Perfect Gestalt characters?

[maximus25]

My friend is running a gestalt game. I need awesome ideas for a gestalt character that is awesome and perfect. I will pretty much play any character concept ever.

I was thinking Fighter//Rogue to start, with the fighter sneak attack variant. Great BAB, 2 good saves, d10 hit die, sneak attack through the stratosphere.

We can really use any 3.5 book. And I have them all.

So what is a great gestalt combo?

[Quietus]

Sneak attack doesn't stack like that, you take the better progression from one side I believe. Generally with Gestalt, you want one side that'll be more active, using actions for most of its class features, and one side that is more passive, giving bonuses and/or defensive options. One I see touted sometimes is a Wis-caster/Monk setup; A Druid//Monk could go kung-fu panda, pump Wisdom and Con, and use Wildshape to handle the requisite Strength and Dex scores. Plus they'd have all the other goodness of being a Druid, alongside a heavily boosted AC via wisdom and crazy speeds.

[Cog]

...sneak attack through the stratosphere.
Gestalt does not work that way. You follow the best progression - which is an additional 1d6 of Sneak Attack every two levels.

As for what is effective... lots. Gestalt very nearly takes the classes available to start with and squares it. Of course, you've squared the ineffective stuff too...

[Hirax]

Wizard, artificer (psionic or regular), factotum, and archivist. Pick any 2 of those.

[maximus25]

I didn't know sneak attack doesn't stack like that, that sucks. Oh well, something else I guess then.

[Hirax]

I didn't know sneak attack doesn't stack like that, that sucks. Oh well, something else I guess then.

If you really want to throttle up your sneak attack damage, you could do rogue entirely one side (or any other sneak attack class), then do assassin on the other at levels 6-15. Assassin sneak attacks explicitly add to and stack with rogue sneak attacks.

[Hiro Protagonest]

kung-fu panda

Only if he took the pathetic flaw twice and the stocky trait. :smalltongue:

[maximus25]

If you really want to throttle up your sneak attack damage, you could do rogue entirely one side (or any other sneak attack class), then do assassin on the other at levels 6-15. Assassin sneak attacks explicitly add to and stack with rogue sneak attacks.

Yeah I could, and take those first 5 levels of fighter anyway because I get bonus feats and increased BAB, better saves, and d10 hit die. I will choose greatsword for the awesome sneak attack synergy, then when they turn on me I'm still a formidable opponent.


I have played the Monk//Druid gestalt where my DM allowed flurry to stack with wildshaping, so I'm basically unstoppable because I rape everything and my wolverine also destroys face.

[Hirax]

Hm, after checking assassin's stance in ToB, it would be another way to add to your sneak attack damage if you're not interested in the spellcasting approach I offered in my first post. If you did rogue15 on one side, then swordsage5/assassin10 on the other, that would get you your desired double sneak attack progression. More info on being an assassin here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197409), in particular check out the feats to increase death attack DC. Or even if not used with a death attack, there are some good ambush feats that make your sneak attacks give penalties to enemies in Drow of the Underdark and Complete Scoundrel.

[Arundel]

Somewhere on these forums years ago there was a Gestalt build called the Omnimancer. I want to say it could caster every major and most minor forms of magic and psionics at max level. It had at least 5 spell pools.

I would call that as perfect as it gets.

[maximus25]

Can you explain the magic classes in your first post? I understand the wizard overpoweredness, but anything else you can tell me about it?

[HunterOfJello]

a Factotum//Binder can pretty much do anything and everything in the game. I would have a blast playing a character like that, but I would be the only person in my group who could follow the actions of the character. If you're going for a non-spellcaster, then that may be the most versatile combo.

If you'd like to have a caster class on one side then you're going back into the previously mentioned 'Pick 2' option.

[Hirax]

Factotums aren't a magic based class per se, they're just an intelligence based class that add their int mod to just about everything useful. Initiative checks, skill checks, attack rolls, AC, saving throws, and more. They can get extra standard actions in a turn as a class feature. They have all skills as class skills. They can also cast a small number of arcane spells. They're in Dungeonscape, check them out. They synergize well with any build that already has a high intelligence, IE wizards.

Archivists are simply an int. based full divine caster from Heroes of Horror. Archivists prepare spells from a prayerbook, which works just like a wizard's spellbook, except archivists aren't limited to cleric spells, they can learn any divine spell at all and copy it into their prayerbook. So a wizard/archivist would only have one casting stat (int) and be able to cast pretty much every spell in the game.

Artificers are the ultimate buffer. Fighting a dragon? Imbue your weapons with dragonbane for the encounter. Fighting ghosts? Make them ghost touch weapons for the encounter. Too cheap to buy a +int magic item? Make your own, artificers are the ultimate magic item builders. If you never thought making magic items was viable, read the artificer and you'll think again. They let you make magic items without expending exp, because they get a pool of craft points, and can eventually disassemble other magic items to add more craft points to their pool. So if you take away the exp cost of magic items, it is of course cheaper to make them than buy them. Artificers are found in the Eberron Campaign Setting book, though they have no Eberron specific class features, so they would work just fine in another setting. There are also feats in this book that reduce the cost (time, exp, and GP) by 25%), and artificers can take them as bonus feats for free. Psionic artificers are simply a variant, and can be found in Magic of Eberron.

edit: artificers make for great cohorts if you're able and willing to use leadership.

[Psyren]

Another good way to increase your sneak attack in gestalt is to put Binder on the other side, and bind Andromalius. His sneak attack also explicitly stacks with all other sources, just like an assassin's death attack. In fact, Binders can get Death Attack too, by binding Marchosias (who also gives you a passive +16 competence bonus to both Hide and Move Silently.)

