Simulacrum Army...how is it done?

[Maho-Tsukai]

When I posted an earler thread trying to prove wizards have no mechanical way to take over the world while clerics do(Undead Army) somebody mentioned that a wizard can have more or less have a potentially infinite amount simulacrum Balors, Solars ect... just like the cleric can have a potentially infinite amount of undead(Spawn tricks and Animate Dread Warrior spellstitching). However, I have no idea how this is done but yet REALLY want to make a minionmaster wizard(which I assumed was totally impossible prior to finding out you can have NI simulacrums) so can somebody please tell me how the potentially infinite size simulacrum army is created?

[Ravens_cry]

Well, you have the Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) spell and ways to boost caster level . . rather high. Oh, and you can make a simulacrum of yourself, which, once you're at a certain level, can also cast simulacrum and also use the same tricks to boost their caster level. I don't know the whole details, but yes, it is possible.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, there's no limit to how many Simulacra you can create, as long as you have the money for them.

Although you'd have to be into the epic levels in order to create a Simulacrum of yourself who can still cast 7th-level spells, since the copy has half the levels and HD of the original. That restriction is built into the spell, regardless of any Caster Level shenanigans that may be involved (which only determines which creatures can be copied).

[Grendus]

Simulacrae are more expensive than undead (24x more expensive, in fact, if you count 1 exp as 5 gp) but have some ridiculous abuses. For example, you can stack templates that don't add HD at will, so instead of making a simulacrum of an ogre, make a simulacrum of a dark mineral warrior dragonborn ogre and bask in the massive stat bonuses. You can also control as many as you want, they're intelligent, and they gain the abilities of their simulated creature which can lead to some seriously powerful simulacrae.

Of course, it's still inefficient. There are easier ways to take over a kingdom if you want one, from charming the king and his court to threatening them with a few Apocalypse from the Sky or Locate City nukes. But if you have access to infinite exp and gold (which would be reasonable if you were a quiet wizardly type), you could craft an infinite army.

[Gullintanni]

When I posted an earler thread trying to prove wizards have no mechanical way to take over the world while clerics do(Undead Army) somebody mentioned that a wizard can have more or less have a potentially infinite amount simulacrum Balors, Solars ect... just like the cleric can have a potentially infinite amount of undead(Spawn tricks and Animate Dread Warrior spellstitching). However, I have no idea how this is done but yet REALLY want to make a minionmaster wizard(which I assumed was totally impossible prior to finding out you can have NI simulacrums) so can somebody please tell me how the potentially infinite size simulacrum army is created?

Hehe...technically speaking, Clerics can do this too. You don't get access nearly as early, but Miracle can duplicate Simulacrum.

[JaronK]

It's best to get Simulacrum as a Sp ability so you can do it as a standard action and it costs nothing. Runesmith (RoS) will let you do this. It'll also let you cast Animate Dread Warrior (UE) as a spell like ability, if you want an endless undead army too. In fact, I'd argue that Runesmith is probably the best "minion master" PrC for arcanists.

JaronK

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but I generally hate playing dwarves and runesmith is dwarf only. I suppose I could try and get a houserule to make it non-dwarf only, though I am not sure how plausible that is. I have done it with shadowcraft mage(also hate gnomes) so it could be possible.

Also, if a houserule is out of the question are there any other ways to get spells as SLAs? Archmage, perhaps? Also, what is the best way, barring chameleon and uber cheese, to raise your CL for the making of more minions?

[Logalmier]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130249

[Big Fau]

Planar Binding a Mirror Mephit, who get it for free.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I suppose, though I would rather like a PrC that can give it to me as appose to having to rely on a Planar-binded monstrosity.

[FMArthur]

Armies are for traditionalists. A very well-played fullcaster or, more easily, one of the mega-cheestastic fullcaster prestige classes, can employ Scry-and-die tactics to initiate a coup of leadership, issue clear commands, and kill all who disobey (the 'commands' part is integral to make underlings actually understand what you're doing and what they can do to not be killed).

Armies are just conventional tools to get yourself all the way to the throne room to dispose of rulers. Wizards can just go to the throne room.

Really, if you're going to cheese your way into altering the entire campaign world with armies of undead, why not just be an IotSV, or an Incantatrix, or even a Beholder Mage, and skip the agonizing formality of having to command all that undead?

[Ravens_cry]

Well. . .even a wizard can not constantly be everywhere at once, generally speaking. Armies that you don't have to command every movement of can hold territory better then a single wizard running themselves ragged scrying on everything.

