Alter Self [Fey]

[Bard for Kicks]

Hi! So, I'm playing a Gloura bard and I thought this would be a great opportunity to take advantage of Alter Self. Any good ideas on a fey of 5HD or less with high AC? :smallsmile:

[Talya]

Hi! So, I'm playing a Gloura bard and I thought this would be a great opportunity to take advantage of Alter Self. Any good ideas on a fey of 5HD or less with high AC? :smallsmile:


Shamelessly copied from an old locked giantitp thread:



Wendigo. Medium size, fly 120' (perfect). Fiend Folio p. 186.

Bog Imp. Small size, burrow 60', swim 30'. Best burrow speed you can get with alter self. Also +4 racial bonus on saves vs mind effects, +2 racial bonus on listen, search and spot, and +8 racial bonus on swim checks. Heroes of Horror p. 142.

Crystal Cat. Large size, speed 40', +10 natural armor, 2 claws + bite. Not quite a dwarven ancestor, but not too shabby. Dragon #304 p. 59.

Hkum Yeng Nat. Medium size, fly 30', +9 natural armor, 2 claws. Maybe not as good as the crystal cat, but it has flight and is from a somewhat more official source. Oriental Adventures, p. 176.

Splinterwaif. Small size, climb 50', +10 racial bonus on hide checks, and +8 racial bonus on climb checks. One of the best climbers in the game. MM3 p. 164.

Spriggan. Small size, but it has an enlarged form that is large size with 10' of reach. This is a supernatural ability that you wouldn't get with alter self, but check if your DM will let you use the larger form. If not... well, they have a +4 racial bonus to climb, disable device, move silently, open lock, and sleight of hand. Fiend Folio p. 162.

Vodyanoi. Medium size, swim 60'. +8 racial bonus on hide, move silently, and swim. Also +4 natural armor. The best fey swimmer. Frostburn p. 160.

[Bard for Kicks]

Yeah I read that thread too but I don't really care about fly/swim/burrow. I just need something with really high AC...so I was wondering if +9 AC was the highest that fey could get at 5HD...

[Talya]

Yeah I read that thread too but I don't really care about fly/swim/burrow. I just need something with really high AC...so I was wondering if +9 AC was the highest that fey could get at 5HD...

Well, the crystal cat had +10...although it's large sized, so the effective AC bonus is still +9.

It's better than humanoids usually get (with Tren or Crucians being considered great at +8.)

[Bard for Kicks]

Crystal Cat would give +9...so, with this AC bonus from Alter Self, I still get to keep Unearthly Grace. Right? Cuz its a special quality? :smallsmile:

[faceroll]

Dude, you're a gloura. You already come with super high AC- +10 dex from race and charisma to AC (with another +6 cha from race). That's +8 to AC from racials alone. Do you need actual levels in monk to pick up ascetic mage? Cause a monk's belt and that feat would get you charisma to AC, again.

[ImperatorK]

so, with this AC bonus from Alter Self, I still get to keep Unearthly Grace. Right? Cuz its a special quality?
No, you lose it because it's a special quality not derived from class levels.

[Ernir]

No, you lose it because it's a special quality not derived from class levels.

Huh? :smallconfused:


You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

[Bard for Kicks]

....So...alter self....not very useful for AC. darn.
If I retain my ability scores after alter self, wouldn't my +10 dex added to natural armor of the Crystal Cat be higher than the bonus Unearthly Grace though? (at least, until i get $$$ for cloak of cha)...
Wait. I'm confused too....I thought i could keep U.G.

[Talya]

Dude, you're a gloura. You already come with super high AC- +10 dex from race and charisma to AC (with another +6 cha from race). That's +8 to AC from racials alone. Do you need actual levels in monk to pick up ascetic mage? Cause a monk's belt and that feat would get you charisma to AC, again.


No Ascetic Mage. Take 2 levels of battledancer. Still a 2 level dip, but it's charisma to AC from the beginning, saves taking a feat.

