Raising Tiers

[alchemyprime]

Right now I am specifically looking at the fighter.

How unheard of would it be to make a system separate but parallel to Martial Maneuvers to increase the fighter's efficiency at killing things and to improve the versatility of what they can do? Perhaps give them things like "Take a swift action, your next attack is a save or suck?"

Any thoughts?

[FMArthur]

Every Fighter fix out there becomes "not a Fighter anymore" in the eyes of Fighter fans the moment it escapes the clutches of its unfortunate 'feat = class feature' design, something required to really fix it without fixing all Fighter feats.

[JaronK]

Right now I am specifically looking at the fighter.

How unheard of would it be to make a system separate but parallel to Martial Maneuvers to increase the fighter's efficiency at killing things and to improve the versatility of what they can do? Perhaps give them things like "Take a swift action, your next attack is a save or suck?"

Any thoughts?

I'm wondering why you don't just want to play a Warblade, since you're basically asking "what if a Fighter was a Warblade?" I mean, did you just want feats on a Warblade? Why not just play a Fighter 4/Warblade X and call it a day?

Though I will say that the Zhentarium Fighter substitution does give the Fighter a useful Swift Action attack that expands versatility.


Every Fighter fix out there becomes "not a Fighter anymore" in the eyes of Fighter fans the moment it escapes the clutches of its unfortunate 'feat = class feature' design, something required to really fix it without fixing all Fighter feats.

Only the fixes that don't leave any of the recognizable Fighter traits in the final product. Fighters are supposed to be masters of feats, as well as being decent as Warlords, Guards, Military Veterans, and Bodyguards. As long as the final product is all of those things (and probably more), it's still a Fighter. This is not to say that you should ONLY have feats as the current class does... that clearly doesn't work. Feats + actually useful stuff would be great. I'm just confused by this particular OP idea because it just sounds like asking for a Warblade with a Fighter dip, which already exists.

Mostly the objections come in when the new class is more like a Warblade than a Fighter, at which point we ask "why not play a Warblade?"

JaronK

[alchemyprime]

I'm wondering why you don't just want to play a Warblade, since you're basically asking "what if a Fighter was a Warblade?" I mean, did you just want feats on a Warblade? Why not just play a Fighter 4/Warblade X and call it a day?

Though I will say that the Zhentarium Fighter substitution does give the Fighter a useful Swift Action attack that expands versatility.



Only the fixes that don't leave any of the recognizable Fighter traits in the final product. Fighters are supposed to be masters of feats, as well as being decent as Warlords, Guards, Military Veterans, and Bodyguards. As long as the final product is all of those things, it's still a Fighter. This is not to say that you should ONLY have feats as the current class does... that clearly doesn't work. Feats + actually useful stuff would be great. I'm just confused by this particular OP idea because it just sounds like asking for a Warblade with a Fighter dip, which already exists.

JaronK

No, I want to remake every class, including the Warblade, to try to get close to that line right around High 3/Low 2. I was just wondering what ideas were already presented here on the ideas for Fighters, as they seem like an idea jumping off place.

For the wizards... it's mostly spell selection I need to redo. Those Save or Dies are going to have to either go, change, or have some other requirement that will make them not the favorable choice...

[Divide by Zero]

For the wizards... it's mostly spell selection I need to redo. Those Save or Dies are going to have to either go, change, or have some other requirement that will make them not the favorable choice...

It's not the SoDs that make wizards broken, it's the utility. Divination, flight, battlefield control...

[Elric VIII]

Only the fixes that don't leave any of the recognizable Fighter traits in the final product. Fighters are supposed to be masters of feats, as well as being decent as Warlords, Guards, Military Veterans, and Bodyguards. As long as the final product is all of those things, it's still a Fighter. This is not to say that you should ONLY have feats as the current class does... that clearly doesn't work. Feats + actually useful stuff would be great. I'm just confused by this particular OP idea because it just sounds like asking for a Warblade with a Fighter dip, which already exists.

