Brainstorming for a Tier 2 Melee

[Moose Man]

NeoSeraphi recently made an effort to make a Tier 2 here, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11102860) but gave up. What would be needed to make a powerful, but balanced melee for tier two?

[FMArthur]

Some unbalanced abilities are pretty much required for a tier 2. :smallwink:

[Curious]

I am currently working on creating a high-tier 3, maaaaybe tier 2 fighter here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203669
It's still quite under construction, though, so there isn't much there, and it's subject to revision.

[Urpriest]

My understanding is that Frank&K material is generally balanced around Tier 2, including their melee. That said, I echo earlier comments that the whole point of Tier 2 is that it's not balanced.

[HalfDragonCube]

Try looking in the 'A Wizard could do worse' thread. :smalltongue:

It has some stuff which might make good bonus feats.

[FMArthur]

The number one thing that a melee would need to be able to compete with tier 2s is positioning. It costs your average full-caster nothing at all to be in the optimal position required to deliver its powerful features. So the T2 melee would need to pay similarly little for it; I'm talking like, free action movement. No standard/move teleports, maybe not even swift actions. Free. The other aspect of positioning that normal melee has an extraordinary difficulty making up for is vertical positioning, or flight.

Something like free action, omnidirectional movement up to your move speed, and the ability to not fall immediately after teleporting into the air, would cover positioning very well. It could be based on a skill check, like Jump or Tumble, or just a new skill entirely. I'm picturing something like the Sudden Leap maneuver used at-will, with automatic running-jumps and with vertical distances matching the horizontal ones. It could easily be a Nightcrawler-esque rapid-teleport as well.

[Big Fau]

The number one thing that a melee would need to be able to compete with tier 2s is positioning. It costs your average full-caster nothing at all to be in the optimal position required to deliver its powerful features. So the T2 melee would need to pay similarly little for it; I'm talking like, free action movement. No standard/move teleports, maybe not even swift actions. Free. The other aspect of positioning that normal melee has an extraordinary difficulty making up for is vertical positioning, or flight.

Something like free action, omnidirectional movement up to your move speed, and the ability to not fall immediately after teleporting into the air, would cover positioning very well. It could be based on a skill check, like Jump or Tumble, or just a new skill entirely.

Another thing that Tier 2/1 characters do well is taking down large numbers of opponents from a distance, and keeping them down for multiple rounds (or just ending them outright).

[HalfDragonCube]

Maybe something that freezes air so they can stand on it.

The logic is unindeniable!

[Curious]

The number one thing that a melee would need to be able to compete with tier 2s is positioning. It costs your average full-caster nothing at all to be in the optimal position required to deliver its powerful features. So the T2 melee would need to pay similarly little for it; I'm talking like, free action movement. No standard/move teleports, maybe not even swift actions. Free. The other aspect of positioning that normal melee has an extraordinary difficulty making up for is vertical positioning, or flight.

Something like free action, omnidirectional movement up to your move speed, and the ability to not fall immediately after teleporting into the air, would cover positioning very well. It could be based on a skill check, like Jump or Tumble, or just a new skill entirely.

That is exactly what I am trying to do. The class I'm working on has a large pool of points which he can spend in a variety of ways, and one of those is to move five feet as a free action per point spent. I'm also going to have an ability allowing them to leap any distance into the air to attack enemies, but I haven't quite decided how it's going to work.

[HalfDragonCube]

That is exactly what I am trying to do. The class I'm working on has a large pool of points which he can spend in a variety of ways, and one of those is to move five feet as a free action per point spent. I'm also going to have an ability allowing them to leap any distance into the air to attack enemies, but I haven't quite decided how it's going to work.

Point-based awesomeness, eh? :smallamused:

Stuff like +1d6 points of damage to a single attack and making an enemy flat-footed until the beginning of their next turn?

*Succeeds on will save against 'for 100 points you get falcon punch'.*

[Moose Man]

Would the Chain spell mechanic work? as in the wind from your sword arcs to secondary targets, dealing damage?

[Curious]

Point-based awesomeness, eh? :smallamused:

Stuff like +1d6 points of damage to a single attack and making an enemy flat-footed until the beginning of their next turn?

*Succeeds on will save against 'for 100 points you get falcon punch'.*

Congratulations. I must now introduce an ability allowing unnarmed fighters to send their enemies flying with a single flaming blow. I hope you're happy.:smalltongue:

Actually, I think there will be an ability to allow for a wide-area swipe, for clearing out those pesky mooks.

