PrCs - It will all end in tiers

[thompur]

I understand the Tier system for Base classes, but what effect, if any, does adding a PrC have on a class, especially the tier 5 & 6 levels. Can adding the right PrC get a Fighter to tier 4, or Monk to tier 5? Or are tiers only for ranking base classes?

[Zaq]

There is a ranking system for PrCs around here somewhere (I believe sonofzeal is the custodian?), but PrCs don't directly correspond to tiers the way base classes do, in no small part because most of them have several possible means of entry. I do believe that the ranking system rates them on a scale from +2 to –2, but it's very clear that giving a T3 class a +2 PrC does not make them T1, nor does giving a T4 class a –1 PrC make them a T5. It's just shorthand for "makes character way better," "makes character better," "doesn't much change character's effectiveness," "kinda weakens character," "severely weakens character."

[Private-Prinny]

As a side note, Fighters and Monks are already Tier 4/5.

As for the PrC tier system, it rests here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) And yes, sonofzeal is the contributor.

[Big Fau]

As a side note, Fighters and Monks are already Tier 4/5.

As for the PrC tier system, it rests here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) And yes, sonofzeal is the contributor.

Fighters are Tier 5, Tier 4 if an FR variant or the Dungeoncrasher variant are allowed, for the record.


There's an explanation of why the -2 PrCs are -2 over on BG. There was supposed to be another set of threads for each PrC Tier, but the project died.

[BlueInc]

I'd just like to say: Best thread title ever.

[Gnaeus]

There is a ranking system for PrCs around here somewhere (I believe sonofzeal is the custodian?), but PrCs don't directly correspond to tiers the way base classes do, in no small part because most of them have several possible means of entry. I do believe that the ranking system rates them on a scale from +2 to –2, but it's very clear that giving a T3 class a +2 PrC does not make them T1, nor does giving a T4 class a –1 PrC make them a T5. It's just shorthand for "makes character way better," "makes character better," "doesn't much change character's effectiveness," "kinda weakens character," "severely weakens character."


This is exactly correct. There are also some PRCs which should really be tiered by themselves. Anything with 10 levels of Ur-Priest is Tier 1, regardless of what class they used to qualify. Anything with 10 levels of Chameleon is probably Tier 3, whether they entered the class as a tier 1 or a tier 5.

[thompur]

This is exactly correct. There are also some PRCs which should really be tiered by themselves. Anything with 10 levels of Ur-Priest is Tier 1, regardless of what class they used to qualify. Anything with 10 levels of Chameleon is probably Tier 3, whether they entered the class as a tier 1 or a tier 5.

That's very interesting. I don't have the book that has Chameleon. Does it give partial spell progression(thus nerfing full casters) but also give useful abilities(thus boosting non-casters?)

[Urpriest]

That's very interesting. I don't have the book that has Chameleon. Does it give partial spell progression(thus nerfing full casters) but also give useful abilities(thus boosting non-casters?)

Basically it's got its own slow but very very versatile spell progression, coupled with limited access to other peoples' class features and a very cool floating feat.

[Gnaeus]

That's very interesting. I don't have the book that has Chameleon. Does it give partial spell progression(thus nerfing full casters) but also give useful abilities(thus boosting non-casters?)

What Urpriest said. It is in Races of Destiny. A chameleon takes on a focus (the best are Divine and Arcane, followed by Martial, then all the others.) A chameleon in Divine Focus can cast spells from any Divine list, but only up to level 6. With Arcane focus, he can do the same from any Arcane list, but only if they are in his spellbook. There is no way to advance casting after the class, so you pretty much top out at level 15 with 6th level divine and arcane spells. Solid. Useful. But not game breaking like a T1-2. Somewhat similar to Factotum, with which it is often used.

[Jack_Simth]

That's very interesting. I don't have the book that has Chameleon. Does it give partial spell progression(thus nerfing full casters) but also give useful abilities(thus boosting non-casters?)
WotC Put it Online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1).

It has it's own independent casting progression, giving (eventually) 6th level spells from any spell list. It's also got a number of other things. But yes: It's around tier 2 or 3 all by it's lonesome, pretty much regardless of entry method.

Likewise, Ur-Priest is a low tier-1 (medium-high, if you permit a few cheesy tactics with steal spell-like ability... but that's late game) pretty much regardless of entry, due to it granting full Cleric spell access. Sublime Chord is pretty much a low Tier-2 regardless of entry, due to it granting Sorcerer spellcasting (possibly high tier-3, as it's fewer spells known and fewer spells-per-day than the Sorcerer gets).

