Succubus Consideration

[Major]

So, I was bored and looking at my various books, considering various concepts to try out and also reading Dragon Magazines to kill time at work. While looking at these I suddenly felt the desire to play a Succubus in game.

Now, Savage species presents a succubus class so that one could play it and over all it is pretty cool in my opinion. I like the idea and I have no problem working out ways to be useful out of combat, but what about in combat?

Due to the limited HD and the no armor, any hit would be bad, so I was thinking perhaps a bow? But what other options are there in combat for a succubus class? Because its a monster class you only get what it gives you other than feats and such. So I'm limited to feats and simple+martial weapon proficiency to be good. What would you guys recommend if I go this route?

Then upon passing level 12 I could start taking regular classes. With only 8 levels, what would be a good class for something with a ridiculous charisma?


On a side note, due to the Mark of Cania thread I figured that could be amusing to be super useful outside combat at the cost of being cheesy, but once again...inside combat I'd have -infinity to AC.

[gbprime]

I did a build like this for fun. Levels 13-15 you get Marshall. Motivate Charisma allows you to double-dip that awesome CHA bonus for astronomical social skills, as well as harness your CHA bonus to damage for all your allies flanking damage! Levels 16-20 you use Mindspy for some much needed BAB and to expand your mind reading capabilities.

Feats are important. Your 1st levle feat should usually be Light Armor Proficiency for survivability. After you pick up Charm Monster, you want Combat Charm (Dragon Mag Compendium) which allows you to ignore the DC penalty to charming someone that you and your allies are being violent against. Life Drain (Libris Mortis) is the feat to get after you pick up Energy Drain, as it adds your CHA bonus to damage done. (So instead of doing 5 HP damage and receiving 5 temp HP, you could be doing/receiving 16-20 instead!)

[Major]

And what kind of weapons should I start with? Should I hide in the back and use a bow? Or actually use my claws?

That Marshal idea is ridiculously brilliant.

Mindspy I don't know as well, but sounds good.

Combat charm sounds disgustingly useful and also very fitting :)

Life drain also seems ridiculously useful.

Edit: Would a Battle Dancer dip be useful? That would crazy boost my AC.
Edit2: Upon looking at Mindspy it doesn't seem that great? Am I missing something?

[hivedragon]

I'll just leave this here
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7951939&postcount=29

[Major]

*glances at the new one*

It's useful, though with it being homebrew it'd be a bit trickier to get allowed. That and your charisma ends up being worse (but then again you almost twice as many extra levels)

It's not bad. I'll make a note of that in the rare case it is allowed.

[The_Snark]

Speaking from experience, I've found that at level 12 I've found that a succubus actually makes for a pretty competent PC. Sky-high Charisma, charm magic, Change Shape, telepathy/Mindsight, ethereal jaunt, and greater teleport make you a pretty excellent scout, infiltrator, and face. Combat isn't your strength, but you have decent defenses (solid DR and a nice natural armor bonus on top of whatever your wealth-by-level gives you), and throwing high-DC suggestions around is not a bad tactic.

I suspect it falls behind a bit as you level up, since there isn't really a class that builds directly on those abilities, but they're still handy. I'm not sure how the monster class plays at lower levels; relying on 3/day abilities strikes me as a bit iffy, but I suppose it's not too different from playing a low-level spellcaster.

Anything that makes use of your Charisma modifier is helpful: paladin/blackguard/hexblade, the feats Snowflake Wardance (requires bardic music) and Divine Might (requires turn/rebuke undead), probably others I'm not thinking of. Spellcasting is the obvious choice, but unfortunately being twelve levels behind is a big handicap; your save DCs will be average or maybe even a little above, but you'll be forced to rely on low-level spells and your endurance won't be very good for the first few levels.

If you want to make good use of your energy drain ability, try to pick up a necrotic focus weapon (Magic Item Compendium) so that you can drain levels with melee weapon attacks, rather than having to rely on trickery and grappling. Very nice when combined with feats like Life Drain and Spell Drain.

Also, Mark of Cania is not easily available to succubi; they're demons, not devils. You're an outsider and I suppose you could change alignment to lawful evil, but fluffwise I think a mortal would have an easier time.

[Major]

Thank you by the way, I couldn't recall what Succubi were. Demons, not devils.

Eh, no worries, that was mostly to troll and if my DM lets me play one I don't think it'd be nice to pull that cheese.