[HalfDragonCube]

Congratulations. I must now introduce an ability allowing unnarmed fighters to send their enemies flying collapse the universe with a single flaming blow. I hope you're happy.:smalltongue:

Actually, I think there will be an ability to allow for a wide-area swipe, for clearing out those pesky mooks.

FTFY.

Hmmm... Wide area swipes are in the War Hulk PrC. Just copy that.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Congratulations. I must now introduce an ability allowing unnarmed fighters to send their enemies flying with a single flaming blow. I hope you're happy.:smalltongue:

It's a special technique that has a prerequisite of one of the throw maneuvers from setting sun and burning blade or searing blade from desert wind. :smalltongue:

Also, Curious, that link you put on your first post in the thread doesn't work.

[Maho-Tsukai]

This all sounds great so far, though if your making a point based system why not make a "ki-based fighter" type of thing like you would find in DBZ. Ki/chakra/whatever you will call it lends itself well to a point system and we've seen DBZ fighters, Naruto Ninja and countless other ki/chakra wielders us very "caster-y" abilities, including teleportation, fight and even inter-planar travel to solve positioning issues. You could also use ki-blasts for your "mass sweeps." I am already starting to like this idea despite the similarity to DBZ. Most likely the class would not use armor and could be built to be either an unarmed DBZ type fighter or a armed "super-samurai" type character vaugely reminiscent of Bleach's Soul Reapers. I do realize that this idea SCREAMS anime but hey, anime showed us melee can do what casters can while not being a squishy guy in a bathrobe so why not embrace that and run with it?

[Curious]

FTFY.

Hmmm... Wide area swipes are in the War Hulk PrC. Just copy that.

I stand corrected. "BLACK-HOLE PUUUUUUUNCH!" :smallbiggrin:

Ah, thank you, that is quite handy.

Actually, do you have any other ideas for some zany shenanigans? So far the things I've come up with for powerful melee abilities is rather short. Basically all I've got are FALCON PUNCH, flight, and the sweeping attack. What would be some other solid positioning/combat/whatever abilities for a 'mundane' character?

Edit: Tried fixing it, but that didn't work either. :smallconfused: Give me a minute.

[Hirax]

Give them thunderous throw and lightning ricochet (Bloodstorm Blade, ToB). That goes a long way toward eliminating positioning issues.

[Maho-Tsukai]

As I said above, the best place to look is shonen anime. DBZ alone fixes the positioning with ki-based/martial arts-based flight and instant teleportation. DBZ also has the infamous Ki-blasts, which would be right at home with the Ki flight and teleportation. Ranma 1/2 had a ki-attack that could shatter weapons which could easily become a "shatter" type effect that could not only break weapons but also destroy stuff like shoes on horses or an enemy cleric's holy symbol. Of course you also have more "superman" type options which include your typical massive strength feats, such as lifting/throwing MASSIVE things. Going back to shonen, Naruto and DBZ both have special "fighting modes/forms" that act as super-buffs. The most famous has to be Super Sayian, but there is also the Kaio Kan(however you spell that), Naruto's "Sage Mode," Lee and Gai's Gates ect... This kind of thing could translate into a ki ability that gives your character some ridiculous physical buffs for a brief period.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Maho-Tsukai, Naruto's just a caster in orange clothes.

What we need to make a martial class tier 2 is to look at the martial gods. Like Thor, who drank so much he lowered the sea level, and later beat a gigantic sea serpent with his hammer.

[Curious]

Alright, the link works now, sorry for the delay.

Thunderous Throw and Lightning Ricochet eh? I'll check out ToB again and see how those are, thanks for the suggestion.

Now, as for the whole 'shonen hero' thing- I don't think it's such a bad idea, actually. However, I'm trying to allow for dozens if not hundreds of different ideas and archetypes to be represented in this class, not just the screaming-martial-artist type. Some of their abilities will definitely be adopted though, including perhaps ki attacks.


What we need to make a martial class tier 2 is to look at the martial gods. Like Thor, who drank so much he lowered the sea level, and later beat a gigantic sea serpent with his hammer.

Actually, this is a pretty accurate summation of my feelings on the matter. I hope to represent the heroes of legend, who could achieve truly stupendous feats using nothing but guts and sheer willpower, with perhaps a bit of aid from a magic sword.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True on Naruto...but I'd be hard pressed to call Goku or most of the Z fighters mages and the same goes for Ranma and a bunch of other shonen martial artists.

But anyway, yeah. I do agree that for a more traditional D&D feel using gods instead of Shonen martial artists as a model would be better. It's just that I am partial to anime. Perhaps that's why I thought ToB was pretty cool. :smallcool:

[Amphetryon]

The Penny Dreadfuls' Warmarked was pegged at about Tier 2.

