3.5 dragonblooded Sorc, need help with Draconic feats.

[Kin Silvion]

Most specifically, what can you recommend for draconic feats. I already have wings, and will be taking Improved Wings at 6th level. I have 10 strength, so stronger wings are out.

Is it possible to take some flying attack feats or something? I mean I'll probably take Draconic Toughness just for the extra 2hp per draconic feat.

I have Vigor and Heritage, since I needed heritage for Vigor. Might go with Draconic Armor, since it'll give me DR per spell level while healing myself.

Any tips?

[NeoSeraphi]

There are more offensive feats in the Dragon Magic book that work together with the Dragon Heritage feat from the Draconomicon. The Dragon Magic ones allow you to turn a spell into an offensive burst of damage based on your draconic ancestor. (Lighting for a blue dragon, orb of acid for a black dragon, etc)

[Darrin]

Most specifically, what can you recommend for draconic feats.


Short answer: Other than what you can get out of Dragonborn of Bahumat (including Dragon Wings/Improved Dragon Wings), I wouldn't recommend them at all.

Longer answer: Draconic feats are a bit of a trap for sorcerers: you are already murderously thin on feats, and most draconic feats require a bunch of other draconic feats before they become even slightly useful. Once you start going down that path, you pretty much throw metamagic and item creation out the window. My breakdown of the various draconic feats:

Draconic Arcane Grace: That's what a Cloak/Vest of Resistance is for... but as an immediate action, not a bad option in a pinch, particularly if you know the DC and are just a couple points short.

Draconic Breath: Sacrifice a spell for a breath weapon... or you could cast a spell that does more damage/debuff/etc. There are better ways to get a breath weapon that doesn't cost you spells (ok, well, mostly Dragonborn). If you want a reliable area-effect that doesn't waste spells, then consider one of the reserve feats.

Draconic Claws: You are not one of the meatbags who shoves pokey-things into the snarly-crunchies! If you're standing next to something you could conceivably use your claws on, you're doing something wrong.

Draconic Flight: So you give up a spell (oh, like say, for example, FLY!) to fly a short distance for the rest of your turn (note: NOT the rest of the round), and when your turn is over, if you're not already on the ground you promptly drop like a rock. Yeah, I can't wait to take that feat!

Draconic Heritage: Sorcerers should get this or one of the bloodline feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5076244&postcount=30) (Dragon Compendium) for free at 1st level.

Draconic Legacy: So you actually blew four of your feat slots on useless draconic tsotchkes just so you could know a few more spells... like detect secret doors, endure elements, or delay poison. WOOHOO! Yes, you truly *are* Draconic Death Incarnate. Due to all those prereq feats, you're most likely qualifying for this feat around ECL 12, so you've spent over half of your non-epic career without a grab bag of three mostly useless spells (ok, there are a few gems in there). You're better off just taking the Extra Spell feat four or five times, you get more spells that way, and you can pick ones that are actually useful. Or take a Bloodline feat (Dragon Compendium) and get nine more known spells for only one feat.

Draconic Persuasion: Somewhat useful, in that you're likely to have the highest Charisma in the group and may have to be the "Party Face". However, you got completely screwed on both skill points and Cha-based skills, *and* probably don't have a high Int to make up for it. So leave the Bluff-stuff to the bard: that's his job. If there is no bard, ask the DM if Extra Spell -> glibness is available. If so, that's probably a better feat choice than Draconic Persuasion.

Draconic Power: Meh. Might be somewhat decent when combined with Spell Focus or Energy Subsitution... but oh, what's that? You couldn't take those feats? Because you got boned on bonus feats and wound up taking these draconic feats instead? *AND* you get boned on the casting time for metamagic? Well, yeah, sucks to be you...

Draconic Presence: There are much better ways to get frightful presence that don't cost you spells, such as Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Frightful Presence (Draconomicon, although it's somewhat galling that Intimidate is cross-class for you), or probably a half-dozen prestige classes. The 10' range is even more insulting... that's close enough the snarly-crunchies could possibly *touch* you!

Draconic Resistance: Bleah... there are generally better ways to get energy resistance than blowing your precious feat slots on this: spells, magic items, soulmelds, etc.

Draconic Skin: Spending at least two feats to get a +1 AC bonus is even worse than taking Dodge. It also doesn't scale, and for some bizarre reason, doesn't get better if you get more Draconic feats.

Draconic Toughness: I'm a bit on the fence with this one... if you *did* blow a bunch of your feat slots on fluffy draconic window-dressing, then ok, might as well get some HP out of it. On the other hand... you're a sorcerer, you should be spending feats on stuff that helps you crack the planet in half, not on something that lets you survive one or two extra sword-hits. Avoiding damage is what your meatbags and spells are for, not your feats.

