Shugenja's don't suck

[Maho-Tsukai]

When they have access to D20 Rokugan material. D20 Rokugan gives the shugenja all kinds of options and expands their spell list from a small and limited list to a much larger, robust list to choose from. In addition, they get more "orders/schools" and a variant class/ACF that lets them choose "schools/orders" based on the various realms of the afterlife, as well as swapping their good will save for a good fort save and replacing the sense elements power for detect passages. D20 Rokugan also provides the shugenja with all kinds of feats, including one that gives them a full power turn undead, allowing them easy access to Divine Metamagic. In addition, they can also learn Maho-list spells as off-element(or not off element by taking the Maho PrC.), which gives them access to some powerful save or dies as well as EVEN MORE exclusive spells.

So, while not tier 1-2s, I would say that with access to D20 Rokugan materials the shugenja is not as weak as people claim and becomes a solid tier 3. With spell compendium it may even reach the lower ends of Tier 2, though I am not sure.

[Yuki Akuma]

No, they don't. Shugenjas are low Tier 2 or high Tier 3. That's not "sucky" by any means.

They're not as good as Clerics, but most classes aren't!

[Talya]

I don't think anyone has ever...let me correct that, I don't think very many people say Shugenja's suck. They're very hard to judge, though. A water Shugenja is going to play out very similar to a Healer, but with a lot more options, which is going to come in at a high tier 4-tolow tier 3. A Fire Shugenja is going to end up a far more versatile Warmage, which is solid Tier 3-perhaps even teir 2. It's really too bad their spellbooks didn't get more support from splatbooks, but Tier 3 is really the ideal point for balance.

[shadow_archmagi]

I thought the system went

1-2 omnipotent

3-4 potent

5-6 impotent

[Psyren]

They're easily T3 without any Rokugan material. This thread is unnecessary.

[Yuki Akuma]

This thread is unnecessary.

Welcome to the Giant in the Playground forums, where most threads are unnecessary.

[gbprime]

Agreed. Shugenja is the way to go when you want a cleric who is good at his job but not good at everyone ELSE'S job too. A lot of DM's prefer it this way. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Welcome to the Giant in the Playground forums, where most threads are unnecessary.

Speaking of which, when will you guys be done glorifying animated ponies? :smallwink:

[shadow_archmagi]

Speaking of which, when will you guys be done glorifying animated ponies? :smallwink:

At least they're not glorifying sacks of violins...

[Moose Man]

Or glorifying the need for flying squirrel rights.

[Yuki Akuma]

Speaking of which, when will you guys be done glorifying animated ponies? :smallwink:

When the series ends, I guess.

(Note that I don't post in the MLP threads, so I have no idea.)

[Amphetryon]

Agreed. Shugenja is the way to go when you want a cleric who is good at his job but not good at everyone ELSE'S job too. A lot of DM's prefer it this way. :smallbiggrin:

They're also good situations where you rolled poorly enough to need a SAD class, especially if your DM is old-school enough to use the Iron Fist method of "stats placed in order rolled". Party needs a divine caster and CHA is much higher than WIS? BAM! Shugenja!

Alternately, they work well to fill out the caster roles when the other primary caster has taken a list-caster that leaves a specific role unattended. Your group's arcanist is a DN? Roll up a Spellscale Fire Shugenja, and cover healing and some direct damage at once, without being redundant to the DN's role.

The fact that Clerics are BETTER doesn't make Shugenjas BAD. :smallsmile:

[Yuki Akuma]

Fire Shugenjas can't heal. If you want to heal and blast, you need to go Earth or Air.

[Amphetryon]

Fire Shugenjas can't heal.

Spellscales get special exception through the right rituals. That's why I specified race.

[Sir Homeslice]

What about their don't suck, OP? You kind of left me hanging at the topic title, since your post wasn't that informative about it.

[Yuki Akuma]

Spellscales get special exception through the right rituals. That's why I specified race.

Oh, okay then.

[Maho-Tsukai]

The reason I made the thread is that I have heard people saying shugenja are tier 4 when I always considered them tier 3. Rokugan material and/or spell compendium may boost them to tier 2, even, especially since with Rokugan they can gain turn undead(and rebuke if your DM allows a feat refluff) so they become very potent DMM users with cha as their casting stat.

[Yuki Akuma]

The reason I made the thread is that I have heard people saying shugenja are tier 4 when I always considered them tier 3. Rokugan material and/or spell compendium may boost them to tier 2, even, especially since with Rokugan they can gain turn undead(and rebuke if your DM allows a feat refluff) so they become very potent DMM users with cha as their casting stat.