[KillianHawkeye]

For example, you can stack templates that don't add HD at will, so instead of making a simulacrum of an ogre, make a simulacrum of a dark mineral warrior dragonborn ogre and bask in the massive stat bonuses.

Sure, if you can find a Dark MineralWarrior Dragonborn Ogre to make a copy of (or you have a sucker DM who lets you eschew the material components for it). :smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

Planar Binding a Mirror Mephit, who get it for free.

Better yet, get a Mirror Mephit for a familiar, using Planar Familiar. Then you don't have to worry about double crosses. Achievable at level 7. They get Simulacrum as a CL8 SLA. They can make a Simulacrum of an Efreet, which can use all three wishes to make simulacrums of efreeti....

[Johel]

Well. . .even a wizard can not constantly be everywhere at once, generally speaking. Armies that you don't have to command every movement of can hold territory better then a single wizard running themselves ragged scrying on everything.

Then there's the whole business on "-why would the wizard care ?"

Past 10th level, if he wants something, he can get it.
He doesn't need to govern. He doesn't even need to hold the territory.
He just IS and RULES from his tower.
Populations are ruled by petty kings who are both popular with their subjects and efficient in providing the wizard with what he wants.

He needs some exotic food ?
*Teleport in the throne room of King X*
"-Hi... Here's the grocery list. To deliver at the usual place every seven days.
Fail me and the city die. Bye"
*Teleport out*

He needs rare spell components ?
*Teleport in the throne room of King Y*
"-Hi... Say, about that orc invasion I stopped last month... Maybe it's time you pay me back.
Here's the list. Get **** done, I don't care how.
Usual place. You have a month.
Fail me and the city die. Bye"
*Teleport out*

He needs the tower's sewage to be cleaned ?
*Teleport in the throne room of King Z*
"-Hi... Long time not seen.
Here is the list.
I need this done asap so tomorrow morning would be good.
Fail me and the city die. Bye"
*Teleport out*

He want to bone the princess ?
*Teleport in the throne room of King A*
"-Hi... My god, what an angel you have here.
Mind if I... hum... borrow her for the night.
I'll bring her back... or not.
Bye."
*Teleport out*

He needs gold... just gold ?
*Teleport in the throne room of King B*
"-Hi... It's that time of the month, already.
Time to **** gold or bleed.
Usual place. Tomorrow.
Bye."
*Teleport out*

If he is really lazy, he can use a Sending or Whispering Wind.
Or even have the Kings send somebody EVERY DAY to his tower just to check if he needs desires something.

[The Glyphstone]

Or get one Simulacrum of a Solar or Efreet or something, and have it spam its Wish SLA to imitate Simulacrum for you.

[Runestar]

Sure, if you can find a Dark MineralWarrior Dragonborn Ogre to make a copy of (or you have a sucker DM who lets you eschew the material components for it). :smallbiggrin:

Hypothetically, would such an item not already be found in your spell component pouch, since it does not have a gp value? :smalltongue:

[Maho-Tsukai]

How can a wizard take over a kingdom without an army or charm/domination? I don't see how simply being powerful would allow that to happen. Last time I checked, you would have to pass an intimidate check to bully kingdoms into doing what you want and wizards don't use charisma for anything and don't have intimidate as a class skill. Thus, trying to bully kingdoms into doing what you would want would not work as the wizard is NOT going to pass a skill check for a non-class skill based off a stat he dose not use at all. So I fail to see how bullying kingdoms with your awesome power would result in anything but a world full of rubble as no king would do what you want(as you would never pass the intimidate check) and as a result you would end up having to nuke every kingdom you tried to bully. I'd rather not be the king of rubble, thank you.

[The Glyphstone]

How can a wizard take over a kingdom without an army or charm/domination? I don't see how simply being powerful would allow you to pass the intimidate check needed to rule by fear, and last time I checked wizards don't use charisma and don't have intimidate as a class skill. Thus, trying to bully kingdoms into doing what you would want would not work as the wizard is NOT going to pass a skill check for a non-class skill based off a stat he dose not use at all. So I fail to see how bullying kingdoms with your awesome power would result in anything but a world full of rubble as no king would do what you want(as you would never pass the intimidate check) and as a result you'd end up nuking every kingdom you tried that on and failed.(Which would be the vast bulk of them.) I'd rather not be the king of rubble, thank you.