They don't get a lot of it (it maxes out around +5d6 pre-epic), but on top of the damage increase, you also get good Fort and Will saves (to add to your good reflex save from rogue), higher HD (d8), and a host of other powerful and useful abilities from the other vestiges that you can choose from. Some synergize particularly well with you - for instance, Otiax's air blast is a touch attack with reach that can be sneak-attacked with, and gets iteratives.

[maximus25]

Factotums aren't a magic based class per se, they're just an intelligence based class that add their int mod to just about everything useful. Initiative checks, skill checks, attack rolls, AC, saving throws, and more. They can get extra standard actions in a turn as a class feature. They have all skills as class skills. They can also cast a small number of arcane spells. They're in Dungeonscape, check them out. They synergize well with any build that already has a high intelligence, IE wizards.

Archivists are simply an int. based full divine caster from Heroes of Horror. Archivists prepare spells from a prayerbook, which works just like a wizard's spellbook, except archivists aren't limited to cleric spells, they can learn any divine spell at all and copy it into their prayerbook. So a wizard/archivist would only have one casting stat (int) and be able to cast pretty much every spell in the game.

Artificers are the ultimate buffer. Fighting a dragon? Imbue your weapons with dragonbane for the encounter. Fighting ghosts? Make them ghost touch weapons for the encounter. Too cheap to buy a +int magic item? Make your own, archivists are the ultimate magic item builders. If you never thought making magic items was viable, read the archivist and you'll think again, they let you make magic items without expending exp, because they get a pool of craft points, and can eventually disassemble other magic items to add more craft points to their pool. So if you take away the exp cost of magic items, it is of course cheaper to make them than buy them. Artificers are found in the Eberron Campaign Setting book, though they have no Eberron specific class features, so they would work just fine in another setting. Psionic artificers are simply a variant, and can be found in Magic of Eberron.

They all sound awesome. Factotum//Archivist seems suprapowerful as well.

[Hirax]

Yep, you can't go wrong with any pairing of the 4 I listed. I did make a couple edits to the artificer section about available feats for them fyi. I also nuked every instance of accidentally referring to artificers as archivists. I think.

[Gettles]

I've been getting ready for a gestalt game myself and one idea I've had is a Crusader/Dungeon crasher Fighter and I'm wondering, does that sound workable?

[The Rabbler]

I've been getting ready for a gestalt game myself and one idea I've had is a Crusader/Dungeon crasher Fighter and I'm wondering, does that sound workable?

while crusader 20 is a perfectly workable build, fighter 20 (even dungeoncrasher) doesn't work nearly as well. Also, putting the two into the same build accomplishes little, as they're both perfect BAB, strong Fort, melee brutes. I'd pick something that either minimizes the weaknesses of a crusader or fighter (or both, fighter 6/crusader 14 is fairly strong) or plays on their strength (cleric for example).

The real question though, is what are you trying to accomplish with the build? fighter 20/crusader 20 will work, but it won't be nearly as effective as a dungeoncrasher fighter 6/spirit lion totem wolf totem barbarian 2/crusader 12//cleric 3/sacred exorcist 2/church inquisitor 5/ruby knight vindicator 8/bone knight 2.

The former will be good at hitting things, while the latter will be good at hitting things, bullrushing things, tripping things, and casting spells that make it far better at all of the above.

If all you're looking for is a beatstick with some maneuvers, a lots-of-acf barbarian 20//warblade 20 would probably work out better.


EDIT: also, for the OP: the gestalt combos that are usually regarded as the most mechanically powerful are druid//unarmed swordsage, wizard//factotum, and wizard//archivist. PrC any and all of the levels of either side of any of the builds based on where you want the character to go (wizard/red mage/archmage//factotum 20 for example)

[Flickerdart]

The rule of thumb for Gestalt is that one side provides active abilities (maneuvers, spells, psionic powers) while the other provides passive abilities (Divine Grace for ludicrous saves, Factotum for extra actions).

[The Rabbler]

The rule of thumb for Gestalt is that one side provides active abilities (maneuvers, spells, psionic powers) while the other provides passive abilities (Divine Grace for ludicrous saves, Factotum for extra actions).

Or that both sides work together synergistically (I can't believe I just used that word) in the cases of wizard//archivist and druid//swordsage.

[Flickerdart]

Right, but that usually takes a lot of work and game knowledge, whereas "it's the same as class X but better now" is pretty easy to figure out.

Alternatively, you could staple a class like Warblade to a class like Wizard, so that you can let loose with all your high level spells and still be useful when they run out, but that makes you less effective at both of those things than if you had focused on one or the other.

[Philistine]

A fun gestalt skillmonkey is Warblade//(Rogue or Factotum, or even Ranger or Scout). In combat, typically the Warblade side will be active while the other is passive (Rogue's SA, or Scout/Swift Hunter skirmish, give nice little bonuses to damage when you can qualify for them); out of combat, the Skills side will be active while the Warblade is passive. This combo is far from game-breakingly powerful, but you'll pretty much always have something useful to do.

[Psyren]

The rule of thumb for Gestalt is that one side provides active abilities (maneuvers, spells, psionic powers) while the other provides passive abilities (Divine Grace for ludicrous saves, Factotum for extra actions).

Indeed, and Rogue//Binder satisfies this litmus easily - Rogue passively supplies Sneak Attack and feats, while Binder's powers provide active abilities.

[The Rabbler]

Indeed, and Rogue//Binder satisfies this litmus easily - Rogue passively supplies Sneak Attack and feats, while Binder's powers provide active abilities.