Glad it works as a playable class since I've never played one.

Oh Paladin Succubus that could be amusing. (Based on the campaign my DM would probably let me play a redeemed Succubus, but its still an amusing concept)

Hexblade I honestly don't know very well.

I didn't want to do spellcasting due to 12 levels behind. That's not really able to be dealt with easily. I figured I'd settle for martial and just use my spell like abilities. Thus why I think Marshal, Battle Dancer, etc might be useful.

Mindspy was suggested but I'm confused why that'd be useful.

Question about the necrotic weapon focus, if I did an unarmed strike would I be able to do the negative level? I'm away from book right now so not sure the specifics behind the ability.

I know life drain since it was mentioned, what is spell drain?

[The_Snark]

Oh Paladin Succubus that could be amusing. (Based on the campaign my DM would probably let me play a redeemed Succubus, but its still an amusing concept)

Hexblade I honestly don't know very well.

There's also these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) paladin variants if you don't want to be redeemed... though paladins of slaughter will have trouble with many parties, so redeemed may be a good idea.

Paladin's not a bad choice for a succubus. Divine Grace is excellent, you'll get a lot out of your smite attacks, and the turn/rebuke ability opens up the Divine Might feat (Complete Divine).

I only mentioned Hexblade because they get an ability vaguely similar to Divine Grace; I've never tried to play one myself.


Mindspy was suggested but I'm confused why that'd be useful.

I think it was suggested because they get to apply their Charisma to attacks and AC if they can read someone's thoughts, but the bonus is capped by class level (+5 at most) and it only works if the enemy fails a Will save... in which case, you could have used suggestion or charm monster instead and ended the fight. I kind of like the class, but it's not all that powerful.


Question about the necrotic weapon focus, if I did an unarmed strike would I be able to do the negative level? I'm away from book right now so not sure the specifics behind the ability.

Necrotic Focus is a melee weapon enchantment (equivalent to a +3 bonus), so it's not normally usable with an unarmed strike- though you could put it on a necklace of natural attacks if you want to drain via unarmed strikes or claw attacks. (Bear in mind that you'll have to pay double the price if you want it to be able to apply to both claw attacks.)


I know life drain since it was mentioned, what is spell drain?

It's another feat from Libris Mortis; essentially, whenever you use energy drain on a spellcaster, you get to steal the spell they would normally lose. Situationally useful and not as easy to get as Life Drain, but potentially rather neat.

[Major]

With Spell Drain can I cast the spell no matter what or do I have to be able to cast that spell?

Honestly I've DM'd for Paladins but never tried one so it could be fun. I'll look at it. What about Battle Dancer dip for Cha to AC?

Well what I meant was do I need that weapon enhancement to do the negative energy drain? I assume the succubus monster class has to kiss like the Monster Manuel version, but it doesn't specify, thus why I wanted to check.

So I either have to grapple or get that weapon enhancement?

[The_Snark]

With Spell Drain can I cast the spell no matter what or do I have to be able to cast that spell?

Yep, you can cast it (using the original owner's caster level and save DCs). There's a limit to how many spells you can keep stolen at the same time, though, and they go away after an hour if you don't cast them.


Honestly I've DM'd for Paladins but never tried one so it could be fun. I'll look at it. What about Battle Dancer dip for Cha to AC?

Er, sure? I don't know the Battle Dancer class at all, but Charisma to AC sounds like a pretty good deal to me.


Well what I meant was do I need that weapon enhancement to do the negative energy drain? I assume the succubus monster class has to kiss like the Monster Manuel version, but it doesn't specify, thus why I wanted to check.

So I either have to grapple or get that weapon enhancement?

Precisely. And yes, I'd assume that the succubus monster class gets the same version of energy drain that the Monster Manual succubus does. The fully-leveled monster is supposed to be identical to the Monster Manual creature used as a race; the only differences are due to the edition change.

[Major]

So I either kiss, grapple, or have that weapon ability. That's good to know. Now then, if I didn't have that weapon ability would improved grapple be a good choice?

I'll admit I don't know grapple rules very well. Would it be best to try a grapple build or pick a weapon to use and add that. (And what weapon?)

Obviously I'll want Charisma as my highest, but what other stats would be good?

In regards to battle dancer its the exact same as the monk but with Cha instead of Wisdom. Even down to the at X level gain +1. But even a one level dip would mean unarmored (which I am unless I take a class with armor proficiency) I would add my cha to AC.