People who say they're Tier 4 are wrong. They may not be as good as Spirit Shamans, Favoured Souls or Sorcerers, but they're still spontaneous 9th spellcasters.

(And those three are only as good as they are because they use the Druid, Cleric and Wizard spell lists, which are constantly updated and are pretty awesome to begin with.)

With constant updating, Shugenjas would likely be Tier 2.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I stated above that Shugenja got a lot of updates via D20 Rokugan, including ACFs and an entire "spell compendium" just for them. Not to mention that D20 Rokugan made Maho spells easily obtainable for shugenja, and even further added MANY spells to the Maho list. So with maho list access and all the spells shugenja got for D20 Rokugan their list is already quite robust, more so then the Wu-Jen, who is already considered a tier 2. Add in spell compendium(which actually gives tips for expanding the shugenja list) and they easily jump up to tier 2. Add some of the necromancy and [evil] spells from spell compendium to the Maho list and they have even more to pick from. The only downside to the Maho list access is that they need Maho scrolls to learn Maho spells before they PrC out into Maho-Tsukai, and chances are your not going to find that many Maho scrolls. I do believe many GMs, if alerted that you wanted to obtain some Maho spells prior to the Maho PrC would be fine with ditching the scroll element and just saying that shugenja can take Maho spells off-element without having to own said maho spell in written form due to Maho scrolls not being all that common.

[Jude_H]

Masters of the Wild's Hexer is an amazing PrC. It's 10/10 divine casting, 10/10 BA, it has high hit dice and a bunch of Charisma-based curses it can toss on its enemies.

Its downside is its entry: it requires Lightning Bolt as a Divine spell.

There are only two classes that come with Divine Lightning Bolts built in: the Adept and the Shugenja.

That alone is enough to make the Shugenja interesting, IMO.

[mootoall]

I smell third party sources making overpowered additions. I *like* my T3 characters. I *don't* want them to be T2.

[Hazzardevil]

Welcome to the Giant in the Playground forums, where most threads are unnecessary.

Can I quote that?

[Yuki Akuma]

Can I quote that?

You just did.

If you mean in your signature, go ahead. :smalltongue:

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, just read the Hexer now, seems like it would be wonderfully flavorful with a Hengyoaki Shugenja provided you could get your DM to consider hengyoaki feral/wild enough to enter the class. The only downside is the hex DCs are wisdom-based, though if we're using Hengiyoaki as an entrance we're already in the house-rule territory and since Shugenja are a non-overpowered class with no class features I most likely would try and get a houserule to make it work on cha instead of wis.

I personally prefer a Soultwister Shugenja(Jijoku)/Bloodspeaker Cultist(Maho that dose not cast off of or suppress it's taint(though it beafs up your will save to resist the tainting effect of maho magic by a ton.), so basically a less broken Maho.) which unlike a standard shugenja IS a tier 2 due to having access to both the shugenja, Maho AND wiz/sorc list, though you don't get wiz/sorc list access until the last level of the class(it's the capstone.) Add in the no-brainier feat refluff to get rebuking and sprinkle in a level of contemplative for the deathbound domain and you now have an awesome Oriental Necromancer.

Also, note that the Bloodspeaker Cultist capstone allows you to level up in sorcerer yet stay a divine spellcaster, which MAY qualify you for spellstitching, depending on how your DM sees things. Your not an arcane caster, but have levels in the sorc class and I did hear that to spellstitch all you need is craft wondrous item, wiz/sorc levels and the ability to cast the spell in question. You would still need to be arcane to spellstitch yourself if undead, but as far as spellstitching your minions gose the capstone may allow you to qualify but I am not 100% sure.

[TheThan]

My problem with the Shugenja and the Wu Jen for that matter is that they have very few spells that are unique to them. The Wu Jen’s spell list is basically just a copy/paste of the sorcerer/wizard spell list. While the Shugenja ‘s is just a copy paste of the cleric spell list. Which at that point, you might as well play a wizard over the Wu Jen and a cleric over a Shugenja. That’s a shame really; it makes an otherwise very interesting class boring, redundant and uninspiring.

[Maho-Tsukai]

D20 Rokugan changed that for Shugenja, actually, giving their list plenty of exclusive spells, as well as giving them easy access to the Maho list, which D20 Rokugan also buffed up with a LOT of exclusive spells. So using D20 Rokugan the Shugenja's have enough unique spells to be different from a cleric, and shugenjas also get some nice new feats and even an ACF or two, including the aforementioned soultwister shugenja.(Though I think there may be some others). They also get PrCs tailor-made to them(such as the Bloodspeaker Cultist that I had mentioned above), too.