I would avoid using rogue and binder as the binder was created to be a more magical rogue. wildshape ranger and binder might provide a more useful pile of abilities.

EDIT: thought you meant beguiler. I'm up too late.

[MeeposFire]

I wouldn't call a binder a magical rogue. They are more like magical whatever you want. Having good skill points is a nice boost for a binder as are the class features and better saves.

[candycorn]

Warblade // Barbarian isn't a good combo. Too much overlap. Both are D12 HD, Both have strong fort/weak Reflex and will, both are full BAB.

You want to gain from your second class.

Now:
Factotum 20 // Warblade 5 / Chameleon 10 / Warblade +5

That's solid. You get some int synergy with Warblade, you end up with 6th level arcane and divine spells (at caster level 20, from level 15 onward), and up to 8th level maneuvers (Initiator level 15). In addition, you can use factotum for free actions, you can add int to everything (and to some things twice), and have a floating feat that you can change every day (very useful for item creation).

Best of all, the class is flexible, has a lot of skill points, has decent HP (d12 for 10 levels, d8 for 10 levels), decent saves, and can adapt to most situations.

[Psyren]

I would avoid using rogue and binder as the binder was created to be a more magical rogue.

Not exactly. While Binders can perform the skillmonkey role, doing so ties up resources they could be using for better things. For instance, Ashardalon is the Search vestige, but he comes online really late - and you still need Trapfinding from rogue to make proper use of him. Or you blow feats to shape the Theft Gloves soulmeld and open your hands chakra etc.

Besides which, Binder + Rogue can get crazy amounts of damage. In addition to the Marchosias + Andromalius combo I mentioned above (both of which stack with all other sources of SA,) you can also bind Malphas for a Ninja's Sudden Strike, which in turn also stacks with sneak attack. And Binders have all the tools they could want to deny a target their dex bonus and trigger it.


Also, another nice reason to have rogue skillpoints is that Binders have the bBg 3 knowledge skills - Arcana, Religion and Planes. They don't actually need these if they bust out some lore vestiges (e.g. The Triad) but you may not have your brain-module installed when such a check is required.

[IthroZada]

Just gonna mention that the Incarnum classes make for most excellent combinations with a number of other classes in gestalt. Also, a Warlock is pretty awesome, because they can focus on more of the utility invocations.

[The Rabbler]

Not exactly. While Binders can perform the skillmonkey role, doing so ties up resources they could be using for better things. For instance, Ashardalon is the Search vestige, but he comes online really late - and you still need Trapfinding from rogue to make proper use of him. Or you blow feats to shape the Theft Gloves soulmeld and open your hands chakra etc.

Besides which, Binder + Rogue can get crazy amounts of damage. In addition to the Marchosias + Andromalius combo I mentioned above (both of which stack with all other sources of SA,) you can also bind Malphas for a Ninja's Sudden Strike, which in turn also stacks with sneak attack. And Binders have all the tools they could want to deny a target their dex bonus and trigger it.


Also, another nice reason to have rogue skillpoints is that Binders have the bBg 3 knowledge skills - Arcana, Religion and Planes. They don't actually need these if they bust out some lore vestiges (e.g. The Triad) but you may not have your brain-module installed when such a check is required.

wow, I'm sorry, I had a huge brain fart. When you had said binder before, I read beguiler. disregard my post, rogue//binder is a great gestalt build.



Warblade // Barbarian isn't a good combo. Too much overlap. Both are D12 HD, Both have strong fort/weak Reflex and will, both are full BAB.

You want to gain from your second class.

Now:
Factotum 20 // Warblade 5 / Chameleon 10 / Warblade +5

That's solid. You get some int synergy with Warblade, you end up with 6th level arcane and divine spells (at caster level 20, from level 15 onward), and up to 8th level maneuvers (Initiator level 15). In addition, you can use factotum for free actions, you can add int to everything (and to some things twice), and have a floating feat that you can change every day (very useful for item creation).

Best of all, the class is flexible, has a lot of skill points, has decent HP (d12 for 10 levels, d8 for 10 levels), decent saves, and can adapt to most situations.

I mentioned warblade/barbarian because although there's a lot of overlap in BAB, Saves, and HD, the street fighter, spirit lion totem, whirling frenzy, and wolf totem barbarian ACFs all give plenty of passive bonuses to your average warblade. It certainly isn't an optimized build, but I posted it with the intent of posting a fairly solid yet simple build which would prove more effective than the previously mentioned fighter//crusader.

EDIT: also, never bother with chameleon except as a 2 level dip. The Factotum already gives you a couple of choice spells for when you truly need them, as a character with warblade really shouldn't focus on spellcasting beyond a couple of spells per day. There are much better ways to gish than through warblade/chameleon. A more useful build would be factotum 19/binder 1//barbarian 2 (with ACFs)/fighter 2 (dungeoncrasher)/warblade 6/eternal blade 2/chameleon 2/warblade 7-12. As soon as you hit chameleon 2 and get the floating feat, over the next 10 days you can pick up the bind soulmeld feat to grab 1 permanent soulmeld shaped to each chakra spot granting a pile of nice, passive, permanent bonuses for the cost of 10 days of downtime.

[NineThePuma]

For a beginner, I'd pick a class you're familiar with, preferably a non-rogue combat class. Maybe a Barbarian or a Monk? Perhaps a paladin. Knight? Certainly!

The other side? You slap in either Fighter (for Full BaB, D10 hd, and feats) or Bonus Feat Rogue (For medium bab, good reflex, 8+int skills, and bonus feats).