JaronK

Dragon Magazine 310 has Fighter variants that can trade bonus feats for actual class features and a different skill list. They are pretty cool, such as a Horseman Fighter can take an ability that allows him to take up to one 90 degree turn/Dex mod of his mount while charging. Another (bodyguard) adds spot/listen to his class skills and allows him to take a feature that lets him give his Shield or Combat Expertise AC bonus to an adjacent ally.

The only thing that I would change is that most of these Fighters get a limited list of bonus feats from which to choose. They are core feats, with additions not normally on the Fighter bonus feat list. The problem is that you lose a lot from various splat books. I would recommend giving them the option of taking the additional feats, but leaving the rest of the list the same.

More skill points couldn't hurt either. Fighters should get at least 4, IMO.

[JaronK]

No, I want to remake every class, including the Warblade, to try to get close to that line right around High 3/Low 2. I was just wondering what ideas were already presented here on the ideas for Fighters, as they seem like an idea jumping off place.

Then you might want to use search, as there's tons of fixes that have been put up here and over at Brilliant Gameologists. My personal favorites:

1) Expand their skill list to include skills that, fluffwise, they really should have. Since they're supposed to be good guards and bodyguards, they should have Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive. Since they're supposed to be veteran soldiers, give them Profession, Perform Weapon Drill, and Knowledge History. Since they're supposed to be war leaders, give them Diplomacy. Then give them 4+Int skills so they can use these. This will give them some out of combat utility, since they can at least be alert for threats and notice when someone in a social situation is full of it.

2) Since they're supposed to be flexible, make their feats flexible. Give them floating feats, like the Chameleon ability except for Fighter feats only, at level 5, 10, 15, and 20. These can't be prerequisites for any other feats except other floating feats. At low levels it can take an hour to switch that floating feat, but by level 20 they should be able to swap on the fly (swift action) to new feats. Also, the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability really belongs on Fighters.

3) Since their feats are supposed to be as good as class features, give a lot of the basic feats a bonus based on Fighter levels. For example, Dodge might have an added bit that says "Special: Increase the AC bonus by 1 per two Fighter levels" while Weapon Focus might say "Special: Increase the to hit bonus from this feat by 1 per 3 Fighter levels." Now feats are important class features at higher levels too.

4) Since Fighters are supposed to be good at the basics of warfare, give them a +1 to Trip, Bull Rush, Disarm, Overrun, and Grapple for every three Fighter levels, flat out.

5) Since Fighters are supposed to be tough to take down, give them appropriate tanky abilities like Con to saves (limited by Fighter levels) and the ability to shrug off conditions (write it better than IHS!). Perhaps a "Brace for Impact" ability that lets them spend a full round action to gain temporary hitpoints (max temp HP = Fighter Level + Con Mod?), so they can boost themselves before fights and not just drain resources. At higher levels they might even get the ability to make a speech or something and give their allies temp HP too. Perhaps the ability to heal themselves up to half HP given one minute might also be nice.

6) Since Fighters are supposed to be veterans of many wars, give them a bonus (equal to Fighter level?) on Knowledge checks to identify the strengths and weaknesses of monsters. Right now you could be a veteran of the Drow wars and yet not even know what a Drow looks like, and that just makes no sense.

With all that, you'd be getting into the ballpark nicely, I'd think. And it should still feel like a "Fighter" while gaining non combat utility and becoming more solid all around.


For the wizards... it's mostly spell selection I need to redo. Those Save or Dies are going to have to either go, change, or have some other requirement that will make them not the favorable choice...

One principle I've used for fixing Wizard spells is that no spell should create significant benefits past the point where you gain the spell slot back again. So, it might be reasonable for example to have Animate Dead "use up" a fourth level spell slot until you don't have undead raised by the spell anymore. Also, if you don't know everything a spell does by reading it, there's likely an issue. For example, what all can you actually get from Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange? There's so many options that something is bound to break.

Likewise, defenses that destroy the "squishy Wizard who needs a tank to protect him" concept usually are problematic.

Save or Dies are mostly fine... they're rare and usually single target. It's the Save or Sucks that often require fixing, such as Glitterdust.