...and the Dragon Magic Draconic Feats:

Black Dragon Heritage: Sacrifice a spell for a poison attack... or you could just buy/create/fabricate your own poison. And what's this about touch attacks? If the snarly-crunchies are close enough to touch you, you're doing something wrong!

Blue Dragon Heritage: Save your spells, get a reserve feat instead.

Brass Dragon Heritage: Or, you know, just cast sleep/deep slumber instead!

Bronze Dragon Heritage: Actually, I like this one. Swift action, cuts down on the "inappropriate touching" thing, and provokes AoOs for your meatbags.

Copper Dragon Heritage: Meh. Quicker to just cast a spell that kills 'em all in a 20' radius burst.

Draconic Armor: By the time you can cast high enough spells that this might be useful, everybody and their dog has a way to bypass DR/magic. You're better off just buying a few extra scrolls of stoneskin.

Draconic Knowledge: Yeah, sure, go ahead and rub my nose in the fact that the sorcerer's class skill list is pathetically short, and even if I did have access to all knowledge skills, I don't have enough skill points to make them useful.

Draconic Senses: Three feats to get Darkvision 60'? Ugh. Shape Soulmeld: Basilisk Mask or Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment -> Baator domain is a better deal feat-wise. You're probably better off dipping Mindbender and taking Mindsight (Lords of Madness)-- but, oh, look at all those cross-class skills you don't have. That are Cha-based, the core stat of your class. Yep, that burns a bit.

Draconic Vigor: Oh Hell Yeah!, you should take this. If you're going to take Draconic Heritage, grab this first and forget the rest of this [Draconic] stuff. Which you already did. So... good job.

Dragonfire Assault: Power Attack is meatbag work. Ok, there are a few weaponlike touch spells (flame dagger, scimitar of sand, etc.) where this might be useful, but again, remember the touching thing?

Dragonfire Channeling: While there are a few ways to get turn undead on a sorcerer chassis, your cleric levels are unlikely to be high enough to do any useful damage. Leave this one for the healbots.

Dragonfire Inspiration: In the hands of a well-built bard, this feat is an exploding volcano of awesomesauce. But you're not a bard, and dipping is tough because you're already a level behind Mr. Smartypants-Wizard, so best leave this one to the bard.

Gold Dragon Lineage: Somewhat difficult to use effectively. The swift action to give all your allies a buff on saves is nice, but you have to use that on your turn, so you run the risk that the spell you gave up gets wasted when nobody has to make a save in the next several rounds. Much more useful when you *know* an important save is coming: trying to bypass a known trap, secondary effect on a poison, multiple allies got hit with hold person, etc. So... probably one of the more decent [Draconic] options.

Green Dragon Lineage: Paired with the right follow-up spell, this can be absolute murder, particularly since a lot of higher-CR creatures tend to have very low Will saves. However, it takes a standard action to use, so without some kind of celerity/action-economy shenanigans, you're looking at a two-round combo. The other big downside is most of the really nasty Will-save spells are also [mind-affecting], which a great deal of higher-CR creatures are immune. So you're probably better off spending those two rounds casting two spells that don't depend on your target blowing a Will save.

Red Dragon Lineage: Blech. Not only is [fire] damage the most common energy resistance/immunity in the game, there are a dozen other ways to breath fire that doesn't eat up your spell slots. You're better off with a reserve feat.

Silver Dragon Lineage: Area-effect paralysis... this sounds very tempting, but two major strikes against it. First, a Fort save negates, and that tends to be the highest save of most creatures. And second, that word "adjacent"... if you're surrounded by enemies, you're doing something wrong.

White Dragon Lineage: Worth it! Maybe almost as good as Draconic Vigor, because unlike rage, it doesn't give you the illusion of more HP, it actually gives you Temp HP... so when the "rage" ends, you don't risk being dropped into negative HP. The resistance to cold is also nice, if you know you're going up against something with [cold] attacks.



Is it possible to take some flying attack feats or something?


Fly-By Attack is usually a given for most fliers, but may not be necessary... remember, as a sorcerer, you want to stay out of melee range, so most everything you can probably deal with via "kiting". If you need to get up close to deliver touch attacks, then being able to fly away on the same round is definitely a huge plus, but there are plenty of other great spells that work just as well if not even better by flying *way over there* where your opponent can't go after you.

