Extraordinary Challenge

[hivedragon]

I would like you to build a 3.5e Level 20 gestalt character that is as optimized as possible while gaining no spells, magic or supernatural abilities of any kind. Also Tome of Battle is banned because it would make things too easy.

[Yuki Akuma]

No spells, magic or supernatural abilities of any kind?

That... that leaves us with about five classes.

[iDesu]

Commoner 20 // Expert 20
At level 1 take the Chicken infested flaw. After that abuse handle animal to form a massive chicken army, at the appropriate level take leadership. Use your massive chicken army to help take over the world and all your followers to help cook dinner and win others over to your side at the same time. Well, it's not the most optimized build, but at least you'll never have to worry about going hungry.

[hivedragon]

No spells, magic or supernatural abilities of any kind?

That... that leaves us with about five classes.

I didn't ban PrCs. Also bonus points for differentiation, however the points aren't worth anything. :smallwink:

[Arundel]

No spells, magic or supernatural abilities of any kind?

That... that leaves us with about five classes.

Tier 1:
None

Tier 2:
None

Tier 3:
None

Tier 4:
Rogue, Barbarian, Scout, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5:
Examples: Fighter, Swashbuckler, Expert, OA Samurai,

Tier 6:
Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

List isn't complete buts its what I had off the top of my head.

Edit1: TOB out.
Edit2: Scout clear, ninjas out.

[ragingrage]

Tier 3:
Crusader, Swordsage, Factotum,


ToB is banned, in the OP.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Tier 1:
None

Tier 2:
None

Tier 3:
Crusader, Swordsage, Factotum,

Tier 4:
Rogue, Barbarian, Scout, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5:
Examples: Fighter, CA Ninja, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Expert, OA Samurai,

Tier 6:
Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

List isn't complete buts its what I had off the top of my head.

He banned ToB for no apparent reason, because factotum and all the barbarian ACFs are still lying around.

[hivedragon]

Also you can take a 3 level dip in monk and ranger.

[Arundel]

ToB is banned, in the OP.

He banned ToB for no apparent reason, because factotum and all the barbarian ACFs are still lying around.

Updated, thanks for catching it.

Still looking up features on some of the others still on the list.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Updated, thanks for catching it.

Still looking up features on some of the others still on the list.

Factotum isn't ToB. :smallconfused:

[Arundel]

Factotum isn't ToB. :smallconfused:

Upon review (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0), they do not meet that requirements of OP.

[Big Fau]

CC Spell-less Ranger 20//Scout 20. You have every ability you need to survive if you focus on ranged combat, and are completely Ex.

Alternatively, Rogue 20//Swashbuckler 20.

[Urpriest]

If homebrew was allowed I'd probably push for one of Olsecamo's monster classes. As-is...

What kind of LA/RHD rules are you using? I'm strongly tempted to have a big Feral Lycanthrope on one side of the gestalt.

Edit: Ofc Lycanthropes have Su abilities. Maybe a well-chosen giant. Or just something that happens to not advance by character class.

[Zonugal]

How about something akin to this?

Spirit Lion & Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Dungeoncrashin' Zhentarim Fighter 10/Avenging Executioner 5/Exotic Weapon Master 3//Rogue 20

[Urpriest]

How about something akin to this?

Spirit Lion & Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Dungeoncrashin' Zhentarim Fighter 10/Avenging Executioner 5/Exotic Weapon Master 3//Rogue 20

Hmm...perhaps some Takahishi No Onisan functionality would be appropriate? Fitting in ten levels of Samurai might be a wee bit annoying, but the ability to use Imperious Command in an area at-will is a pretty good one.

[Shadowknight12]

Flesh Golem 9/Barbarian (Lion Totem variant) 11//Scout 20.

or

Gargantuan Animated Object 16/Fighter 4//Ranger 3/Barbarian 17 (or some other build).

Basically, you want to become a construct or undead. Deathless will do on a pinch. You're pretty much screwed otherwise.

EDIT: Outside core, WARFORGED. Or Necropolitan.

EDIT 2: The mimic is an aberration (blech), but it has all (Ex) abilities. Worth looking at.