To me, Bonus Feat Rogue is almost a 'perfect companion' for a lot of classes that don't need a higher hit die or . As a matter of fact, my first Gestalt character was a Soulknife/Warlock//BF Rogue. Only the BF Rogue let the SK/WL work right. x3

[candycorn]

I mentioned warblade/barbarian because although there's a lot of overlap in BAB, Saves, and HD, the street fighter, spirit lion totem, whirling frenzy, and wolf totem barbarian ACFs all give plenty of passive bonuses to your average warblade. It certainly isn't an optimized build, but I posted it with the intent of posting a fairly solid yet simple build which would prove more effective than the previously mentioned fighter//crusader.

For most of that, you're better off going Spirit lion wolf totem barbarian 2 / Warblade 18. Whirling frenzy is of limited use, as the extra attack doesn't combine well with most maneuvers.

Doing that frees up an entire side of the gestalt, while providing most of the benefits you mentioned.

For good synergy with that, I'd look into something that provided good combat buffs... Psion, perhaps, for int synergy with warblade. Could do a lot with Psion buffs, and it'd strengthen the will save weakness.

[kestrel404]

In my mind, the 'perfect' gestalt character is one who is strongly SAD, gets full BAB, all 3 saves as good saves, and has strong choices for standard actions.

Based on Power stat, you should mix the following classes:

Int
Wizard, Beguiler, Warblade, Factotum, Duskblade, Psion/Erudite, Archivist, Psychic Rogue, Artificer

Wis
Cleric, Druid, Paladin (Serenity), Swordsage, Psychic Warrior, Ardent,

Cha
Bard, Paladin (Feats), Sorceror, Crusader, Dread Necromacer, Favored Soul, Marshal

Misc - These are classes that are nearly attribute agnostic, and may be mixed freely with others without increasind MAD.
Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Warlock

Con - Since Con is a pseudo-relavent stat for everyone, these classes can also be added to the above with relatively little impact.
Barbarian, Incarnate, Totemist

Getting perfect match-ups out of these classes is not terribly difficult, and any combo you come up with can lead to a reasonably well-built character. If you want further help once you've selected a good pairing that you'd want to play, there are lots of people here who just love to offer advice like that.

TL;DR - Choose two classes from one of the menu's above, then ask for advice.

[Amphetryon]

Binder//Totemist. :smallbiggrin:

[Essence_of_War]

How game breaking do you want to be?

Warblade//Factotum is really fun, but isn't going to distort the spacetime continuum like some of the other combos might.

[Ravens_cry]

We need to know what other people are playing before we can recommend anything in good conscience. Playing something optimized to the gunwales when everyone else is using gestalt to make quirky concepts is a great way to make things Not Fun, which is pretty much the only universally Wrong Way to play a role playing game.

[The Rabbler]

For most of that, you're better off going Spirit lion wolf totem barbarian 2 / Warblade 18. Whirling frenzy is of limited use, as the extra attack doesn't combine well with most maneuvers.

Doing that frees up an entire side of the gestalt, while providing most of the benefits you mentioned.

For good synergy with that, I'd look into something that provided good combat buffs... Psion, perhaps, for int synergy with warblade. Could do a lot with Psion buffs, and it'd strengthen the will save weakness.

the street fighter barbarian ACF is an ACF that progresses and gains power extremely well. It makes barbarian 20 perfectly viable for anyone who wants to charge. Slapping a spellcasting side onto the gestalt inherently creates a more complicated character to run and, again, I was only trying to give an example of a simple build that would maintain effectiveness across the level spectrum.

[Caliphbubba]

the street fighter barbarian ACF is an ACF that progresses and gains power extremely well. It makes barbarian 20 perfectly viable for anyone who wants to charge. Slapping a spellcasting side onto the gestalt inherently creates a more complicated character to run and, again, I was only trying to give an example of a simple build that would maintain effectiveness across the level spectrum.

out of curiosity, which book is the street fighter ACF for barbarians in?

[The Rabbler]

out of curiosity, which book is the street fighter ACF for barbarians in?

I believe it's from cityscape.

[NineThePuma]

It's not from the city scape book, it's from the Cityscape Web Enhancement.

[maximus25]

We need to know what other people are playing before we can recommend anything in good conscience. Playing something optimized to the gunwales when everyone else is using gestalt to make quirky concepts is a great way to make things Not Fun, which is pretty much the only universally Wrong Way to play a role playing game.

One guy is going artificer//warlock and he will be a warforged.

I don't know about the others, but two of the guys are heavy character optimizers and are going to help the others super optimize.

[herrhauptmann]

Yeah I could, and take those first 5 levels of fighter anyway because I get bonus feats and increased BAB, better saves, and d10 hit die. I will choose greatsword for the awesome sneak attack synergy, then when they turn on me I'm still a formidable opponent.


I have played the Monk//Druid gestalt where my DM allowed flurry to stack with wildshaping, so I'm basically unstoppable because I rape everything and my wolverine also destroys face.

What greatsword/sneak attack synergy? A few more d6 per attack? Pfff. Greatsword is great at low levels because it has a high average damage (7+ 1.5str). It's great at high levels because of power attack.

Also, don't take odd levels in fighter. Swap fighter 5 for the first level in ANY other class. Even monk. The boost to your saves alone will be worth it. At high levels, the extra HP from going Ftr5 vs Ftr4/Monk1 isn't worth squat, because that and 2+int skill points from a bad list is all you'll get. But the +2 to all of your saves however, that's useful at any level.

[maximus25]

In my mind, the 'perfect' gestalt character is one who is strongly SAD, gets full BAB, all 3 saves as good saves, and has strong choices for standard actions.

