Altruistic Liches

[pegase]

So, uh, is it possible to be a good-aligned lich? I mean the process of becoming one is usually innately evil, but lets say a preexisting lich is redeemed, but is too afraid of death to actually end his own "life". As a result, he hides out in his stone tower, surrounded by flocks of zombie butterflies, rescuing children from burning orphanages with his undead minions.

[Shadowknight12]

Get Sanctified. Or use the redemption rules in BoED. Or track down the Archliches and Baelnorns from Faerun. Or ask your DM to remove the "unspeakably evil" part of the ritual. Or be a Dry Lich.

[zyborg]

The 3.5 SRD claims all Liches are evil. Prior to that, however, there were mentions of good liches. According to Wikipedia, you need to look at the 3.0 book "Monsters of Faerun" for more info.

[Lateral]

I'm fairly sure there's a Good Lich template variant in some book, but I don't know which.

[Caliphbubba]

So, uh, is it possible to be a good-aligned lich? I mean the process of becoming one is usually innately evil, but lets say a preexisting lich is redeemed, but is too afraid of death to actually end his own "life". As a result, he hides out in his stone tower, surrounded by flocks of zombie butterflies, rescuing children from burning orphanages with his undead minions.

I know this isn't really relevant, but when I saw the thread title I thought it said Autistic Liches and was really hoping for a Rain Main lich or maybe a dastardly ne're do well named Asperger the Syndrom, who isn't really EVIL per se but just has trouble relating to flesh bags...er I mean people lol

[Drakevarg]

Libris Mortis has rules for good liches, and they're actually more badass than normal ones. They get Turn Undead as a cleric of equal HD, and Turn Immunity. CR +1.

[Mewtarthio]

Even if the ritual itself is "unspeakably evil," the lich could still repent of its past misdeeds and seek atonement. For a lich to be necessarily evil, either something in the lich's nature must be preventing a change of heart (eg having your soul outside your body makes you psychologically incapable of empathy and remorse, or a phylactery can only hold evil souls and automatically permakills the lich if it stops being evil) or the lich's very existence is anathema (eg every lich in existence slightly increases the rate of stillbirths). Heck, even in the latter case, a lich could very well do enough good to make a utilitarian appeal for its continued existence (say, by dedicating its unlife to hunting and re-killing other liches).

[Malimar]

Get Sanctified. Or use the redemption rules in BoED. Or track down the Archliches and Baelnorns from Faerun. Or ask your DM to remove the "unspeakably evil" part of the ritual. Or be a Dry Lich.

Or wear a Helm of Opposite Alignment after becoming a lich. The hat doesn't say anything about being [mind-affecting]!

...somebody please tell me this would really work.

[Shadowknight12]

Or wear a Helm of Opposite Alignment after becoming a lich. The hat doesn't say anything about being [mind-affecting]!

...somebody please tell me this would really work.

It would. I used that tactic with a lich NPC. He turned an aasimar paladin into a vampire, put a Helmet of Opposite Alignment on his head and made him atone. The helmet was his phylactery. If the paladin ever took it off or allowed it to be destroyed, he'd betray his faith, goodness and everything he stood for. Best phylactery ever.

[Jeraa]

Or wear a Helm of Opposite Alignment after becoming a lich. The hat doesn't say anything about being [mind-affecting]!

...somebody please tell me this would really work.

From reading both the item description and the undead traits, this will work. It requires failure of the DC 15 Will save, which could be hard for a lich - the typical lich as presented in the MM has a +10 Will save.

[Heatwizard]

I'm fairly sure there's a Good Lich template variant in some book, but I don't know which.

Libris Mortis, page 155-ish. It's nothing special, though; just the ability to Turn Undead and immunity to getting Turned.

[Yuki Akuma]

It would. I used that tactic with a lich NPC. He turned an aasimar paladin into a vampire, put a Helmet of Opposite Alignment on his head and made him atone. The helmet was his phylactery. If the paladin ever took it off or allowed it to be destroyed, he'd betray his faith, goodness and everything he stood for. Best phylactery ever.

The Helm of Opposite alignment does not work that way. Once you take it off you're still stuck with your new alignment.