[Zonugal]

Hmm...perhaps some Takahishi No Onisan functionality would be appropriate? Fitting in ten levels of Samurai might be a wee bit annoying, but the ability to use Imperious Command in an area at-will is a pretty good one.

Hmm I have no familiarity with Takahishi No Onisan but I think I can revise my build a little bit more...

Male Goliath Spirit Lion & Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Dungeoncrashin' Zhentarim Fighter 10/Avenging Executioner 5/Exotic Weapon Master 3//Rogue 19

If you want to continue to go wild throw on either the Saint or Spell-Touched template.

[hivedragon]

You can build using monster HD and LA for half the gestalt, however I am not really interested in such builds. I want nothing homebrewed. I would also like people to list all feats they would take.

[Urpriest]

Barbarian (Lion Totem variant) 11/Flesh Golem 9//Scout 20.

or

Gargantuan Animated Object 16/Fighter 4//Ranger 3/Barbarian 17 (or some other build).

Basically, you want to become a construct or undead. Deathless will do on a pinch. You're pretty much screwed otherwise.

EDIT: Outside core, WARFORGED. Or Necropolitan.

EDIT 2: The mimic is an aberration (blech), but it has all (Ex) abilities. Worth looking at.

How are you getting an animated object character? Or taking Flesh Golem levels after first?

[Shadowknight12]

How are you getting an animated object character? Or taking Flesh Golem levels after first?

Sigh. Put barbarian after flesh golem.

How am I getting an animated object character? With Awaken Construct.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

See Takahashi no Onisan in my sig.

No (Su), (Sp), or spells at all. He just forces a DC (good luck) check or be locked down within 30' of him. Unless you're immune to Fear, in which case, you ignore him.

EDIT: Wait, gestalt? Fine, do both. Fighter up one side to level 10, getting both Dungeoncrasher AND Zentarum (misspelled certainly) variants, then CW Samurai on the other side until after level, then go Ronin10 on that side.

So you'd be looking at:

Samurai14/Ronin6//Rogue1/Fighter10/Exemplar (intimidate)1/(probably more Rogue to finish off for more skills and sneak attack)

[hivedragon]

"Zhentarim Fighter" source please

[ShneekeyTheLost]

"Zhentarim Fighter" source please

You're the one who corrected my misspelling, and yet you still ask to cite source? Heh, cute.

Zhentarim Soldier ACF from Champions of Valor Web Enhancement, downloadable here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)

[hivedragon]

You're the one who corrected my misspelling, and yet you still ask to cite source? Heh, cute.

Zhentarim Soldier ACF from Champions of Valor Web Enhancement, downloadable here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)

Actually I was responding to Zonugal, thanx anyways though.

[Urpriest]

Sigh. Put barbarian after flesh golem.

How am I getting an animated object character? With Awaken Construct.

That spell doesn't change it's LA, IIRC.

[Zonugal]

Actually I was responding to Zonugal, thanx anyways though.

Ahaha!

Yes, please go check it out because it is simply amazing. You should check out avenging executioner and if the build at large works for you we can begin looking at a suitable feat line-up.

[Flickerdart]

You didn't say no items. :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, this looks like a job for Ubercharger. Several hundred damage per swing. Have fun with that.

[Curmudgeon]

I would like you to build a 3.5e Level 20 gestalt character that is as optimized as possible while gaining no spells, magic or supernatural abilities of any kind.
"As optimized as possible" for what role(s) exactly? Scouting? Setting traps? Breaking and entering? Ranged combat? Dungeon exploration? Assassination? If you've got enough access to enough magic in D&D you can handle many tasks, but without magic you're facing significant limitations.

A Ranger 17/Scout 3, with the Champion of the Wild ACF (from Complete Champion; trades spellcasting for more feats) and Swift Hunter and Ranged Skirmisher (Dragon # 346, page 87; increases skirmish range to 60') feats will be a pretty good ranged combatant; that's one possible side of the gestalt if ranged combat is a role you want to optimize for. But gestalt characters are generally feat-starved, so there's a limit to how many roles you can optimize for.

Please tell us what you're hoping to accomplish with this character.