With only a few levels of Paladin, I'd be a bit limited wouldn't I? Divine might would also require power attack so that'd be two feats. Divine Grace seems to be the main gain.

[Flickerdart]

Paladin of Slaughter is a great dip for that CHA to saves, and there's an ACF somewhere to make that CHA to AC instead (as if you needed more AC). CHA is the easiest stat to add to stuff, too, so grab some Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows if you want to mix it up in melee a bit.

[Major]

You've been swordsage'd quite a bit :P

But I'm thinking of playing a redeemed succubus using the redeemed rule set.

The question is more "Paladin of freedom" vs "Regular Paladin".

I'm thinking at the moment

Succubus 12 / Battledancer 1 / Paladin 2 / X

With maybe a level or so of marshal.

Edit: cuz post above was edited.

[Godskook]

Swordsage+Arcanist+Ascetic Mage is another way to pick up Cha to AC, assuming you want any amount of caster in your build.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The Ascetic Mage combo is a nice idea, but basically speaks for your last 8 levels. Not that Tome of Battle is a bad thing, mind you!:smalltongue:

That said, I do support the Marshal dip. If you can swing being a part of the 0%<X<1% of Succubi who are not CE, then I'd either go Paladin of Slaughter (For the Mark of Cania, since I believe you must be a devil for that, which case, you could use a reformed succubus a la either Wee Jus' story or a similar LN/LE deity) or, assuming your deity rolls with you being LE without problem, then you're already set.:smalltongue:

If for whatever reason Slaughter isn't allowed, just go regular Paladin and be LG (actual alignment) and CE(by subtype)!:smallbiggrin:

[gbprime]

I was going with Mindspy because of the bump it gives to Detect Thoughts and the effective double-dip in BAB and hit bonus. Combined with a Necrotic Weapon and Life Drain, you have some actual melee potential at the end of the character build.

Battle Dancer is also cool, and perhaps you could spare a level of Mindspy for it since the CHA to AC bonuses STACK. (the Mindspy bonus is untyped, per the wording in the text.)

Don't skimp on the Marshall levels, though. You need 3 levels to get both Motivate Charisma and Master of Tactics, which you switch depending on whether you're in combat or not.

And don't forget to scrounge up a pair of Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon 314, page 22, adds fire damage equal to CHA bonus to all melee and touch attacks).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I was going with Mindspy because of the bump it gives to Detect Thoughts and the effective double-dip in BAB and hit bonus. Combined with a Necrotic Weapon and Life Drain, you have some actual melee potential at the end of the character build.

Battle Dancer is also cool, and perhaps you could spare a level of Mindspy for it since the CHA to AC bonuses STACK. (the Mindspy bonus is untyped, per the wording in the text.)

Don't skimp on the Marshall levels, though. You need 3 levels to get both Motivate Charisma and Master of Tactics, which you switch depending on whether you're in combat or not.

And don't forget to scrounge up a pair of Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon 314, page 22, adds fire damage equal to CHA bonus to all melee and touch attacks).

Oh, yeah, you certainly want all of that CHA to everything. For a very different route, you may also be able to dip Bard, throw all skill points ever into Sublime Chord, and still finish most of it pre-epic. If considering for epic level play, I would certainly do this because of all of the awesome 4< level spells the sorcerers and/or wizards have. Otherwise, if going from level 1 up to parts unknown, I would instead do something else, definitely getting that marshal dip, then probably going into something that gets you CHA to AC again. Mindspy is attractive, but I honestly prefer Paladin 2 for CHA to all saves. Not that that excludes some Paladin-hoods if you do go Mindspy, mind you.:smalltongue:

[CTrees]

(talk of redeemed succubi)

http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/pc/planescape/images/characters/grace.jpg

Just sayin', I support this idea.

[Major]

I was going with Mindspy because of the bump it gives to Detect Thoughts and the effective double-dip in BAB and hit bonus. Combined with a Necrotic Weapon and Life Drain, you have some actual melee potential at the end of the character build.

Battle Dancer is also cool, and perhaps you could spare a level of Mindspy for it since the CHA to AC bonuses STACK. (the Mindspy bonus is untyped, per the wording in the text.)

Don't skimp on the Marshall levels, though. You need 3 levels to get both Motivate Charisma and Master of Tactics, which you switch depending on whether you're in combat or not.

