Full attack and move house rule

[ZiggZagg]

Do you think it's overpowered to let characters move and get their full attack? Reason for this is I have moved to a new way of DMing that doesn't use mini's and grid (mostly because they are not as readily available for us as they used to be). So, it is harder to judge distances and battlefield position. It isn't so bad with ranged characters and spellcasters, but the melee character always have the same questions. "Can I get my full attack or not?" And, in an attempt to increase the power of melee based characters anyway, I'm thinking of letting players get full attack on move, and half of their attacks when charging. Does this sound game breaking?

[Kefkafreak]

Can your dragons do the same? :smalleek:

[ZiggZagg]

I thought about that, too. LoL as fun as that would be, I was going to just let this apply to the players...I seem to kill them enough, as it is. I don't need any help :smallcool:

[Killer Angel]

Let them do it at the cost of one feat. This way, they must pay a little something for the privilege, and you can justify having monsters without this.

[faceroll]

I made full attacks a standard action as a 6th level class ability for fighters and monks.

I also made it so mobility now gives you the benefits of spring attack, spring attack now lets you make all your attacks during a move, and whirlwind attack lets you make a full attack as a move action.

We'll see how that changes the game. It doesn't make it so dragons &c automatically get moves and full attacks, which is good.

[Killer Angel]

I made full attacks a standard action as a 6th level class ability for fighters and monks.


In the distance, you can hear Paladins, Barbarians and Co., complaining about the unfairness...

[faceroll]

In the distance, you can hear Paladins, Barbarians and Co., complaining about the unfairness...

No one at my table is playing a Paladin (which I would probably compensate with a bard style spell list instead of increased combat prowess), and Barbarians get pounce as a 1st level ability (which fits as a lesser version of what fighters get, so I am cool with it).

ToB classes get plenty of neat tricks already. Rangers get the whirlwind attack line as bonus feats, since the rapid shot/twf line are all one feat they pick up at level 2 as part of combat style.

[Killer Angel]

No one at my table is playing a Paladin (which I would probably compensate with a bard style spell list instead of increased combat prowess), and Barbarians get pounce as a 1st level ability (which fits as a lesser version of what fighters get, so I am cool with it).


Makes sense: basically, you're giving additional features to some classes, which is good for low level tiers.

[HappyBlanket]

I prefer having it as a Fighter Bonus Feat.

[Eldariel]

I prefer having it as a Fighter Bonus Feat.

That's like Natural Spell; why should a feat everyone takes even be a feat?

[HappyBlanket]

That's like Natural Spell; why should a feat everyone takes even be a feat?

Would you rather it be free?

I like faceroll's ruling better though. More power to multiple Fighter levels.

[Eldariel]

Would you rather it be free?

Far as "attacking while moving" goes? Absolutely. The martial combat system doesn't even make sense as it stands; this would make it make a bit more. Natural Spell? Well, I'd rather remove it entirely; it's stupid.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Far as "attacking while moving" goes? Absolutely. The martial combat system doesn't even make sense as it stands; this would make it make a bit more. Natural Spell? Well, I'd rather remove it entirely; it's stupid.

It is the easiest option, though, at least as far as RAW-brain power goes. Designers buff concept, ask each other stuffs, then go "Dude, it is totally not fair to have to be a nature worshiping pansy - even if he does eventually get a sweet bear, can summon bears for free, and even be a bear - but he can't do all three at once. It's just not "fair!":smallyuk:

EDIT: Or some similar hypocrisy of "no one wants to be a healbot, so let's secretly give them awesome "higher" level spells like Divine Power and Righteous Might!"

[Killer Angel]

That's like Natural Spell; why should a feat everyone takes even be a feat?

Because natural spell is class specific, while this wouldn't, and not all the meleers are fighters, and not everyone got so many slots for feats.
Using a barbarian, or a paladin, or even a ranger, you'll have to make hard choices, 'cause there are many good feats, including splatbooks.
And the same will apply to a CodZilla.