JaronK

[Divide by Zero]

3) Since their feats are supposed to be as good as class features, give a lot of the basic feats a bonus based on Fighter levels. For example, Dodge might have an added bit that says "Special: Increase the AC bonus by 1 per two Fighter levels" while Weapon Focus might say "Special: Increase the to hit bonus from this feat by 1 per 3 Fighter levels." Now feats are important class features at higher levels too.

4) Since Fighters are supposed to be good at the basics of warfare, give them a +1 to Trip, Bull Rush, Disarm, Overrun, and Grapple for every three Fighter levels, flat out.

I like most of your ideas, but these two don't seem like they would make much difference. Those are all things fighters are already good at, and as you know, big numbers don't make a class change tiers.

[JaronK]

I like most of your ideas, but these two don't seem like they would make much difference. Those are all things fighters are already good at, and as you know, big numbers don't make a class change tiers.

The idea there is that only a few feats would be enough to make you awesome at any one combat option, so you'd be able to spread out your feats and get more combat options. More options would help a lot. If Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization + Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot was enough to make you an amazing archer and Combat Expertise + Improved Trip was enough to make you an amazing tripper, you could easily have both and more, thus giving more versatility.

JaronK

[ImperatorK]

Maybe give fighters fighter bonus feats automaticly when they meet their requirements? Or maybe give him a feat every level, rather then every second level.
Really, the best solution would be to "fix" feats so they are useful and powerful enough to be a "class feature" on their own. Onlt then would a fighters "more feats" shtick be relevant.

[thompur]

A partial fix I've been considering is, at 7th level, Fighters can include all iterative attacks in a standard action, then, with additional class features, let them trade the extra attacks for special results. For example, at 8th level, Tordek can give up his iterative attack, and add +2 circumstance bonus to the attack, or with a successful attack the opponent is dazed. Then at 11th level, give up one to daze, two to nauseate or confuse.

And I completely agree, give them more skill points, set class skills, and 2 "untrained" skills that can represent their life before adventuring. Although this last I would give to every character. Or alternatively, every character could get 4 free skill points that they can put into a Craft or Proffession.

[Divide by Zero]

A partial fix I've been considering is, at 7th level, Fighters can include all iterative attacks in a standard action, then, with additional class features, let them trade the extra attacks for special results. For example, at 8th level, Tordek can give up his iterative attack, and add +2 circumstance bonus to the attack, or with a successful attack the opponent is dazed. Then at 11th level, give up one to daze, two to nauseate or confuse.

But the fighter is still limited to "hit an opponent and bad things happen to them." What they really need is more tactical options and noncombat abilities.

[MeeposFire]

Something I thought of adding (among other things) is that all classes deal extra damage when using an attack action, a charge attack with one attack, and similar occurrences (flavored to be getting a more precise and stronger attack since you are not trying to make a bunch of attacks).

When making one of those attacks you deal +1d6 damage per point of BAB over 5. So at BAB +20 you would deal +15d6 damage on an attack action. Still working out the bugs but it helps the non-tob characters have effective standard action attacks.

[thompur]

But the fighter is still limited to "hit an opponent and bad things happen to them." What they really need is more tactical options and noncombat abilities.

Which is why I called it a "partial fix".

Now the non-combat abilities is mostly covered by more class skills and skill points.
Aside from tripping, disarming, grappling, bullrushing,sundering, and charging, what tactical options would you consider worth while? Maybe borrow from White Raven and give them the ability to boost their allies, or block opponents movement. I would sincerely be interested in more tactical options if you have any ideas.
I also especially like the idea of "Fighter Only" options and Class features to make them more interesting as a class, rather than a dip.

[MeeposFire]

I also used the martial art syles found in OA. Those were a combo of feats and skills that if you had them all you got special benefits (such as you dealing damage one size larger with your fists). I just came up with a bunch of new ones that required various feats (sometimes a lot of them) and some even required a certain number of fighter levels. This meant that I could give out new benefits based on feat choice making the bonus feat numbers worth something.