[Fax Celestis]

From reading both the item description and the undead traits, this will work. It requires failure of the DC 15 Will save, which could be hard for a lich - the typical lich as presented in the MM has a +10 Will save.
Bestow curse, maybe? Or, willingly fail the save.

[Shadowknight12]

The Helm of Opposite alignment does not work that way. Once you take it off you're still stuck with your new alignment.

But the paladin didn't know that, and nobody else knew it was a helm of opposite alignment (or indeed, that he was a vampire at all, I used the MiC rules to combine items, so it was also a Hat of Disguise that he used to make himself look alive and well).

[IthroZada]

The 3.5 SRD claims all Liches are evil. Prior to that, however, there were mentions of good liches. According to Wikipedia, you need to look at the 3.0 book "Monsters of Faerun" for more info.

It's on page 90.

[NNescio]

But the paladin didn't know that, and nobody else knew it was a helm of opposite alignment (or indeed, that he was a vampire at all, I used the MiC rules to combine items, so it was also a Hat of Disguise that he used to make himself look alive and well).

Security through obscurity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity) strikes me as a bad idea, especially since they are better alternatives available. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198677)

Obscurity does play a vital role in layered defences (read: defense in depth), but putting your cosmic keystone in the hands of a hatred enemy and leaving it all to a single bluff just sounds like a particularly bad idea.

[Analytica]

Alignment makes more sense if you see it as a label that the deities or the outer planes put on you, rather than as something that dictates your actions.

If the lich is always evil, that means that the lich always pings as such to a paladin, always is harmed by holy words etc, but it doesn't mean that a DM should forbid your lich character from saving any children from any burning orphanages.

[Shadowknight12]

Security through obscurity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity) strikes me as a bad idea, especially since they are better alternatives available.

Obscurity does play a vital role in layered defences (read: defense in depth), but putting your cosmic keystone in the hands of a hatred enemy and leaving it all to a single bluff just sounds like a particularly bad idea.

There were layers, trust me. It was a huge, convoluted plan. The item also had so many abjurations it was silly. It also protected the vampire from many (if not all) of the vampire's weaknesses, to better pass off the deception. Also, the paladin worked in a temple of a good god, which meant that the lich's enemies who discovered the nature of the helmet would have to go through an entire temple of good-aligned divine casters to get to the paladin himself.

The paladin also didn't hate the lich, he thought of him as a friend (and remained ignorant of the lich's manipulations) and trusted ally. He also had no idea of the helmet's nature as a phylactery, he merely thought it was the sole thing preventing him from succumbing to his vampiric curse (which he also kept a secret).

There are more layers than this, but I don't think they're really that relevant to the thread. :smalltongue:

[Ankhman]

in the already mentioned "monsters of faerun" are the alternate rules for good liches and baelnorns ... good elf-liches, that woop your ass from here to myth drannor.

[MeeposFire]

The good old Arch Lich issue. There used to be good liches I don't know if they had mechanics that "official allowed it by RAW" in 3e though. As rare as rocs teeth they say.

[blazingshadow]

good is overrated and dumb stick to evil like any decent lich does

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm fairly sure there's a Good Lich template variant in some book, but I don't know which.


Even if the ritual itself is "unspeakably evil," the lich could still repent of its past misdeeds and seek atonement. For a lich to be necessarily evil, either something in the lich's nature must be preventing a change of heart (eg having your soul outside your body makes you psychologically incapable of empathy and remorse, or a phylactery can only hold evil souls and automatically permakills the lich if it stops being evil) or the lich's very existence is anathema (eg every lich in existence slightly increases the rate of stillbirths). Heck, even in the latter case, a lich could very well do enough good to make a utilitarian appeal for its continued existence (say, by dedicating its unlife to hunting and re-killing other liches).


The good old Arch Lich issue. There used to be good liches I don't know if they had mechanics that "official allowed it by RAW" in 3e though. As rare as rocs teeth they say.

Okay, so, this is terribly funny. There are at least, bare-naked-butt-minimum 3 variants. There are the fore-mentioned Baelnorns (elven good liches dedicating their "unlife" to protecting the Elven Realms [Myth Drannor, etc.] from Monsters of Faerun with a questionable 3.5 update, probably), the Arch-Liches from Libris Mortis with their super sexy turn undead/immunity at the high cost of 4 LA, and a "good lich" in some dragon magazine. Not sure on its alternate name.


