[3.5e] DM's and Divine Metamagic?

[Kaeso]

'Sup playground?

Divine metamagic hardly requires any introduction. It's the feat that turns "the guy that has some nifty spells and can whack a stick around pretty easily" into "the man that has some nifty spells and can break your face without trying" when combined with persist metamagic and the famous divine power spell. I have two questions about this feat, one factual, the other is related to personal experience:

1. Would it be correct to say that "divine metamagic" is to a cleric what "natural spell" is to a druid (or "power attack" to a barbarian)?

2. In your experience, do DM's ban divine metamagic a lot?

I don't have a lot of DnD games under my belt (yet), but in my experience a lot of people see divine metamagic as overpowered while natural spell is usually allowed, which completely nerfs the cleric (a class I have an inexplicable affection to :smallconfused:)

[dextercorvia]

1. No. You can do everything you need to without it. It is build intensive (and only worthwhile if you can get plenty of turn attempts). 4 feats including your two domain choices, is not worth just one persisted spell per day. I'm not saying it isn't awesome, but there is an opportunity cost. I'm more likely to take DMM Quicken than Persist, but that is because I'm more likely to play a caster cleric than a face smasher.


Compare to Natural spell, which is one feat, and just makes your class features work better together.

[Tancred]

As I understand it, Divine Metamagic becomes especially powerful when powered by Nightstick rods from Libris Mortis, which grant an additional 4 turning attempts per day.

This fuels the metamagic, allowing you to burn through each Nightstick as you cast and then draw another in time for your next spell.

If you had enough of them, you could be adding 4 levels of metamagic per round, every round, without having to slow down. You're only limited by WBL and it's a daily-renewable item.

[Vangor]

DMM is not necessary for the cleric to function as a tier 1 and requires the bulk of feats to operate near broken. The more feats free by flaws or taint, the more undead attempt stacking done, the more nightsticks, the more broken this can become. Should this be the cornerstone of a build, I might want to limit certain spells used, but this is more of a concern for fellow players than how overpowered DMM alone will be.

However, were DMM combined with the spell domain I would likely ban from the amount of nonsense I'll be experiencing. In my opinion, though, spell domain, madness domain, and initiate of Mystra are all more powerful individually than DMM.

[dextercorvia]

The main problems from the spell domain, are the Anyspell line, which allow you to cast Arcane spells, which explicity can't be affected by DMM.

[Vangor]

The main problems from the spell domain, are the Anyspell line, which allow you to cast Arcane spells, which explicity can't be affected by DMM.

Hrmm, can you cite this interaction? I see why this interpretation can exist, but I have always interpreted the fact of being a divine spell slot to matter rather than the list from where the spell was drawn from. I suppose "works as though...a wizard" would lend support to this, but what all is left after changing the attribute? Arcane spell failure and the fact of being an arcane spell, but simply saying the spell is still an arcane spell would have been much easier.

[Ormur]

Well it's not been a problem for me as a DM because there's no cleric in the party and it gives me an excuse for saying: "oh, he has that buff up even though you surprised him" for the NPCs. :smalltongue:

I do sacrifice the relevant feats and WBL though so no cheating.

[Kylarra]

Divine Metamagic is really only abusable with stackable nightsticks. Outside of that it's "just" really nice to have, but expensive in terms of feats since each one needs to have its own DMM feat.

[Veyr]

Persist Spell is the only metamagic really worth DMMing, IMO. Anything else is useable too few times per day to be worth it, I think. Quicken Spell's a decent option I guess, but especially on a prepared caster that can be a tough call. Plus it's not all that much cheaper than Persist, which seems to work out much better.

DMM(Persist) without Nightstick abuse is very good, but in a high-powered game it's not really a big deal. A typical DMM Cleric might be able to Persist two to four spells with DMM, and then only if he's put a fair amount of effort into it. The opportunity cost is quite high.

Obviously, if you expect things like Fighter and Barbarian to be relevant, the Cleric (any Cleric) is a problem, and DMM makes that worse.

[Elric VIII]

The main problems from the spell domain, are the Anyspell line, which allow you to cast Arcane spells, which explicity can't be affected by DMM.

