Explain This

[pegase]

Let's say I hypothetically lock up a warforged in an obsidian chamber with no entrance nor exit, but with a bright light source.

Now, every day a monster of the appropriate CR is spawned inside the chamber such that the warforged can handily defeat the monster. He does this 'till he's a level 30 rogue. OK?

He takes 33 ranks in knowledge (the planes). Pray tell, as a GM, how would you explain this randomly begotten knowledge? How does this hypothetical warforged learn about the planes having been locked up in a room with no source of information for his entire life?

[hivedragon]

Oh no, the poor catgirls!!!!!

[QuidEst]

Well, if I were in his position, I would attempt to work out what made all these monsters spawn, and where the bodies go. It's the only thing that ever happens, and after I beat them up, I have lots of time to think. Sounds close enough to Knowledge(Planes) to me. Failing that, if you're locked up with no escape, studying the planes makes for your best hope of escape. Getting over to the Shadow Plane would let you stroll out using a monster's shadow.

Why the question?

[Vangor]

How does this hypothetical warforged learn about the planes having been locked up in a room with no source of information for his entire life?

By writing "33" in the ranks column for "knowledge: the planes". Does the game necessitate a reason for those ranks? Well then, the reason has to come before the ranks or else no ranks. Otherwise, do not worry.

[ImperatorK]

And how did this Rogue get 33 ranks in a cross-class skill? :smallconfused:

[hivedragon]

It might not make sense in our world, however in D&D the planes are an actual place known to exist. Not only that but thoughts, objects and even creatures can freely pass between them. A cleric can mentally contact the upper planes and draw matter from there which forms into a sapient creature on the material plane, even a type of creature said cleric has never lain his eyes on.

[BlueInc]

I kind of view skill points as a mix of "what stuck" and "personal development" in an adventurer.

"What stuck" - Of all the things you did, what did you learn from? If you climb things and then put ranks in climb when you level up, you're showing your character improved at that. This is how you seem to view skills.

"Personal Development" - I also feel like a certain amount of what goes on in a rpg goes on off-screen. For example, a cleric might studiously put ranks in Knowledge (Religion), even if he has never had to make one of these checks and doesn't specifically say in game "Hey, I'm going to go to the temple library and read about undead."

For your scenario it could be a mix of "what stuck" in terms of what he learned from fighting extraplanar creatures (and how they might summon more creatures) and "personal development" of studying the bodies of extraplanar creatures, etc.

[Amnestic]

"It's magic, I don't have to explain it."

[OracleofWuffing]

"The Warforged has midichlorians, and that's what you get for asking."

[Flame of Anor]

Oh no, the poor catgirls!!!!!

This is the only correct answer. Sorry, OP.

[erikun]

That the same character can have 33 ranks in Profession: Sailor without ever having seen water or a boat, can have 33 ranks in Perform: Pipe Organ despite not even being familiar with such an instrument, and can have 33 ranks in Craft: Wedding Cake despite never eating, tasting, or even realizing what food is. I think you might be asking the wrong question here.

The warforged has plenty of time to ask the monsters spawned inside about where they come from, along with lots of time to philosophize. High ranks in Knowledge: Planes wouldn't necessarily be out of place.

[Fax Celestis]

Skill points are a mechanical construct based off of a need for game balance, not an equivocation of fluff. Your character can play the viola (the fluffy part) without having ranks in Perform (Viola): she just can't make money doing so (the mechanical part).

[Honest Tiefling]

He was stuck in a room with nothing to do but to punch planar critters in the face and then only had their entrails to amuse himself with. Maybe he's really good at planar biology? Maybe someone shouted 'I will send you to the pits of Cania!' and he pummeled the next dude for information regarding this 'Cania' before putting it out of its misery.

[stainboy]

In his abundant free time he learned to access his own magical programming through meditation, used that to learn advanced mathematics and arcane theory, then derived the structure of the planes from base principles.


Maybe someone shouted 'I will send you to the pits of Cania!' and he pummeled the next dude for information regarding this 'Cania' before putting it out of its misery.

Cania? So he gets out of there with 33 ranks in Knowledge: Great Wheel... in Eberron. Man, that's just mean.

[Cicciograna]

If I were the DM, I'd say that he can't gain those 33 ranks.

Quoting from Player's Handbook, sidebar on page 64:

ACCESS TO SKILLS
The rules assume that a character can find a way to learn any skill. For
instance, if Jozan wants to learn Profession (sailor), nothing in the rules
exists to stop him. However, the DM is in charge of the world and makes
all the decisions about where one can learn certain skills and where one
can’t. While Jozan is living in a desert, for example, the DM can decide
that he has no way of learning to be a sailor. It’s up to the DM to say
whether a character can learn a given skill in a given setting.

Emphasis mine. So if I were the DM, I'd say that without some source for this type of knowledge, those 33 ranks cannot be taken.

Moreover, but this is just an opinion of mine, "trained only" skills require formal training not only to be used, but also to be learnt (but I repeat, this is only an opinion): so without a library or some other sources of planar lore I'd say that the 33 ranks cannot come from nowhere.