You could also argue that you could be a good Dry Lich, but the easiest form of entry is just taking 10 levels in Walker in the Waste (also Sandstorm) - and that demands non-good. Thus, it becomes a case of "Does no longer qualifying turn off all Prestige Class/This one Prestige class," and I do not like that argument from either side. In this case, it could seriously go either way. Just, no, please don't do it here.:smallsigh:

[Amiel]

I know this isn't really relevant, but when I saw the thread title I thought it said Autistic Liches and was really hoping for a Rain Main lich or maybe a dastardly ne're do well named Asperger the Syndrom, who isn't really EVIL per se but just has trouble relating to flesh bags...er I mean people lol

Coming to a campaign accessory near you: the Misunderstood Lich and the Emo Lich (crawling in my robes, these wounds will not heal).


Even the arch-liches aren't exclusively good; most are considerate of the well-being of others, to a point, but undeath seems to warp one's perceptions in a way that induces selfish behaviour.

[Malimar]

It would. I used that tactic with a lich NPC. He turned an aasimar paladin into a vampire, put a Helmet of Opposite Alignment on his head and made him atone. The helmet was his phylactery. If the paladin ever took it off or allowed it to be destroyed, he'd betray his faith, goodness and everything he stood for. Best phylactery ever.


From reading both the item description and the undead traits, this will work. It requires failure of the DC 15 Will save, which could be hard for a lich - the typical lich as presented in the MM has a +10 Will save.


Bestow curse, maybe? Or, willingly fail the save.

Yaaaay! :smallbiggrin: Helm of Opposite Alignment shenanigans are best shenanigans.

[Lateral]

in the already mentioned "monsters of faerun" are the alternate rules for good liches and baelnorns ... good elf-liches, that woop your ass from here to myth drannor.

...

DOES EVERY EVIL MONSTER BECOME GOOD WHEN IT'S AN ELF?

First werewolves, and now liches?! Come on!

[hamishspence]

Okay, so, this is terribly funny. There are at least, bare-naked-butt-minimum 3 variants. There are the fore-mentioned Baelnorns (elven good liches dedicating their "unlife" to protecting the Elven Realms [Myth Drannor, etc.] from Monsters of Faerun with a questionable 3.5 update, probably), the Arch-Liches from Libris Mortis with their super sexy turn undead/immunity at the high cost of 4 LA, and a "good lich" in some dragon magazine. Not sure on its alternate name.

Actually, the human good lich variant in Monsters of Faerun is called the archlich.

The general good lich variant in Libris Mortis is called the "good lich".

And the 3.5 update is in the online supplement to Player's Guide to Faerun- which updates the monsters in pretty much every 3.0 Faerun splatbook.

[Ravens_cry]

good is overrated and dumb stick to evil like any decent lich does
I can see that your sentence is not a nation or a pre-menopausal woman.
It has neither capitals or periods.

[Johel]

...

DOES EVERY EVIL MONSTER BECOME GOOD WHEN IT'S AN ELF?

First werewolves, and now liches?! Come on!

Driders don't.
Now, there's nothing but elves as base for driders. But still.

Oh, I completely support your outraged cry.
Creating undead is an evil act, whatever the reason behind it.
Rather than despoil life to defend their family from beyond the grave, those elven wizards should teach their relatives to use that same magic.

[Kansaschaser]

Good Liches exist in Forgotten Realms. Here's what I can recall off the top of my head.

Rules: They were Elves or Half-Elfs in life. They get turn resistance. They can communicate at a great distance by some sort of illusion or astral projection.

Flavor: They were Elves who decided to become a lich to look after a great treasure, place, or tribe.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Actually, the human good lich variant in Monsters of Faerun is called the archlich.

The general good lich variant in Libris Mortis is called the "good lich".

And the 3.5 update is in the online supplement to Player's Guide to Faerun- which updates the monsters in pretty much every 3.0 Faerun splatbook.

Thank you so very much for that info on both counts. I sore I saw an archlich variant somewhere, but I thought that was Dragon magazine material. It may still be, but, odds are I was wrong there.:smallredface:

That said, getting that 3.5 update is super awesome!:smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Alignment makes more sense if you see it as a label that the deities or the outer planes put on you, rather than as something that dictates your actions.