[ImperatorK]

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
:smallannoyed:

[faceroll]

....So...alter self....not very useful for AC. darn.
If I retain my ability scores after alter self, wouldn't my +10 dex added to natural armor of the Crystal Cat be higher than the bonus Unearthly Grace though? (at least, until i get $$$ for cloak of cha)...
Wait. I'm confused too....I thought i could keep U.G.

Oh yeah, you do keep your ability scores.

Unearthly Grace is probably derived from looking so beautiful. Altering yourself into a Jermalaine or some ugly little fey is probably not going to have the same effect.

[TroubleBrewing]

Originally Posted by Alter Self
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

That refers to what you are turning into. You don't GAIN any of those things from the new critter, but nowhere does it state that if you have anything of that nature that you LOSE it.

[ImperatorK]

Argh, wrong quote (I even had it right but I changed it :smallredface:).

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
Now we have to figure out if UG is extraordinary or requires a body part.

[Bard for Kicks]

Now we have to figure out if UG is extraordinary or requires a body part.

I dont think it requires a body part...nowhere does the book say that a Gloura needs a specific body part to maintain UG. Also...I don't really think its derived from being pretty (being pretty and charismatic doesn't make you better at defense...) Its speeccciiaaaalll (thus boosting AC)...right? plzplzplzplz :smalleek:

[ImperatorK]

Check Nymph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nymph.htm). Her statblock has the answer. Which means that I was wrong. Lol, sorry for confusion.

[Talya]

Huh...tell me if I'm seeing this wrong...


Gloura with Level Adjustment buyoff...


Don't bother with a base class at all:
Gloura (7 racial hit dice)/Heartfire Fanner 3/Sublime Chord 10.
Additional Feats: Chaos Music

This nets you:
10th level bardic casting
10th level sublime chord casting
Bardic music as approximately a 17th level bard
All of a Gloura's racial abilities

These may very well be the best racial hit dice one can ever take.

[Bard for Kicks]

Huh...tell me if I'm seeing this wrong...


Gloura with Level Adjustment buyoff...


Don't bother with a base class at all:
Gloura (7 racial hit dice)/Heartfire Fanner 3/Sublime Chord 10.
Additional Feats: Chaos Music

This nets you:
10th level bardic casting
10th level sublime chord casting
Bardic music as approximately a 17th level bard
All of a Gloura's racial abilities

These may very well be the best racial hit dice one can ever take.

GEHHHHH! WOW...
GEHHHH! ...that build looks amazing!!! Um, by the way where is Heartfire Fanner from? I can't find it anywhere...And also, Chaos Music...where is that from?

[Talya]

GEHHHHH! WOW...
GEHHHH! ...that build looks amazing!!! Um, by the way where is Heartfire Fanner from? I can't find it anywhere...And also, Chaos Music...where is that from?

They're both dragon magazine. Heartfire Fanner is a PRC Dragon 314 that continues spellcasting at every level, and gives you 5th level bardic abilities if you don't already have them, before it continues bardic music on its own progression.

Chaos music is a feat in Dragon 326 that boosts your effective bard level for bardic music by +4 for determining what types of bardic music you can use (this +4 cannot exceed your hit dice.)

The way I see this:

Gloura gives 7 levels of bardic casting to start with. Heartfire Fanner continues it at each level (so +3, 10th level bardic spellcasting.) Heartfire fanner also gives you 5 levels of bardic music all on its own, and then continues it with its own progression, so an effective 8 levels of bardic music over your first 10 hit dice.

Sublime Chord has its own spellcasting that seems a perfect fit on top of bardic 10. It only advances bardic music by 1/2, so you end up with bardic music at 13th level.

Chaos music brings that up to 17th.

You might want to continue more heartfire fanner after sublime chord 1, depending what class features you like better. Goura 7, Heartfire Fanner 3, Sublime Chord 1, Heartfire Fanner +2, Sublime Chord +7 gives you the same spellcasting as before, but you trade 2 levels of sublime chord features for 2 levels of heartfire fanner features (including its custom bardic music advancement.)

[Bard for Kicks]

Sorry I'm a bit noobish to D&D (2nd time playing...)
Dragon Magazine is part of 3.5?

[Talya]

Sorry I'm a bit noobish to D&D (2nd time playing...)
Dragon Magazine is part of 3.5?