If you want to play a shugenja who's different from the cleric, I highly sugjest you pick up the D20 Rokugan campaign setting, the D20 version of "Way of the Shugenja", "Magic of Rokugan" and the bloodspeakers book. All of those contain plenty of new spells, PrCs, feats ect... made just for shugenjas that give them a mechanical identity that is not just a tier 3 cleric. Some spells may not be applicable or useful outside of a rokugan campaign(Those dealing with void points and the ones that ward against/combat the taint and tainted creatures come to mind.) but there is still plenty of nice exclusive spells that you can pick up.

[Veyr]

I smell third party sources making overpowered additions. I *like* my T3 characters. I *don't* want them to be T2.
Shugenja probably were a weak Tier 2 to begin with, though.

[Ozreth]

Wait, what else would you use other than the d20 rokugan book (which im assuming is Oriental Adventures for 3.0?).

What other sources can you use for a d&d game with shugenja?

[Thurbane]

Almost no full casters "suck", even the Healer (given enough resources). There's always a way to get extra spells on your list, and access to level 9 spells, even mediocre ones, is better than what most non casting characters get...

[Maho-Tsukai]

@Ozreth:

No, I don't mean OA. I mean the D20 Rokugan supliments FOR OA that are technically not D&D sourcebooks but still wizards-made. The following books are the ones I use for my shugenja resources...

D20 Rokugan Campaign Setting: The basic book for D20 Rokugan. It has resources for all the OA classes and also adds a new class that's based around social manipulation/diplomancy known as the "courtier." It also has an alternate version of the ninja that gets actual sneak attack and other goodies. It has some stuff for shugenja such as a few clan specific spells and such, but not much. Still an important book as the others reference it and it has rules for some things you may want to use, such as void points.

Way of the Shugenja: An excellent resource for shugenjas. Includes both Legend of the 5 Rings content AND D20 Rokugan content, the latter being the important here. It includes new feats, new spells as well as some PrCs and ACFs for shugenja, some of them quite good.

Magic of Rokugan: The shugenja's spell compendium and pretty much the must-have book for shugenja spell list expansion. This is pretty much an entire sourcebook dedicated to the sole purpose of expanding the shugenja's spell list. It also includes some nice feats.

Bloodspeakers: While not DIRECTLY a Shugenja support supplement, it is the ultimate book for users of tainted Maho Magic, which a shugenja can be built to be quite easily. If you plan on playing an evil shugenja you should have this book as shugenja can access the Maho list through many means and getting Maho spells should be something an evil shugenja should at the least consider. If you don't like or don't ever play evil you need not bother with this one, though.


All of these books are Oriental Adventures compliments, but not labeled as D&D books as during the period Wizards made the Legends of the Five Rings RPG they also made "D20 Rokugan" which WAS D&D with strictly Oriental classes. These books are all from "D20 Rokugan" but perfectly comparable with Normal D&D since D20 Rokugan IS more or less D&D, so yeah. Some of these also have LR5R RPG content too.

[Psyren]

Wait, what else would you use other than the d20 rokugan book (which im assuming is Oriental Adventures for 3.0?).

What other sources can you use for a d&d game with shugenja?

Spell Compendium (pg. 4) recommends adding elemental- and weather-themed spells to their list. It also recommends lifting these from the Druid list.

This gives you a huge grabbag of spells to choose from - nearly everything that isn't plant- and animal-themed.

These themes can also be extended to nearly everything in Sandstorm, Frostburn and Stormwrack.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, and dosen't spell compendium also say while not the best idea, you can expand the Maho list to include [evil] spells and Necromancy spells? If so they you have a WHOLE BUNCH to choose from simply via Maho list acssess(If your using the D20 Rokugan rule that shugenja can learn Maho spells as off-element spells, that is.)

[Kantolin]

A house rule (That is completely a house rule, mind you) that helps make Shugenja more interesting to me is to remove the 'opposites' system.

So allow them to pick any element (Say, Fire), and ban any other element (Say, Air).

Most people I know who look at them want to play healers who can blast, and that shouldn't boost actual power much - just allows for more fun versatility ^_^

[mootoall]

Yeah, and dosen't spell compendium also say while not the best idea, you can expand the Maho list to include [evil] spells and Necromancy spells? If so they you have a WHOLE BUNCH to choose from simply via Maho list acssess(If your using the D20 Rokugan rule that shugenja can learn Maho spells as off-element spells, that is.)

But ... why?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Because without D20 Rokugan the Maho list is quite anemic and about on par with the Blighter, and we know how well recieved that list is. Though WITH D20 Rokugan spells the Maho list really dose not need all that much buffing since it gets a lot of good stuff, but it still would help. Especially seeing the absurd size of the wiz/sorc, druid and cleric lists.