If the lich is always evil, that means that the lich always pings as such to a paladin, always is harmed by holy words etc, but it doesn't mean that a DM should forbid your lich character from saving any children from any burning orphanages.

Even redeemed undead will ping as evil, going by the description in the Detect Evil spell.

Conversely, a redeemed specimen of an Always Evil monster that is neither undead nor has the Evil subtype (redeemed chromatic dragon, for example) won't ping.

Alignment doesn't dictate actions- but it is dictated by actions and willingness. A being willing to do seriously evil acts for profit or pleasure, is Evil, as is a being that has done seriously evil acts in the past and not changed perspective.

That said, there's plenty of room for compartmentalization- a character who is evil toward a specific group, and Good toward everyone else, is evil-aligned, but might be surprisingly compassionate and altruistic under most circumstances.

[Leon]

How to mess with paladins - Ping evil while not actually being evil

[hamishspence]

there's also room for "ping as evil, be evil, but not evil enough for violence to be called for on the paladin's part at that moment".

"Planar motes" from Complete Scoundrel allow beings to ping as an alignment while not being that alignment- a villain who uses pickpocketing skills to slip such motes (possibly spelled to be invisible) in the pockets of ordinary innocent citizens, can ensure a paladin is stuck on a wild goose chase, investigating people who are no danger.

[Mr.Smashy]

there's also room for "ping as evil, be evil, but not evil enough for violence to be called for on the paladin's part at that moment".

"Planar motes" from Complete Scoundrel allow beings to ping as an alignment while not being that alignment- a villain who uses pickpocketing skills to slip such motes (possibly spelled to be invisible) in the pockets of ordinary innocent citizens, can ensure a paladin is stuck on a wild goose chase, investigating people who are no danger.

LOL, HAHAHAHA! HeHeHeHEhehehe.

That was my maniacal laughter because i now know how to screw with the paladin so bad it is not funny.

Negative Energy Mote + Pally's Parents= "OMG, Mom, Dad, you're both...evil. I must vanquish you."

Ha, He kills his parents, and then falls, because he murdered his parents. Did i mention he Murders his parents? priceless.

EDIT: Or have the Motes crafted in some way as to appear to outline them, entirely. Ha, i love that Idea.

[Fax Celestis]

Ha, He kills his parents, and then falls, because he murdered his parents. Did i mention he Murders his parents? priceless.

A god that doesn't understand the difference between casual murder and misplaced righteousness is not a god I want to follow.

Translation: that's a pretty douchey move.

[pegase]

A god that doesn't understand the difference between casual murder and misplaced righteousness is not a god I want to follow.

Very thin line.

[Fax Celestis]

Very thin line.

A DM that plays those kinds of games with his players is not a DM I would play under.

[Yuki Akuma]

A god that doesn't understand the difference between casual murder and misplaced righteousness is not a god I want to follow.

Translation: that's a pretty douchey move.

Psst: Gods don't actually make Paladins fall in the default setting. Paladins serve Goodness, not Gods.

[Doug Lampert]

Bestow curse, maybe? Or, willingly fail the save.

Or just take the helm off and on repeatedly. He has to make the save each time and the help isn't discharged till someone fails the save.

[darksolitaire]

A DM that plays those kinds of games with his players is not a DM I would play under.

I actually have a player who would thank me if I pulled that kind of move. I'd allow him to role play whole new situation with his paladin, and bring the plot forwards.

[Malimar]

A god that doesn't understand the difference between casual murder and misplaced righteousness is not a god I want to follow.

A god who draws a distinction between malicious murder and murder through incompetence is not -- well, okay, maybe that's actually an acceptable distinction to make. Still, the difference between murder and negligent manslaughter is only one of degree, and neither is the kind of thing any god should be letting his paladins get away with without, at the very least, atonement.

[NNescio]

A god that doesn't understand the difference between casual murder and misplaced righteousness is not a god I want to follow.

Translation: that's a pretty douchey move.

Didn't Miko commit murder due to a severely misplaced sense of righteousness? Granted, she's a corner-(nut)case example, but still.

