Chassis that allow fighty/sneaky/casty characters

[Coidzor]

So I've been thinking about how to model special ops beyond "lol, wizard" or having a couple of bards that specialize while retaining their core competencies, and wondering what sort of character chassis best allow this sort of thing.

I'm thinking Binders and Incarnates are probably pretty viable options just from general reputation but I've not had the opportunity to really get a personal feel for them myself. I imagine Druid could do it the easiest with skill points if he wanted to know nothing about nature even without wildshaping out of the Big 6, followed probably by either Artificer or Archivist, seems like it would inconvenience Cleric & Wizard the most to grab the third area and maintain ground in the other two they can easily do, but that might be my inexperience showing.

Some way of making gishes sneakier without relying on pearls of power or knowstones to maintain the dual competencies & have some casting left over would be pretty nice though.

Part of it is the idea of having competency in all of those areas while avoiding making the characters too samey.

edit: Tentative list of things that seem most suited towards this sort of thing:
Druid
Mystic Ranger (with or without Sword of the Arcane Order/Wildshaping)
Factotum
Binder
Incarnum(?) Incarnate with totemist melds/Totemist with some incarnate melds?
Beguiler + Gishing?
Bard (with or without specialization, but probably with)
Psionics > Slayer?


Any decent homebrew that anyone recalls that would seem to offer something to either fill or help something that already covers some of the bases fill them better would be of interest as well.

[HalfDragonCube]

Hmm... Factotum and warblade synergise with wizard if you can find some way of fitting them together with everything sucking.

[Zaq]

Incarnates actually have a very hard time getting Hide/MS. Those are mostly (perhaps entirely) Totemist melds. Nothing you can't solve with a feat or two (Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws, anyone?) or a dip, and Incarnate is good for doing stuff once you're inside, but they need to work a little bit to get the stealthy part.

Alternatively, if you're willing to burn 3 levels, you can go for Umbral Disciple and get (basically) HiPS. Tricky to enter on an Incarnate, though.

[Jude_H]

edit: I think I misunderstood the project.

[Coidzor]

So am I just spouting raw stupid or gobbledegook then?

Something I need to clarify?

[Eldariel]

From level 8, Rogue 1/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Incantatrix 3 with Divine Power from Arcane Disciple could pull this off. All day full BAB, average 6+Int skills with most skills in class and almost full casting.

[Big Fau]

Incarnates actually have a very hard time getting Hide/MS. Those are mostly (perhaps entirely) Totemist melds. Nothing you can't solve with a feat or two (Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws, anyone?) or a dip, and Incarnate is good for doing stuff once you're inside, but they need to work a little bit to get the stealthy part.

Alternatively, if you're willing to burn 3 levels, you can go for Umbral Disciple and get (basically) HiPS. Tricky to enter on an Incarnate, though.

Incarnates have an easier time with Move Silently thanks to a few Soulmelds (you can cover a lot of ground with the 20 round limit on the Apparition Ribbon), but stealth is more the Totemist's strength (thanks to the Shadow Mantle, Phase Cloak, and Blink Shirt).

[Jude_H]

So am I just spouting raw stupid or gobbledegook then?

Something I need to clarify?
I don't think so; my confusion was probably coming from a certain degree of forum auto-pilot. I initially thought you were looking for a chassis for a special-ops type character that's simultaneously skilled in fighting, sneaking and casting. That's trivial with things like Cloistered Cleric, Unseen Seer, Sublime Chord, Artificer, Factotum, Slayer &c.

Looking back at the OP, it looks like you're asking for a mechanical class or baseline that can be shared by a group, but specialized in multiple directions.

I think Artificer would be an ideal model. It provides incredible flexibility and potential for differentiation, allowing different roles and archetypes to be competently modeled by the same mechanics, depending on the types of gadgets a player wants to make.

Pretty much any prepared caster, meldshaper, binder, etc. should be versatile enough to cover any of the roles, but with their abilities to shift their specializations and to redetermine roles, the mechanical sameness of a group of those characters could be pretty boring. Focused Specialist Wizards and Incarnates might have a little less overlap than most, but there could still be quite a bit of redundancy.