Based on Power stat, you should mix the following classes:

Int
Wizard, Beguiler, Warblade, Factotum, Duskblade, Psion/Erudite, Archivist, Psychic Rogue, Artificer

Wis
Cleric, Druid, Paladin (Serenity), Swordsage, Psychic Warrior, Ardent,

Cha
Bard, Paladin (Feats), Sorceror, Crusader, Dread Necromacer, Favored Soul, Marshal

Misc - These are classes that are nearly attribute agnostic, and may be mixed freely with others without increasind MAD.
Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Warlock

Con - Since Con is a pseudo-relavent stat for everyone, these classes can also be added to the above with relatively little impact.
Barbarian, Incarnate, Totemist

Getting perfect match-ups out of these classes is not terribly difficult, and any combo you come up with can lead to a reasonably well-built character. If you want further help once you've selected a good pairing that you'd want to play, there are lots of people here who just love to offer advice like that.

TL;DR - Choose two classes from one of the menu's above, then ask for advice.

Wizard//Factotum sounds pretty amazing.

[herrhauptmann]

Wizard//Factotum sounds pretty amazing.
Whoops, forgot to say something:
DMM Cleric//Factotum is great too. Who cares if the cleric is dumb as a rock? He's got decent great wisdom, which is more turning attempts per day. Burn your opportunistic piety for your buffs, and save your real (greater) turnings for when you need to dust some undead.

[danzibr]

Barb on one side, War Hulk on the other. Ridonculous.

[herrhauptmann]

Barb on one side, War Hulk on the other. Ridonculous.

That's only marginally better than the standard warhulking hurler.
Yes, he can power attack for more, and still have the huge strength. And he can rage more times a day. But it's not that much better.

Why not warhulking hurler build, with a warblade on the other side of the gestalt? You can still make the concentration checks needed for diamond mind. And none of the other disciplines really need a skill check.
Or swordsage? What's better than a warhulking hurler? A warhulking hurler who can go invisible or dimdoor when he feels like it.

[Lord.Sorasen]

If you really want to throttle up your sneak attack damage, you could do rogue entirely one side (or any other sneak attack class), then do assassin on the other at levels 6-15. Assassin sneak attacks explicitly add to and stack with rogue sneak attacks.

Fighter with sneak attack progression + Ninja on the other side would give you full BAB and d10 HD, while giving you sudden strike and sneak attack, which is basically the same as double sneak minus flanking.

I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be that good. I just mean it provides a lot of bonus dice.

[The Rabbler]

Wizard//Factotum sounds pretty amazing.

It is. It's easily one of the best gestalt choices you can make. Wizard gets you spells, spells, and more spells, while factotum makes you very good at any skill, gives you even more spells, lets you defend yourself in a pinch, lets you ignore spell resistance, and breaks the action economy without even trying. And, because wizards need so few spells to functional, you can spend a good most of your feats on font of inspiration and get more inspiration points than you know what to do with.



Fighter with sneak attack progression + Ninja on the other side would give you full BAB and d10 HD, while giving you sudden strike and sneak attack, which is basically the same as double sneak minus flanking.

I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be that good. I just mean it provides a lot of bonus dice.

I wouldn't touch that build with a collapsible pole.

[maximus25]

It is. It's easily one of the best gestalt choices you can make. Wizard gets you spells, spells, and more spells, while factotum makes you very good at any skill, gives you even more spells, lets you defend yourself in a pinch, lets you ignore spell resistance, and breaks the action economy without even trying. And, because wizards need so few spells to functional, you can spend a good most of your feats on font of inspiration and get more inspiration points than you know what to do with.




I wouldn't touch that build with a collapsible pole.

So we are starting at level one, can you help me optimize a wizard//Factotum? It will most likely be a super blaster mage, and maybe as a secondary skillmonkey.

We are starting at level one.

[erikun]

Barbarian//Druid is one that I've wanted to try for a gestalt game for awhile. I'm a fan of psionics as well, so Psion//Psychic Rogue or Psychic Warrior//Ardent looks tempting as well.

Bard//Warblade with the Song of the White Raven feat is attractive too, although you'll probably run out of feats before you finish giving it everything you'd want.


But yes, INT-caster//Factotum is very good due to full casting, lots of skills points, and lots of abilities from the Factotum. Getting extra actions at later levels for multiple spells each round is nice.

You want to blast, rather than battlefield control? I was under the impression that the Sorcerer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer) was better at that job. Sorcerer//Warlock (for at-will flight and invisibility) or Sorcerer//Paladin/Abjurant Champion (for HP, BAB, and saves) might be a better blaster, even if you don't get extra actions. Sorcerer//Paladin/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) could end up quite ridiculous, as well.

[Re'ozul]

I tend to look at this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870266/Gestalt_Resource,_the_combos_Wizards_dont_want_you _to_know) list for inspiration, even though some of the combinations seem weird to me.

[Gardener]

You want to blast, rather than battlefield control? I was under the impression that the Sorcerer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer) was better at that job. Sorcerer//Warlock (for at-will flight and invisibility) or Sorcerer//Paladin/Abjurant Champion (for HP, BAB, and saves) might be a better blaster, even if you don't get extra actions. Sorcerer//Paladin/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) could end up quite ridiculous, as well.

Sorcerer is probably a better blaster, but Wizard can do it okay. And the Factotum letting you bust the action economy and nova something's face off, plus its intelligence synergy, makes Wizard//Factotum a strong choice for blasting (not that blasting is all that strong).

Also, OP? Define "blasty". Do you want to be doing lots and lots of HP damage? Do you want to see spell effects flying everywhere and destroying your enemies? Do you want fire and lightning flying from your fingertips?