And don't forget to scrounge up a pair of Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon 314, page 22, adds fire damage equal to CHA bonus to all melee and touch attacks).

I saw the Mindspy thing, but the problem is it has a cap of your mindspy levels. So even if I got all 5 levels it'd only be +5 AC and +5 attack. Not horrible, but there seem to be better options.

The three levels of Marshal I'm definitely considering. Even if I only go one level that's still CHA to flanking and even without motivate charisma I still have crazy social skills. (Actually...motivate charisma would make bluff and intimidate ridiculously useful... hmmmm)

I do want to play a Redeemed Succubus, just saying. They had a similar one in a Dungeon Magazine I can't recall which. A paladin lover basically turned her good and she then went against her former masters. Due to alternate form, my character could hide her nature also...

Anyways at the moment I'm thinking
"Succubus 12 / Battle Dancer 1 / Paladin 2 / Marshal 1 or 3"

Unless someone points out better ideas (or at the very least why I'm mistaken about mindspy. Not saying its not useful, but it doesn't seem super useful...a small boost based on levels and a bigger detect thoughts?)

[gbprime]

I saw the Mindspy thing, but the problem is it has a cap of your mindspy levels. So even if I got all 5 levels it'd only be +5 AC and +5 attack. Not horrible, but there seem to be better options.

You're definately not short on options. I was just approaching it from finishing the Succubus progression and having 3 levels of marshall... and you're 15th level with a BAB of 8. Mindspy picks up +10 to hit in 5 levels (ending with BAB 13) and advances the usefulness of Detect Thoughts. But it's not for everyone, to be sure.

And I wasn't overly concerned with +CHA to AC, since by that point a +3 Mithril Breastplate is adding +8 AC. Good enough for someone with a BAB of 8! Battledancer plus Bracers of Armor would be superior, though, and would let you retrain Light Armor Proficiency (if you picked it at 1st level).

[ffone]

Google 'x stat to y bonus', person_man's amazing list for stat synergy. As someone said, Cha he the most stuff.

[Major]

I've looked at the X to Y, sadly most the things that help don't work too well. I already had the Paladin and Battle Dancer idea. Most PrCs got icky pre-reqs, don't mix with alignment or other ways.

Good point about the BAB though...

I'll want something that gets Cha to hit consistently. I've figured out how to tank and how to out of combat help. Being useful with regular attacks is the problem. ESPECIALLY if I want to actually be able to hit with my drain attack.

Other than the +3 weapon enhancement to let me drain through my weapon the only way to do the drain is with a grapple right?

[Amnestic]

Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) gives charisma to attack rolls. Need to spend a Bardic Music usage and have Perform (dance) 6 to get it. Lasts for a number of rounds equal to your perform ranks. Requires a one-handed slashing weapon too.

Slippers of Battledancing (DMG2) swaps in your Cha Modifier (instead of Str/Dex) to attack rolls (and damage rolls) if you move at least 10' as part of a move action and use a one-handed or light weapon.

[Major]

Snowflake would require an extra dip and even then be rough due to lack of skill points.

Slippers might work...what's the cost? Moving 10ft is a pain, but possible.

Edit: Perhaps a permanent item of Thunder Lance or Whirling Blade. I'd have to look both up.

Both suck.

[Dimers]

Given a succubus's polymorph ability, Warshaper might not be a bad way to go. It doesn't take advantage of Cha, but it's got free healing, crit immunity, +4 Str and Con, and an extra 5' reach. Not bad for 4 levels. And of course you gain physical stats for whatever you polymorph into ... say, a bugbear weretiger, for instance ... before applying the bonus Str and Con.

[Major]

It's not a bad idea except that one would only get those bonuses while polymorphed...on a side note, does the Succubus alternate form cause them to lose anything?

How does their alternate form work exactly? That alone could possibly make Warshaper useful. Not sure it is where I want to go, but its a possibility.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You technically (through RAW silly-ness) qualify for the Fiend of X, particularly Possession for the cost of 1-5 or 1-10 level in a prestige. The the idea of a redeemed lover, that is enticing as you are weighing the very soul of that character (LG vs CE) versus just straight up demon worship.


As for the previously mentioned LG Paladin Succubus, the idea probably originates from 2E, especially Torment, but the 3.5 stats are most certainly on the WotC website (somewhere in that dark Labyrinth).