Hover may be more useful than Fly-By Attack, particularly if you need to use a full-round action to cast a metamagic spell (although you should really be using Rapid Metamagic, metamagic rods, or some other method to avoid that). Other than that... you might want to check if your DM will let you take Improved Speed (Draconomicon) or Air Heritage (Planar Handbook), although you may be better off increasing your fly speed via a spell. I wouldn't worry so much about getting any fly feats after Improved Dragon Wings. So long as your targets can't retaliate against you via melee attacks... well, that's the whole point of getting a fly speed.

[Runestar]

Or take that prc in races of dragon which grants bonus draconic feat and improves your draconic breath damage. It gives up 2 lvs of spellcasting, but I think it is cool enough to make up for this shortfall.

[Fax Celestis]

Draconic Knowledge and Draconic Senses, from Dragon Magic, are increeeeedible.

[Kin Silvion]

Short answer: Other than what you can get out of Dragonborn of Bahumat (including Dragon Wings/Improved Dragon Wings), I wouldn't recommend them at all.

Longer answer: Draconic feats are a bit of a trap for sorcerers: you are already murderously thin on feats, and most draconic feats require a bunch of other draconic feats before they become even slightly useful. Once you start going down that path, you pretty much throw metamagic and item creation out the window. My breakdown of the various draconic feats:

Draconic Arcane Grace: That's what a Cloak/Vest of Resistance is for... but as an immediate action, not a bad option in a pinch, particularly if you know the DC and are just a couple points short.

Draconic Breath: Sacrifice a spell for a breath weapon... or you could cast a spell that does more damage/debuff/etc. There are better ways to get a breath weapon that doesn't cost you spells (ok, well, mostly Dragonborn). If you want a reliable area-effect that doesn't waste spells, then consider one of the reserve feats.

Draconic Claws: You are not one of the meatbags who shoves pokey-things into the snarly-crunchies! If you're standing next to something you could conceivably use your claws on, you're doing something wrong.

Draconic Flight: So you give up a spell (oh, like say, for example, FLY!) to fly a short distance for the rest of your turn (note: NOT the rest of the round), and when your turn is over, if you're not already on the ground you promptly drop like a rock. Yeah, I can't wait to take that feat!

Draconic Heritage: Sorcerers should get this or one of the bloodline feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5076244&postcount=30) (Dragon Compendium) for free at 1st level.

Draconic Legacy: So you actually blew four of your feat slots on useless draconic tsotchkes just so you could know a few more spells... like detect secret doors, endure elements, or delay poison. WOOHOO! Yes, you truly *are* Draconic Death Incarnate. Due to all those prereq feats, you're most likely qualifying for this feat around ECL 12, so you've spent over half of your non-epic career without a grab bag of three mostly useless spells (ok, there are a few gems in there). You're better off just taking the Extra Spell feat four or five times, you get more spells that way, and you can pick ones that are actually useful. Or take a Bloodline feat (Dragon Compendium) and get nine more known spells for only one feat.

Draconic Persuasion: Somewhat useful, in that you're likely to have the highest Charisma in the group and may have to be the "Party Face". However, you got completely screwed on both skill points and Cha-based skills, *and* probably don't have a high Int to make up for it. So leave the Bluff-stuff to the bard: that's his job. If there is no bard, ask the DM if Extra Spell -> glibness is available. If so, that's probably a better feat choice than Draconic Persuasion.

Draconic Power: Meh. Might be somewhat decent when combined with Spell Focus or Energy Subsitution... but oh, what's that? You couldn't take those feats? Because you got boned on bonus feats and wound up taking these draconic feats instead? *AND* you get boned on the casting time for metamagic? Well, yeah, sucks to be you...

Draconic Presence: There are much better ways to get frightful presence that don't cost you spells, such as Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Frightful Presence (Draconomicon, although it's somewhat galling that Intimidate is cross-class for you), or probably a half-dozen prestige classes. The 10' range is even more insulting... that's close enough the snarly-crunchies could possibly *touch* you!

Draconic Resistance: Bleah... there are generally better ways to get energy resistance than blowing your precious feat slots on this: spells, magic items, soulmelds, etc.

Draconic Skin: Spending at least two feats to get a +1 AC bonus is even worse than taking Dodge. It also doesn't scale, and for some bizarre reason, doesn't get better if you get more Draconic feats.

Draconic Toughness: I'm a bit on the fence with this one... if you *did* blow a bunch of your feat slots on fluffy draconic window-dressing, then ok, might as well get some HP out of it. On the other hand... you're a sorcerer, you should be spending feats on stuff that helps you crack the planet in half, not on something that lets you survive one or two extra sword-hits. Avoiding damage is what your meatbags and spells are for, not your feats.