I'd imagine a pretty hefty circumstance bonus after the first two or three kingdoms got nuked and your reputation started to spread.

[Maho-Tsukai]

That is totally out of your control, though. You can't get a massive circumstantial bonus no matter what you do. ONLY the DM can give it to you. It's not something you have any control over or say on. However, a Simulacrum army, charm/domination and undead legions are all things you can control and are all obtainable without the DM having to hand it to you. Wizards can't do the legion of undead thing, thats for Clerics and Dread Necros. Charm/Dominating takes far more effort then it's worth, has MASSIVE potential risks and unless you wait until you get 9ths and thus mind rape you would pretty much be required to have ranks in social skills to keep your guise/shadow leader gig going and I already discussed how wizards lack any proper social skills. So out of the three the Simulacrum army seems like the best option to me, hence why I asked how it could be done and I seemed to have gotten my answer. Now the only thing I need is a non-dwarf only PrC that can get me the spell as an SLA and I am set.

[The Glyphstone]

Dweomerkeeper lets you turn your spells into Supernatural abilities.

You could always take Stoneblessed 3, if you're really desperate. It'll cost you 3 casting levels, but it means you can qualify for Dwarf-only PrCs without being a Dwarf.

[Maho-Tsukai]

But supernatural abilities =/= SLAs. I am specifically looking for SLAs as they avoid the massive costs of the spell, which is the main reason I am looking to get the spell as an SLA.

[KillianHawkeye]

Hypothetically, would such an item not already be found in your spell component pouch, since it does not have a gp value? :smalltongue:

Only if you're sleeping with the DM. :smallwink:

But seriously, minor body parts of extremely rare creatures and tuning forks keyed to particular planes are the only two "no value" material components that you shouldn't be able to just have IMO.

[The Glyphstone]

But supernatural abilities =/= SLAs. I am specifically looking for SLAs as they avoid the massive costs of the spell, which is the main reason I am looking to get the spell as an SLA.

Supernatural abilities are better than SLA's.:smallconfused: They don't require material components or XP expenditures either (and ignore SR, irrelevant in this case).

[Jack_Simth]

When I posted an earler thread trying to prove wizards have no mechanical way to take over the world while clerics do(Undead Army) somebody mentioned that a wizard can have more or less have a potentially infinite amount simulacrum Balors, Solars ect... just like the cleric can have a potentially infinite amount of undead(Spawn tricks and Animate Dread Warrior spellstitching). However, I have no idea how this is done but yet REALLY want to make a minionmaster wizard(which I assumed was totally impossible prior to finding out you can have NI simulacrums) so can somebody please tell me how the potentially infinite size simulacrum army is created?
Well, an infinite Simulacrum army is much harder than an infinite undead army, because it requires expensive materials and XP (undead usually only require 25 or 50 gp per hit die to create, plus a corpse, and there's ways around that, such as using Energy Drain on a commoner to get a wight, then Commanding the Wight, then having the Wight murder more commoners ... making him the Wight General). So in order to make your army neigh-infinite (or rather, capped in number only by time), you need to get rid of those costs. There are ways to do this. Iron is a trade good, usable as cash - Wall of Iron is an Instant spell that makes normal, mundane iron. That can cover the gp costs if you can find a good source for large quantities of ruby dust. Ambrosia (Book of Exalted Deeds) and Liquid Pain (Book of Vile Darkness) can be used to cover the XP costs (eventually). Simpler is to use a build which bypasses them: the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell class feature, for instance.

But yes, you can do the uncapped Simulacrum army per 3.5 RAW, yes.


Supernatural abilities are better than SLA's.:smallconfused: They don't require material components or XP expenditures either (and ignore SR, irrelevant in this case).
Neither do arbitrary Spell-Like Abilities. The main differences between a Supernatural ability and a Spell-Like ability are:
Concentration checks (to avoid provoking, to get disrupted during casting - Su doesn't have them, Sp does)
SR (Su doesn't need to check it, Sp does)
Casting Time (Su is 1 std action unless otherwise noted, Sp is as the spell unless otherwise noted)
Dispelling (Su can't be Dispelled, Sp can)
Item Crafting (Su can't be used, Sp can)
Save DC (Su is 10+1/2 HD + Ability mod; Sp is 10 + Spell Level + Ability Mod)

Neither of them require M, F, V, S, DF, or XP components by default.