[Godskook]

1.Try my feats in the [Ascendent] homebrew in my sig.

2.Iirc, ToS created a tier 1-2 type base class that was highly melee oriented, but I forget what it was.

[Endarire]

If anyone could full attack as a standard action, would this allow non-casters to be tier 2?


If initiators could also use a standard action strike maneuver instead of an attack, could that be tier 2? (For example, if you get 3 attacks on a full attack, you could instead use 3 readied strikes.)

If everyone also got iteratives at +0/-5/-5/-5 instead of +0/-5/-10/-15, how would that affect things?

[Hiro Protagonest]

If anyone could full attack as a standard action, would this allow non-casters to be tier 2?


If initiators could also use a standard action strike maneuver instead of an attack, could that be tier 2? (For example, if you get 3 attacks on a full attack, you could instead use 3 readied strikes.)

If everyone also got iteratives at +0/-5/-5/-5 instead of +0/-5/-10/-15, how would that affect things?

Are you kidding? The wizard just casts fly while you're still on the other side of that wall of force. Seriously, there needs to be a way for these guys to fly and pierce magic.

Besides, there's already a thread dedicated to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202779).

[Ernir]

I have a Fighter fix I was trying to pump up to tier 2, but I doubt I succeeded. It's in my sig.


If anyone could full attack as a standard action, would this allow non-casters to be tier 2?


If initiators could also use a standard action strike maneuver instead of an attack, could that be tier 2? (For example, if you get 3 attacks on a full attack, you could instead use 3 readied strikes.)

If everyone also got iteratives at +0/-5/-5/-5 instead of +0/-5/-10/-15, how would that affect things?

Those are numbers. Versatility is still missing. So yeah, you probably just smashed balance within your own tier, whoopdiedo. :smallconfused:

there's already a thread dedicated to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202779).
And here's an older one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149854)

[Urpriest]

If anyone could full attack as a standard action, would this allow non-casters to be tier 2?


If initiators could also use a standard action strike maneuver instead of an attack, could that be tier 2? (For example, if you get 3 attacks on a full attack, you could instead use 3 readied strikes.)

If everyone also got iteratives at +0/-5/-5/-5 instead of +0/-5/-10/-15, how would that affect things?

Increasing damage does not a Tier 2 make.

My contribution: an extended Iron Heart surge. Not the sun-ending monstrosity that it can be when properly misinterpreted, but still a liberal application of the concept of conditions. Specifically, the ability to declare a certain class of situations as illusory, and then save against them. Because generally when a martial hero is put into an unwinnable situation they realize it's an illusion and wake up to a more winnable reality. This could be a high level, wish-esque ability, perhaps based off of Time Regression.

[AnonymousD&Der]

Increasing damage does not a Tier 2 make.

I was going to post something, but this remark strikes me as odd. Unless I'm missing something (which I probably am), it says on the tier system that Tier 2s are often less flexible than tier 3s. But Tier 2s are stronger, so that helps them. Not trying to change the thread with this. I just find that comment odd.

Actually, the comment changed how I was thinking about this. I was just going to try to describe Dragon Ball Z, noting myself in agreement with earlier poster Maho, since you can't get much more God Tier than Monkey People who regularly punch out and energy beam eldrich abominations that could piss on the resident gods of the series. And while Goku and his friends could certainly pass for Tier 1-2 physical classes, maybe that's not the best way to think about this. A bit lazy in my slightly updated opinion.

We're shooting for Tier 2. If we hit Tier 1, is that bad? But we are shooting for at least Tier 2. Personally, I'd try to be willing to aim for Tier 1, and see where the result lands. Admitedly, this is due to my inexperience of the favored soul, binder, and psion, and the greater experience of the Wizard, Druid, and Cleric. But, I digress. W, D, C, and S (let's be honest, even if he's tier 2, the Sorceror is still God Realm. Just lesser God Realm) all laugh at the Fighter. What would the fighter need to do to be able to stand on equal footing with them? Well, I don't really think I wanna go with Fighter, because Fighter brings up images of Sword Guy, and if we get upset that the result isn't like Sword Guy, but just a Mage with a Sword, then it won't feel like it works, even if it works. Admitedly, I might be thinking about it too much, but meh.