Because if you don't care that much about the fire and lightning side, then look at Color Spray over Burning Hands. It might not do damage, but it incapacitates for several rounds and that's a lot of opportunity for the entire party to lay in with the hurt. Same goes for Glitterdust over Scorching Ray (though SR is pretty amazing with precision damage, like sneak attack) and Stinking Cloud over Fireball. Theyre still big, flashy effects you're throwing around, but HP damage isn't always the best option for spellslinging.

[maximus25]

Sorcerer is probably a better blaster, but Wizard can do it okay. And the Factotum letting you bust the action economy and nova something's face off, plus its intelligence synergy, makes Wizard//Factotum a strong choice for blasting (not that blasting is all that strong).

Also, OP? Define "blasty". Do you want to be doing lots and lots of HP damage? Do you want to see spell effects flying everywhere and destroying your enemies? Do you want fire and lightning flying from your fingertips?

Because if you don't care that much about the fire and lightning side, then look at Color Spray over Burning Hands. It might not do damage, but it incapacitates for several rounds and that's a lot of opportunity for the entire party to lay in with the hurt. Same goes for Glitterdust over Scorching Ray (though SR is pretty amazing with precision damage, like sneak attack) and Stinking Cloud over Fireball. Theyre still big, flashy effects you're throwing around, but HP damage isn't always the best option for spellslinging.

I wanna throw in some hp damage, but debilitating effects are good too.

[Gardener]

I wanna throw in some hp damage, but debilitating effects are good too.

Well, then, just raise your Int as high as possible and take a good mix of direct-damage and debilitating effects. If you can get direct damage spells with strong battlefield control riders (spells that damage and stun/daze, damaging clouds or patches, death effects with damage on successful saves) then all the better.

On the factotum side, take a look at this handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0). Key points: Try to have at least one rank in every skill you could ever see yourself using. Cunning Knowledge will let you make a level-appropriate attempt at it, but it only works in trained skills. Check with your DM about the wording of Cunning Surge and the availability of Font of Inspiration, which is from an (official) article on the Wizards site.

[The Rabbler]

Wizards are played most effectively by controlling the battlefield, buffing allies, and debuffing enemies. I would pick one or two to focus your character around and then decide on a build. Damage can always be dealt by the warblade.

If you want help actually building your character, we'll need to know:
1. what sources are allowed,
2. what level of optimization you're shooting for,
3. what level you start at,
4. your point buy/rolled stats,
5. what level you expect to reach,
6. what the rest of the group is playing, and
7. generally what you want your character to be capable of doing.

Any other details would also be nice to know; if you want your character to be more offensive-based or defense oriented for example.

[dspeyer]

Not to regress, but psions make great int-based blasters. They get a bunch of versatility by shifting energy, and augmenting is awesome.

[blazingshadow]

question. is ultimate magus allowed in gestalt? because i can see a dread necro 20//sorcerer 4/warmage 1/ultimate magus (spontaneous adaptation) 10/x 5 being a nice choice for a charisma powered spellcaster with blaster abilities

[Tvtyrant]

I didn't know sneak attack doesn't stack like that, that sucks. Oh well, something else I guess then.

Rogue//Ninja would with SA and SS. Now you get tons of precision damage when you catch people flat-footed.

[maximus25]

Wizards are played most effectively by controlling the battlefield, buffing allies, and debuffing enemies. I would pick one or two to focus your character around and then decide on a build. Damage can always be dealt by the warblade.

If you want help actually building your character, we'll need to know:
1. what sources are allowed,
2. what level of optimization you're shooting for,
3. what level you start at,
4. your point buy/rolled stats,
5. what level you expect to reach,
6. what the rest of the group is playing, and
7. generally what you want your character to be capable of doing.

Any other details would also be nice to know; if you want your character to be more offensive-based or defense oriented for example.

Any sources are allowed, super optimized, starting at level 1, haven't rolled yet, expected to reach level 10+, he is running the game for a year, don't know what the rest are playing yet, I want my character to be a blaster and general badass guy, want him to be fully offensive, like a glass cannon. Some other players will be meatshields and keep stuff off me.

[MeeposFire]

question. is ultimate magus allowed in gestalt? because i can see a dread necro 20//sorcerer 4/warmage 1/ultimate magus (spontaneous adaptation) 10/x 5 being a nice choice for a charisma powered spellcaster with blaster abilities

By default no. They recommend not allowing dual progression prcs in gestalt.

[The Rabbler]

Any sources are allowed, super optimized, starting at level 1, haven't rolled yet, expected to reach level 10+, he is running the game for a year, don't know what the rest are playing yet, I want my character to be a blaster and general badass guy, want him to be fully offensive, like a glass cannon. Some other players will be meatshields and keep stuff off me.

in that case, I would take Despeyer's advice and switch wizard to Psion. While it does take some learning, Psions cans go nova like no other and with the second half of your gestalt being factotum, you should have no trouble making the action economy your b***h.

actually, after considering it a bit, you might just want to jump off the deep end and go StP Erudite.

[maximus25]

Wizards are played most effectively by controlling the battlefield, buffing allies, and debuffing enemies. I would pick one or two to focus your character around and then decide on a build. Damage can always be dealt by the warblade.

If you want help actually building your character, we'll need to know:
1. what sources are allowed,
2. what level of optimization you're shooting for,
3. what level you start at,
4. your point buy/rolled stats,
5. what level you expect to reach,
6. what the rest of the group is playing, and
7. generally what you want your character to be capable of doing.