However, various sources of Sp or Su abilities change this - the Warlock, for instance, still as S components on the spell-like abilities, while the Archmage's Spell-like ability changes M costs for XP costs (and still requires the base XP cost).

(Source for info on Spell-Like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities))

[TehLivingDeath]

Well, an infinite Simulacrum army is much harder than an infinite undead army, because it requires expensive materials and XP (undead usually only require 25 or 50 gp per hit die to create, plus a corpse, and there's ways around that, such as using Energy Drain on a commoner to get a wight, then Commanding the Wight, then having the Wight murder more commoners ... making him the Wight General). So in order to make your army neigh-infinite (or rather, capped in number only by time), you need to get rid of those costs. There are ways to do this. Iron is a trade good, usable as cash - Wall of Iron is an Instant spell that makes normal, mundane iron. That can cover the gp costs if you can find a good source for large quantities of ruby dust. Ambrosia (Book of Exalted Deeds) and Liquid Pain (Book of Vile Darkness) can be used to cover the XP costs (eventually). Simpler is to use a build which bypasses them: the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell class feature, for instance.


If someone wants to break the settings economy using magic, Flesh to Salt/Wall of Salt is probably the best option besides Major Creation (as an SLA) spamming.

[Jack_Simth]

If someone wants to break the settings economy using magic, Flesh to Salt/Wall of Salt is probably the best option besides Major Creation (as an SLA) spamming.
Major Creation is neither Instant nor Permanent. Yes, Wall of Salt is probably one of the faster ways to break the economy. The main advantage of Wall of Iron being that it's Core, and likely an accepted spell at any gaming table, while Sandstorm is a little less common.

[The Glyphstone]

Neither do arbitrary Spell-Like Abilities. The main differences between a Supernatural ability and a Spell-Like ability are:
Concentration checks (to avoid provoking, to get disrupted during casting - Su doesn't have them, Sp does)
SR (Su doesn't need to check it, Sp does)
Casting Time (Su is 1 std action unless otherwise noted, Sp is as the spell unless otherwise noted)
Dispelling (Su can't be Dispelled, Sp can)
Item Crafting (Su can't be used, Sp can)
Save DC (Su is 10+1/2 HD + Ability mod; Sp is 10 + Spell Level + Ability Mod)

Neither of them require M, F, V, S, DF, or XP components by default.

However, various sources of Sp or Su abilities change this - the Warlock, for instance, still as S components on the spell-like abilities, while the Archmage's Spell-like ability changes M costs for XP costs (and still requires the base XP cost).

(Source for info on Spell-Like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities))

Which...is exactly what I said. He wanted a PrC that got Simulacrum as a SLA, because of the no M or XP costs. I pointed out that Dweomerkeeper can get it as a SU, which is all the benefits of a SLA and more, as you enumerated above.

[dextercorvia]

Well, an infinite Simulacrum army is much harder than an infinite undead army, because it requires expensive materials and XP (undead usually only require 25 or 50 gp per hit die to create, plus a corpse, and there's ways around that, such as using Energy Drain on a commoner to get a wight, then Commanding the Wight, then having the Wight murder more commoners ... making him the Wight General). So in order to make your army neigh-infinite (or rather, capped in number only by time), you need to get rid of those costs. There are ways to do this. Iron is a trade good, usable as cash - Wall of Iron is an Instant spell that makes normal, mundane iron. That can cover the gp costs if you can find a good source for large quantities of ruby dust. Ambrosia (Book of Exalted Deeds) and Liquid Pain (Book of Vile Darkness) can be used to cover the XP costs (eventually). Simpler is to use a build which bypasses them: the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell class feature, for instance.

As I said earlier, the earliest you can bypass them, without pure WBLmancy, is ECL7 with a Mirror Mephit as a planar familiar. To do it earlier than that is going to require selling your spellbook, or starting as a paladin about to fall hard.

[TehLivingDeath]

Major Creation is neither Instant nor Permanent. Yes, Wall of Salt is probably one of the faster ways to break the economy. The main advantage of Wall of Iron being that it's Core, and likely an accepted spell at any gaming table, while Sandstorm is a little less common.

Sorry, I meant to say True Creation.

If a DM is willing to let the wizard break the game like that, I don't think he's going to be picky about what books are allowed. I get your point about availability though.

[Johel]

Major Creation is neither Instant nor Permanent. Yes, Wall of Salt is probably one of the faster ways to break the economy. The main advantage of Wall of Iron being that it's Core, and likely an accepted spell at any gaming table, while Sandstorm is a little less common.