[GoblinArchmage]

Why would a lich have to be evil? Assuming that there is no despicable act involved in the creation of a phylactery, I don't see the reason why there would need to be alternate templates for a good lich.

Isn't the typical motivation for becoming a lich immortality? Why is that evil? That sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.

Of course, since good and evil are completely subjective, you could just ignore the "evil" prerequisite. Alignment restrictions are silly anyway.

[NNescio]

Why would a lich have to be evil? Assuming that there is no despicable act involved in the creation of a phylactery, I don't see the reason why there would need to be alternate templates for a good lich.

Isn't the typical motivation for becoming a lich immortality? Why is that evil? That sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.

Of course, since good and evil are completely subjective, you could just ignore the "evil" prerequisite. Alignment restrictions are silly anyway.

This assumption is false, as the very act of becoming a lich is despicable in of itself.


Lich Characters

The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character. A lich retains all class abilities it had in life.

Of course, this is only because WoTC (and TSR) says so, 'though it's often fluffed as an unspeakably unnatural act. Then again, proto-liches in mythology tend to be evil as well. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koschei)

Also, Good and Evil in D&D is absolute, period. There is no moral relativism in a world where spells can magically discern one's alignment.

[Steward]

Could the Deathless template be of any use here?

[GoblinArchmage]

This assumption is false, as the very act of becoming a lich is despicable in of itself.



Of course, this is only because WoTC (and TSR) says so, 'though it's often fluffed as an unspeakably unnatural act. Then again, proto-liches in mythology tend to be evil as well. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koschei)

Also, Good and Evil in D&D is absolute, period. There is no moral relativism in a world where spells can magically discern one's alignment.

All of that is fluff, though, and depends on the particular DM and players in question. Yes, that assumption is false if you go by the fluff in the Monster Manual or the SRD, but I was referring to a hypothetical campaign where creating a phylactery isn't necessarily evil. That may or may not be the OP's current campaign, but that's why I said, "assuming that there is no despicable act involved in the creation of a phylactery." I did not intend to suggest that such was the case in every campaign.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

All of that is fluff, though, and depends on the particular DM and players in question. Yes, that assumption is false if you go by the fluff in the Monster Manual or the SRD, but I was referring to a hypothetical campaign where creating a phylactery isn't necessarily evil. That may or may not be the OP's current campaign, but that's why I said, "assuming that there is no despicable act involved in the creation of a phylactery." I did not intend to suggest that such was the case in every campaign.

Considering this framework (and stuff like the crazy good guys of FR, the obvious variant in the quantifiable source for all sorts of Undead boogeymen, and the hazy alignments of Eberron being hardwired into that system, too, Good, as in the "element of planes: Good" is entirely possible for at least a lich to resist. Be it due to race "Arch for humans, Baelnorn for Elves" the pure sake of nature "Some shade of X neutral druid rather than NE Druid Walker in the Wastes" or even just campaign idea "War is hell, but hard to call in the aftermath with all the spies and other ...things... that showed up from the last Great-with-a-Big-"G" War."

Thus, it is entirely possible for a campaign to have that latter most "What if" alignment vibe from Eberron. It's not inherently "It's evil! SMITE!" but rather more of an ambiguous thing you do as that world grows with that group of players and their and your collective story - either as GM or as just another PC.

[zyborg]

What about Arch-liches? They are like liches, except good...

[hamishspence]

The Dread Necromancer class is not required to be evil (though it is required to be nongood)- and it has as its capstone, transformation into a "lich". Though it might not actually gain all the benefits of the lich template.

[Saintheart]

...

DOES EVERY MONSTER BECOME AN ELF WHEN IT'S EVIL?

Fixed that for you. :smallwink:

[Makiru]

So, I have this 3rd party PDF called Complete Guide to Liches, which does have some unique fluff regarding this particular dilemma.

Why the alignment shift?