Pretty much any spontaneous full caster or manifester would allow specialization and competency in a number of areas. The "Spontaneous" qualifier would allow specialization, while most spell lists have the ability to focus a character into one of multiple roles (excluding the niche casters like Dread Necro & co). That means Psions, Wilders, Ardents, Shugenja, Favored Souls, Sorcerers, Battle Sorcerers and Spontaneous Clerics/Druids/Shamans.

[Eldariel]

Oh yeah, Cloistered Cleric is an incredibly easy shell for this; get DMM, get level 7, maybe dip Ruathar for 1-3 levels, grab skill-granting Domains, done. You actually get to hard-learn all skills AND fighting in addition to having spells replicate skills' functions. Able Leaner for major win.

[Coidzor]

I don't think so; my confusion was probably coming from a certain degree of forum auto-pilot. I initially thought you were looking for a chassis for a special-ops type character that's simultaneously skilled in fighting, sneaking and casting. That's trivial with things like Cloistered Cleric, Unseen Seer, Sublime Chord, Artificer, Factotum, Slayer &c.

Looking back at the OP, it looks like you're asking for a mechanical class or baseline that can be shared by a group, but specialized in multiple directions.

Partially that, since I'm trying to come up with things that would be good for multiple factions of antagonists with different flavors as well as having more options for players if I want them to be playing along similar lines or having it so that all characters have to be either fighty and sneaky(skillfulish?) or sneaky and casty.

Something where it's appropriate and expected to have to sneak around a hardened defense point, say, but also able to take out a room full of bruisers or deal with supernatural effects without being outgunned easily.

So I'm both looking for multiple and varied chassis about equally, while cutting down on the risk of redundancy or sameyness of play, just because I want everyone capable of sneaky doesn't mean I want them to all do it in the same way per se or end up approaching combat in the same mindset.

I also partially wanted to make sure my knowledge base is expanded outside of the Tier 1 and 2 options(though I also want to be aware of those as well), so that I feel slightly more... varied or at least just feel like the kinds of options I'm dealing with won't risk overwhelming me when I'm creating the overview types of NPCs. As well as having options to offer to players without having to go through and specifically limit access to certain spells to avoid simply obviating the point entirely.


I think Artificer would be an ideal model. It provides incredible flexibility and potential for differentiation, allowing different roles and archetypes to be competently modeled by the same mechanics, depending on the types of gadgets a player wants to make. Very good point... They do get enough skill points and the ability to buff themselves to be able to do just about anything so they're sorta like Q and Bond rolled into one... :smallamused:



Pretty much any prepared caster, meldshaper, binder, etc. should be versatile enough to cover any of the roles, but with their abilities to shift their specializations and to redetermine roles, the mechanical sameness of a group of those characters could be pretty boring. Focused Specialist Wizards and Incarnates might have a little less overlap than most, but there could still be quite a bit of redundancy.

Indeed, the overlap and redundancy bit is somewhat of a concern for the player side of things, though I think in my personal case the players I'd attract (unless I end up testing out this campaign setting on the boards) would be unlikely to go for a party of all the same wizards anyway.


Pretty much any spontaneous full caster or manifester would allow specialization and competency in a number of areas. The "Spontaneous" qualifier would allow specialization, while most spell lists have the ability to focus a character into one of multiple roles (excluding the niche casters like Dread Necro & co). That means Psions, Wilders, Ardents, Shugenja, Favored Souls, Sorcerers, Battle Sorcerers and Spontaneous Clerics/Druids/Shamans.

So Psionics would be able to deal with this? I'm woefully unfamiliar with psionics at the moment, being only familiar with them in passing for Psi-Gishing and providing a good baseline for Blasting.

Wasn't really sure if the limited spells known of most spontaneous casters would be an issue or not, since it always feels like a huge noose for sorcerers and favored souls that want to be able to do more than 1 or 2 things whenever I've read over them. Though that would be good for antagonists as well, since the wholes that the players might have in common with them could be partially plugged by the magic items/wands/scrolls the antagonists used to make up for their own limitations but also provides a convenient way to limit that kind of magical lore acquisition if they're starting to get a bit bogged down with it.



Of the PrCs that grant spellcasting to non-casters, other than ur-priest anyway, do any of them seem appropriate to this sort of idea? Suel Arcanamach seems like it is somewhat inline with it at least fluff-wise and could be tweaked to match up with only a few steps of houseruling. Does that seem about right?