While not permanent, it's still does the job of disturbing the economy by gathering gold in the hands of a single person (the wizard) while letting no consumable goods in the hands of anyone.

Density of iron = 7870 kg/m³ = 490 pounds per cubic foot
1 pound of iron = 1 sp
Hence 4.900 sp per casting at CL 10.
490 gp

You make in a few hours of bargaining enough money to have a small horde of servants at your side for the next 3 months.
Meanwhile, a few Blacksmiths are bashing their heads against the wall, screaming "-Not Again !!".

[Jack_Simth]

Sorry, I meant to say True Creation.

That one has the slight issue of an accompanying XP cost....


If a DM is willing to let the wizard break the game like that, I don't think he's going to be picky about what books are allowed. I get your point about availability though.There is that.


Which...is exactly what I said. He wanted a PrC that got Simulacrum as a SLA, because of the no M or XP costs. I pointed out that Dweomerkeeper can get it as a SU, which is all the benefits of a SLA and more, as you enumerated above.

Ah, looks like I missed the "Either" first time through - sorry about that.

[Darrin]

Major Creation is neither Instant nor Permanent.

Major creation of vegetable matter via a djinn is permanent. Start with a little saffron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10732292&postcount=63) or black lotus extract (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10040483&postcount=5), and you should be able to obliterate the local economy fairly quickly.

[Feytalist]

This seems to be going slightly off-topic. There has been many suggestions on how to take over a nation as a single PC, ranging from the silly to the plausible. However, it seems the OP simply wants lots and lots of minions.

Constructs can work?

[dextercorvia]

That's true. Animate Objects and Supernatural Permanency would create several minions per day.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah but animated objects are kinda a step down from undead since said objects can only be small....so yeah, not quite a world conquering army there. If it permitted larger objects then sure....but an army of tiny stuff is not going to do the trick when it comes to world domination.

Is there any creature that can create duplicates of itself? If so you could find a way to make it fanatically loyal to you(Mind Rape?) and then proceed to use the Clone spell to make an infinite army....Madara's Zetsus, anybody?

[dextercorvia]

Yeah but animated objects are kinda a step down from undead since said objects can only be small....so yeah, not quite a world conquering army there. If it permitted larger objects then sure....but an army of tiny stuff is not going to do the trick when it comes to world domination.

The spell text would like to have a word with you.


You may animate one Small or smaller object or an equivalent number of larger objects per caster level. A Medium object counts as two Small or smaller objects, a Large object as four, a Huge object as eight, a Gargantuan object as sixteen, and a Colossal object as thirty-two.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, but could I match the size of the cleric's undead army with that trick? I am looking for quantity more so then quality. It is more important that I have lots of mooks then it is that those mooks are super powerful. Would such a method feasibly be able to gain me an army the same size a cleric could produce via necromancy?
Speed vs. Maximum Size vs. reliability.

If you've got a way to bypass GP / XP costs....
1) A straightforward Cleric using Animate Dead and Rebuking can control an army of Cleric Level * 5 hit dice (Cleric level * 4 for Animate Dead, Cleric Level again for Rebuking).
2) A straightforward Cleric chaining spawning undead (Wights, Wraiths, Spectres, Shadows) can have an arbitrarily large army, but it's a very fragile army - there's a small number of generals, each of which controls some number of colnols, each of which controls some number of lieutenants, and so on, all based on chains of murder. However, it's a direct chain of command and has no provision for inheritance. If one of the generals dies, each of the colnols is free... but the lieutenants (and everyone beneath them) are beholden to their colnols, not to you anymore. It can be big, but it is fragile - especially as, by default, your generals don't get any stronger for having created spawn. And, of course, someone else could steal your entire army by Commanding your generals.
3) If you can bypass the costs on Permanency, though (like with Supernatural Spell, 1/day), you can have an arbitrarily large number of Animated Objects (the only limit is per casting), and they're all directly under your control (no spawn chains). It's a lot slower, though, as most methods of bypassing XP costs are per-day limited, and you need two moderate-level spells to do it anyway (animate objects and permanency - usually 6th and 5th - vs. Animate Dead at 3rd [for a Cleric]). Other constructs are similar, but those are very expensive, and can't usually be made with a simple spell (Beget Bogun notwithstanding).