Depending on how your DM rules on Anyspell's magic source (arcane or divine) you can get some great stuff going.

If he says it's divine, hello DMM Wraithstrike. If he says it's arcane, then take levels in Incantrix. :smallamused:


Persist Spell is the only metamagic really worth DMMing, IMO. Anything else is useable too few times per day to be worth it, I think. Quicken Spell's a decent option I guess, but especially on a prepared caster that can be a tough call. Plus it's not all that much cheaper than Persist, which seems to work out much better.

DMM(Persist) without Nightstick abuse is very good, but in a high-powered game it's not really a big deal. A typical DMM Cleric might be able to Persist two to four spells with DMM, and then only if he's put a fair amount of effort into it. The opportunity cost is quite high.

Obviously, if you expect things like Fighter and Barbarian to be relevant, the Cleric (any Cleric) is a problem, and DMM makes that worse.

Quicken + Easy Metamagic means you get one DMM Quicken/Nightstick. That becomes a very good deal and avoids the rule that Nightsticks don't stack.

[dextercorvia]

Hrmm, can you cite this interaction? I see why this interpretation can exist, but I have always interpreted the fact of being a divine spell slot to matter rather than the list from where the spell was drawn from. I suppose "works as though...a wizard" would lend support to this, but what all is left after changing the attribute? Arcane spell failure and the fact of being an arcane spell, but simply saying the spell is still an arcane spell would have been much easier.


Depending on how your DM rules on Anyspell's magic source (arcane or divine) you can get some great stuff going.

RAW is that a spell prepared with Anyspell is Arcane.


Anyspell allows you to read and prepare any arcane spell.... When you cast the arcane spell,...

A DM might rule otherwise, but that is the baseline. The Complete Divine errata states:


As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat
to divine spells that you know. . . .

Therefore, you have less to worry about with DMM and a Spell domain cleric. For that I much prefer the Spontaneous Domain ACF.

[Vangor]

RAW is that a spell prepared with Anyspell is Arcane.

While I see this, my concern is for spell slot. I mean, by RAW, the cleric is unable to cast arcane spells. Anyspell does not allow you to bypass this, though you may read and prepare the spells. Instead, this simply says "when you cast the arcane spell". Hence, while Anyspell allows a cleric to read and prepare an arcane spell, "arcane spell" is used for sake of understanding and the cleric still casts divine spells.

I would use my interpretation as a DM, but I would not be argumentative were a DM to tell me otherwise. I honestly just wish authors were a tad more explicit on many issues which seem obvious.

[dextercorvia]

While I see this, my concern is for spell slot. I mean, by RAW, the cleric is unable to cast arcane spells. Anyspell does not allow you to bypass this, though you may read and prepare the spells. Instead, this simply says "when you cast the arcane spell". Hence, while Anyspell allows a cleric to read and prepare an arcane spell, "arcane spell" is used for sake of understanding and the cleric still casts divine spells.

I would use my interpretation as a DM, but I would not be argumentative were a DM to tell me otherwise. I honestly just wish authors were a tad more explicit on many issues which seem obvious.

I won't argue about it. As you, I could roll with whichever a DM picks. But, I see this as a specific vs. general thing. Allowing the cleric to prepare and cast an Arcane spell despite being a cleric, is exactly what the spell is doing.

[Veyr]

It depends on the wording of the feat, but I tend to agree with Vangor's reasoning: unless it specifically says that the Cleric "casts this spell as an arcane spell", that is, ignoring alignment restrictions but having to deal with Arcane Spell Failure, the whole shebang, I'd be inclined to call it the "usually-arcane spell cast as divine" since the Cleric, generally, casts Divine spells.

Part of the issue is that the game does not very clearly define Divine and Arcane spells. Like, Detect Magic is not specifically an Arcane spell or specifically a Divine spell; it depends who is casting it to determine that.

[dextercorvia]

We are discussing the spell, Anyspell. I have a quote from Curmudgeon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11002991&postcount=9) stating that the prepared spell is Arcane if that would help.

[Veyr]

Curmudgeon is extremely knowledgeable about the rules, but I do not always agree with his interpretations. Heh, maybe "Curmudgeon is not RAW" should become a thing. Lord knows he's a lot closer than the FAQ ever was.