[Eldariel]

Uh? Fighter (Crasher/Zhent obv)/Hulking Hurler/War Hulk on one side, LA/HD/Barbarian on the other. If no LA/HD allowed, just skip that, Stonebless/Barb into Mountain Rage and profit. Congrats, you got yourself tier 2 level power far as breaking the planet, jumping and stuff like that goes. You can deal infiniteish damage at arbitrary range, lift/throw/break anything and you're damn scary. But yeah, the big selling point, far as being stupid is, is being able to break the planet.

EDIT: And no, you can't really break the planet since we lack access to truly pump the size category as a multiplier and even our Strength is limited in the 60s-70s. We can do big numbers tho. So if you want most TO mundane, you got it.

[Shadowknight12]

That spell doesn't change it's LA, IIRC.

Precisely! If an Awakened Animal can be played, so can an Awakened Construct. Up to the DM to puzzle out the LA.

[hivedragon]

"As optimized as possible" for what role(s) exactly? Scouting? Setting traps? Breaking and entering? Ranged combat? Dungeon exploration? Assassination? If you've got enough access to enough magic in D&D you can handle many tasks, but without magic you're facing significant limitations.

There isn't a wrong way of doing it, I'm just interested in how useful you can build a character without magic. As I said before bonus points for uniqueness.

[Doc Roc]

There isn't a wrong way of doing it, I'm just interested in how useful you can build a character without magic. As I said before bonus points for uniqueness.

You can do:
Intimidate
Hurler
Charger
UMD

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ubercharger/Dungeoncrasher/Intimidator is about the best you're going to get, mundanely. The game isn't set up for 'mundane'. If you're wanting 'mundane', look at a different system. Call of Cthulu, for example, has the death rates you're probably wanting.


You can do:
Intimidate
Hurler
Charger in one build. Easy enough. You've got enough spare feats going for Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim Soldier

UMD

That would fall under the no magic rules.

Judging from his other thread, he's probably wanting to run a game in an AMF.

[Urpriest]

Precisely! If an Awakened Animal can be played, so can an Awakened Construct. Up to the DM to puzzle out the LA.

Awakened Animals can't be played. Awakening Animals also doesn't change their LA.

I'm not going to continue this argument past this post in order to avoid derailing, but let's have one last exchange: what in your view is the difference between LA - and LA +0?

[Shadowknight12]

Awakened Animals can't be played. Awakening Animals also doesn't change their LA.

I'm not going to continue this argument past this post in order to avoid derailing, but let's have one last exchange: what in your view is the difference between LA - and LA +0?

Uh, I'm pretty sure I've seen threads around the internet that go more or less "I (or a player of mine) want to play an Awakened Animal, help me come up with the LA" or "Help, a player cast Awaken Animal on his pet and transferred his soul to it! What's a DM to do?" or similar cases. Awakened Animals can, indeed, be played, they just require some work between the player and the DM to be viable (just like playing a fighter in a party with a batman wizard and a CoDzilla requires work between the player and the DM to be viable). In fact, any creature can be played. There's an entire thread dedicated to allowing just that (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.0).

LA - means that the designers didn't intend you to play the creature in question. That is of little relevance, considering the designers didn't intend for the wizard or the cleric to render most other classes useless. Yet it happens. Designers are human, they make mistakes. They also have beliefs that are not universally accepted and "things they intended" (or did not intend) are not, in fact, meant to be taken as Divine Law.

But you may disagree. That's quite all right, we all play in the way that maximises our fun.

Furthermore, the OP stated he's not into that sort of build, so the point is, in fact, moot. Sadly.

[Urpriest]

Hey, I just figured out what this needs: Beast Heart Adept. All of its abilities are Ex, and it gets access to a whole lot of versatility. Plus, in gestalt, it can do something else too.

[Doc Roc]

Hey, I just figured out what this needs: Beast Heart Adept. All of its abilities are Ex, and it gets access to a whole lot of versatility. Plus, in gestalt, it can do something else too.

Oh man! Great idea!

[Urpriest]

Oh man! Great idea!

Also, Pokemaster is totally the most classic of martial archetypes.