[Maho-Tsukai]

Ok, I missed that part of the spell. If you can go larger then small, then that idea is solid. All you would need is, well, the the objects. I wonder, is there a way you could craft mundane armor using walls of iron and other such spells to make it so you don't have to shell out a crapload of gold to make your soldiers? If so then could you just make mundane soldiers but then use supernatural permanency to trick them out so you don't have to spend a fortune on items to animate? I mean, an army of animated armor with permanent symbol of X spells and prismatic spheres would be downright deadly against most rank and file soldiers. True, enemy casters can slaughter your forces but you can take them down yourself or use leadership-gained caster minions to deal with them.

[dextercorvia]

Ok, I missed that part of the spell. If you can go larger then small, then that idea is solid. All you would need is, well, the the objects. I wonder, is there a way you could craft mundane armor using walls of iron and other such spells to make it so you don't have to shell out a crapload of gold and XP to make your soldiers? If so then could you just make mundane soldiers but then use supernatural permanency to trick them out so you don't have to spend a fortune on items to animate? I mean, an army of animated armor with permanent symbol of X spells and prismatic spheres would be downright deadly against most rank and file soldiers. True, enemy casters can slaughter your forces but you can take them down yourself or use leadership-gained caster minions to deal with them.

Take a look at the Monster description for Animate Object. They come in all kinds of customizabilty. Flyers, Swimmers, Rollers. They don't need to be shaped like robots. Battering rams on wheels, Flying Tapestries, whatever. Just have your minions crush a village, and then animate the carts, stoves, tables...

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, although armor is just more stylish but I am a wizard and am fail at making minions, so I take what I can get I guess?

Though in all honesty I wish there was a way to use clone to make an army...or at least something slightly more "evil-feeling" Perhaps invoke spell research to create a spell that can allow me to grow monsters of some kind provided I have the proper DNA?

[The Glyphstone]

DNA? What is this DNA you speak of? Everyone knows that all matter is composed of the four elements, and new creatures come from the gods breathing a spark of their power into lifeless clay.

[Maho-Tsukai]

That depends on the setting and is not D&D canon, though I suppose you could make the same argument for DNA...However, you get the basic idea. If all else fails, just invoke spell research....and it seems like my only option at the moment if I want to match the Necro Cleric in the army department on both numbers, power and style.

[dextercorvia]

If you make them out of carved stone, you can use stone of flesh on them.

[Qwertystop]

You could get a job as an architect, sneakily put wheels hidden in the base of the king's castle during renovations, and enormous lances in the walls, then Animate it afterward. Now the King's Castle is holding the royalty hostage while attacking people.


Why couldn't a Wizard Create Undead for wights, Command them, and have them make more, same way a Cleric does?

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, and a wizard can produce stone add-nausiam(wall of stone ect..). Is their a craft skill for stone-carving? Also, would using stone to flesh on, say, a statue of a dragon, allow it to gain draconic powers? The rules of stone to flesh say that it would become a corpse normally. However, if the corpse is an animated object would it be able to use at the least non-spellcasting/spell-like(as I assume spellcasting and similar powers would require an actual mind) flight, natural weapons ect.. of what it was a statue of?

[The Glyphstone]

If you make them out of carved stone, you can use stone of flesh on them.

At best, that creates a corpse, though. StF can't create life, only restore it to reverse FtS.


As for stone animated objects, they don't gain any special qualities based on what they're designed to look like, only their physical form. A statue would only be able to punch/otherwise attack people, it couldn't breathe fire or stuff.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but if it's already animated would it cease to be animated once you cast stone to flesh or would the permanent animate object override that due to it already being in effect? Likewise, if it would remain animated after stone to flesh was cast would it gain all the biological/non spell-esc abilities of the creature?

[The Glyphstone]

Corpses are technically objects, so while Animate Objects would persist, the only effect would be you losing its innate hardness. It would not gain anything not listed in the Animated Objects monster description.

It's a fun trick to pull on players, using Animate Object on corpses and watching them frantically burn Turn Undead attempts to no avail.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, so if I want special abilities on my soldiers I will be forced to use permanent buffs?(Symbol of X spells, prismatic sphere, assorted permanen-ced buffs ect..) I suppose with wall of stone and simmilar spells plus rank in craft(stone-carving) you could make an army of statues covered in symbol of X spells and more buffs then you can shake a stick at, all made permanent with supernatural permanency.

[dextercorvia]

At best, that creates a corpse, though. StF can't create life, only restore it to reverse FtS.