As noted earlier, there are certain individuals who become
liches with the best of intentions. They understand completely
that lichdom will change them into an undead being; however,
for whatever reason, they choose to believe that they can enter
the world of the undead without becoming evil. Sadly, this is
not the case. Necromantic energy flows through the bodies of all
liches and lich sub-types, animating them and allowing them to
exist in their undead state. The inherent evil that comprises
necromantic energy permeates every fiber of a lich's being.
Regardless of how good the subject was prior to becoming a
lich, regardless of the well-intentioned reasons for becoming a
lich, the newly created lich immediately undergoes an alignment
change towards evil the moment it re-enters the world as an
undead being, and no external magical force in existence - not
even a wish - can alter this. Only if a lich should voluntarily
choose to end its undead existence and become a living creature
of good once more can it actually become good... but the lifespans
of such "good" liches are incredibly short, and so incredibly
rare as to be thought of as only myth (see page 12).

Redeeming a Lich (wall of text!)

On the rarest of rare occasions, a lich can be redeemed.
Liches throughout the world are known, for the most part, as
monstrous beings of the purest evil. However, there are a handful
that serve the forces of good. The exact explanation for how
and why this occurs is not entirely clear, even to the wisest of
sages. All that is known for certain about this process is that it
is something that can never be sought, but is instead brought
about by instinct and circumstance.
Liches that were evil as mortals never become good in their
undead state. For a lich to possess even the slightest chance of
ever becoming a creature of good, it must have been good - at
least for a time - during its mortal existence. It is believed that
this once-forgotten existence lurks within the very being of such
liches, serving to act as a potential spark for a miraculous change
should the right conditions present themselves.
The situations that can bring about the creation of a good
lich are simple but practically impossible. All the lich must do is
perform a selfless act of good for a single living being. This act
of good must only benefit that living being; the act can provide
no benefit or advantage to the lich, no matter how small or trivial.
Liches who become aware of this secret and attempt to become
redeemed are invariably doomed to failure, as every good action
they make is part of their selfish effort to become good again,
thereby making all such actions "beneficial" to themselves. These
efforts must be completely sincere - a lich saving a mortal servant
from drowning, for example, would be an example of this son of
effort, provided that the lich had no need of the servant for some
other purpose. Because of this, these acts are almost always spur
of the moment, random events, and their consequences always
come as a total shock to the liches who perform them.
In the instant that a lich's selfless act of goodness takes
place, its phylactery and vessel explode, causing 3d6 points of
damage to anyone within 10 feet of either object. The lich's life
essence and mental energies come flooding back into its undead
physical form. At this point, the lich must make a Fortitude save
(DC 20). Should the lich fail, it dies, but it dies as a creature of
good. Should the saving throw succeed, though, a startling
transformation occurs - flesh and blood begin to re-form around
the lich's body. The lich, while not exactly living, has purged
itself of all the necromantic energy that kept it in its state of
lichdom, and is reborn instead with positive energy to keep its
centuries-old form in existence. The redeemed lich looks exactly
the way it did the moment before its lips sipped the potion of
undead life, and will look that way until finally destroyed.
A redeemed lich retains many of the properties that it possessed
in its more evil form. These powers and abilities, though,
are changed slightly. The redeemed lich retains its fear aura, but
this fear is only effective against creatures of evil. Neutral creatures
are completely unaffected by the aura, and for creatures of
good the fear aura now acts as a bless aura, as the spell of the
same name. The redeemed lich's paralyzing touch only works
against evil beings, and its touch attack dealing negative energy
to foes becomes a healing touch that restores the hit points it
once took away. Apart from that, its abilities remain the same
as they were when the lich was a vile being of evil.
Once redeemed, a lich is never content to live out the rest of
its days in peace. The redeemed lich is compelled to atone for the
monstrous acts it committed while an evil monster. The
redeemed lich will actively try to make up for its crimes, no
matter how long it takes. Should the lich ever manage to completely
atone for all its acts of evil, it will finally die in peace,
but this never happens. Redeemed liches wander the ends of the
world throughout eternity, trying in vain to beg forgiveness for
what can never be forgiven. Ironically, redeemed liches often
find the true immortality that they originally sought when
becoming an undead creature of darkness. They are usually hunted
creatures, sought by those they harmed when evil. Those same
creatures usually do not know that the redeemed lich has changed
its evil ways - and even if they do know, they often do not care.

[Callista]

Balenorn, yep.

Of course you can't go for the normal lichdom; that involves "unspeakable acts" (i.e., stuff you'd never do if you were Good), so it'd be out of character for anything but an Evil character, and even then too extreme for some.