[dextercorvia]

Nor do I, but it does show that it isn't just my crazy theory.:smallbiggrin:

[Ernir]

For what it's worth, I agree with Dextercorvia's reading.
When you cast the arcane spell, it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level except that your Wisdom score sets the save DC...
The spell is an arcane spell.


1. Would it be correct to say that "divine metamagic" is to a cleric what "natural spell" is to a druid (or "power attack" to a barbarian)?

2. In your experience, do DM's ban divine metamagic a lot?

I don't have a lot of DnD games under my belt (yet), but in my experience a lot of people see divine metamagic as overpowered while natural spell is usually allowed, which completely nerfs the cleric (a class I have an inexplicable affection to :smallconfused:)

I think that would be oversimplifying Cleric build options. In my experience, more than many other feats. Probably because this feat is famous. Really, it's mentioned more often than stuff like Reserves of Strength and Assume Supernatural Ability/Metamorphic Transfer, which is kind of hilarious.

Personally, I'm inclined to allow the feat and disagree with Nightsticks being allowed to stack.

[Essence_of_War]

1. Would it be correct to say that "divine metamagic" is to a cleric what "natural spell" is to a druid (or "power attack" to a barbarian)?

Not exactly. DMM has to be built around to be effective. While Natural Spell is just comically good right out of the box.

To see why, you can look at the resource cost of doing silly things with the two. Natural Spell requires no additional resources to utilize. DMM has two modes that are worth considering, persist and quicken. Persist is typically WAY better if you have around the recommended number of encounters per day. Most clerics will want to persist both Divine Power and Righteous Might. To do this with the standard feat progression and w/o Nightstick abuse they need to get 12 turn attempts and need 3 feats (extend spell, persistent spell, DMM:Persist). With carefully chosen domains (Planning and Undead) they get a feat and 4 turn attempts respectively, they'll likely get AT LEAST 4 attempts just from being a cleric, and if they pick up 1 Nightstick they're good to go.

It's certainly not a hard build to get online, but it does require expending a number of resources compared with Natural Spell, or even Power Attack!.


2. In your experience, do DM's ban divine metamagic a lot?
No. In my experience they typically do 1 of a few things.
1) Ban Nightstick Abuse - forces people to persist a more reasonable number of spells. In fact, I've never been with a DM who allowed this.

2) Ban DMM:Persist but not DMM:Quicken - Lets the cleric have his buffing fun, but makes him burn a larger number of turning attempts and swift actions as he buffs in-combat. Usually, if you have more than 2 encounters per day, they won't be able to get Righteous Might + Divine Power online in every combat. Because of the RKV, it is important that 1) also apply!

3) Metagame it - have every caster in the game hit them with targeted dispels whenever they see them. This is probably a really bad way of handling DMM:Persist if it becomes an issue.

Personally, I'd strongly consider banning DMM completely if the rest of the party is higher tier and/or lower optimization level AND the cleric wants to use it as a melee buff. DMM is a tool, and a very powerful one at that. The cleric doesn't need it to be solid, but if you allow them to have it, expect them to overshadow all or most non-ToB melee, in melee.

In a high OP/low tier game, I'd strongly consider just letting them use it w/o Nightstick abuse.

[Akal Saris]

Yeah, I can't see DMM as central to clerics. It's an optimized choice, but you can easily build a strong cleric without DMM - especially if you want to focus on blasting, archery, or summoning, and therefore have other good feats to choose from. The cleric I'm currently playing doesn't have room for 1 spare feat, let alone 3 and a bunch of nightsticks.

Druids, on the other hand, really need Natural Spell to be optimized - the only time I would make a druid without it would be if I were playing level 12+ and planned on using dragon wildshape all the time.

[Kaeso]

I see that a lot of you don't consider DMM to be vital to a cleric, but what would be other good feats to select in it's stead for the following roles*?:
-Melee smasher
-Caster cleric (healing, buffing, damage, battlefield controll, basically a divine wizard with armor)
-Cleric Archer (besides the obvious Zen Archery)
*of course, combinations of these roles and/or other roles are fine too.

I'm inclined to believe that the first choice is impossible without DMM and the second is quite weak.