As for stone animated objects, they don't gain any special qualities based on what they're designed to look like, only their physical form. A statue would only be able to punch/otherwise attack people, it couldn't breathe fire or stuff.

I was referring to using it on the Animated Objects, in order to make them more gruesome.

@OP: You might be able to do something with grafts.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but I doubt grafts can equal the abilities many undead possess, or am I wrong?

[The Glyphstone]

Pretty much. It's horribly time-consuming, and your army will be very fragile if something gets past their Symbol barrage - animated objects have very little HP due to being Constructs, and they're not eligible for most buff spells you could cast on them.

But yes, you can have an army of Faux-Zombies covered from head to toe in Symbol of X spells.

You can't attach grafts to dead creatures, I believe. They need a living host. May be wrong on this.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Then do you have an easier alternative for the wizard who wants to take over the world as far as army building goes? If this idea dose not provide a strong enough army then what would? And don't say dominate person the king, as I already mentioned in many threads how the lack of social skills combined with the blatantly noticeable effects of domination and how easy it is to counter all make it impossible to pull off until you get Mind Rape, which is a 9th.

[Psyren]

Yeah, but I generally hate playing dwarves and runesmith is dwarf only. I suppose I could try and get a houserule to make it non-dwarf only, though I am not sure how plausible that is.

Actually, the adaptation (RoS pg. 119) does exactly that. It recommends making the entry requirements steeper for non-dwarves though.

[Feytalist]

It's a fun trick to pull on players, using Animate Object on corpses and watching them frantically burn Turn Undead attempts to no avail.

I can't believe I've never thought of this before.

I imagine an "animated" corpse would have the same stats as any other medium-sized animated object, yes?

[deuxhero]

And here I thought Simulacrum was just for narcissists...

[The Glyphstone]

Then do you have an easier alternative for the wizard who wants to take over the world as far as army building goes? If this idea dose not provide a strong enough army then what would? And don't say dominate person the king, as I already mentioned in many threads how the lack of social skills combined with the blatantly noticeable effects of domination and how easy it is to counter all make it impossible to pull off until you get Mind Rape, which is a 9th.

What happened to just spamming Simulacrum via Supernatural Spell? It'd be fairly easy to get a CL of 25, at which point you can churn out Simulacrumed leShay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/leshay.htm)s to your heart's content (or any other monster of 50HD or less).


I can't believe I've never thought of this before.

I imagine an "animated" corpse would have the same stats as any other medium-sized animated object, yes?
Sadly, yes.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Too bad. Then supernatural Simulacrum it is! It seems like the easiest method though sadly can't be done as soon as a cleric can obtain his undead minions. Maybe just use leadership to get cleric minions to make their own undead hoards for you?

[Qwertystop]

I still don't see why Create Undead can't be used by a Wizard to get a Mohrg, command the Mohrg, then have the Mohrg make zombies. Isn't that pretty much the same as the typical Cleric method, except clerics use Rebuke Undead instead of the Control Undead spell?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Gah, computer messed up. Please delete.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but rebuking is > Command Undead as that spell has a duration and allows saves if the undead is intelligent...and last time I checked, all the spawn-makers ARE intelligent. Likewise, Command Undead on intelligent undead forces you to make a charisma check to get said undead to do anything for you while rebuking flat out makes them your slave, no questions asked. So yeah, without rebuke, the wizard is not getting his undead legion easily. End of story. There IS a feat that can allow a wizard to use mind-effecting spells on intelligent undead, so with that you COULD use dominate person instead of command undead which while it still allows a save it at the least would not force you to make a charisma check and make it your slave. The Cleric still can do it faster and better, though.

[JaronK]

Casting Time (Su is 1 std action unless otherwise noted, Sp is as the spell unless otherwise noted)

As per the Monster Manual and Rules Compendium (the primary sources), Sp abilities are standard actions unless the spell is shorter, in which case the Sp is the same as the spell, or unless the Sp ability explicitly takes longer. Note that this disagrees with the SRD (and, IIRC, the PHB).

Just putting that out there.

JaronK

[anubistheta]

Isn't Ice Assassin from Frostburn an even better and cheaper way of doing this?

The clone would be created at the same level as you and while it would want to kill you, it is "under your absolute command" So you could command it to not kill you, or just Mindrape it. And a caster level above 25 makes them immune to break enchantment.