So let's take a Commoner. The Wizard, Druid, Cleric, and Sorceror laugh because he's basically a Cow to them. Then, some how, the Commoner is given the power to stand on even footing with all of them (although not all of them at once, goodness no). How would he do this without being one of them? How do you change the world without using Magic? Is this even a possibility in this world, born from mystics and fairies? And is it okay for any alien material to basically be indistinguishable from magic in terms of effects? If not, then how different may it be? And how would one distinguish from the two?

Edit: Too Long, Didn't Read: I'm not sure if simply upgrading the fighter with a bunch of different features would be enough to really be able to balance itself with the other God Classes. Is the capacity to kill anyone that looks at you enough to be within the Top Tier? And if not, how would you push it further without being seen as a copy of another class?

Versatility is what lets the Gods be Gods, capable of unmaking and remaking creation as they see fit. Otherwise, they'd just be Demons.

[Amphetryon]

You need more than the ability to do buckets of damage to be able to accurately claim "the capacity to kill anybody that looks at you." That's one reason Tier 2 and Tier 1 are that high. They can ignore most attacks they can predict, and can deal with situations in more ways than just hitting something in the face until it dies. Sorcerer and the other Tier 2s are more limited in their capacity to do this than the Tier 1s, either due to their casting mechanism, their spell/manifester list, or some combination thereof. Specifically, they can usually handle almost any situation, but it's harder for a Tier 2 to adapt on the fly when the situations become unpredictable. A Wizard's Spellbook - as an example - is a larger resource to draw upon than the Sorcerer's innate casting powers (barring extreme cheddar for the Sorcerer that the Wizard is somehow denied).

[Safety Sword]

... properly misinterpreted...

I don't know why, but this amused me. :smallamused:

[Urpriest]

I was going to post something, but this remark strikes me as odd. Unless I'm missing something (which I probably am), it says on the tier system that Tier 2s are often less flexible than tier 3s. But Tier 2s are stronger, so that helps them. Not trying to change the thread with this. I just find that comment odd.


It's a bit hard to explain. Tier 2s are indeed not especially flexible, and are defined primarily by being powerful. But the power of a Tier 2 is qualitative, not quantitative. It's not so much "I excel as X" as "I never have to worry about challenges involving X again". So dealing a lot of damage can still leave a class Tier 4. Damage like that of the Hulking Hurler is consistent with Tier 4. Tier 2 would mean not needing to care about damage in the first place.

[AnonymousD&Der]

You need more than the ability to do buckets of damage to be able to accurately claim "the capacity to kill anybody that looks at you."

Three things about this. First, and feel free to back hand me for being paranoid and/or stupid, but asuming you were responding to me, I don't actually remember saying that you need buckets of damage to kill someone, baring maybe my initial thoughts towards Urpriest.

Second, and maybe it's my inexperience still, possibly with a bit of misreading, but I'm still pretty sure that God Tier characters are still that high because they can remove from existance entire families of people that attempt to claim they aren't that good. It doesn't have to be through outright raw damage, but still, Familicide is an average ability for them. No matter what they do, the rest of us are screwed.

And third, and this comment is completely ignoreable, as well as silly, but wasn't there a thread dedicated to being able to use No Save Just Die effects to slaughter people? Pretty sure they -could- dump buckets of damage onto the world without anyone saying otherwise. Then again, I still want to know what the Locate City Bomb is. I think I read about it once, but I forgot. XD


That's one reason Tier 2 and Tier 1 are that high. They can ignore most attacks they can predict, and can deal with situations in more ways than just hitting something in the face until it dies.

What might you be saying here, if you don't mind me asking? The last part, specifically, is what I'm focused on. A pessimistic part of me believes this entire endeavor to be useless. Melee Combat is just a way to do damage, and while the core of D&D is all about finding ways to make the people you dislike not being a problem (and damage is the most straight forward way to do this), the upper tiers have far more ways than the Melee Combatant to achieve this result. Not to mention the fact that they have ways to do it the way a Melee Combatant can, if not better. And that Ultimately, an Upper Tier Melee character stops being a Melee Character and starts being an Upper Tier character who's kind enough to appear infront of you before breaking the thought of you out of existance, or at least slaughtering you.


Sorcerer and the other Tier 2s are more limited in their capacity to do this than the Tier 1s, either due to their casting mechanism, their spell/manifester list, or some combination thereof. Specifically, they can usually handle almost any situation, but it's harder for a Tier 2 to adapt on the fly when the situations become unpredictable. A Wizard's Spellbook - as an example - is a larger resource to draw upon than the Sorcerer's innate casting powers (barring extreme cheddar for the Sorcerer that the Wizard is somehow denied).