Yes. They can be hard to locate details from...

[Urpriest]

Sorry I'm a bit noobish to D&D (2nd time playing...)
Dragon Magazine is part of 3.5?

In that it was published for 3.5 (back when 3.5 itself was being published). It's not official in the same sense that the books published by Wizards of the Coast are official, but it was contributed to by many of the same people.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why do you need such a high AC? AC isn't really a good defense. Go for miss chances instead.

[Bard for Kicks]

Why do you need such a high AC? AC isn't really a good defense. Go for miss chances instead.

Miss chances? Please explain...
Plus I like AC. Xept when my dex bonus is denied. Then I just hope I don't die :smallbiggrin:

So. Miss chances? I hope you don't mean feats. Because I don't get many of those...

[ImperatorK]

There are spells and items that give miss chances, like 20% chance that you get hit, mirror image (greater), etc.

[Yuki Akuma]

Miss chances. Make your opponent have to roll a percentile die or just flat-out miss you.

Concealment is the biggy. Full concealment (such as being invisible or your opponent being blind) grants a 50% miss chance - even if they hit your AC, they'll miss half the time.

Blur (second level Sorcerer/Wizard spell) grants a 20% miss chance. A Ring of Blinking does as well, although on the downside you suffer from the miss chance as well.

[MrRigger]

Displacement, Blur, Mirror Image, Greater Mirror Image, there's pretty much a whole subset of Illusion devoted to making you nearly impossible to hit. Also, any effects that grant concealment or total concealment.

MrRigger

[Bard for Kicks]

Oh. The spells. Yeah. I have those on me all the time in battle. They just seem to fail me sometimes (as in...I seem to have terrible luck. all the time). In which case, I have to rely on AC (or position myself so that attacking me will provoke a lot of attacks of opportunity)

[Tvtyrant]

Also, Elan for aberration alter self. That is all.

[Curmudgeon]

In that it was published for 3.5 (back when 3.5 itself was being published). It's not official in the same sense that the books published by Wizards of the Coast are official, but it was contributed to by many of the same people.
I guess you haven't looked at any of those Dragon magazines recently, then. Every issue has the official D&D® logo on the cover, and a banner including a phrase saying something like "100% Official D&D®". Those issues have the same status as any D&D supplement book, like Complete Adventurer. Dragon magazine was an in-house publication of TSR and then Wizards of the Coast (and is again, now, in electronic form). For 5 years the magazine was published under license by Paizo Publishing. In all that span the status didn't change: always 100% official.

[Bard for Kicks]

Also, Elan for aberration alter self. That is all.

Elan? What izzz tat?

Also, why would Abberation Alter Self be any more useful than any other Alter Self? :smallconfused:

[Amnestic]

Elan?


Elan is a Psionic Race, the details of which you can find on this page. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/elan.htm)

[Taelas]

Aberrations have some useful forms for Alter Self, mainly.

[MrRigger]

You can only Alter Self into something that shares your Type (Humanoid, Fey, etc.), and Aberration gets some pretty interesting things you can shift into. I think my favorite is still Outsider, but I've never played with Alter Self too much, so I can't say which is precisely better.

MrRigger

Swordsage'd, nevermind.

[Bard for Kicks]

So...I'm playing a bard....Elan sounds pretty useless to me (the whole...charisma thing, eh) Is there a feat that can allow you to change into abberation? :smallbiggrin: (or would that be totally ridiculous?) :smallredface:

[Taelas]

Generally you need templates to change types.

[Yuki Akuma]

So...I'm playing a bard....Elan sounds pretty useless to me (the whole...charisma thing, eh) Is there a feat that can allow you to change into abberation? :smallbiggrin: (or would that be totally ridiculous?) :smallredface:

Bards don't require 18 Charisma to function. 16 is plenty. 14 is good enough at level 1, even. :smalltongue:

[Bard for Kicks]

Bards don't require 18 Charisma to function. 16 is plenty. 14 is good enough at level 1, even. :smalltongue:

Well. The first (and only) campaign I played, I wished I had that much Charisma or more (since spells never worked. ever.)

Btw, template to change type to abberation...on a gloura???