The really great things is that Ice Assassin allows any spells you cast on your self to benefit the Ice Assassin as well. This could include the spell Ice Assassin. =)

Thus, you have exponential growth of high level wizards. In 7 days, 1 million wizards under your absolute command. :smallbiggrin: That is only if the original wizard is casting.

In theory, it could go even faster. Let each Ice Assassin cast Ice Assassin on you as well in parallel. In 2 days, that should be 4,294,967,296 wizards all under your absolute command. And it should be able to produce 1.84*10^19 wizards in total .

[Jack_Simth]

Isn't Ice Assassin from Frostburn an even better and cheaper way of doing this? Better? Mostly. Cheaper? Not for most critters.

The big advantage of Ice Assassin is the share spells bit, and the full power bit (the explosive death and the free cold subtype are handy, but not really all that grand, and sometimes a liability).

The downside, though, is that Ice Assassin has a flat XP and materials cost (5,000 xp, 20,000 gp in powdered diamond), where simulacrum has a cost of 100 xp per HD of the critter created (minimum 1,000 xp), and 100 gp per HD of the critter created. So unless the simulacrum you're making will have in excess of 50 hit dice, Simulacrum strictly not more expensive than Ice Assassin.

Edit: Oh yes, and while Simulacrum merely does what you want, an Ice Assassin has "an all-consuming need to slay the original". Sure it still remains under your "absolute command", but ... ah... how confident are you in your ability to word a command such that it doesn't find a way to kill you anyway? Making an Ice Assassin of yourself just... doesn't strike me as a good idea.

[dextercorvia]

And, if your entire army are Ice Assassins of each other, or you--created by someone in your army with an "all-consuming need to slay" you, I wonder how long you can hold that together.

[OracleofSilence]

Minion master wizard = chain binding.

its easy, its affordable, and if done right, its free.

was i seriously the first to answer that?:smallmad:

[Analytica]

Don't build an army with Simulacrum. Build a score of miniboss clones of yourself with Simulacrum. Each of them then animates dead up to their cap. Additionally, they each lead their respective units, so the mindless nature of your undead have less impact.

[Zomg Zombies]

Well, first off I, personally, would go for undead army; don't much go for the theory 'clerics make better armies than wizards' course, I just said screw it and went c/w/dn and make a BIG army;

But, next I'd go for an artificer and a construct army. Between craft construct, craft effigy, homunculus (improved of course), and grafts, not to mention the simple permanent animate objects, there's just a wide variety of fun, fun stuff. But this will cost enormous amounts in cash and XP, you say. If you're at least lvl 5, you've picked up some crafting efficacy feat, and your DM gives you time, and you're still broke... you're not doing something right.

Eg: craft up some low lvl magic items, using whatever efficiency feat you use, sell them off, use the profits to buy a larger magic item, reclaim it's essence, make up more low level stuff efficiently, rinse and repeat, eventually you can throw around large amounts of cash. Especially if you make a dedicated wright, even more especially if you use 'life to the inanimate' feat from eldritch might iii (sword and sorcery) to make your dedicated wright a lvl 5 artificer in its own right, and then you can start your very own crafting assembly line.

[Clistenes]

Well, it's a Tippy-like Wish-chaining thing, but:

1.-Use Wish to create a Scroll of Simulacrum of a 20 HD Advanced Efreet. The Simulacrum Efreet will have 10 HD and all the powers of a regular Efreet. If you are too low level to cast Wish, you will have to seek or summon a 20 HD Efreet and get his nails, hair or whatever for a Simulacrum spell.

2.-Ask the Simulacrum Efreet to create three more scrolls of Simulacrum Efreet.

3.-Repeat (2) until you have 1000 or more Efreets.

4.-Ask the 1000 Simulacrum Efreets to create Simulacrum scrolls of the most powerful monster you know every day for a week.

And bingo! you have an army of 21000 powerful monsters.

Alternatively, you can ask the Simulacrum Efreets to create Manuals of Stone Colossus instead.

By the way, a wizard can use the Create Greater Undead and Song of the Dead-Dominate spells to create and control a single Shadow, Wraith, Spectre, Crypt Chanter, Bane Wraith, Dread Wraith, Wight, Forsaken Shell, Slaughter Wight, Mohrg or Visage, order it to turn into spawn a bunch of peasants and all the new undead will obey the first undead.

You you just have to be sure to recast Song of the Dead-Dominate periodically on the first undead.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Turn Unthread!