In general, I suppose, any PrC where the majority of features are independent of entry method should probably be ranked independently of entry, whereas any PrC that progresses previous stuffs should be ranked relative to the previous stuffs (So Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, Chameleon, and so on have set tiers, while Loremaster, Incantatrix, Mystic Theurge, and so on are ranked relative to the entry method).

[glennfrogknight]

I really want to play a Binder10/Chameleon 10 one day. I know that Factotum/Chameleon is a common build, but I think binder would be a cool mix, too, since you'd get to basically rebuild your entire character every ingame day.

[Urpriest]

I really want to play a Binder10/Chameleon 10 one day. I know that Factotum/Chameleon is a common build, but I think binder would be a cool mix, too, since you'd get to basically rebuild your entire character every ingame day.

Binder is a little better with Chameleon actually. While Factotum in some ways does Chameleon better than Chameleon and so feels redundant when used beside it, Binder and Incarnate serve more to complement Chameleon.

[Veyr]

Yeah, I've found Factotum/Chameleon to be disappointing. The two classes do similar things in very different ways, so it kind of feels like you're going half one way and then half another, and it doesn't really synergize.

I suppose you were at least level 18 (i.e. had Factotum 8/Chameleon 10), that might change, but... yeah, I don't play at those levels.

[Greenish]

Fighters are Tier 5, Tier 4 if an FR variant or the Dungeoncrasher variant are allowed, for the record.You could have both Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim. You could even fit Charger, Dungeoncrasher, Intimidator and Spiked Chain Tripper to ECL 11 (or so) build, I should think, if you tried.

Having all of fighter's tricks could be amusing.

[FMArthur]

Totemist is also a popular entry for the same reason as Binder is, but like the Binder it's missing skills for entry. I like it and Factotum a bit more than Binder because dumping Charisma is a little more comfortable. Totemist also doesn't have the Binder's and Factotum's amazing 8th level goodies that tempt you into delaying your Chameleon progression. :smallbiggrin:

[Zaq]

Binder/Incarnate/Chameleon. Trust me. I've played one. It was awesome.

[Etrivar]

Another difficulty you encounter with ranking prestige classes is that the level of improvement is highly relative, depending on what build it's being added to.

For example, a cleric with 10 levels of Urpriest is really no different from a straight cleric 20, due to the redundancy. But a Rogue with 10 levels of Urpriest gets a much bigger change in power and versatility.

Also, there are some PrC's that are utterly useless in most builds, but, to the right character, represent that one missing piece that perfectly completes the puzzle.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Another difficulty you encounter with ranking prestige classes is that the level of improvement is highly relative, depending on what build it's being added to.

For example, a cleric with 10 levels of Urpriest is really no different from a straight cleric 20, due to the redundancy. But a Rogue with 10 levels of Urpriest gets a much bigger change in power and versatility.

Also, there are some PrC's that are utterly useless in most builds, but, to the right character, represent that one missing piece that perfectly completes the puzzle.

Sorry; but it seems I can't understand completely your last point, care to elaborate?

[AmberVael]

Sorry; but it seems I can't understand completely your last point, care to elaborate?

To use a well known phrase:
"One man's garbage is another man's treasure."

What is merely okay or even bad for one build can be absolute gold for another build. Like... imagine if a PrC could change 5ft steps to 10ft steps (I believe there are actually few methods to do this, though not any PrCs that I'm aware of), it might be okay for some builds, and more or less handy for others- but for a Scout, it's going to be completely awesome, because that 10ft is the magical number that changes their regular attacks to Skirmish attacks.

This is not a perfect example, but hopefully it will help explain the concept.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Thanks that work quite well, and I have to say I find impossible to not agree.

[Quietus]

Sorry; but it seems I can't understand completely your last point, care to elaborate?

As another example, Master of Many Forms. For a Druid, you're giving up a lot - spellcasting and animal companion advancement - for a boost to your wildshape, which would be completely pointless once you hit level 17 Druid and got Shapechange anyway. The prestige class actively makes your druid worse. You're still a wildshaping beast with level 5 spells and an animal companion as strong as a ranger's will ever be, so you're still potent, just not as much as a straight druid would be.

However, a wildshaping ranger with Master of Many Forms isn't giving up nearly as much in terms of spells or animal companion. And the abilities they get are things that they would otherwise NEVER get. It's a clear improvement over the base class.

That's why the Master of Many Forms is considered a -1 tier PrC for druids, and a +1 tier PrC for rangers. Because each gives up and gains different things.