...and the Dragon Magic Draconic Feats:

Black Dragon Heritage: Sacrifice a spell for a poison attack... or you could just buy/create/fabricate your own poison. And what's this about touch attacks? If the snarly-crunchies are close enough to touch you, you're doing something wrong!

Blue Dragon Heritage: Save your spells, get a reserve feat instead.

Brass Dragon Heritage: Or, you know, just cast sleep/deep slumber instead!

Bronze Dragon Heritage: Actually, I like this one. Swift action, cuts down on the "inappropriate touching" thing, and provokes AoOs for your meatbags.

Copper Dragon Heritage: Meh. Quicker to just cast a spell that kills 'em all in a 20' radius burst.

Draconic Armor: By the time you can cast high enough spells that this might be useful, everybody and their dog has a way to bypass DR/magic. You're better off just buying a few extra scrolls of stoneskin.

Draconic Knowledge: Yeah, sure, go ahead and rub my nose in the fact that the sorcerer's class skill list is pathetically short, and even if I did have access to all knowledge skills, I don't have enough skill points to make them useful.

Draconic Senses: Three feats to get Darkvision 60'? Ugh. Shape Soulmeld: Basilisk Mask or Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment -> Baator domain is a better deal feat-wise. You're probably better off dipping Mindbender and taking Mindsight (Lords of Madness)-- but, oh, look at all those cross-class skills you don't have. That are Cha-based, the core stat of your class. Yep, that burns a bit.

Draconic Vigor: Oh Hell Yeah!, you should take this. If you're going to take Draconic Heritage, grab this first and forget the rest of this [Draconic] stuff. Which you already did. So... good job.

Dragonfire Assault: Power Attack is meatbag work. Ok, there are a few weaponlike touch spells (flame dagger, scimitar of sand, etc.) where this might be useful, but again, remember the touching thing?

Dragonfire Channeling: While there are a few ways to get turn undead on a sorcerer chassis, your cleric levels are unlikely to be high enough to do any useful damage. Leave this one for the healbots.

Dragonfire Inspiration: In the hands of a well-built bard, this feat is an exploding volcano of awesomesauce. But you're not a bard, and dipping is tough because you're already a level behind Mr. Smartypants-Wizard, so best leave this one to the bard.

Gold Dragon Lineage: Somewhat difficult to use effectively. The swift action to give all your allies a buff on saves is nice, but you have to use that on your turn, so you run the risk that the spell you gave up gets wasted when nobody has to make a save in the next several rounds. Much more useful when you *know* an important save is coming: trying to bypass a known trap, secondary effect on a poison, multiple allies got hit with hold person, etc. So... probably one of the more decent [Draconic] options.

Green Dragon Lineage: Paired with the right follow-up spell, this can be absolute murder, particularly since a lot of higher-CR creatures tend to have very low Will saves. However, it takes a standard action to use, so without some kind of celerity/action-economy shenanigans, you're looking at a two-round combo. The other big downside is most of the really nasty Will-save spells are also [mind-affecting], which a great deal of higher-CR creatures are immune. So you're probably better off spending those two rounds casting two spells that don't depend on your target blowing a Will save.

Red Dragon Lineage: Blech. Not only is [fire] damage the most common energy resistance/immunity in the game, there are a dozen other ways to breath fire that doesn't eat up your spell slots. You're better off with a reserve feat.

Silver Dragon Lineage: Area-effect paralysis... this sounds very tempting, but two major strikes against it. First, a Fort save negates, and that tends to be the highest save of most creatures. And second, that word "adjacent"... if you're surrounded by enemies, you're doing something wrong.

White Dragon Lineage: Worth it! Maybe almost as good as Draconic Vigor, because unlike rage, it doesn't give you the illusion of more HP, it actually gives you Temp HP... so when the "rage" ends, you don't risk being dropped into negative HP. The resistance to cold is also nice, if you know you're going up against something with [cold] attacks.



Fly-By Attack is usually a given for most fliers, but may not be necessary... remember, as a sorcerer, you want to stay out of melee range, so most everything you can probably deal with via "kiting". If you need to get up close to deliver touch attacks, then being able to fly away on the same round is definitely a huge plus, but there are plenty of other great spells that work just as well if not even better by flying *way over there* where your opponent can't go after you.

Hover may be more useful than Fly-By Attack, particularly if you need to use a full-round action to cast a metamagic spell (although you should really be using Rapid Metamagic, metamagic rods, or some other method to avoid that). Other than that... you might want to check if your DM will let you take Improved Speed (Draconomicon) or Air Heritage (Planar Handbook), although you may be better off increasing your fly speed via a spell. I wouldn't worry so much about getting any fly feats after Improved Dragon Wings. So long as your targets can't retaliate against you via melee attacks... well, that's the whole point of getting a fly speed.