[Veyr]

For what it's worth, I agree with Dextercorvia's reading.
The spell is an arcane spell.
Yeah, "cast as a Wizard" cinches it. I didn't bother actually checking the spell's description.

[Godskook]

1. Would it be correct to say that "divine metamagic" is to a cleric what "natural spell" is to a druid (or "power attack" to a barbarian)?

Nope, not in the least. For several reasons:

1.Its simply not needed to 'zilla as a Cleric. It just means you can 'zilla *ALL DAY*, essentially breaking the spells/day limitation and the duration factors of the spells all in one go.

2.Natural Spell doesn't actually give the druid anything in the same way DMM does. Natural Spell is more comparable to a really good precise shot.

3.Power attack, otoh, has its nearly required Shock Trooper banned often enough that I could see a more valid comparison, but power attack is to a Barbarian what power attack is to a cleric. You're going to have to find a different feat to compare to.


2. In your experience, do DM's ban divine metamagic a lot?

DMM is simply over the top good, and if not nerfed, should be banned.

Personally, I stealth nerf it, by nerfing metamagic mitigation as a whole, such that a PC is required to be able to cast a spell with metamagic naturally* before he's able to apply any mitigation to it. Classes with 'free' metamagics are handled on a case-by-case basis.

*By naturally, I mean that you must be able to cast spells one level higher than any you wish to extend, and 6 levels higher than one you wish to persist, etc.


I don't have a lot of DnD games under my belt (yet), but in my experience a lot of people see divine metamagic as overpowered while natural spell is usually allowed, which completely nerfs the cleric (a class I have an inexplicable affection to :smallconfused:)

Completely nerfs the cleric?!??! Ha! Cleric is one of the stronger classes in the book, and do just fine without DMM.

Edit: Just so your second post.

--------------------------


I see that a lot of you don't consider DMM to be vital to a cleric, but what would be other good feats to select in it's stead for the following roles*?:
-Melee smasher
-Caster cleric (healing, buffing, damage, battlefield controll, basically a divine wizard with armor)
-Cleric Archer (besides the obvious Zen Archery)
*of course, combinations of these roles and/or other roles are fine too.

I'm inclined to believe that the first choice is impossible without DMM and the second is quite weak.

Melee Smasher:
-Power Attack->Shock Trooper
-Holy Warrior
-Domain Spontaneity
-Animal, Knowledge and Strength Devotion

That's 8 feats right there, more than most clerics ever get.

Archer:
-Zen Archery(repeated from your post)
-Knowledge Devotion
-Protection Devotion
-Holy Warrior
-Domain Spontaneity
-Travel Devotion

Caster:
-Touch of Healing(It removes a good portion of the healing load from your spells)
-Heighten, Extend, Quicken, and Persist metamagic(you're still going to be able to us them)
-Protection Devotion

[DarkEternal]

I usually ban nightsticks from my world, since it makes the game stupid. I don't really mind a cleric being powerful, I do mind him being more powerful then all the other party members put together.

Still, with a wizard in tow, even without nightsticks a cleric is pretty damn strong with all the crap he can do. I remember on level 18 when he pretty much one shotted the last boss of the campaign by doing over 350 damage in one full turn of attacking when buffed up. It was...depressing to say at the very least.

[Godskook]

Still, with a wizard in tow, even without nightsticks a cleric is pretty damn strong with all the crap he can do. I remember on level 18 when he pretty much one shotted the last boss of the campaign by doing over 350 damage in one full turn of attacking when buffed up. It was...depressing to say at the very least.

You have campaign bosses for ECL 18 campaigns that can be 1-shotted by anything near 350 damage? Seriously*? My boss level NPCs are starting to breach 100 HP for ECL *6* PCs, and the closest thing to a campaign-ending boss I got atm is the Tarrasque 2.0. There's also the issue that such bosses should have a dispel minion handy for ruining the PCs, if they can't dispel themselves.

*Now, if this were a Lich, Astral Projection, or other form of "can't kill me in 1-shot period" boss, I could accept 350 HP.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

DMM is a problem without nightsticks if you build correctly. I have a codzilla build that gets hundreds of turn attem