Now, if you're just looking for eternal life for some reason, you don't have to go Undead; you can probably create a construct and transfer your soul into it or polymorph permanently into an immortal race.

Immortality in D&D is pretty easy for anybody who is powerful enough to become a lich. So lich is really more of a style choice than anything else... staying around by sheer strength of will and magic is right up your alley if you're an evil megalomaniac spellcaster, but there are other ways for a non-Evil person to stick around the Prime Material if they happen to want to do so.

Oddly enough, Good-aligned immortals tend to be more selfless than Good-aligned people who don't go for immortality--that's because in D&D (most worlds anyway) they know the afterlife is going to be decent for them--they've probably Plane Shifted to visit the dearly departed, so they probably know firsthand--and the only reason to stay after all your friends die is because you've got something worthwhile to see to completion that you can't do in the afterlife. Evil-aligned people have much more reason to seek immortality, because for them the afterlife is a hardscrabble struggle for power in which only the most cunning and ruthless will survive to rule.

[Feytalist]

A thought: wouldn't a (previously evil) lich who has somehow turned good rather destroy himself? After all, he is apparently made out of pure evil according to the texts, and has already essentially cheated death. I imagine any sufficiently good character would rather just end his existence.

Note I am purposefully ignoring the other "good archlich baelnorn etc." options for the moment.

[Taelas]

It is the act of becoming a lich which is unspeakably Evil. He would just want to atone for that act (which he might choose to do by ending his life). Of course, if he sees being a lich as being Evil in and of itself, then the situation is different. But being undead isn't Evil.

[Callista]

Depends on your lich; could go either way.

But a lich is one of those "Always Evil" things. If you like using undead, you've probably read the fluff about them in Libris Mortis; when they become a lich, they kind of freeze their personalities where they were when they became undead--they're not alive anymore, merely preserved. So the lich will keep its evil outlook indefinitely, because it has become pretty much incapable of change.

Of course a lich is still intelligent, and there are still ways to turn Always Evil into that one-in-a-million who isn't. Maybe the lich imprisoned an Exalted-level Good character who, over time, managed to convert him. Maybe he was affected by magic or a cursed item. Maybe there was a deity involved. So it's possible--but it's extraordinary. Liches don't just wake up one day and decide to be Good. (Besides, they don't sleep to begin with.) Or, I suppose, you could have a lich who had lived for ten thousand years and just slowly become apathetic and withdrawn from the world... having seen it all, he spends his time in his tower room, endlessly contemplating the universe, having lost his desire to interact with anything at all... This lich might have turned true neutral sometime over those ten thousand years.

Whether a newly Good lich would kill itself immediately depends on the individual lich. There'd be a lot of guilt, but if the lich smashes its own phylactery and takes a dive into the nearest pool of lava, it wouldn't have any chance to repair any of the damage it caused beforehand. A Lawful lich might turn itself in to whatever authorities are responsible for protecting the people it has hurt and killed, but since this would lead to prompt execution, it might also attempt to disguise itself and work to undo the problems its previous existence has caused.

Depending on the personality, ridiculous levels of angst might prompt you to want to smack the lich upside its skeletal head, but I don't think that most liches would upon being flipped to Good immediately kill themselves. The kind of person who becomes a lich is generally careful and good at planning (though not always--Exhibit A, Xykon), and being that impulsive doesn't seem in-character for someone like that, however much remorse they felt. It's entirely likely, though, that a newly-Good lich might seek out the most dangerous missions it could find, secretly or not-so-secretly hoping for an honorable death.

[Marnath]

So, I have this 3rd party PDF called Complete Guide to Liches, which does have some unique fluff regarding this particular dilemma.

Redeeming a Lich (wall of text!)


So basically, a Deathless template Lich? Nice.:smalltongue:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So, I have this 3rd party PDF called Complete Guide to Liches, which does have some unique fluff regarding this particular dilemma.

To be fair, this is 3rd party, and Wizards of the Coast themselves has gone on to show that Good Liches can easily exist, just that they usually have some great pull of dedication of goal in their undeath that motivates them to do either the "Unspeakable" act to become a Lich or simply found an alternate means to get most of the same things out of being a Lich without doing so.