.... you know, this is an excellent explination. There someone in one of my groups that doesn't understand the difference between a Wizard and a Sorceror in terms of Power, why the Wizard is suppost to be above it. I'ma copy this and present it to him.


It's a bit hard to explain. Tier 2s are indeed not especially flexible, and are defined primarily by being powerful. But the power of a Tier 2 is qualitative, not quantitative. It's not so much "I excel as X" as "I never have to worry about challenges involving X again". So dealing a lot of damage can still leave a class Tier 4. Damage like that of the Hulking Hurler is consistent with Tier 4. Tier 2 would mean not needing to care about damage in the first place.

Eventually, being tier 1-2 means that the basic Dungeon Crawling I'ma-make-me-a-party-and-beat-up-a-big-bad-guy becomes, well, beneath you... is what I'm getting from this. Am I wrong in this assumption?

Edit: The second set of Amphetryon's post that I quoted made me start thinking (dear lord, why have I been doing so much darn thinking?).

First, a bit of filler. Because everyone likes filler. D&D is a bit like the real world, except without the moral dilema (HA!). We live to have our own lives, and to slaughter everyone that disagrees with us. We've spent quite a bit of time perfecting how to do this. You got people that try to, but can barely kill one person (although killing isn't quite the same in our universe). You've got weapons like guns and stuff to make it easier to kill groups of people. You've got your armies and such. And then you've got Nuclear Weapons, and other technologies that render -EVERYTHING- else completely inconsequential. Like the Large Hadron Collider (baddum tish). And Wizards are essentially LHCs. The world is ultimately screwed, and the little things, like mass destruction, don't all that much matter.

And now, something that may actually merit a responce. What do Wizards have that trivialises the rest of the world? At what point in ability do the top tiers go from being borderline defenseless little nerds with books / foreign symbols / pets / emo music, to being Gods? What abilities do they ultimately have that "makes it so they never have to worry about X" (if I may so paraphrase)? What are the top 10 things that the Gods have that a Mortal would need to be able to do to even begin to match them, basically?

[Amphetryon]

There are lots of ways to overcome challenges in D&D that don't involve removing the enemy's HP total directly, and lots of challenges that don't involve doing HP damage at all. All that most combat monkeys do when hitting someone in the face is remove HP, and many of the most prolific damage dealers among the combat monkeys struggle with any other kinds of encounters. That's part of what I'm talking about with more than just the ability to do damage is needed to get above Tier 4.

[AnonymousD&Der]

There are lots of ways to overcome challenges in D&D that don't involve removing the enemy's HP total directly, and lots of challenges that don't involve doing HP damage at all. All that most combat monkeys do when hitting someone in the face is remove HP, and many of the most prolific damage dealers among the combat monkeys struggle with any other kinds of encounters. That's part of what I'm talking about with more than just the ability to do damage is needed to get above Tier 4.

Do you care if I make another thread dedicated to this? I don't want to derail this thread, because it'd be interesting to see what result is gained, what would be a melee character with the skills to be a God, but at the same time, you've got me curious.

[marcielle]

At what point does a meelee become a caster?
If a meelee flies, stops time, summons creatures or even alter others perception of them to the point they are no longer a threat he is merely a caster that can also hit things.

The point of tier 1 is he can do pretty much anything.
The point of a meelee is that he does 1 thing: kill.

Tier 2 is just tier 1 with half the options. And by this line of logic it is literally impossible to make a tier 2 meelee unless you also give it casting.
If you wanna just close the power gap all you need to do is nerf casters.
Making a meelee a tier 2 would involve giving them so many abilities you might as well give them a spell list.

If you are serious about this ToB literally tells you how to do this.
You can make up your own maneuvers for martial classes with a week of meditation and a (HIGH) martial lore check.
All you then need to do is create strikes and stances that mimic spell abilities.
INSTANT tier 2 meelee if your DM does not call cheese since it is never specified what a strike can or can't do.
Actually, there might be limits but I don't have the book on me at the moment to check.

Let's take a look at a simple spell effect that can normally never be replicated by a meelee.
Let's say glitterdust. All you need to do is be creative.
Make a strike where you flash your sword at precise angles to deflect sunlight or other bright light sources into your opponents eyes.

Cheesy but then again is wizards can call angels to do their biding by waving and shouting so I don't see why you really shouldn't be allowed slightly nerfed versions of any spell you are creative enough to incorporate.

Another example: Hero's Call - Your devout championing of a cause allows you to request aid from a creature as the gate spell so long as it is the same alignment as you and you have been an examplar of your alignment
(Lawful good- act like a paladin, Chaotic evil - Murder orphans and dance in pools of their blood)