Any other details would also be nice to know; if you want your character to be more offensive-based or defense oriented for example.


in that case, I would take Despeyer's advice and switch wizard to Psion. While it does take some learning, Psions cans go nova like no other and with the second half of your gestalt being factotum, you should have no trouble making the action economy your b***h.

actually, after considering it a bit, you might just want to jump off the deep end and go StP Erudite.

StP? Sorry, I don't know book abbreviations well.

[The Rabbler]

StP? Sorry, I don't know book abbreviations well.

StP Erudite is the Spell to Power variant for the Erudite base class. It was released as part of a web series of expansions of psionic classes to give them more support than simply the XPH and the CP. The expansion, found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), gives Erudites the ability to learn any arcane spell you want by simply making a spellcraft check. Needless to say, it provides Erudites with a very powerful option.

[maximus25]

StP Erudite is the Spell to Power variant for the Erudite base class. It was released as part of a web series of expansions of psionic classes to give them more support than simply the XPH and the CP. The expansion, found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), gives Erudites the ability to learn any arcane spell you want by simply making a spellcraft check. Needless to say, it provides Erudites with a very powerful option.

Sounds awesome

[The Rabbler]

Sounds awesome

Glad to have helped.

As for your character, you'll probably want to go for something like wizard 1/erudite 3/cerebremancer 10/something psionic 6//factotum 8/binder 1/factotum 9-19

1. nothing stops a wizard from copying any and all spells that he wants into his spellbook, regardless of whether or not he can cast them.
2. StP Erudites can learn spells from any source, including spellbooks.
3. ?????
4. Profit

As for blasting, use psionics to blast as they tend to be much more useful/versatile than spells, but pick up spells for just about everything else. There won't be much you can't do.

If there are any specific feats that you want, grab them. If not, spend all available feats on font of inspiration to get piles and piles of inspiration points to then spend on piles and piles of extra standard actions.

EDIT: this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135261) should answer most questions you might have about the Erudite after you read through it a bit (it's confusing, to say the least).

[maximus25]

Glad to have helped.

As for your character, you'll probably want to go for something like wizard 1/erudite 3/cerebremancer 10/something psionic 6//factotum 8/binder 1/factotum 9-19

1. nothing stops a wizard from copying any and all spells that he wants into his spellbook, regardless of whether or not he can cast them.
2. StP Erudites can learn spells from any source, including spellbooks.
3. ?????
4. Profit

As for blasting, use psionics to blast as they tend to be much more useful/versatile than spells, but pick up spells for just about everything else. There won't be much you can't do.

If there are any specific feats that you want, grab them. If not, spend all available feats on font of inspiration to get piles and piles of inspiration points to then spend on piles and piles of extra standard actions.

EDIT: this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135261) should answer most questions you might have about the Erudite after you read through it a bit (it's confusing, to say the least).

Can you explain the dips? And this whole build?

[MeeposFire]

I like dual psionic classes since they share power points. A psychic warrior ardent (or psion if you don't mind losing a few power points but you want more powers) would have a ton of power points and a great number of powers (and if you kept the manifestor similar they might as well be from the same class) and the psychic warrior provides better basic abilities (bab armor weapons etc) while the other provides power.

A psion/euridite would also be nuts replace a few levels in any of these combos with levels in slayer and go nuts.

[NineThePuma]

Psionic power points from multiple sources don't stack.

Edit: I mean... If you get power point progressions from two sources, you only take the faster progression in gestalt.

[MeeposFire]

Psionic power points from multiple sources don't stack.

Edit: I mean... If you get power point progressions from two sources, you only take the faster progression in gestalt.

Multiclass Psionic Characters

If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have.

While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know.

It sounds like to me if you have multiple psionic classes then the power points stack.

[NineThePuma]

In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each. The process is similar to multiclassing, except that characters gain the full benefits of each class at each level. if the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect. The gestalt character retains all aspects that don’t overlap.

Emphasis mine.

[MeeposFire]

You do realize using that logic that wizards and sorcerers would overlap their spells and not get both since they both get the class feature "spells" in their class descriptions right? And we know by the examples given that was not intended on that front.

[Hirax]

Debatable. That's far from the only ambiguity introduced by gestalt rules, they're not fleshed out well.

[MeeposFire]

Debatable. That's far from the only ambiguity introduced by gestalt rules, they're not fleshed out well.

I will agree to that that is for sure.

[NineThePuma]

By that argument, you don't stack your power points anyways, and track two separate pools.

Yes, the RAW is stupid, and your way is probably RAI. Does not change how it is written.

[The Rabbler]

Can you explain the dips? And this whole build?

Erudite has no limit on the powers you can know, but once you manifest a power, it becomes one of the few powers you can cast that day. Once you manifest any specific power, it becomes effectively locked in. Think of it like a sorcerer that gets to pick his/her known spells every day. In general this is a good thing, but it makes buffs and single-cast spells/powers a huge waste. So, you go wizard/cerebremancer to make sure you can cast all of the once-per-day spells that you need whilst also keeping your erudite manifester level near the maximum.

The binder part I threw in because factotum is good for exactly 19 levels and the 20th level is a dead level. Binding/incarnum/other stuff make plenty useful 1-level dips. Or, if you want some skill tricks, you could go factotum 17/magical trickster 3 to get some easy metamagic or factotum 17/uncanny trickster 3 for your general love of skill tricks.

[Divide by Zero]

Ranger/Ranger, so you can dual-wield your dual-wield.

[Warlawk]

As for your character, you'll probably want to go for something like wizard 1/erudite 3/cerebremancer 10/something psionic 6//factotum 8/binder 1/factotum 9-19


Just wanted to point out one thing about that build in regards to gestalt...



Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.