[LaughingRogue]

I thought about that, too. LoL as fun as that would be, I was going to just let this apply to the players...I seem to kill them enough, as it is. I don't need any help :smallcool:

You originally said it was because you didn't have a grid or the minis available to do the combats (for the lack of a better word) correctly , so how do you plan on being able to do 3d combat with a dragon without a grid reference and not allowing it to get its full attack (I understand that it would be possible, just seems very cumbersome)... Just curious

Also yes I do think a free Pounce like ability is a bit OP.

[Eldariel]

Because natural spell is class specific, while this wouldn't, and not all the meleers are fighters, and not everyone got so many slots for feats.
Using a barbarian, or a paladin, or even a ranger, you'll have to make hard choices, 'cause there are many good feats, including splatbooks.
And the same will apply to a CodZilla.

Well, the feat is so important that all those classes basically have 6 feats in their whole progression now. Is that really desirable?

[McSmack]

I've simply removed full attacks from the game. The attack action now lets you do all of your attacks.

THough I honestly like faceroll's rules a lot. I might incorporate them when I write up my big book o' houserules.

[Taelas]

You can solve it by having iterative attacks be a single attack action, and full attacks be TWF and multiple natural attacks. That does penalize TWF, though. Maybe lower (or remove) the TWF penalties to compensate.

[faceroll]

My house rules favor fighters, because my players like fighters and take more than 2 levels of fighter. It also powers up PCs without also powering up monsters. I would be careful about giving monsters full attacks as standard actions as a default.

[Taelas]

With my idea, that isn't really a problem. Most monsters have natural attacks. Just keep in mind that using weapons with high BAB is somewhat more powerful than using natural weapons, and you're fine.

[HappyBlanket]

Well, the feat is so important that all those classes basically have 6 feats in their whole progression now. Is that really desirable?

Do all Barbarians, Warblades, Swordsages, etc really need Pounce? I was under the assumption that they worked fine without it.

[Rhaegar14]

The only thing you need to be aware of is Scouts; if Swift Hunters can suddenly get all of their skirmish damage on a full attack without any feat investment, that could have unforeseen consequences.

Then again, it might not, because melee deserves nice things. XD

[Eldariel]

Do all Barbarians, Warblades, Swordsages, etc really need Pounce? I was under the assumption that they worked fine without it.

Well. You can get sufficient charge damage with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack. And ToB-types have maneuvers to get around that obstacle. But the thing is, they need to get around it somehow; even they can't just move and attack people lest they want to do like one quarter of what their normal output per turn on those levels is. In short, they can make do without Pounce because they have a bunch of abilities that bypass the "can't move and attack"-problem.


The only thing you need to be aware of is Scouts; if Swift Hunters can suddenly get all of their skirmish damage on a full attack without any feat investment, that could have unforeseen consequences.

Then again, it might not, because melee deserves nice things. XD

Considering they're worse than normal no-bonus full attacks without a means to do that and they still do only about half of Rogues' damage, I'm oddly alright with this. :smallwink:

[Chess435]

Just to throw it out there: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) lets you move as a swift action for 1 minute/day.

[Warlawk]

With my idea, that isn't really a problem. Most monsters have natural attacks. Just keep in mind that using weapons with high BAB is somewhat more powerful than using natural weapons, and you're fine.

Our group has started using full attack as a standard action and it hasn't been an issue at all. Personally the way I solve pc vs monster issues is to rule that the ability to full attack as a standard action is a power given to any creature which has class levels (NPC classes, expert, warrior etc do not get this).

That leaves monsters exactly the same as they were, but still leaves you the option to choose a monster champion and juice him up a bit by giving him class levels. An easy system that gives melee some much needed love.

If you make this a feat you are just punishing your martial players by taking an extremely limited resource, which is one of their only ways to get special abilities in the first place, and taxing it. Limiting it to fighters/monks just craps on all the other classes that want to full attack and places artificially inflated value on those classes while ignoring all the other things that make those classes bad mechanically. If you're going to use it, just give it to everyone.

