to start out as a lillend from level two and not have to take lillend class all the way up to level 13. I was looking for feedback on this for her, but she ended up just replacing the natural attacks with constrict and bite and calling it a draconic lillend. *shrugs*

[Tanuki Tales]

No, you hit the nail on the head.

Basically, my friend wanted to start out as a lillend from level two and not have to take lillend class all the way up to level 13. I was looking for feedback on this for her, but she ended up just replacing the natural attacks with constrict and bite and calling it a draconic lillend. *shrugs*

The Lillend class we presented only has 7 levels, if that goes better with your friend.