I guess it doesn't technically say 100% that those classes cannot be used, and technically cerebremancer isn't listed, I think it's a pretty clear statement that using dual advancement PrCs in gestalt is usually not going to fly. Just pointing that out, if your DM wants to let it in, by all means have at it, but I wouldn't expect it to be a a valid choice by default.

[The Rabbler]

I guess it doesn't technically say 100% that those classes cannot be used, and technically cerebremancer isn't listed, I think it's a pretty clear statement that using dual advancement PrCs in gestalt is usually not going to fly. Just pointing that out, if your DM wants to let it in, by all means have at it, but I wouldn't expect it to be a a valid choice by default.

Eh. the OP asked for crazy builds. I'm offering one. Sure, its pushing the limits of legality, but the DM sounds like he's fine with shenanigans.

And, if it doesn't fly, just pick StP Erudite anyway and throw on any random psionic prestige class you can find. Factotum can provide all of the buffs you need.

[maximus25]

Looks great. Don't know the 6 any psionic classes tho, and don't know what cerbermancer does.

[The Rabbler]

Looks great. Don't know the 6 any psionic classes tho, and don't know what cerbermancer does.

cerebremancer is like mystic theurge but for psionics and arcane. It's a dual-progression PrC that is designed to allow for both arcane and psionic magic.

As for the remaining 6 levels in the build, just pick a manifesting PrC. Find one that sounds interesting to you. Anything that progresses manifester levels will work. It could be anything from metamind to thrallherd.

[maximus25]

cerebremancer is like mystic theurge but for psionics and arcane. It's a dual-progression PrC that is designed to allow for both arcane and psionic magic.

As for the remaining 6 levels in the build, just pick a manifesting PrC. Find one that sounds interesting to you. Anything that progresses manifester levels will work. It could be anything from metamind to thrallherd.

Cerbremancer looks awesome. And jesus metamind will be amazingly awesome. I think I'll choose that one for extra cheese

[The Rabbler]

Cerbremancer looks awesome. And jesus metamind will be amazingly awesome. I think I'll choose that one for extra cheese

I knew I was forgetting something; in order for that build to work, you need to take the precocious apprentice feat and the improved sigil: Krau feat while you're an illumian with the major sigil: Krau. It's a race in the races of destiny book; it makes you very very good at spellcasting.

[maximus25]

I knew I was forgetting something; in order for that build to work, you need to take the precocious apprentice feat and the improved sigil: Krau feat while you're an illumian with the major sigil: Krau. It's a race in the races of destiny book; it makes you very very good at spellcasting.

Love it, love everything about it.

[Eloel]

If you want an easy to play character (as opposed to versatile), you could also try a Sorcerer//FvS build. Thousands of spells, you'll probably go to bed with more spells than a wizard starts the day with. Add to that some mechanic of action-economy smacking ([Greater] Arcane Fusion comes to mind) on Sorc side, and daily buffs for all party on the FvS side, and you're golden.

[danzibr]

That's only marginally better than the standard warhulking hurler.
Yes, he can power attack for more, and still have the huge strength. And he can rage more times a day. But it's not that much better.

Why not warhulking hurler build, with a warblade on the other side of the gestalt? You can still make the concentration checks needed for diamond mind. And none of the other disciplines really need a skill check.
Or swordsage? What's better than a warhulking hurler? A warhulking hurler who can go invisible or dimdoor when he feels like it.

Yeah... that's much better than what I said. Warblade 20 on one side with War Hulk and other stuff on the other would be better.

[Utopia724]

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.

Reading the rules for gestalt named features such as uncanny dodge or sneak attack don't stack and take the faster progression while class mechanics do stack as they can be entirely different (arcane casting, divine casting, spontaneous or prepared and manifesting all have differences that would make it impossible to just take the better progression) so a sorcerer/wizard gestalt would be doing insane things like combining the sorcerer known list with wizard known list and being able to choose between preparing(why would you?) or just spontaneous casting with the sorcerers large amount of slots. It only makes sense to keep track separately except in the case of psionics where it says you may interchangeably use pp. (If only a sorceror/wizard could do this. Imagine casting like a wizard adding your sorcerer slots to your wizard slots and preparing ALL THE SPELLS)

[Buufreak]

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.

Reading the rules for gestalt named features such as uncanny dodge or sneak attack don't stack and take the faster progression while class mechanics do stack as they can be entirely different (arcane casting, divine casting, spontaneous or prepared and manifesting all have differences that would make it impossible to just take the better progression) so a sorcerer/wizard gestalt would be doing insane things like combining the sorcerer known list with wizard known list and being able to choose between preparing(why would you?) or just spontaneous casting with the sorcerers large amount of slots. It only makes sense to keep track separately except in the case of psionics where it says you may interchangeably use pp. (If only a sorceror/wizard could do this. Imagine casting like a wizard adding your sorcerer slots to your wizard slots and preparing ALL THE SPELLS)

Hello, newcomer, and welcome to the playground! Now, what you've done here is known as thread necromancy. In other words, this is a 5+ year old thread that has long been dead, and it should be left dead. As someone who is new, you are one of many to do this, but let's try to not make the same mistake twice.

[lylsyly]

I have been toying with the Concept of a Duskblade 20 // DMM Persisting, self buffing Cleric (with all the Prcs that entails to max out DMM.

just my 2 cp
YMMV

[Sapreaver]

Healer/truenamer is by far the most op did this once at my buddies table and it just wrecked. took vow of peace and voe of poverty so my equip requisites were different.
To be fair though he changed the truenamer stuidity so if i used the same spell over and over instead of increasing the dc i took increasing damage as sort of a universal blow back