[MeeposFire]

Do all Barbarians, Warblades, Swordsages, etc really need Pounce? I was under the assumption that they worked fine without it.

No what they need are effective standard actions. Warblades, crusaders, and swordmages have those (strikes). Fighters, barbs, and many other classes lack good standard actions. Pounce allows you to mitigate this problem somewhat by giving you an additional way of getting a decent attack off (full attacks on the move which eliminates the need for good standard actions on the move assuming you can charge in that round). It does not help you anywhere else but at least you get one more instance of decent rounds.

[TheOOB]

I wouldn't make it a feat, beacause then you're basically feat taxing every non-spellcaster. I have no problem making it a standard action.

[FMArthur]

I'm toying with the idea of giving a different kind of free movement to non-ToB, non-casting melee classes instead of just Pounce and only Pounce. It's a result of my really liking the Sudden Leap maneuver.

I've got 3:
Quick Jump: Move up to your Jump check as a Swift action, and high jump distance is 1/2 the check instead of 1/4. At 5th level the check is made as if running, and then at 10th high jumps improve to the full check. This type has the advantage of being able to bypass troublesome terrain and reach low flying creatures, but provokes AoOs.
Quick Tumble: Move with a Tumble as a Swift action, following normal rules as if you'd taken a Move action to do so. At 5th level you can use it to move your full speed or through difficult terrain (but not both) without penalty, and at 10th there is no penalty for tumbling past multiple foes. I use Tumble vs CMD ripped out of Pathfinder rules, though.
Class Pounce: Pounce. Its versatility compared to the other two is limited, but covers longer distances and gets all kind of synergy everywhere already. At 5th level you can make one 90 degree direction change mid-charge, and at 10th level you can continue moving past a slain foe to make the rest of your full attack. Named Class Pounce just to differentiate from non-improving Pounce.

Barbarians get CP, Fighters get QJ+QT, Monks get all three, Rogues get QT, Marshals get CP+QT, Hexblades get QJ, Samurai get CP+QT, Swashbucklers get QJ+QT, Ninja get QJ+QT, Scouts get CP+QJ, Soulknives get all three, Knights get CP+QT, and Dragon Shamans get QJ. Obviously, those lacking the class skills for these abilities to work get them. Progressions stack for the multiclassed. The idea is to give the people who need nice things some nice things without giving pet summoners and CoDzillas the same free stuff (not that they care all that much).

This is more complicated than just handing out standard action full attacks, for sure. But I bet it makes melee more interesting, and none of those classes are at all complicated to begin with.

[Killer Angel]

I wouldn't make it a feat, beacause then you're basically feat taxing every non-spellcaster. I have no problem making it a standard action.

Feats are precious, but meleers usually have some to spend. At least, Fighters, and meleers with a couple of fighters levels.
Making it a standard action gives the same power to Druidzilla and Clerzilla, and it will be available for free also to monsters and NPC. How many Clerzilla you know with Power attack and Leap attack?
Yes, making it a feat will tax meleers, but it will be almost exclusively used by them, thus ending in an advantage.

[jpreem]

I think making it a fighter bonus feat is quite an idea and i would couple it with monk getting its flurry of blows as a standard action for free. So Fighters get it by virtue of their class (bonus feat to choose), monks will also get somekind of move-attack ability as a class feature and all other meleers can just pick it up as a feat ( other meleers tend to have class features of their own anyhow).
Anyway melee feats need some serious work - I like the ideas of faceroll here. I also think that the feat chains should be shortened and/or feats given more options.

[Person_Man]

Pounce or free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) in 3.5 currently costs about 1 class level or 2ish Feats or 12,000ish gp. Most Tier 1-3 classes have access to it via native class abilities by mid levels. The Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger can each get it fairly easily as well. It's not that big of a deal.