The thing is I'm playing a Silverbrow Human, so the "non-silver" heritage abilities are lost on me, and being so, my character specializes in Ice Magic. Since, you know, Silver Dragon.

Also, I'm playing a less-than-optimized character. I'm not trying to min/max my character. I'm just having fun, so feats really aren't that important. I mean if I was min/maxing, or worrying at all about optimization, I wouldn't have taken any draconic feats to begin with, since most of it is a waste of a feat. Outside of wings... or take a few, I think 4, levels of Elemental Savant "Air". For a fly speed.

[Fax Celestis]

The thing is I'm playing a Silverbrow Human, so the "non-silver" heritage abilities are lost on me, and being so, my character specializes in Ice Magic. Since, you know, Silver Dragon.

Great, I'm basically playing the same thing. Check this out (http://www.pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=6244), then.

Tip: take magic of the dragonheart as a spell known ASAP. Or possibly get it on an eternal wand, if you can afford it.

[Kin Silvion]

If >1 draconic feat, Low-Light Vision
If >3 draconic feats, 60' Darkvision
If >4 draconic feats, 20' Blindsense

So... how would I get that? As well, I don't see Magic of the Dragonheart, but I shall definitely look it up if it's good.

Also, yeah, our characters seem to be slightly similar. Gotta love that Ice Lance.

[Runestar]

Draconic breath can be useful at lower lvs. You take non-damage spells like sleep and glitterdust as per normal, and if you meet foes where such spells are useless, simply convert them to damage. To me, it is not the damage that counts, but the versatility.

Dragonblood sorc ACF gives free dragon heritage, so you can take draconic breath and another feat at 1st lv. Maybe draconic toughness? That extra 6hp at 1st lv would be useful.

[grogthecaveman]

Hope this is helpful. I know the rest of this thread has been helpful to me!

This sounds very similar to a character I am playing. I am not concerned with optimizing with this character - this is more of a thematic character. The DM is new and we're running a 2e module converted to 3.5.

My plan involves taking all three Dragonblood Sorcerer racial substitution levels. My DM has approved taking level one of this RSL as my first level, getting Draconic Heritage as a bonus feat from DbS, thereby gaining the Dragonblood type. Planning to go to Dragonheart Mage PrC. Starred feats are [Draconic] feats. I will be using the retraining rules in PHB2 at level 6 to replace Draconic Breath, which I will take at level 1. I will get 18 caster levels, taking a hit at level 8 and 14 (DhM 1 and 6). Going with high Cha and Int.

Skills will be (2+int mod, listed in order of preference) Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, Concentration, Use Magic Device, Hide, Bluff

So far I have this planned:

1: DbS 1, Draconic Heritage* (DbS bonus), Draconic Breath* (Human bonus, retrain to Draconic Toughness* at level 6), Dragon Wings, Arcane Insight +2
2: Sor 2
3: Sor 3, Draconic Senses* (lowlight & darkvision)
4: DbS 4 (SLA 3/day), Arcane Insight +4
5: Sor 5
6: Sor 6, Improved Dragon Wings
7: DbS 7, bonus spells, Arcane Insight +6
8: DhM 1, Draconic Breath* (2d6)
9: DhM 2, Draconic Vigor*, Practiced Spellcaster
10: DhM 3
11: DhM 4, Draconic Legacy*
12: DhM 5, Spell Penetration
13: DhM 6, Draconic Breath 2d8
14: DhM 7
15: DhM 8, Draconic Knowledge*, Greater Spell Penetration
16: DhM 9
17: DhM 10, Draconic Breath 3d6
18: Sorcerer or PrC with full caster progression, Versatile Spellcaster
19: Sorcerer or PrC with full caster progression
20: Sorcerer or PrC with full caster progression

Spells (listed per level in the order I plan to take them)
0th - Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Amaneuensis (SC), Message, Open/Close, Dancing Lights, Detect Poison, Acid Splash
1st - Unseesn Servant, Comprehend Languages, Magic Missile, Grease, Benign Transposition
2nd - Alter Self, Invisibility, Glitterdust, Detect Thoughts, Scorching Ray
3rd - Tongues, Stinking Cloud, Clairvoyance, Major Image
4th - Dimension Door, Summon Monster IV, Fire Shield, Polymorph
5th - Teleport, Arc of Lightning, Break Enchantment, Cone of Cold
6th - Dispel Magic (Greater), Acid Fog, Disintegrate
7th - Prismatic Spray, Project Image, Scrying (Greater)
8th - (2) ??
9th - (1) ??