A great example here is the Dry Lich: you must work with some Non-good people, but, hey, after that, you're already a Lich, so you can easily just run away from those schmucks... if you don't mind fearing water for the rest of all existence.

Then you have the Elven Baelnorns and their quest to save their lands for as long as their shells of flesh and bone hold out. The Archliches of humans who just said "No, I'm not going to die anytime soon and instead will keep protecting these lands!" and even the variant in The Book of Bad Latin where liches can simply just be Good.

[Analytica]

What I miss are the neutral liches. Can there be no middle ground between evil master of death and putrification eternal on one side, and selfless devoted protector of whatever, on the other side? What if you just want to read every book in the multiverse, or watch the sun set on every plane? Lichedom remains the most accessible solution to the mortality problem.

[NNescio]

What I miss are the neutral liches. Can there be no middle ground between evil master of death and putrification eternal on one side, and selfless devoted protector of whatever, on the other side? What if you just want to read every book in the multiverse, or watch the sun set on every plane? Lichedom remains the most accessible solution to the mortality problem.

Polymorph Any Object: Myself, from 40 years ago.

Just hope you don't get hit by a Dispel.

[Analytica]

Polymorph Any Object: Myself, from 40 years ago.

Just hope you don't get hit by a Dispel.

Most DM's I know would say that goes against RAI for the spell and refuse to accept it, sadly. It would also raise the question on why there are liches in the first place. It's not as though it makes you that much stronger, it is frequently fluffed as the arcanist's last resort, and the phylactery immortality thing can be replicated using Stasis Clone.

[NNescio]

Most DM's I know would say that goes against RAI for the spell and refuse to accept it, sadly. It would also raise the question on why there are liches in the first place. It's not as though it makes you that much stronger, it is frequently fluffed as the arcanist's last resort, and the phylactery immortality thing can be replicated using Stasis Clone.

Last Breath then. Or Reincarnate if you are feeling stingy and don't care which race you come back as.

Or the Necropolitan template, also from the Book of Bad Latin. Doesn't require or cause you to be evil.

Having your own personal plane with the timeless trait will also work.

There's also an item called the Rod of Security.

And Kissed By the Ages by you allow Dragon Magazine. You get a phylactery of sorts as well.

[Analytica]

Last Breath then. Or Reincarnate if you are feeling stingy and don't care which race you come back as.

I would personally allow those, though IIRC Last Breath works exactly like Reincarnate in that it race swaps. Getting the spell cast might be tricky if all the druids get spells from nature deities and those nature deities are big on the alotted time concept, but there are ways of getting around that too.


Or the Necropolitan template, also from the Book of Bad Latin. Doesn't require or cause you to be evil.

Yes. In my estimate, though, the same would probably have been true for the lich if it had been written by the same person who wrote the Necropolitan.


Having your own personal plane with the timeless trait will also work.

As long as you spend enough time there, sure.


There's also an item called the Rod of Security.

Though you will need a new one ever so often.


And Kissed By the Ages by you allow Dragon Magazine. You get a phylactery of sorts as well.

True, if you have someone else capable of casting it.

Otherwise, my favourite is the Steal Life spell from BoVD, though using that regularly to stay young and fresh is arguably more evil than becoming a lich...

[NNescio]

I would personally allow those, though IIRC Last Breath works exactly like Reincarnate in that it race swaps. Getting the spell cast might be tricky if all the druids get spells from nature deities and those nature deities are big on the alotted time concept, but there are ways of getting around that too.

Last Breath doesn't cause level loss so the revivee can always kill and reincarnate himself over and over again until he gets the race he wants. Gets kinda expensive though. Still, it leads to some hilarious outcomes...

Wizard: Dang! Not half-orc again! Oh well, have your bear eat me and we can try agai-- *CHOMP*

Druid: Here we go again... Sigh... Fluffy is going to have a tummy-ache at this rate...

As for the nature deities issue, Limited Wish can probably get around it.

[Feytalist]

And here's where the obligatory mention of Green Star Adept goes. Regardless of the wonky class itself, I always imagine something like this as the only reasonable alternative to immortality than becoming undead.

Transferring your consciousness into (or becoming) a construct somehow, while perhaps not better mechanically, makes more sense for those squicked out by the undead.

Plus I like the idea of my character being an immortal green statue. That can heal itself, no less.