[Winds]

Stuff quoted from the RAW

Thank you for posting the pre-written answer to the OP's question.

Yes, by RAW as written, the DM can freely rule how, why, or why not whenever you learn a new skill. That's pretty much all there is to be said-either you require them to have a defined way of learning or you don't worry about it.

[Yuki Akuma]

He can't have 33 ranks in Knowledge (the Planes). The most he can have is 16 (costing 32 skill points).

[Curmudgeon]

And how did this Rogue get 33 ranks in a cross-class skill? :smallconfused:
It's not a cross-class skill if you take the Education feat at level 1. For an autodidact (self-educated character) that's essential; how else are they going to deduce planar knowledge from a magical monster-spawning system?

[Yuki Akuma]

It's not a cross-class skill if you take the Education feat at level 1. For an autodidact (self-educated character) that's essential; how else are they going to deduce planar knowledge from a magical monster-spawning system?

Doesn't that feat imply some sort of formalised education? That'd be like a Warforged Wizard taking Collegiate Wizard or Precocious Apprentice in the same circumstances.

[Big Fau]

This thread serves to teach us only one thing: As Erwin Schrödinger learned, putting things in a box never works out for thought experiments.

[shadow_archmagi]

This thread serves to teach us only one thing: As Erwin Schrödinger learned, putting things in a box never works out for thought experiments.

Well done, Big Fau. You've won the thread!

[Yuki Akuma]

This thread serves to teach us only one thing: As Erwin Schrödinger learned, putting things in a box never works out for thought experiments.

Erwin Schrödinger already knew that before his famous 'thought experiment', because he was trying to demonstrate how absurd the theory was.

[Eldan]

Primus took pity on him and beamed the knowledge into his head from the orrery.

[Urpriest]

The answer is simple: he wasn't trapped in a box.

Only PCs gain XP from fights in a straightforward manner, since NPC levels are determined by CR and EL guidelines, not challenges that they've overcome. So this warforged is a PC.

As a PC, this warforged is part of a campaign, and campaigns have a certain structure. This includes WBL and downtime. Not only skills, but class features (the Wizard's automatic spell acquisition) are based on the ability to spend downtime in a useful place. This isn't some sort of contingent situation, this is how the game is played. So the warforged, as a PC, has had opportunities to venture outside of that box and confer with fellow scholars, and those opportunities are assumed to have happened regardless of what happens "on-screen". The box is not inescapable, the DM is constrained to provide a campaign that includes downtime and the like (absent ruling that downtime related abilities do not occur, as suggested above). So if the DM is allowing the purchase of the skill ranks, then the warforged has had time outside of the box.

This is actually in some ways analogous to Schrodinger's cat: like Schrodinger, you only take into account one of the consequences of the subject's nature (the cat's mortality, the warforged's ability to gain XP), without considering its full implications (the cat's status as an observing system, the warforged's downtime).

[big teej]

Let's say I hypothetically lock up a warforged in an obsidian chamber with no entrance nor exit, but with a bright light source.

Now, every day a monster of the appropriate CR is spawned inside the chamber such that the warforged can handily defeat the monster. He does this 'till he's a level 30 rogue. OK?

He takes 33 ranks in knowledge (the planes). Pray tell, as a GM, how would you explain this randomly begotten knowledge? How does this hypothetical warforged learn about the planes having been locked up in a room with no source of information for his entire life?

I'd rule it one of two ways.

my intial reaction was "simple, the monsters had to come from somewhere.

my other reaction was "simple, you don't"

[DonDuckie]

By the power of deduction(sit and think 'til you get it). Some philosophers believed it was the only way to learn truth. I lean towards testing, eg. the corpses that were probably planeshifted or teleported in there, some of them might even be convenient outsiders.

:smallconfused: extra: I don't get poor catgirls thingy. Explain?

[Urpriest]

By the power of deduction. Some philosophers believed it was the only way to learn truth. I lean towards testing, eg. the corpses that were probably planeshifted or teleported in there, some of them might even be convenient outsiders.

:smallconfused:extra: I don't get poor catgirls thnigy. Explain?

There's a saying: every time you try to apply real-world physics to D&D, a catgirl dies.

[DonDuckie]

There's a saying: every time you try to apply real-world physics to D&D, a catgirl dies.

*giggle* that's brilliant...

[Yuki Akuma]

Technically, it's this: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060605112733/uncyclopedia/images/b/be/God_kills_catgirl.gif

But you know, whatever.

[HalfDragonCube]

There's a saying: every time you try to apply real-world physics to D&D, a catgirl dies.

Hang on, people keep asking about my parents and that they couldn't possibly have-

So if a catgirl dies every time they say that, then I am the indirect cause of the death of hundreds of catgirls.

I'm a catgirl killin' machine!

[Thurbane]

And how did this Rogue get 33 ranks in a cross-class skill? :smallconfused:
Well, he obviously racked up at least 4 ranks in Knowledge (local - the metal box!), then prayed to Boccob or some other deity to grab the Knowledge Devotion feat at 3rd level. :smalltongue: